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Add ons for FFXIVFollow

#1 Apr 22 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I dont know if any of you guys play wow often but wow has thousands of player created add ons to do everything from customize your UI to assist with the auction house. With FFXIV being a newer generation of MMO than FFXI do you think players will be allowed to customize add ons as easily and freely as they are able to in WoW?
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#2 Apr 22 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
I believe I read somewhere they said they would not be allowing add-ons, but you can move everything on the base UI around.
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#3 Apr 22 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Hmm I guess im pretty ok with that, I use the standard UI in WoW and only use a couple of add ons to assist with Auction House functions and the stupid Gear Score add on that is pretty much required for any PUG raids.
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#4 Apr 22 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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I hope not. I Will be very happy if add-ons don't become the standard on 14. To me, using add-ons to increase performance in the game is kind of like using steroids to raise your batting average. And if someone makes a "Gear Score" add-on for 14 I will make it my goal to hunt down and exterminate the programmer responsible.
#5 Apr 22 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elmyrsun wrote:
I hope not. I Will be very happy if add-ons don't become the standard on 14. To me, using add-ons to increase performance in the game is kind of like using steroids to raise your batting average. And if someone makes a "Gear Score" add-on for 14 I will make it my goal to hunt down and exterminate the programmer responsible.

You have my sword.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2010 5:57pm by BluefirefIy
#6 Apr 22 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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I feel like add ons open more doors for RMT than they do for legitimate players.
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#7 Apr 22 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I also hope they keep add ons to a minimum. I dont want to be judged by not having a certain add on before I even have a chance to prove my abilities.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2010 6:14pm by UncleRuckusForLife
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#8 Apr 22 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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SE considers their products works of art, letting someone else modify it would be like letting someone modify the mona lisa to them.

Anyway, I'm all for add-ons if the developer doesn't offer enough customization in the UI department. I like having my UI just right.
#9 Apr 22 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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I get to say it again, "PS3 limitations". SE believes in an even platform arena, so if a plug-in can't be used in a PS3, it won't ever make it to the PC.

Edit: Yog is correct, too (regarding "works of art" statement)



Edited, Apr 22nd 2010 3:59pm by AngusX
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#10 Apr 22 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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It is very unlikely SE will allow user made add-ons for one reason: console. This game is coming out on PS3 (and possibly some day Xbox as well). If SE allowed user made add-ons these would only be made for PC players, and not for console players. As SE would like to keep this game equal for everyone, it is extremely unlikely they will allow add-ons. Most likely any add-ons will be more like windower in that it is not exactly allowed, but rather just ignored by SE.


AngusX beat me to the punch I guess :P

Edited, Apr 22nd 2010 6:19pm by manam
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#11 Apr 22 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Default
SE is slower to respond to player complaints than the playerbase (no windowed mode in vanilla FFXI was ridiculous), so I would prefer they allowed sanctioned add-ons like blizzard.
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To me, using add-ons to increase performance in the game is kind of like using steroids to raise your batting average.
Most add-ons don't do jack to gameplay, they just let you automate things that you can normally do but are tedious (ie. gear swaps, constantly checking recasts, timers) or increase your ability to make reasonable decisions.
Quote:
And if someone makes a "Gear Score" add-on for 14 I will make it my goal to hunt down and exterminate the programmer responsible.
You in no way need add-ons to evaluate whether certain players gear is better than others, you're just misdirecting your anger at something unrelated.
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I feel like add ons open more doors for RMT than they do for legitimate players.
Add-ons being illegal doesn't prevent RMT from using them (they do it regardless), it only really affects players.
Quote:
It is very unlikely SE will allow user made add-ons for one reason: console. This game is coming out on PS3 (and possibly some day Xbox as well). If SE allowed user made add-ons these would only be made for PC players, and not for console players.
Or you could just have a database of sanctioned add-ons and let PS3/360 users DL them too?

Edited, Apr 22nd 2010 6:23pm by shintasama
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#12 Apr 22 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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manam wrote:
It is very unlikely SE will allow user made add-ons for one reason: console. This game is coming out on PS3 (and possibly some day Xbox as well). If SE allowed user made add-ons these would only be made for PC players, and not for console players. As SE would like to keep this game equal for everyone, it is extremely unlikely they will allow add-ons. Most likely any add-ons will be more like windower in that it is not exactly allowed, but rather just ignored by SE.


AngusX beat me to the punch I guess :P

Edited, Apr 22nd 2010 6:19pm by manam


Great minds think alike? ;)
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#13 Apr 22 2010 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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AngusX wrote:
Great minds think alike? ;)


lol, so it would seem :P
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#14 Apr 22 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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Professor shintasama wrote:
Most add-ons don't do jack to gameplay, they just let you automate things that you can normally do but are tedious (ie. gear swaps, constantly checking recasts, timers) or increase your ability to make reasonable decisions.

Sounds like "increase performance" to me.

Professor shintasama wrote:
Or you could just have a database of sanctioned add-ons and let PS3/360 users DL them too?

I just can't see that happening.
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#15 Apr 22 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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One of the best features about WoW is the ability to use 3rd party addons. But I dont lump them all together.

The thing is, almost all mods did one of two things: either A - allowed you to customize the UI to suit your needs, which Shouldn't be a problem, and B - reported data that was already available within the game in a more useful, easier to analyze format.

Good Mod - Damage Parser - invaluable imo for maximizing your play. Bad part? If you suck everyone is going to know and call you out on it.. With such a mod you can learn how good someone is in a single party(or sometimes even 5 min in) vs. without it where you might need to play with a person many times to get a sense of how much they are contributing. I can see why they would disallow this though if only in an attempt to minimize the level of elitism.

Not so good Mod? - Threat monitors - in FFXI you have to mentally keep track of how close you were riding that hate line which I think is fine. In WoW you just watch your little bar and if it starts to get to the top, meaning you are about to pull hate, then you knew when to stop damaging for a bit and give time for the tank to catch up/get ahead.
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#16 Apr 22 2010 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Sounds like "increase performance" to me.


No more so than macroes. For all those who have the irrational fears of add ons, do you use macroes as well?

Edit: comma

Edited, Apr 22nd 2010 8:32pm by Caia
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#17 Apr 22 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
Caia wrote:
Quote:
Sounds like "increase performance" to me.


No more so than macroes. For all those who have the irrational fears of add ons, do you use macroes as well?


I wonder how many people trashing the concept of addons used the Windower for FFXI, to include things like scripting so that they could have more than the standard limit on the number of lines allowed for a macro. Or who use a parser in FFXI, or the distance plugin, or any of the other little doodads that the Windower offered.

As has already been stated, addons serve two purpose: to customize the visual aspects of the UI and/or to gather data that is already available to the player and convert it to a more useful form.

It's a pretty safe bet that there will be no user-made addons for FFXIV. If SE makes it, it's not an addon. It's a stock addition to the game that, at worst, can be toggled on or off. I don't see SE being all that enthusiastic about creating a developer toolkit for custom user addons that allows ports across all supported platforms, and if they can't provide support for addons in such a way as they are available to all players regardless of platform they can't provide support for addons at all. Addons can tend to change the way certain encounters need to be tuned. If SE supported addons for PC with no way for the addon developer to readily port to other supported platforms, it would give the PC players an enormous advantage which would mean content would likely end up either too easy for PC players or nearly impossible for console players.
#18 Apr 22 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Good
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It's a pretty safe bet that there will be no sanctioned user-made addons for FFXIV.
Somebody is going to do it, it's pretty inevitable. What it comes down to is how many people use it, and whether SE is going to start witch hunts over it. The better job SE does designing the game for maximal flexibility/usability/customization the less impact they will have. The reason Windower use was so rampant was because vanilla FFXI was ridiculously restrictive. There is no reason people shouldn't be able to surf the web/IM while playing or need go through three menus to find out how much time was left on an ability recast.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2010 9:14pm by shintasama
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#19 Apr 22 2010 at 7:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
As has already been stated, addons serve two purpose: to customize the visual aspects of the UI and/or to gather data that is already available to the player and convert it to a more useful form.


Agreed, but...

Aurelius wrote:
If SE supported addons for PC with no way for the addon developer to readily port to other supported platforms, it would give the PC players an enormous advantage which would mean content would likely end up either too easy for PC players or nearly impossible for console players.


...and this is partially a redundant statement, but it's my feelings that this doesn't just apply to multiple platform issues. AddOns in WoW have tipped the raiding & PvP scales to degrees where (for the most part) some AddOns are entirely considered required to participate, to a level in which some AddOns can "see" users who are not using them...allowing players a way to police AddOn usage.

AddOns are a preference tool, and WoW is an example of 3rd party developement of the extension platform growing slightly out of control. I fully support Data interpretation & usage, I do not support any macro-like or automation types...which is present in many of WoW's AddOns. Anything, regardless of platform differences, that gives a user of an AddOn any type of advantage over a non-user is, IMHO, unbalanced. AddOn usage should not allow players to have advantages over other users.

Keep in mind, that I'm speaking from the perspective of an AddOn author, since I developed multiple AddOns for WoW, one of which that's still going after quite a few years. I can agree with their use as information & aesthetic tools only...anything else I feel crosses a line.
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#20 Apr 22 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Default
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AddOns are a preference tool, and WoW is an example of 3rd party developement of the extension platform growing slightly out of control. I fully support Data interpretation & usage, I do not support any macro-like or automation types...which is present in many of WoW's AddOns. Anything, regardless of platform differences, that gives a user of an AddOn any type of advantage over a non-user is, IMHO, unbalanced. AddOn usage should not allow players to have advantages over other users.


And again, I bet you had no issue using macroes in FFXI. All macroes did in FFXI was to help you cast spells/use abilities. Unless you're able to tell me you'd prefer they got rid of them in FFXI, your argument is subjective.

WoW's addons don't fight mobs for you. They don't figure out what is best to do versus a certain mob. They don't automate that type of thing. Blizzard took great pains to eliminate that kind of thing when they made the language that the addons are written in. Moreover, if Blizzard found a hole, they plugged it.

If done correctly, any addons in FFXIV would be helpful but not damaging to the game. It can be done (as WoW has already shown).
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#21 Apr 23 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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I felt a lot of the add ons in wow were amazing. That being said they were tedious at times when they broke every patch day or when you had to update them all the time.
I still think they were a good addition to wow.
I quit wow sometime ago but I heard gear score has become a plague on wow, It makes me lol how a lot of the QQ is about needing an absurd GS to run heroics.... lol people were steam rolling those heroics in lvl 70 something blues and now some idiots are giving pple a hard time and expecting people with t9 or better to run them? lol

Im fine without most add ons though, but Im guessing the ps3 wont have a dd parser.. thats a shame. I did enjoy parsing my own damage , It was great for getting an idea for how gear upgrades were effecting your performance, and if you want to swap out some haste for more acc etc.
The WS macros were also a big deal to me.
Those add ons meant a lot because I wanted to squeeze all the damage out of my character that I could.

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#22 Apr 23 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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Just taking a stab at this from what i've read about WoW and high level raids is that the gear became so good that eventually garbage players w/ good gear could finish them relatively easy. So if GS has taken over WoW then I'm not surprised. To me it seems like the community has devolved to the point that ppl assume other players are garbage and are trying to buffer themselves by accepting high GS's.
Quote:
And again, I bet you had no issue using macroes in FFXI. All macroes did in FFXI was to help you cast spells/use abilities. Unless you're able to tell me you'd prefer they got rid of them in FFXI, your argument is subjective.

The difference between XI's macrobar and the macroes possible in the windower is that there were limits on the former and none on the latter.

Regular Macroes(inherent to XI)
-had ~5 lines
-only executed on players command

Windower Macroes
-infinite lines
-Could be executed by player or automatically based on certain events
-Faster than XI macroes
-If set up properly could fight for you

Third party botting programs
-Could fight and claim for the player
-Accepted and processed information before players without had the chance
-Automated running through zones
-Other such features ad nauseum

There is a difference between what is given and what is created. Limits need to be set if add-ons are allowed
#23 Apr 23 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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flukedrk the Shady wrote:
I believe I read somewhere they said they would not be allowing add-ons, but you can move everything on the base UI around.


I remember reading this also, I think it was one of those tranlated interviews with the SE dudes.
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#24 Apr 23 2010 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Caia wrote:
And again, I bet you had no issue using macroes in FFXI. All macroes did in FFXI was to help you cast spells/use abilities. Unless you're able to tell me you'd prefer they got rid of them in FFXI, your argument is subjective.


FFXI macros were an in-game element, stock to the UI & gameplay and available to all players. It was developed as part of the game, by the game developer. They are available to all players out of the box. You're suggesting this is the same as 3rd party developed application extensions that add to the "functionality" of the game in WoW. It's not even apples and oranges, it's apples and broccoli.

Caia wrote:
WoW's addons don't fight mobs for you. They don't figure out what is best to do versus a certain mob. They don't automate that type of thing. Blizzard took great pains to eliminate that kind of thing when they made the language that the addons are written in. Moreover, if Blizzard found a hole, they plugged it.


Decursive still exists, and still simplifies targeting & dispelling solutions by the means that Blizzard implemented to block it's original functionality...which was even further than that. Click-to-cast AddOns simplify targeting solutions for any & all casting. These are all tools that are not available to all players, out of the box, added by the developer. These are application extensions that must be sought out, installed, and updated by the user and/or developer. They must be added to the game through user desire. They are available to everyone, but not everyone uses them for different reasons. Maybe they don't want to feel obligated to update their UI each Blizzard patch to ensure their UI works. Maybe they don't want to require assistance to play. Who knows...but it is absolutely, 100% not the same thing as in-game macro's in FFXI created by SE for the game out of the box.
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#25 Apr 24 2010 at 12:59 AM Rating: Default
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I think what Caia is trying to say is addons and tools from the developer are basically the same. There's no real difference, besides the obvious, between, say, tab targeting and click to cast addons if the developer allows them they are sanctioned by the developer and might as well be part of the game. The only reasons people complain about addons is because they are too lazy to download them or because they don't like the idea of the threat meter being visible. I agree with the threat meter...makes the game too easy in most circumstances or in the case of more recent WoW raids too annoying what with threat wipes and secondary tanks and such. But that was an obvious choice of direction Blizz decided to take WoW...doesn't have anything at all to do with the addon system other than the fact that you still have to download it.
#26 Apr 24 2010 at 1:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I enjoy my addons playing wow. Anyone that says grid/clique doesnt change things when healing a raid is tarded though. speeds your "performance" by a large margin compared to blizz regular UI. The rest such as recount, omen, and timer helpers don't change things all that much.

Not why I am posting though, I know XI never had any self addons and I'd truly like to see them implement at least a recount/dps meter of some sort. That one addon would be godly to help you maximize your rotations and gearsets. It's not difficult to do, but I doubt it'll be there. Makes me sad, I really want that one to be there.
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#27 Apr 24 2010 at 3:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Add ons can be cool, but they always end up going overboard. You can go on about how much X add on helps for X things, but when you put it all together, they are removing the complication/player thought involved in many tasks, which makes scripted fights even more scripted. Thing is players *will* end up REQUIRING these add ons for you to raid with them, which then really kills it for those of us trying to avoid them. Last time I played wow, I had add ons that yelled at me to move when I was in fire or something (so I dont even have to pay that little amount of attention anymore, just wait for the mod to yell at me then sidestep dur dur) and my guild used an add on that let them draw on the ground so they could make circles for where people to stand, and lines where your supposed to run to etc. Completely removing thought process, and of course, these were "required" to raid.

Add ons will get abused, they will also be enforced by players onto everyone else for good or bad. Having played mmo's with and without add ons, if I had to choose on or the other with no middle I'd say none.

Gearscore can die in a fire too, I went to a raid on my hunter in cloth gear but no one noticed I was wearing cloth gear because my "gearscore" was 5k+, they didnt even care my dps sucked in said gear they didnt notice they rather take the pretty number then a lower better itemized that that can do the real job. WoW's at the point were players have gotten so lazy with their addons doing it all they dont even bother to double check with their own eyes anymore.

edit: simply put, they only thing wow's addon DONT do is push the button, but they sure do tell you WHEN to..

Edited, Apr 24th 2010 5:31am by Silverwyrm
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#28 Apr 24 2010 at 5:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
The only reasons people complain about addons is because they are too lazy to download them or because they don't like the idea of the threat meter being visible.


No offense, but what you're saying is so blatantly bias that it's useless in an argument on such a topic. Even people in FFXI that don't use Macro's aren't lazy, they just don't want to use them. Calling a person lazy for not downloading and maintaining a varying number of application extensions for their MMO is just rude. I'm sorry...but I don't feel it's the players responsibility to have to do that.

Blizzard did what they did with player-made AddOns because they had the desire and manpower to police such a thing, and dedicated developers on their end to create an extension system that worked for them. They're constantly working on it, constantly changing & configuring it to the needs of the 3rd party dev community. I think that's unnecessary when it comes to developing a game, and if SE wanted to configure their UI in anyway, they should do it themselves, without requiring the need to police an entire community of AddOn authors...and simply use the knowledge of the public community to help distinguish what's helpful, useful, etc., and then implement it into their UI.
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#29 Apr 24 2010 at 5:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly, as a player in XI who has used Windower before they actually made a Windowed mode, i'd strongly suggest SE put in a recast timer, and a parser. (and hopefully they've learned their lesson and lets XIV be played in Windowed mode from release >_>; )
Recast and Parser were the best things since sliced bread, even for support classes. Parser let me see the increase in damage my team was doing, and if accuracy or haste songs were better suited with the group increasing their performance.

Now Addons like WoW has - no, never, forget it. I've played WoW, and still partake to see old friends from XI that have moved on from Vana'D. But the only addon i use is a UI changer, a parser, and that's it. I've tried all the fancy ones, and really didn't enjoy what little thought process wow had, to be taken away to a mind numbing "push now" game.

Ultimately though, I don't forsee XIV coming out with a built in recast / parser / whatever. Which means we'll see the windower make a come back in some shape form or fashion, and SE will pick up their beat stick like they did when Windower first came out until they realize they wont be able to win that war, and just ignore it so long as no one's dumb enough to go /l "this windower is awesome!"


On the macro topic:
I would really like to see more lines useable >_> having to click 2 macros to completely change my gear layout for resting/other random sh*t on bard is redonkulous. I'm hoping to see macros with unlimited lines or maybe a 500 character limit.

Edited, Apr 24th 2010 7:10am by Naeo
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#30 Apr 24 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Addons, no thanks, a new FF MMO with you playing just being a **** bot and doing nothing by yourself just like in WOW would be stupid.
#31 Apr 26 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
AngusX wrote:
Sounds like "increase performance" to me.
No? They didn't do anything you couldn't already do via spamming in game macros. It's not like POS hacking or duping where you're actaully breaking the game.
A.MNK wrote:
Windower Macroes
-infinite lines
-Could be executed by player or automatically based on certain events
-Faster than XI macroes
-If set up properly could fight for you
-You could write infinite line macros without windower at all or use the "jump to book" in game command to write multipage macros.
-not by itself
-no, except vs SE's windowed mode because it has massive lag/priority issues
-no

If you're running standard windower or windower lite you don't have any gameplay advantages over other players other than an easier to navigate UI. The only way to get the type of functionality you're talking about is if you're writing complex XML scripts which is the same thing as creating a third party bot (which I am opposed to). The stupid thing is that that sort of thing is generally less efficient and more prone to error than controlling the character yourself because it's impossible to account for every possible circumstance (and that's why I spent half by FF12 game time rewriting gambits).

SE has been notoriously vague and inconsistent on how they deal with various levels of outside programs. There are SS of people telling GMs to their face they use windower and not getting punished, while other people get banned for absolutely no reason at all. By setting up an application/approval process for add-ons like Blizzard they could exert more influence and clarity over what is "ok".
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#32 Apr 26 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Using addons or modifying the game in any way is breaking the Terms of Service on both FFXI and FFXIV.

SE wants everyone to play with the same game, with the same advantages and disadvantages.

Breaking ToS can often result in a temporary ban or a permanent one.

However it is your computer, you time spent in the game and your account so you may do as you wish with it. Breaking ToS is not equal to breaking any laws. Just like adultery.

Edited, Apr 26th 2010 6:07pm by outzaidurz
#33 Apr 26 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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However it is your computer, you time spent in the game and your account so you may do as you wish with it. Breaking ToS is not equal to breaking any laws. Just like adultery.


Unless you live in that bastion of freedom, Iran.


Yeah... I really have nothing worthwhile to add to the topic here Smiley: glare
#34outzaidurz, Posted: Apr 26 2010 at 4:24 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yay, let's talk about Iran for a while. I was asking my "plastic-dad" the other day why countries like Irak and Afganistan didn't just get some nukes and scare the Americans away but he said they were hard to come by. Now we hear reports of Iran "being evil" (I heard Obama mutter something about it I think) and they have nuclear reactors and probably nukes.
#35 Apr 26 2010 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Quote:
However it is your computer, you time spent in the game and your account so you may do as you wish with it. Breaking ToS is not equal to breaking any laws. Just like adultery.


Unless you live in that bastion of freedom, Iran.


Yeah... I really have nothing worthwhile to add to the topic here Smiley: glare
lies, best post in thread Smiley: lol
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#36 Apr 27 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I haven't read the whole thread, I don't mind either way, I don't want to see addons in the sense that WoW has them but a windower for FF14 wouldn't be so bad, but hopefully SE will take alpha/beta testers opinions onboard and we won't see the need for game breaking addons.
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#37 Apr 27 2010 at 10:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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The inability to alt-tab and window in FFXI led to the windower and all its plugins. It was also that much easier to justify use of these things for most people, because windowing "should have" been allowed from the beginning. That's very true, but... if FF14 allows a windowed mode by itself, it makes me wonder about additional scripts, plugins, programs.

There are plenty of people now so used to their scripts doing everything for them, I can't imagine they'd be ok with simply not using them in FF14. But without being attached to something so acceptable to most like windower, it makes me wonder about how many people would be ok with it, and whether SE would take a firmer stand against it.
Little additions won't be in the "gray area" in that case, they'd just be 3rd party programs. and modifications that are likely simply against the rules.

There are some things I couldn't care less about, but I sure would hope SE would squash things like apradar before they ever took hold in the community.
Other, smaller stuff isn't a huge deal, but it does offer somewhat of an advantage to the user, obviously (otherwise people wouldn't use them, and shells wouldn't require you have them in XI just to join). Stuff like spellcast gets a little too close to cheating, if you ask me. I would be ok with SE having a zero tolerance policy.
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#38 Apr 28 2010 at 4:57 PM Rating: Default
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Squallido wrote:
Addons, no thanks, a new FF MMO with you playing just being a **** bot and doing nothing by yourself just like in WOW would be stupid.


You're an idiot.

Yogtheterrible wrote:
...because they don't like the idea of the threat meter being visible. I agree with the threat meter...makes the game too easy in most circumstances or in the case of more recent WoW raids too annoying what with threat wipes and secondary tanks and such...


...and you're an even bigger idiot.

This is 2010, not 1990 with MUD style gaming. You want to live in the dark age and *guess* as to whether you're going to pull aggro and potential wipe a raid/alliance? Fine, be my guest; you might as well rip out your speed-o-meter in your vehicle because it makes gauging your speed "too easy". Let idiots stay in the dark ages with their "ZOMG SEEING THE THREAT I DO MAKES THE ENTIRE GAME SO EASY".

Frankly, if FFXIV can't even do a basic 0-100% next to your name/target's name in a group or even a friggin' circle that fills up, I'll be majorly disappointed. Not seeing **** doesn't make it more "mysterious"; it just illustrates laziness in development.
#39 Apr 28 2010 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
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SE doesn't like third party applications. IMHO, they will not allow them in this game. Especially considering all the trouble FFXI faced with RMT (either botters, hackers, or whatever) and all the trouble SE went through to attempt to deal with the problem. I remember in all the Task Force updates, they would finish up with "don't use third party programs and visit unfamiliar sites blah blah blah". (My account was still hacked, and I had a fairly secure PC at the time and none of the viruses or trojans associated with the hacks on my computer. What now SE!? /endbitterrant. But I digress). It stands to reason this philosophy will remain in place for FFXIV, especially will all the information we have about the devs wanting the experience to be equal across all platforms.

As for addons that are acceptable in a game... I support UI addons. I support parsers (though dps meters are a slippery slope - if you can't meet a certain standard, even if you know what you're doing and will be carried in an easy dungeon, some people still won't invite you in WoW) to a certain extent. I support addons that streamline redundant processes (like 5 line macros requiring several macros to make a full gear switch for WS etc.). As has been stated, Gearscore ruined WoW. Addons like this create elitism and a false sense of a player's ability soley based on their gear. In FFXI and WoW, I've played with players in mediocre gear who did a much better job than someone with much better gear.

So it's really a toss up. I like the ease and aethetic bonuses some addons bring to a game; streamlining is good. Once you get beyond that, to me, is a very gray and dangerous area.

#40 Apr 28 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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StrijderVechter wrote:
Squallido wrote:
Addons, no thanks, a new FF MMO with you playing just being a **** bot and doing nothing by yourself just like in WOW would be stupid.


You're an idiot.

Yogtheterrible wrote:
...because they don't like the idea of the threat meter being visible. I agree with the threat meter...makes the game too easy in most circumstances or in the case of more recent WoW raids too annoying what with threat wipes and secondary tanks and such...


...and you're an even bigger idiot.

This is 2010, not 1990 with MUD style gaming. You want to live in the dark age and *guess* as to whether you're going to pull aggro and potential wipe a raid/alliance? Fine, be my guest; you might as well rip out your speed-o-meter in your vehicle because it makes gauging your speed "too easy". Let idiots stay in the dark ages with their "ZOMG SEEING THE THREAT I DO MAKES THE ENTIRE GAME SO EASY".

Frankly, if FFXIV can't even do a basic 0-100% next to your name/target's name in a group or even a friggin' circle that fills up, I'll be majorly disappointed. Not seeing sh*t doesn't make it more "mysterious"; it just illustrates laziness in development.


And YOU obviously have no sense of proper debate. For World of Warcraft, is a threat meter necessary? Perhaps, but it seems focused on one very narrow part of the game and only for the sake of min/max-ing your efficiency. If you are of the min/max group, then I need speak no further to you on the topic. But for you to tell OTHERS who have no desire to min/max (there is another post out there that discusses the various types of MMO gamers such as those that seek the highest quality gear and those who seek to roleplay; I'm sure someone here could search and find the link for it) that they are idiotic for not desiring a system that is very focused on a narrow part of another game in theirs? That's just downright rude.

You also go on to compare a real life situation (usage of a speedometer) to an in-game situation (there are no life-threatening or life-altering situations involved). I find that argument to be a folly, as someone put it before me (comparing apples to broccoli, I believe the phrase was).

Finally, you are telling an artist that you don't like a painting because it doesn't have the color red involved. Is it sheer laziness that caused them to not use red? Perhaps they meant for it to be that way. If you want to psychoanalyze the developers of this game on the reason that they do or do not include certain features, be my guest. Without a degree on the topic of psychology beyond a basic level, I would find your statements to be little more than opinion (perhaps informed, perhaps not) and to be taken, as the phrase goes, with a grain of salt.

~~~~~

Now, on topic. Add-ons really shouldn't need to exist in-game, in my opinion. If a feature doesn't work for the players, it is up to the developers to work with their people and figure out what we want. I feel that the alpha and beta both will help to manage most of the heavy details, with a few minor ones slipping through the cracks to be patched at a later date. If the developers continue to fight against requested changes, that is when people start looking for another game or simply ways to improve it on their side. As SE will probably be against this, I'm certain they will try their best to make certain that we can all come to a form of compromise.

However, I would caution the players not to have them stray too far from their vision. While, yes, the company wants to please the players, it also wants to retain the elements of mystique and hard work that goes into the development of the game. Think of it as saying "This is 'Final Fantasy', not 'Player 1 through 500,000's Fantasy'".

And one more opinion before I leave this topic for now... Automation breeds laziness and creates a crutch. The more information that is presented to you, the easier a solution is found and the more players will rely on that information being present. If that tool is ever taken away, the player's abilities are severely reduced. If the player never had the tool in the first place, they learn to rely on their own abilities. See how far you can go without the calculator first, then use it to get by some of the harder problems.
#41 Apr 28 2010 at 6:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with no Mods/add ons. If you can't manage to figure the game out on your own, and play inside the rules of the 'world', then maybe it's just beyond your skill level.

It gets way to close to cheating for me. Same view from me on RMT... You're playing outside the set rules for the game.
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#42 Apr 28 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Default
AmanoJ wrote:

The inability to alt-tab and window in FFXI led to the windower and all its plugins. It was also that much easier to justify use of these things for most people, because windowing "should have" been allowed from the beginning. That's very true, but... if FF14 allows a windowed mode by itself, it makes me wonder about additional scripts, plugins, programs.

There are plenty of people now so used to their scripts doing everything for them, I can't imagine they'd be ok with simply not using them in FF14. But without being attached to something so acceptable to most like windower, it makes me wonder about how many people would be ok with it, and whether SE would take a firmer stand against it.
Little additions won't be in the "gray area" in that case, they'd just be 3rd party programs. and modifications that are likely simply against the rules.

There are some things I couldn't care less about, but I sure would hope SE would squash things like apradar before they ever took hold in the community.
Other, smaller stuff isn't a huge deal, but it does offer somewhat of an advantage to the user, obviously (otherwise people wouldn't use them, and shells wouldn't require you have them in XI just to join). Stuff like spellcast gets a little too close to cheating, if you ask me. I would be ok with SE having a zero tolerance policy.


Obviously I don't know (and have no way of knowing) what SE may or may not be planning as a part of their anti-RMT/cheat systems, but all I have to say about people getting geared up to start hunting for third party applications to "enhance" their gaming experience is one word: Warden.

I can't imagine that SE would have named a system produced in-house as "RMTpwner" which leads me to the conclusion that they're not afraid to outsource countermeasures for unsanctioned activity. And if that's the case I wouldn't be surprised to see a whole slew of "WTF banned?!?!" threads scattered across the net within the first few months of service because the FFXI crowd, still 7 years behind the times, didn't realize that MMO devs can ship sneaky little applets that will detect those kinds of third party applications.
#43 Apr 29 2010 at 5:33 AM Rating: Good
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StrijderVechter wrote:
This is 2010, not 1990 with MUD style gaming. You want to live in the dark age and *guess* as to whether you're going to pull aggro and potential wipe a raid/alliance? Fine, be my guest; you might as well rip out your speed-o-meter in your vehicle because it makes gauging your speed "too easy". Let idiots stay in the dark ages with their "ZOMG SEEING THE THREAT I DO MAKES THE ENTIRE GAME SO EASY".


Sounds a bit more like your opinion leans toward wanting your gaming experience spoon-fed to you to absolve you of all ability to make errors in the hopes of being 1337. Errors are life...skill & attention offsets this. Welcome to an FF MMO...where skill and attention matters.
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#44 Apr 29 2010 at 6:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Ryneguy wrote:
Sounds a bit more like your opinion leans toward wanting your gaming experience spoon-fed to you to absolve you of all ability to make errors in the hopes of being 1337. Errors are life...skill & attention offsets this. Welcome to an FF MMO...where skill and attention matters.


Sounds like you downed 25-man Heroic Lich King. Care to link your achievement? Maybe show us a screenshot of you dancing in front of the Dalaran bank with your title on?

Or maybe you don't know what the @#%^ you're talking about.

Edit: The console version isn't necessarily a limitation considering that this is 2010 and most online services are far more robust than they were a decade ago. You could easily have users upload addons to Square's servers via their SE Account page and then have the console check for new/updated addons upon logging on. At that point, the main concern would be the console's system RAM, which would put a limit as to how many addons you could load at once. I would imagine they would set a cap as to how much memory could be taken up by addons, and impose that same limitation on the PC version to keep things fair.

People also seem to be forgetting that WoW's addon model has lead to many additions to the stock UI. Multiple action bars, in-game clock display, the Equipment Manager...****, even raid frames started out as a 3rd-party addon before Blizzard made them baseline. Purists conveniently ignore this, thinking that these additions are Blizzard's brilliant ideas, but they don't realize that it was the popularity of certain addons that caused Blizzard to implement these additions in the first place.

Some food for thought.

Edited, Apr 29th 2010 9:09am by Quanta
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#45 Apr 29 2010 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Sounds like you downed 25-man Heroic Lich King. Care to link your achievement? Maybe show us a screenshot of you dancing in front of the Dalaran bank with your title on?

Or maybe you don't know what the @#%^ you're talking about.


What does that have to do with his comment? Nothing at all. His whole point is that the add ons you want would make the game too easy. You respond with an insult that has nothing to do with the topic.

Anyway, I would agree that most add ons would take away from the skill required in the game. For example, lets look at ffxi's black mage. Your job is to deal damage with spells. The only difficulty with that is knowing your hate limit. Any three year old can cast Thunder IV > Blizzard IV > repeat. The skill of a black mage is not shown by the spells you cast, but how well you can deal damage without getting yourself killed. You need experience to know your hate limit. That is the entire difficulty of blm. An add on hate meter would make being a blm boring and repetative.
#46 Apr 29 2010 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
Ryneguy wrote:
StrijderVechter wrote:
This is 2010, not 1990 with MUD style gaming. You want to live in the dark age and *guess* as to whether you're going to pull aggro and potential wipe a raid/alliance? Fine, be my guest; you might as well rip out your speed-o-meter in your vehicle because it makes gauging your speed "too easy". Let idiots stay in the dark ages with their "ZOMG SEEING THE THREAT I DO MAKES THE ENTIRE GAME SO EASY".


Sounds a bit more like your opinion leans toward wanting your gaming experience spoon-fed to you to absolve you of all ability to make errors in the hopes of being 1337. Errors are life...skill & attention offsets this. Welcome to an FF MMO...where skill and attention matters.


Skill? Are you out of your mind? Look, the sooner you crazy kids stop forgeting that a lot of the critics of FFXI have actually played the game, the sooner you'll stop attributing things to "skill" when there was very little "skill" involved. Threat meters in games with a faster pace to the combat make a great deal of sense. Can I live without in FFXIV? Absolutely. Am I sobbing myself to sleep every night because addons are not likely going to be a supported feature of FFXIV? No way dood. But let's knock it off with the ignorant ********* alright? If the Windower had offered a threat meter plugin, everyone and their dog would have been all over it like a fat kid on a smartie...including the most "skilled"...because it would have presented an opportunity to tweak performance just that little extra bit.
#47 Apr 29 2010 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Regavalt wrote:
Quote:
Sounds like you downed 25-man Heroic Lich King. Care to link your achievement? Maybe show us a screenshot of you dancing in front of the Dalaran bank with your title on?

Or maybe you don't know what the @#%^ you're talking about.


What does that have to do with his comment? Nothing at all. His whole point is that the add ons you want would make the game too easy. You respond with an insult that has nothing to do with the topic.


It has everything to do with the topic. People have this false impression that downloading as something as mundane as a threat meter is going to make you instantly pro at the game; if that were the case, a lot more guilds would have the hardest encounter currently in WoW down. As of present, only 13 guilds have successfully completed the encounter on 25-man heroic mode. Wow! It's so easy if only 13 guilds have done it versus the 4000 or so that have finished the normal version. THANK YOU, ADDONS!

I'll say it again: you guys don't know what the **** you're talking about.

source:
Heroic LK: http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/4584
Normal LK: http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/4597

Quote:
Anyway, I would agree that most add ons would take away from the skill required in the game. For example, lets look at ffxi's black mage. Your job is to deal damage with spells. The only difficulty with that is knowing your hate limit. Any three year old can cast Thunder IV > Blizzard IV > repeat. The skill of a black mage is not shown by the spells you cast, but how well you can deal damage without getting yourself killed. You need experience to know your hate limit. That is the entire difficulty of blm. An add on hate meter would make being a blm boring and repetative.


If such a simple addon is enough to break the game like that, I'd say something's wrong with the game design, not the addon. In WoW, when I play my Mage, I'm not too concerned with threat; my focus is on using my procs when they become available so I can maximize my DPS. I still have to watch my threat, but it's not the challenge of the class, nor should it be.
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#48 Apr 29 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
If the Windower had offered a threat meter plugin, everyone and their dog would have been all over it like a fat kid on a smartie...including the most "skilled"...because it would have presented an opportunity to tweak performance just that little extra bit.
I couldn't agree with you more here. When I played WoW, the addons I used were not for making the game easier (Auctioneer is a different story, but the Auction House should have been designed that way to begin with), but to make myself perform better with a little more information that addons give you. In reality, that's really all addons do is provide information.
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#49 Apr 29 2010 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
that's really all addons do is provide information.


Information is the most powerful advantage of all.
#50 Apr 29 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
StrijderVechter wrote:
Squallido wrote:
Addons, no thanks, a new FF MMO with you playing just being a **** bot and doing nothing by yourself just like in WOW would be stupid.


You're an idiot.

Yogtheterrible wrote:
...because they don't like the idea of the threat meter being visible. I agree with the threat meter...makes the game too easy in most circumstances or in the case of more recent WoW raids too annoying what with threat wipes and secondary tanks and such...


...and you're an even bigger idiot.

This is 2010, not 1990 with MUD style gaming. You want to live in the dark age and *guess* as to whether you're going to pull aggro and potential wipe a raid/alliance? Fine, be my guest; you might as well rip out your speed-o-meter in your vehicle because it makes gauging your speed "too easy". Let idiots stay in the dark ages with their "ZOMG SEEING THE THREAT I DO MAKES THE ENTIRE GAME SO EASY".

Frankly, if FFXIV can't even do a basic 0-100% next to your name/target's name in a group or even a friggin' circle that fills up, I'll be majorly disappointed. Not seeing sh*t doesn't make it more "mysterious"; it just illustrates laziness in development.


Yeah, and you are a douche bag. Calling them idiots for expressing their opinions? **** you are cool!

WoW is the only game to allow that kind of freedom with addons that I can recall. I think in addons like deadly boss mods, which basically tells you when the boss is going to do a special move, really takes a large chunk of challenge out of the encounter. I hope SE doesn't allow this type of addon.

Also, do you really think if they don't have an on-screen threat meter that it's laziness? Really? Because WoW didn't have one for the LONGEST time. It's not laziness, it's a choice on behalf of the developer.
#51 Apr 29 2010 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
It's not laziness, it's a choice on behalf of the developer.
or they didn't/don't realize the demand? or they don't have the resources to devote to it? or they just didn't think of it at all? Devs aren't omniscient/omnipotent gods, just because they didn't add something doesn't mean it was a purposeful decision not to.
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