Forum Settings
       
1 2 3 Next »
This Forum is Read Only

Best gear only or need not apply.Follow

#102 May 03 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Decent
ascorbic wrote:
Now, I'm not saying there's no value to be gained in researching a challenging battle. As I'm sure you'd guess, we were up to our eyeballs in finding out anything we could about the next CoP fight each night after completing the previous one. But we didn't quit because they listed setup wasn't possible with the jobs we had available. It's the perception that there is one way to succeed, and that any other - or dare I say lesser - setup is a waste of time that I take issue with. I've had enough success in my playing days in leveling and missions to know such bull, well, is just that.


I never required specific jobs or setups when I cleared through CoP. I just required that people play at a reasonable level. I was still labeled as elitist when I refused to bring people on missions when they had demonstrated their incapacity to function as a team outside the "pull -> kill -> repeat" xp mindset. And that's my point...people toss around the term "elitist" altogether too easily. It's not even a discriptive term to them...it's their stock butthurt response to being rejected because they can't perform at a certain level for whatever reason...gear, skill, ADHD...doesn't matter. "You didn't let me join your group therefore you are elistist."

No, I didn't let you join my group because you demonstrated an inability to contribute, and I'm not on a charity mission.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
You're getting somewhat off track here, in my opinion. And even then I'll debate the accuracy of your point. I'm in no way arguing that a lack of knowledge is beneficial. I'm stating that becoming a slave to one setup artificially limits your options when it comes to advancing your goals. I've yet to encounter a single fight in my time on any of a half dozen MMOs that I truly believed was only accomplish-able with One Party setup and Exacting gear requirements. Instead of theorycrafters agonizing over the math of a battle, most gear crazed elitists simply copy and paste a setup and strategy they found on the web that had a couple successful runs. Some people would rather spend four hours in town shouting for help and rejecting what their source deems to be insufficient applicants. Others are happy to instead spend an hour trying a fight out with enthusiastic participants, succeed or fail. And you may be surprised to find how often a few clever gamers can succeed without ElitistJerks telling them they can first.


I'm not getting off track. It seems to me more like your view of elitism is scattered. Your'e referencing idiots and forgeting that people often get labeled as elistist because underachievers need a way to deflect their ineptitude. I could give a rat's *** what stupid people do or say. They need a group of overgeared people to do simple content? That's not elitism...that's badism. And playing at the level that I played at in my most recent MMO of choice and having the gear that most people would tend to drool over, their ridiculous requirements never restricted me in any way, shape, or form. I never responded to requests to fill roles in those kinds of groups for the exact same reason I've stated here: they're not indicating that they're awesome and want other awesome people to join them...they're indicating that they suck and need to be carried. Half the time, those outrageous requirements are things that the person assembling the grou pcan't even live up to themselves, but they have a skewed perception of their own ability to contribute and an equally skewed notion that if everyone else overgears the content it's guaranteed to be an easy run. So when you know that, all of a sudden you realize that "elitist" doesn't even apply, because you have to be elite to be an elitist. When the mouthy douchebag is demanding more than they can contribute themselves, they're not elite...they're an idiot. So label it properly..."You're an idiot. I hate idiots." Elitism has nothing to do with it.

I don't care what idiots do or say because stupid people do and say stupid things. I care that whiny little monkeys label anyone that rejects them for any reason as elitist. It's not my fault you're not that good, and my decision to pass you over for someone else wasn't personal. I'll give anyone a chance, and you have to be pretty bad for me to remember you long enough to refuse you admission to a group so if that's you and you're butthurt about it, your problem is in your mirror. Up your game and be a team player. That's all you need to do. Notice there's no mention of gear or optimal builds. It's an overall evaluation based on the outcome of a particular situation. But I've been labeled elitist more times than I can count. So the mouthy douchebags and the chronic underachievers who don't understand the concept of team play aren't so different after all...they're all idiots.

And then, having blown ALL of the smoke off of it, you realize it's not about gear, or skill, or elitists, or bads. It's about idiots, and they come in all different shapes and sizes. If you need to hate on a group of people, hate on the idiots. Everything else is a waste of time.
#103 May 03 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
**
296 posts
Quanta wrote:
You're right, that was elitist, and I apologize because I'm really trying to avoid it. However, you do give the impression of someone who was rejected from groups one too many times when you start calling people elitists or sheep.


Fair enough, though it bears mentioning that I didn't start off calling any individuals elitists, or sheep. I was referring to classes of people. And those terms and the types of people they refer to are well known in MMO circles.

Quanta wrote:
Quote:
Forced? On whom? As I mentioned in my earlier post, I meet lots of people, then spend my playtime with those who share my interests and play-philosophy. The thesis of this thread was that there is an overwhelming opinion that Sheep-like elitists tend to force builds and strategies on others. So now those who choose a different path are forcing things? I don't think you thought that one out.


From my perspective, a lot of the people who ***** about getting rejected from groups are the same people who run around with untested, unsubstantiated, and outright terrible setups and expect the group to simply deal with it. To these people, it's as if the other 4/5/9/17/24 people in the group aren't important.

Only problem with that line of thinking is that this is a team game. I'm not letting one individual's selfishness affect the entire group; ergo, I'm not going to bring that person if I think they'll only be dead weight. I'm not wrong in thinking this, and I'm certainly not elitist about it; I'm only elitist if I'm being a **** about it.


From my perspective, such prejudices can extend far beyond "outright terrible" setups. They often come from ignorant people who refuse to learn better. MNK in the early NA days was a rather frowned upon job, especially in certain level ranges. Not from any accurate information, in fact the reverse was true. Without parsers, many people favored Big Solo hits over lots of smaller hits. The concept of DoT was alien to them, so they did what they saw everyone else do: drop the Monk.

Today? Monks are now considered one of the better DDs in the game. Not because of many re-balancing patches to fix them, but because over time the people feeding the (sheep) party/LS leaders information learned better.

And BTW, elitism does not connote the demeanor of the person. Simply their own belief that they (or the group they are advocating) is innately superior to another. You can smile, say please, and thank you, and wish people well... and still be an elitist.


Quanta wrote:
Quote:
Current trends are what they are because of those with the desire and courage to challenge the previous trends. If everyone went to the strat guide everytime they found a new fight, there would have been no evolution in strategies over the years, and we know that isn't true. We also know by evolving philosophies on builds, gear, and strats that the Prevailing Wisdom is rarely the optimal setup.


Current trends are what they are because a bunch of math nerds in the community go and test the @#%^ out of everything whenever a new patch hits, while the rest of us wait for the results so that we can make informed decisions about how to gear and spec. Encounter strategies are also rarely set in stone because the makeup of each group, as well as the behavior of individual players, is going to be very different from those who posted the strategy. That's why any decent raid leader goes and researches a number of strategies; he wants to find something that will work for his group when they eventually get to the fight.


You're making your assumptions based on one MMO notorious for patches that constantly rebalance the classes and their abilities. Surely you know that other MMOs aren't nearly as quick to constantly redo classes. And what do we see from them? Do we see a more stable MMO sit on one strategy for leveling, or certain end game fights for years at a time? Nope. We see the players come up with new strategies all on their own. Furthermore, we see an even larger group of adventurers accomplishing the same end game fights elitists claimed they weren't viable for. These guys might not have found the quickest way to beat a beast, but they got the same prize for a couple minutes of extra work. Compare that to the extra time an elitist might spend turning down viable offers of help in favor of waiting for a "by the book" setup and I think they're doing just fine.

Is research beneficial? Certainly. And frankly, I'm not trying to say people shouldn't use whatever they want to make their minds up. But are such attitudes, builds, and strategies the One and Only way to make a fight or leveling party work? Of course not, and if you've been playing MMOs for long I'm sure you've seen examples firsthand already.


Quanta wrote:
The situation's never going to change, regardless of the audience, and regardless of the game. People will play the metagame whether you like it or not, which is where all of these problems are actually coming from. There will always be tier lists, and there will always be setups that are just plain better than others. For example, I play Frost PvE on my Mage because I enjoy the spec's playstyle. However, I'm not so deluded to think that Frost is just as good as Arcane, because I've researched it enough to know that it's not, and probably never will be. I play Frost for fun, and switch to Arcane when I need to get serious, because ultimately I'm there to help the group succeed.


No, the situation won't change, more because of the epeen crazy player base than you think, though. Believe it or not, Tier lists don't exist in all MMOs. In fact, you'll find very healthy debate on competing pieces of equipment that are years old. And sure, some setups are better, and some simply aren't viable. But those attitudes can change over time. Look at XI. Five years ago, who would have thought DRGs and MNKs would be sought after DDs and all DDs would be subbing NIN? There's nothing wrong with choosing your group as you see fit. Just like there's nothing wrong with me stating my opinion that denying a person a position in a group or raid because they just missed the cutoff on their GearScore addon according to some website is sad. People may want to believe that it's necessary for the good of the group.

Truth is, some people are too afraid of failure to know for themselves. They stopped being adventurers years ago, now they play MMOs like following the recipe for a cake. It's unfortunate and frustrating for the character that got snubbed, but it's even sadder to see people's playtime in an adventure driven fantasy land reduced to such mundane tasks. I mean, if they went and made a cake, at least they'd get something out of it...
#104 May 03 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Good
**
296 posts
@Aurelius:

Let's be clear:

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.


You can be a nice guy, and be an elitist. You can be be a jerk and be an elitist. I don't think "my view of elitism is scattered". I think you're attaching a negative connotation to a word that aptly describes the very situation this thread was made to discuss. And you don't have to be elite to be an elitist. You simply have to think like an elitist. Being elite would be a mark of distinction. Being an elitist is a state of mind. I've known elite members of certain classes over the years that are humble and kind people. I've known more than my fair share of elitists that couldn't be further from the elites of their class.


I understand the gist of your message aside from the above point, and I understand exactly where you're coming from. It's also been fun thinking about CoP again this evening. If XIV gives me an experience approaching that story and those fights, I'll be in heaven. Not exactly holding my breath but, you know... :P


Oh yeah, and ***** idiots. XD
#105 May 03 2010 at 1:14 AM Rating: Excellent
**
736 posts
To try to play the game heedless of learning it is stupid in an obvious way, to try to use the mechanics learned heedless of playing the game is stupid in a way much more subtle and profound.

If the attitude of Elitists really gets to a person, in such a way they feel it impedes your enjoyment of the game, it really is time to put it all into perspective.

Forum-goers are a minor fraction of the actual playerbase,
of that fraction there are sect of people that dedicate themselves to discovering and pushing the extents of the game mechanics, and of that fraction of a fraction there are small number of people who are inclined to be aggressive twits about the whole thing. Whatever moniker you want them to go by, ultimately these folks are an extreme minority. The weight of their judgments shouldn't weigh any heavier on you than the folks you actually see and interact with in your day to day gaming affairs.

A great deal of their pursuits are being done for fun.
They enjoy the process of reverse engineering, experimentation and discovery. The practical application of some of the more demanding upper echelon experiments are calculated on such a knife's edge they unravel completely the minute you put a fallible breathing human being behind the actual execution. There's a point where it's useful information and a point where it's just splitting hairs because that's what this demographic likes to do. It's unnecessarily stressing and not necessarily beneficial to take this mental ************ with the same kind of seriousness you would more fundamental mechanics.

That all said,
I have absolutely played games where the 'optimal' really was the only way to get something done, and they were miserable slogs. So I want to say mechanics might not be the alpha and omega, but they do at least create a minimum and maximum value your practical choice falls between. I also hope Squeenix is ready to make good on it's character customization tagline, because it takes a helluva' lot more than just throwing options in to make something like that happen.



Edited, May 3rd 2010 3:15am by Zemzelette
#106 May 03 2010 at 2:25 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
597 posts
ascorbic wrote:
From my perspective, such prejudices can extend far beyond "outright terrible" setups. They often come from ignorant people who refuse to learn better. MNK in the early NA days was a rather frowned upon job, especially in certain level ranges. Not from any accurate information, in fact the reverse was true. Without parsers, many people favored Big Solo hits over lots of smaller hits. The concept of DoT was alien to them, so they did what they saw everyone else do: drop the Monk.

Today? Monks are now considered one of the better DDs in the game. Not because of many re-balancing patches to fix them, but because over time the people feeding the (sheep) party/LS leaders information learned better.


You're right, that was a problem. However, I think it's unfair to call people sheep when all they had to go off of was anecdotal evidence and their own first-hand experiences. If every MNK I've ever invited to group has been terrible, why should I keep trying to bring them when there are other DPS about that I know from first-hand experience are more capable of doing the job? I'm only going to let myself get burned so many times before I stop holding my hand over an open flame.

Quote:
And BTW, elitism does not connote the demeanor of the person. Simply their own belief that they (or the group they are advocating) is innately superior to another. You can smile, say please, and thank you, and wish people well... and still be an elitist.


Perhaps, but what I see is a lot of times, people will throw out the elitist label because their buttersheep was denied a party invite. It's the MMO equivalent of hitting on a girl, getting rejected, then going around telling everybody that she's a ***** instead of taking it like a man and going somewhere else, or re-evaluating your strategy. The girl doesn't have to accept you. The group doesn't have to invite you. Do the adult thing and move on.

Quote:
You're making your assumptions based on one MMO notorious for patches that constantly rebalance the classes and their abilities. Surely you know that other MMOs aren't nearly as quick to constantly redo classes. And what do we see from them? Do we see a more stable MMO sit on one strategy for leveling, or certain end game fights for years at a time? Nope. We see the players come up with new strategies all on their own. Furthermore, we see an even larger group of adventurers accomplishing the same end game fights elitists claimed they weren't viable for. These guys might not have found the quickest way to beat a beast, but they got the same prize for a couple minutes of extra work. Compare that to the extra time an elitist might spend turning down viable offers of help in favor of waiting for a "by the book" setup and I think they're doing just fine.


No MMO is so rigid that only one method works, including FFXI. FFXI's problem, at least to me, is that the consequences of failure are too high to actually take the necessary risks to figure these things out.

Consider this: the worst thing to happen in WoW when you die is a loss of durability (which costs gold), a loss of consumables (which costs gold, or a small amount of time spent farming materials), a short jaunt back to your corpse (which costs time), and a loss of progress on the current boss (which also costs time). The consequences aren't too bad, so you just go in there and try again.

In FFXI's case, when you die, you lose exp (which costs time), a loss of consumables (which costs gil or a considerable amount of time spent farming materials), a long jaunt all the way back to the dungeon from your home point (unless you had wipe protection, which costs time to recover from weakness; otherwise, it's a considerable time cost, and probably gil because of oils and powders, just to get back to the dungeon), and a loss of progress on the current boss (which costs time, possibly a consumable, and even the boss itself if it's a world boss). The consequences are high, so a wipe can effectively end attempts for that day. Why should I risk the group's success so that you can go WAR/WHM?

Quote:
Is research beneficial? Certainly. And frankly, I'm not trying to say people shouldn't use whatever they want to make their minds up. But are such attitudes, builds, and strategies the One and Only way to make a fight or leveling party work? Of course not, and if you've been playing MMOs for long I'm sure you've seen examples firsthand already.


No, they're not, which is why good players use the information presented as a guide rather than a rigid set of rules to go by.

Quote:
No, the situation won't change, more because of the epeen crazy player base than you think, though. Believe it or not, Tier lists don't exist in all MMOs. In fact, you'll find very healthy debate on competing pieces of equipment that are years old.


I'm not referring to gear when I say "tier list", but referring to the concept in fighting games of separating characters into specific tiers based on ability; I was trying to indicate that I'm moving away from MMOs specifically and speaking more of competitive games in general.

Quote:
And sure, some setups are better, and some simply aren't viable. But those attitudes can change over time. Look at XI. Five years ago, who would have thought DRGs and MNKs would be sought after DDs and all DDs would be subbing NIN?


I'd say it's a predictable outcome since we know more now than we did when the game was new. Nobody knew, for instance, that polearms would have so many advantages against various enemies compared to other weapons, which is arguably what would make DRGs a desired DPS.

Quote:
There's nothing wrong with choosing your group as you see fit. Just like there's nothing wrong with me stating my opinion that denying a person a position in a group or raid because they just missed the cutoff on their GearScore addon according to some website is sad. People may want to believe that it's necessary for the good of the group.


And nobody who's any good is going to do that, especially since you can fake out GearScore by wearing pieces just for the sake of upping your score. A smart player will look at your Armory, or inspect you if you're near them, to determine whether you're actually geared enough to handle the content the group is going to attempt. And you do have to be geared properly, gemmed properly, enchanted properly, and specced properly for certain types of content. If my group's goal is to just run ICC10 and see how far we can get, then ilvl232 gear will work fine, and any spec should work fine too (unless it's something stupid like 0/0/71); if our goal is to down the Lich King though, you're going to need better gear before we can take you, probably a mix of ilvl245/251; if we're doing heroic modes, ilvl251 at least (unless it's Gunship, which is free epics), and maybe a more competitive spec. It's not because we're being elitist or because we don't like you or anything, it's because the difficulty of the content demands these things.

Quote:
Truth is, some people are too afraid of failure to know for themselves. They stopped being adventurers years ago, now they play MMOs like following the recipe for a cake. It's unfortunate and frustrating for the character that got snubbed, but it's even sadder to see people's playtime in an adventure driven fantasy land reduced to such mundane tasks. I mean, if they went and made a cake, at least they'd get something out of it...


It's more likely because of repeated failures that people have developed their ideas of how to do things. They've been in groups where everyone else is a buttersheep and try desperately to make things work, but find that they can't because some setups just don't work, no matter how hard you try. It's best to put SMN/WAR on hold until you can figure out how to make it work, and can find a group of friends brave enough to help you work out the kinks rather than get total strangers to go along with your ideas.

Zemzelette wrote:
I also hope Squeenix is ready to make good on it's character customization tagline, because it takes a helluva' lot more than just throwing options in to make something like that happen.


I'm hoping so, too. However, I don't think we're going to see anything too crazy, like Thaumaturge tanks or healing Puglists. I'm hoping that we can at least mix and match the various abilities and get some decent mileage out of them. For instances, Thaumaturges have an ability that reflects a portion of damage taken back to the target, which I think would be useful for tanking as passive enmity generation.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#107 May 03 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Default
ascorbic wrote:
@Aurelius:

Let's be clear:

e·lit·ism or é·lit·ism (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
1. The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.


And just to be clear, you have to actually be a part of one of those classes or groups in order to perceive yourself as superior to those who are not a part of it. Bads demanding ludicrous performance or gear can't be elitist, because they're a member of the elite. It's like someone on welfare demanding preferential treatment as a member of the financial upper class. Sorry, spud, even if rich people did deserve special treatment, you're not rich.


Quote:
Oh yeah, and ***** idiots. XD


I concur.
#108 May 06 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
828 posts
dunno if it's been said or not but i think if SE does things right they could pretty much eliminate cookie cutter setups or stuff like this combination or gtfo attitudes. and it'd be pretty simple to do. all you'd need is a much more evenly balanced beastiary across the world of ffxiv.

for example in ffxi almost everything was weak to ice or thunder thus for a blm it was burst2 freeze2 lol at all other elements. (i'm not a blm so i maybe wrong its just the trends i tend to see from people i play with) there was no sense in merriting the rest cos they'd never be usefull, i think if they really balance this well in 14 you may well get person a that specialises in ice elemental magic and sure he might be the cookie cutter and outperform person b on certain mobs/bosses. but against others his ice specialty might see him falling behind, where person b decided to specialise in the element of fire and now really outshines person a against other mob's and bosses.

then theres damage types for example once you hit the 50s its pretty much piercing damage or gtfo all the way to 75 theres little to nothing that blunt/slashing will outdo piercing weapons. so again if se really make the effort and balance the mobs/bosses out alot better again it will make it very difficult to have a cookie cutter way to gear or specialise which in itself should encourage a greater amount of flexibility and customization amoungst the palyer base.

then theres the simple 1handed or 2handed weapons, they really need to be more balanced though not strictly something thats beastiary related but still something to be addressed i feel. giving 1h a accuracy bonus over 2h but give 2h a attack bonus over 1h and add a greater degree of acc/eva accross the beastiary, make some mobs fast and elusive letting a quick 1h weapon really shine, but then make other mobs slow but tough making a 2h really shine, and other mobs magic shines.

so i for one am really hope they really make the effort to get things right a well balanced beastiary is pretty much the best way to allow the flexibility amoungst players that they seem to be aiming for. theres things i'd have loved to do in ffxi i thought nin/rng could be an amazing damage dealer but se totally failed with shurikans and throwing weapons in general. nin/thf was fun in the odd parties i got to use it. but for the most part my nin was like all other ninjas locked into a tanking role.

i think if they can get this balance right they'll be onto a winner as the biggest problem in ffxi was the heavy bias in mob types and weaknesses when 90% of the mobs you fight have the same weaknesses its easy to see why people have the general "its this or gtfo" attitude.
____________________________


1 2 3 Next »
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 20 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (20)