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#1 Apr 20 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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i dont know about you guys, but i absolutely loved XI's crafting system, how you had to put in all the effort and time to become a "master" crafter and make the best items.

I'm hoping XIV keeps this system, if not speeds it up a slight ammount (even I with my love of crafting got annoyed when i'd craft and go 2 hours without even a .1 skill up)

But i'm gonna be rather upset if it's ez-crafting like World of warcraft :<



What craft will you be picking up in XIV?
I think i'm going to make my Dunesfolk Lalafell take up Tanning :)
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#2 Apr 20 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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I agree! I really liked that crafting involved knowledge of the calendar, and the elements. I thoroughly enjoyed it in FFXI, and I hope some of those elements remain the same in FFXIV.

#3 Apr 20 2010 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Before anyone comes along and is rude about it, I'll kindly point out that I'm pretty sure there are already a bunch of topics on farming for FFXIV.


Now that that's out of the way... My shader Elezen (as long as the pale skin is NOT required) will be trying his hand in alchemy.
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#4 Apr 20 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Good
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No offence to anyone who enjoyed FFXI's crafting system... but it was one of the most ridiculous I've ever dealt with. Not only did it take forever to level up, to have a mere chance of making any money, you had to have extensive knowledge of the elements, directions, days etc. To get your craft to a place where you COULD make money, you also need a copious amount of free time to farm and/or a large sum of capital to invest in wasted crafting items that you only had a chance of getting a skill up on. These items vendored for next to nothing or took forever to unload on the AH. Not to mention the stupid 1% fail chance mechanic for even those crafters who were 100+3.

I don't want to see a crafting system as easy as WoW's... but something that a) doesn't break some or all of your materials when you fail, b) has "leveling up" items that would at least break you even for some of your skilling up and c) doesn't require an astrologer, a physicist, and a witch doctor to make money would be nice.

I'm going to be waiting to see the mechanics for crafting before deciding anything.

#5 Apr 20 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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Almost every game's crafting system i know is; select material and click start. I wish the crafting system is hard enough on skill and knowledge rather den wallet and time.

1) Some sort of minigame/control while crafting.
2) Have some risk involve.
3) Skilling up requires some kind of cost
4) Require knowledge to perform better.

I think im going to try out needleworks

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#6 Apr 20 2010 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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I had suggested a while back that a crafting system like Puzzle Quest used would work out well. It was a gem matching mini-game. Easy items could be made in seconds, while the more difficult ones were an intense 10 or so mins.

I do agree with dalm, losing items on a failed craft sucks. But I guess there needs to be some penalty.

As to why the re-sale prices on craft leveling items was terrible... Well, I could only guess it's cause everyone who is crafting is trying to resell them. Too much supply, no demand. The answer to this would be to have them sell for a better price to NPCs. Not anything to make you rich, but at least enough to let you break out even.
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#7 Apr 21 2010 at 6:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've never been big on crafting because quite frankly, I always found it boring. One game I actually did enjoy crafting in was Vanguard. It wasn't a click start and wait to finish. You had different stages of the creation process and had to take an active role in countering certain hangups along the way. You had to choose if you wanted to increase the quality of an item or the progression of the creation. You had to balance things and pay attention. As you grew in skill, you gained more options. Along with that, there were stats specific to crafting that you could increase by leveling and gear.

Like anything else crafting related, I still was too impatient to get far. But I think that Vanguard was the closest to getting me hooked :)

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#8 Apr 21 2010 at 6:21 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I really liked that crafting involved knowledge of the calendar, and the elements.



dalm wrote:
you had to have extensive knowledge of the elements, directions, days etc.


Call me crazy, but I recall somebody in here saying that the effectiveness of crafting on particular element days was completely fabricated. Apparently everybody was basing this idea off of one crafting guide which referenced a series of tests on the crafting conditions, all of which were falsified.
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#9 Apr 21 2010 at 6:29 AM Rating: Good
EQ2 had a fairly fun crafting system, you had to react to 'events' with crafting skills they gave you. I dunno if that's the best way of doing it, but it's certainly better than having to time your crafts to certain days of the week and/or moon cycles.

Let people craft when they want to craft, let people craft in the field, and throw the fist of an angry god at people botting.
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#10 Apr 21 2010 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Call me crazy, but I recall somebody in here saying that the effectiveness of crafting on particular element days was completely fabricated. Apparently everybody was basing this idea off of one crafting guide which referenced a series of tests on the crafting conditions, all of which were falsified.


It's not that it's false, it's just never been stated by SE whether or not it was true. Some ppl swear by it, others think it's garbage. A lot of ppl went with it cuz it wasn't much of a hassle to abide by some elemental rules to increase your profits.

As for crafting in XIV, they have already mentioned crafting guildleves and crafting specific skills. I'm super excited about it. I would be even more rdy to soil myself if there was some type of minigame involved. One thing about the minigames though is that they are most likely easily botted. I'm pretty poor at setting up scripts but with the right tools I think even I could build a bot to beat a simple concept minigame.
#11 Apr 21 2010 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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I do agree with dalm, losing items on a failed craft sucks. But I guess there needs to be some penalty.


Why? Why do people insist on being arbitrarily punished for something beyond our control? I can see no purpose to being punished with a loss of items just because the random number generator decided I should. Are you a *********? Do you enjoy it when a game punishes you for no good reason?

Back in FFXI when divine logs were 4 million gil each, a friend of mine saved up enough to buy 2 of em to make a Shura Togi. I'd gotten my crafts up to the necessary level to make it a week before, and he asked me to synth it for him. After synthing both logs into lumber, I attempted my very first Shura Togi synth... and it blew up and I lost both peices of divine lumber. 8 million down the drain in seconds. The only reason he didn't quit the game was because his friends chipped in to buy him two more logs, and he wouldn't let me synth a togi for him again.

I see no reason why that should have been able to happen. Any feature in a game that makes people want to quit is a bad feature.

And seriously, why did I have a 1% chance as a 100+3 woodworker to mess up making arrowwood lumber? I may as well critically fail putting on my shoes and fall on my face because of tying the laces together 3 times a year.

And finally, however they do the crafting system... please PLEASE give us a 'craft all' button. I can think of few more useless wastes of time than having to put an arrowhead, a fletching, and a peice of lumber inside a little box 99 @#%@^!$ times! It shouldn't take over an hour to craft up a stack of ingredients.
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#12 Apr 21 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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Xanfien wrote:
And finally, however they do the crafting system... please PLEASE give us a 'craft all' button. I can think of few more useless wastes of time than having to put an arrowhead, a fletching, and a peice of lumber inside a little box 99 @#%@^!$ times! It shouldn't take over an hour to craft up a stack of ingredients.

QFT

Smithing was my craft of choice in FFXI, and it irked me every time I had to make something as simple as an ingot. At least getting the key items for making chains and sheets helped a little bit.
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#13 Apr 21 2010 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Why? Why do people insist on being arbitrarily punished for something beyond our control? I can see no purpose to being punished with a loss of items just because the random number generator decided I should. Are you a *********? Do you enjoy it when a game punishes you for no good reason?


I'm not so sure I liked the "Crystal shatters you lose everything" penalty. But I think some kind of failure should be involved or else crafting becomes no more complex than buying. A Penalty adds the element of emotional attachment thereby increasing the joy of victory or agony of defeat. Granted, I would rather have a mini-game in control of failure than a random number generator. I'd also much prefer an actual crafting system rather than a click here and come back in 10 minutes system. I'm hoping 14 has some kind of a happy medium. I'm not sure how the new crafting system will work but I hope it has some kind of penalty. I don't want to lose 10mil because of an angry number generator, but I don't want to feel like crafting isn't really part of the game because all I have to do is say "Craft all" and be done with it. A mini game of some sort, that didn't kill you like EQ2's crafting game, but that did levy some kind of penalty if you failed is fine by me. I feel that Crafting should be a rewarding layer within the game, not a 1 minute pause in any town.
#14 Apr 21 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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Elmyrsun wrote:
I don't want to lose 10mil because of an angry number generator

I found that so amusing, I stole it for my sig. :D
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#15 Apr 21 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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I agree, as Elmyrsun suggests, that a penalty for failure if there were a mini-game or some other test of skill involved would make sense. I'm not against penalties in games, that's part of what makes them fun. It's just the arbitrary ones I see no point to.

And if there is a mini-game, obviously a craft all button would be difficult to implement, but if that's the case, then on stuff like ammo or common ingredients, let a large amount be done at once (ie: 20 peices of lumber to make 1000 arrows in 1 shot or 50 peices of ore to make 100 ingots in one go)
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#16 Apr 21 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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If crafting uses MP, then there's a penalty for using it in the field - which would make the most sense. But losing expensive ingredients on a low-level recipe due to random chance is really frustrating and was probably one of the reasons for RMT.

I plan on being a Weaver, with a caster class when I do go levelling (which won't be often, I'll be partnering with someone and we have different work schedules), and would like to not have to stress out about losing things. Maybe if you fail, it creates a "flop" type item that you can vendor, or perhaps some other class can break down for ingredients, or there are recipes that use the flops? Maybe there's a recipe that has a chance to turn the flop into a decent item, but destroys it if it doesn't work? At least in those situations, there are penalties, but it does give you something out of failing.

I'm totally against mini-games for crafting, unless it's something like those bars in fishing games - where you have to click a button with a bit of skill. Most of the bar is "fail" territory, a good chuck is "success", and a tiny sliver is like +1. But perhaps the bar would look different every time so a mod/hack couldn't be implemented. Can't remember the game I'm thinking of that did this... might have been one of the newer Star Oceans or something? Don't remember. You get the idea.

Anywhoo, am at work and can't finish my thoughts without getting caught. >.>
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#17 Apr 21 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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What ever they do with crafting there still needs to be a certain amount of risk and reward. Otherwise it becomes mundane. Generally that was one of the greatest features of FFXI, the whole balance of trying to do something hard and having the possibility of failure but if you succeeded the reward was worth it.
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#18 Apr 21 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I leveled bonecraft in FFXI, but this time I'm going to take blacksmithing!
#19 Apr 21 2010 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
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Crafting in XI and WoW both made me want to install a tap in the side of my head so the grey matter would have an easier way to get out than through my ears. :P

I'm hoping for a more interesting and interactive system like what they had in Vanguard, just personal prefferance though.

Edited, Apr 21st 2010 8:20pm by zurinadrg
#20 Apr 21 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Why? Why do people insist on being arbitrarily punished for something beyond our control? I can see no purpose to being punished with a loss of items just because the random number generator decided I should. Are you a *********? Do you enjoy it when a game punishes you for no good reason?


If there is no consequence then it becomes a given, and there is no pride in doing it. If there is nothing to lose and you fail then you're just going to do it again. Like someone else said, It makes it the same as buying things. I'm not for the fail and lose everything either punishment either, but maybe if you fail then the chance of another failure increases until a certain cool-down period passes? Almost like a crafting version of a weakened state from death in battle?


Quote:
Back in FFXI when divine logs were 4 million gil each, a friend of mine saved up enough to buy 2 of em to make a Shura Togi. I'd gotten my crafts up to the necessary level to make it a week before, and he asked me to synth it for him. After synthing both logs into lumber, I attempted my very first Shura Togi synth... and it blew up and I lost both peices of divine lumber. 8 million down the drain in seconds. The only reason he didn't quit the game was because his friends chipped in to buy him two more logs, and he wouldn't let me synth a togi for him again.

I see no reason why that should have been able to happen. Any feature in a game that makes people want to quit is a bad feature.


I'm sorry for things like that, and you are correct, anything that makes you want to quit the game is bad. But, it still created a lasting memory for you. Good or bad, it's there.

Quote:
And seriously, why did I have a 1% chance as a 100+3 woodworker to mess up making arrowwood lumber? I may as well critically fail putting on my shoes and fall on my face because of tying the laces together 3 times a year.

You make an excellent point! Tying your shoes is something that you are most likely very practiced at... but there are days that for a number of any different reasons they may become untied.....

Quote:
And finally, however they do the crafting system... please PLEASE give us a 'craft all' button. I can think of few more useless wastes of time than having to put an arrowhead, a fletching, and a peice of lumber inside a little box 99 @#%@^!$ times! It shouldn't take over an hour to craft up a stack of ingredients.

This is something I've heard time and time again would help an incredible amount. If I do get into crafting, I hope it's there also.
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#21 Apr 21 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
I hated crafting in FFXI and WoW (got to ~max craft in both), unless crafting works out extremely different I'd rather be a hunter/gatherer. It has been much more profitable in my experience.

sidenote: text book economics don't hardly ever work out in real life due to violations of their primary assumptions, and certainly don't work in game economies with artificial limitations.
Sleepymagi wrote:
Almost every game's crafting system i know is; select material and click start. I wish the crafting system is hard enough on skill and knowledge rather den wallet and time.

1) Some sort of minigame/control while crafting.
2) Have some risk involve.
3) Skilling up requires some kind of cost
4) Require knowledge to perform better.

I think im going to try out needleworks

Regards
Sleepymagi
Star Wars Galaxies used to have (not sure if they kept it after they ruined the rest of the game) an awesome crafting system where you would have so many "points" (amount based on your skill) to allocate into different areas of whatever you were making which would effect your odds of getting levels of "HQ" in certain areas. Every piece was auto signed (meaning you could look out and develop preferences for weapons/gear made by certain individuals) and there was near unlimited ability to sell as many items at once as possible. I feel this worked out great combined with durable weapons, fairly cheap materials, and relatively high availability of money. Crafting economics requires careful balance though to prevent 1) people from going broke repairing/replacing 2) prevent market from being saturated w/ only a few items 3) NPCs becoming worthless (either too high or too low, NPCs should act as price regulators to provide viable options to the open market without stifling it) 4) AH manipulation abuse 5) rampant inflation or 6) inability to make a profit (generally because the perceived gain is less than the perceived worth farming/crafting the ingredients or stupid "lowest bidder wins" system combined with certain crafters not knowing/caring about the cost to them and limited AH slots).
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#22 Apr 22 2010 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Xanfien wrote:
And finally, however they do the crafting system... please PLEASE give us a 'craft all' button. I can think of few more useless wastes of time than having to put an arrowhead, a fletching, and a peice of lumber inside a little box 99 @#%@^!$ times! It shouldn't take over an hour to craft up a stack of ingredients.
QFT

Smithing was my craft of choice in FFXI, and it irked me every time I had to make something as simple as an ingot. At least getting the key items for making chains and sheets helped a little bit.


Sorry but I could not disagree more....

The beauty of it is that anyone at all can sit and make stacks of velvet cloth (or w/e) and actually MAKE A PROFIT from it. As opposed to WoW where often the subcombines actually go for LESS than the cost of materials because it was too **** easy to hit the "create all" then go afk and come back with no effort whatsoever. Not to mention you can max out any craft in 1/2 a day with a relatively small amount of money.

Not saying FFXI was perfect but i LIKED IT because it was hard.
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#23 Apr 24 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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but i LIKED IT because it was hard.
That's what she said! sorry I couldn't stop myself


But seriously, I'm sure the idea that crafting actually involved effort was a drawing point for some if not many. I'm all for that idea, which is why I think there should be some type of mini-game or action involved. I just can't find myself agreeing with the idea that tediousness & high cost = said effort.
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#24 Apr 24 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
Timekill wrote:
Not saying FFXI was perfect but i LIKED IT because it was hard.


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#25 Apr 24 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But seriously, I'm sure the idea that crafting actually involved effort was a drawing point for some if not many. I'm all for that idea, which is why I think there should be some type of mini-game or action involved. I just can't find myself agreeing with the idea that tediousness & high cost = said effort.


I completely agree, high cost and tedious do not equal effort.
IMO the synthing system in XI wasn't even a crafting system, it was a production system for the market minigame. So many MMOs have more involved market games than they do crafting games that it makes me sad. If you want a good example of a crafting system then Vanguard is a fine starting point, A Tale in the Desert is another great place to look hehe.
#26 Apr 26 2010 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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Crafting in XI was too repetitive, costly and time consuming to be completely honest. I'm glad it looks as if SE has completely redone the system and have actually brought it into the light considering now they are actual classes.

Anyway with that being said I will be choosing Blackmsith because I think that craft will be most beneficial to me as a DoW, although I'm not settled on which yet. I'm also banking on the hopes that Blacksmiths will be able to repair durability on gear, making them extremely valuable.

As of right now I actually plan on starting the game as a Blacksmith and immediately working on lvling the class up and earning gil for when I start my DoW class. I think it's the best first step especially since the first few weeks of XIV are likely to be rough sailing as with any brand new MMO.
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#27 Apr 26 2010 at 8:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm one of the FFXI players that just could never get into crafting. I tried my hand at a few but never had enough gil to fund the leveling process, or enough time to farm the items necessary (if I did do that, I literally never would have had time to actually level and explore.)

What FFXIV needs, for me, is some sort of minigame attached to the process. I look at a game like Fable 2 and think "This is a great idea, but it just needs to be improved." Crafts in Fable 2 required skill and patience, but did not sacrifice simplicity and accessibility. The only problem is that it just wasn't fun enough, which is something FFXIV could work on. It doesn't have to be a big, complex game, but just make it something.

Like fishing in FFXI. The mini-game for fishing was a blast, IMO. It was extremely simple, and often somewhat difficult, but I had a heck of a lot of fun doing it, and could fish for hours at a time. That's what I want.

I think I'll stick with fishing and cooking in FFXIV. There should be some overlap there, and I like food a lot. :p
#28 Apr 27 2010 at 5:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Im agreeing with LestatXIV im gonna hopefully be running with a Crafter to start with and see how that goes but you never know we may not be able to start with them :) I will be definatly going alchemy route tho. I cant w8 im so xcited already lol ( how sad ;) )
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#29 Apr 27 2010 at 11:09 AM Rating: Decent
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I like the idea of using an interactive bar system so to speak, where a portion would be break/lose another smaller portion is a good synth or catch/harvest. i think it would work especially well with the fisher and miner, and it could remain somewhat complex at the same time in that different fish or monsters fished up would increase/decrease bar speed or the size of the areas on the bar, same for mining that different ores/stones being harded to harest or take more hits to harvest. i think i remeber reading an article on one of the FFXIV websites that talked about mining and that there was an action bar ill have to go back and see if i can find it and ill post the link, so maybe some ideas like this arent to far off. i'd like to think it would help with the RMT problem that FFXI had but im sure id would only be a matter of time before they firgued out a program that could do it

Edited, Apr 27th 2010 1:16pm by cyrusbane
#30 Apr 27 2010 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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Lubriderm the Hand wrote:
EQ2 had a fairly fun crafting system, you had to react to 'events' with crafting skills they gave you. I dunno if that's the best way of doing it, but it's certainly better than having to time your crafts to certain days of the week and/or moon cycles.

Let people craft when they want to craft, let people craft in the field, and throw the fist of an angry god at people botting.


I went full out crafting in EQ2 when it was released. I leveled alchemy on my cleric and it was almost as good as adventuring. Very active system and one in which I died a few times at the alchemy tables. **** I even liked the fact you had to go to a certain instanced craft house in a town to do anything. It was very unique and I would like something on par with that - otherwise I'll probably dabble here and there with crafting but only to kill a few minutes.

My only concern with crafting early on is the economic conundrum that always happens. One person starts crafting and dumps stuff on the AH at a price which fluctuates a ton in the first month or so. No one has a clue what price to put on gathered goods, what stuff is harder to come by in terms of mats, what synths/recipes are ~unpossible~ to get, etc. Its hard on the true crafters to spend their time and then guess at a sell point price only to see no one buy it. Meanwhile all the adventurers are in the field and have bypassed any level for the crafted armors/weapons, etc. Not sure how you fix the issue with leveling first > crafting later = success to make it more leveling = crafting = success. Good on anyone making crafting a priority... I hope it works out better than other games.
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#31 Apr 27 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why? Why do people insist on being arbitrarily punished for something beyond our control? I can see no purpose to being punished with a loss of items just because the random number generator decided I should. Are you a *********? Do you enjoy it when a game punishes you for no good reason?


FFXIV can do anything it wants to me
#32 Apr 27 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Default
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crafting on certain elemental wasn't falsified. my friend in a shell would almost HQ all the **** time he wanted to. he would say lightsday on new moon was best. in indulged into more information on when to HQ some leathercraft recipes. i came to the conclusion it was 21:00 on ice day, new moon. coincidentally. when i went to the leathercraft guild to craft and get my extra skill levels, a bunch of JP crafters would come out of nowhere and start crafting as well.
#33 Apr 27 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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on an off note, are they including crafting and harvesting classes in the alpha testing, because I've yet to see anything about them and what its like to play them as a main role?
#34 Apr 28 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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If you've seen the alpha crafting manual for this game you will know its nothing like FFXI's and frankly seems like its a lot of fun.
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#35 Apr 29 2010 at 6:07 AM Rating: Decent
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this link was posted on another site not sure if its on here yet or not but the bottom part of it discuss' a little bit how miner works, seems to be more interactive sounds pretty cool to me.

http://www.ff14news.com/2010/04/24/famitsu-information-about-gods-and-mining/
#36 Apr 29 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Hopefully the gathering system doesn't require too much persicion. I know my sis will be very into crafting but her hand eye cordination isn't exactly up to speed :P
#37 Apr 29 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Look at the current state of FFXI. Spend some time on FFXIAH and then cross reference sale prices with npc vendor prices. You will find that the only crafts that make any sort of regular profit are from consumables. Smithing, Goldsmithing, and every other primarily durable-based craft only makes money on an HQ and loses millions in the process of getting to the point where you can attempt to HQ. Is it really sensible, or a challenge, to farm millions of gil to allow you the opportunity to play the lottery on the HQ game? I don't believe it is.

Before the basic arguments come up, yes smithing and goldsmithing can make money on ingots at any level. Those are not durable goods, and only works because the economy is not efficient and people are still trying to level up crafts that are not profitable. Its the digital version of the mortgage crisis. Yes, if you farm your own materials you can make profit on any synth, but as has been pointed out in crafting thread after crafting thread, the money you make in that situation is from farming, not from crafting.
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