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#52 Apr 29 2010 at 10:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I think what would be better that addons is if SE takes notice of gamers feedback and tries to add these things in game offically.

How they would go about doing this is anyones guess, but they deffinately need to be more in touch with their userbase this time around.
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#53 Apr 29 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
Diakar wrote:
I think what would be better that addons is if SE takes notice of gamers feedback and tries to add these things in game offically.

How they would go about doing this is anyones guess, but they deffinately need to be more in touch with their userbase this time around.


That would be my prefered option as well. Blizzard has been doing this for a while now. The main difference is that Blizzard can actually take a look at what addons people are using to get an idea of how popular they really are, whereas SE would have to sort through user feedback that may or may not be representative of what their customers at large really want.
#54 Apr 30 2010 at 4:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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People keep bringing up Threat Meters & Data AddOns, of which I stated I agree with and understand the usefulness of them. There's no performance hindered or gained by "knowing" something. Knowledge is power. That's all fine and dandy. The point I'm trying to make is the advocates that believe in extensive modding of not just the aesthetic UI from an information point of view, but for a performance point of view. People will scream up and down that they can't live without AddOn's like Clique or Decursive in WoW. This is a problem...one that shouldn't be repeated. When it gets to the point where people feel they need an AddOn to play the game, that problem shouldn't exist. I'm sure anyone who's played WoW knows what MazzleUI is. Months and months of ******** and complaining about "I'm gonna QQ quit cause I can't play the game without Mazzle"...so on and so forth. It's just absurd, IMHO. If there is a way to display information made available by the game via easy-peasy info-fetching API that SE provides, I think that would be great. God knows in FFXI I'd like to know how much XP I have without having to shuffle through Menu->Status.

And I use the word "Skill" loosely...stop attacking it. People in WoW seem to think Achievements make you a better player. They don't...they're time sinks. If I buff my Achievement score by doing redundant repetative tasks like Repeating Daily Quest 5 days in a row or, Oooo...more points for doing 10 daily quests 5 days in a row...it's just stupid. And then the people that base who they invite on what "time sinks" people have achieved...well...that just kills me. If you translated that to FFXI, I would start to expect people asking "/played please" before inviting you to a group, as if spending more days in the game makes you a better player. People need to rely on player experience, not AddOns and Achievements to determine a players ability. This is what I mean by "Skill". Not "zomg you suxxorZ @ teh game cause u use addons".

Edited for clarity

Edited, Apr 30th 2010 6:24am by Ryneguy
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#55Sylvii, Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 6:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) They really should allow add-ons. It can make a mediocre game like FFxi a winner like wow or CS was to Half-life. I played FFxi for 3yrs and WoW for 4yrs. In wow there are hundreds of useless add-ons that end up ******** up peoples UIs and bogging there systems down. There are a few that real stood out liek DBM and Outfitter. If FFxiv does not allow the critical add-ons to be developed and used it will lose. Think iphone aps... and yeah gearscore is for nubs. I love how it(gs)is used extensively by the aliance and not by the horde same server, and the horde is consistently better at PvE pug, lol.
#56Sylvii, Posted: Apr 30 2010 at 6:51 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) All I can reply to this conversation is go fight AV some more. hehe
#57 Apr 30 2010 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Diakar wrote:
I think what would be better that addons is if SE takes notice of gamers feedback and tries to add these things in game offically.

How they would go about doing this is anyones guess, but they deffinately need to be more in touch with their userbase this time around.
That would be my prefered option as well. Blizzard has been doing this for a while now. The main difference is that Blizzard can actually take a look at what addons people are using to get an idea of how popular they really are, whereas SE would have to sort through user feedback that may or may not be representative of what their customers at large really want.
I'm also fine with that. From the player prospective it would be even better if SE took charge of keeping add-ons current and functional every version update instead of having wait for an outsider to reverse engineer the changes and make the appropriate correction. Four(?) years to realize that players want to be able to alt+tab or get an IM without crashing is completely unacceptable though. A lot of players just want to be able to easily see information (exp/recasts/etc) without searching through multiple menu's and SE still hasn't addressed this after 8 years.


Quote:
When it gets to the point where people feel they need an AddOn to play the game, that problem shouldn't exist.
or the add-on should have been part of the game to begin with?
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#58 Apr 30 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
Ryneguy wrote:
And I use the word "Skill" loosely...stop attacking it. People in WoW seem to think Achievements make you a better player. They don't...they're time sinks. If I buff my Achievement score by doing redundant repetative tasks like Repeating Daily Quest 5 days in a row or, Oooo...more points for doing 10 daily quests 5 days in a row...it's just stupid. And then the people that base who they invite on what "time sinks" people have achieved...well...that just kills me. If you translated that to FFXI, I would start to expect people asking "/played please" before inviting you to a group, as if spending more days in the game makes you a better player. People need to rely on player experience, not AddOns and Achievements to determine a players ability. This is what I mean by "Skill". Not "zomg you suxxorZ @ teh game cause u use addons".


Just to clarify, most people who play WoW don't look at achievements in general as an indicator of skill. They look at specific achievements earned within a specific timeframe (ie. earned before the content was nerfed or it became an option to outgear it). And they've come to refer to achievements for that measurement of accomplishment because even though you can fake an achievement in text communications channels, you can't fake one on the armory page. "Explore Kalimdor" is not generally considered to be a measure of skill. "Dedicated Tribute to Insanity" is.
#59 Apr 30 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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I'd prefer they don't have add-ons, but that is with the disclaimer that SE learns some things from the unofficial FFXI windower on what kind of features the players are looking for and implements them directly in the game. In addition to that, not doing annoying things like hiding certain stats from the players. Party members TP for example? If a piece of gear has a +<stat> on it, then they better **** well let the players know what their character's <stat> is without having to do hours of experimenting to figure that crap out. Accuracy, Magic Attack, etc I'm looking at you.
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#60 Apr 30 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Think iphone aps... and yeah gearscore is for nubs. I love how it(gs)is used extensively by the aliance and not by the horde same server, and the horde is consistently better at PvE pug, lol.


Kind of odd that the addon was developed by a Horde player. :D
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#61 Apr 30 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Ryneguy wrote:
People will scream up and down that they can't live without AddOn's like Clique or Decursive in WoW.


Nothing either of them do is anything special though. At most, they enable the use of 2 extra buttons and their alt-key modifiers. You can still obtain the same functionality via mouseover macros and hotkeys. The only thing you lose without a unitframe addon is the healing estimation that most show.

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When it gets to the point where people feel they need an AddOn to play the game, that problem shouldn't exist. I'm sure anyone who's played WoW knows what MazzleUI is. Months and months of ******** and complaining about "I'm gonna QQ quit cause I can't play the game without Mazzle"...so on and so forth. It's just absurd, IMHO.


It does get to that point though, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who can play the current incarnation of the game with only one actionbar, or without raid frames.

Never heard of Mazzle though. Are you sure anything happened?

Quote:
And I use the word "Skill" loosely...stop attacking it. People in WoW seem to think Achievements make you a better player. They don't...they're time sinks. If I buff my Achievement score by doing redundant repetative tasks like Repeating Daily Quest 5 days in a row or, Oooo...more points for doing 10 daily quests 5 days in a row...it's just stupid. And then the people that base who they invite on what "time sinks" people have achieved...well...that just kills me.


It's not the number that's important here, but the specific achievement. "A Simple Re-Quest" isn't in the same league as "Fall of the Lich King"; ****, it's not even the same sport. The point of the achievement is to give people a visual indicator that says "Yeah, I've done this", which is important when you're putting together a random group full of people you've never played with before. People don't create PUGs so they can wipe on Marrowgar for 3 hours; I assume they at least want to get to Deathbringer and beyond. Still, it'd be a tad ridiculous to expect people to have downed the Lich King when making your PUG, unless your intended goal was to down the Lich King, in which case I can see that becoming far more important.

What makes addons like GS or expecting certain achievements ridiculous is when you're tackling old content that doesn't require it. Asking for 5.5k GS or any ICC achievement to do, say, ToC25 is patently absurd because it's basically means that the raid leader and his buddies want to be carried through easy content. These days, you can get the gear to do the instance from running random heroics, so why ask for ICC-level gear?

Quote:
If you translated that to FFXI, I would start to expect people asking "/played please" before inviting you to a group, as if spending more days in the game makes you a better player. People need to rely on player experience, not AddOns and Achievements to determine a players ability. This is what I mean by "Skill". Not "zomg you suxxorZ @ teh game cause u use addons".


The problem with relying on player experience alone is that, unless you know the person or their guild, there's a good chance that you're going to get burned when you invite them to your group to do content they've never done before. It's why people don't put much faith in the success of a trade chat PUG, and why they use GS and achievements as metrics in the first place.
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#62 Apr 30 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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shintasama wrote:
I'm also fine with that. From the player prospective it would be even better if SE took charge of keeping add-ons current and functional every version update instead of having wait for an outsider to reverse engineer the changes and make the appropriate correction. Four(?) years to realize that players want to be able to alt+tab or get an IM without crashing is completely unacceptable though. A lot of players just want to be able to easily see information (exp/recasts/etc) without searching through multiple menu's and SE still hasn't addressed this after 8 years.


I agree, but keep in mind FFXI came out before the heavy AddOn revolution that followed WoW and others like it. EQ handled some modding, but most of what EQ and EQII do (even to this day) is reskin & information API pulls. SE was in a gray area of MMO development, so they really didn't build their UI and engine around what we know as common today. But true...it did take way too long for some popular and needed things to be implemented.

shintasama wrote:
or the add-on should have been part of the game to begin with?


Well that's the whole point! Smiley: sly

Quanta wrote:
Never heard of Mazzle though. Are you sure anything happened?


MazzleUI @ WoWInterface ...you would need to dig a bit, as it's now outdated since the fans that were updating it have stopped. The growth of oUF paved the way for more minimal & customized UI compilations, so Mazzle became quite outdated in functionality and style.

Quanta wrote:
The problem with relying on player experience alone is that, unless you know the person or their guild, there's a good chance that you're going to get burned when you invite them to your group to do content they've never done before. It's why people don't put much faith in the success of a trade chat PUG, and why they use GS and achievements as metrics in the first place.


That's the whole point though, isn't it? Player interaction? When we simply use a scoring/achievement system to automatically deem someone "worthy", well, that removes the whole reason for the game being what it is. And I assure you, there are plenty of people with Achievements in WoW that were carried and are no better (and a lot of times worse) than others that simply don't "aim" for or participate in things that yield those achievements. A persons ability to grasp the mechanics of the game & class they play shouldn't (and can't, IMO) be weighed primarily on a gimmicky Achievement system.
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#63 Apr 30 2010 at 4:31 PM Rating: Default
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Ryneguy wrote:
MazzleUI @ WoWInterface ...you would need to dig a bit, as it's now outdated since the fans that were updating it have stopped. The growth of oUF paved the way for more minimal & customized UI compilations, so Mazzle became quite outdated in functionality and style.


I can't see what's so special about it other than being more streamlined than the default interface. I was expecting you to tell me that it was a total gamebreaker that played the game for you or something.

Quote:
That's the whole point though, isn't it? Player interaction? When we simply use a scoring/achievement system to automatically deem someone "worthy", well, that removes the whole reason for the game being what it is.


Not really. If I'm going to spend 3+ hours doing a dungeon with a group of people, I want some assurances that the group is going to be at least marginally successful, or I'm going to find something else to do with my time. Nobody wants to put a PUG ICC25 together that's not even capable of getting past Deathbringer at the very least, especially since there's been a passive damage buff that's been steadily increasing since Frostwing Halls and the Lich King were implemented.

Quote:
And I assure you, there are plenty of people with Achievements in WoW that were carried and are no better (and a lot of times worse) than others that simply don't "aim" for or participate in things that yield those achievements. A persons ability to grasp the mechanics of the game & class they play shouldn't (and can't, IMO) be weighed primarily on a gimmicky Achievement system.


You're right, achievements aren't a preventative measure as far as metrics go, but they're not supposed to be. Neither is GearScore or any of the other methods that players use to determine who they should bring to a raid. The intended purpose of using these things as metrics is to reduce the number of bad players you get, while at the same allowing you to quickly put together a group that will be capable of clearing the content in a reasonable amount of time. Yes, that means that good players will potentially be overlooked on occassion, but that's an acceptable loss when you compare it to the tsunami of bads looming behind those good players.
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#64 Apr 30 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
Ryneguy wrote:
That's the whole point though, isn't it? Player interaction? When we simply use a scoring/achievement system to automatically deem someone "worthy", well, that removes the whole reason for the game being what it is. And I assure you, there are plenty of people with Achievements in WoW that were carried and are no better (and a lot of times worse) than others that simply don't "aim" for or participate in things that yield those achievements. A persons ability to grasp the mechanics of the game & class they play shouldn't (and can't, IMO) be weighed primarily on a gimmicky Achievement system.


The achievements that hold the most weight are the ones where you can't afford to carry anyone. You're trying really hard to hammer your WoW hatred down our throats...I just wish your perceptions were more accurate. Nobody gives a rat's *** about Sarth 3D anymore...because people can get carried. Nobody really cares about Yogg anymore...because you can get carried (even through the hardmodes). Top achievements in ToGC still held some weight when I was playing, and Dedicated Insanity achievements will always carry a certain amount of weight because you literally cannot outgear the encounter. ICC reg achievements are meh. Heroic ICC implies a measure of skill. Heroic Lich King kills are still extremely rare for all but the very best players...those carry weight. If you're refering to Dorksauce McMouthynerd strutting around thinking his 6 minute Maly kill means something, his ramblings are about on par with people who say xp grinding in FFXI were hard. They're delusional, and it's a reflection on the players, not the game.

People who know know what achievments still reflect any significant degree of skill. They know which achievements are still difficult enough to earn that you can't afford any dead weight in your group. If you take your information from idiots, you'll have an idiot's opinion.
#65 Apr 30 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Nobody really cares about Yogg anymore...because you can get carried (even through the hardmodes).


As my guild recently discovered, Yogg is still a challenge, as is hard-mode Mimiron, and probably Algalon. All of the other bosses were easy, though, even on hard mode. It's possible that if everyone knew the encounter mechanics as well as some of the more veteran raiders, things might have been easier; however, I still wouldn't put my faith in PUGs being able to simply outgear it until Cata rolls around.
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#66 Apr 30 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Default
Quanta wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Nobody really cares about Yogg anymore...because you can get carried (even through the hardmodes).


As my guild recently discovered, Yogg is still a challenge, as is hard-mode Mimiron, and probably Algalon. All of the other bosses were easy, though, even on hard mode. It's possible that if everyone knew the encounter mechanics as well as some of the more veteran raiders, things might have been easier; however, I still wouldn't put my faith in PUGs being able to simply outgear it until Cata rolls around.


It's not so much about whether or not old bosses can still catch a group with their pants down...it's more the response you'll get from people if you show up to /2 linking your just-earned achievement with excited zeal. I was one of those people who succeeded at a Sarth3D (25-man) zerg when everyone was still saying it was impossible. After that, the achievement lost a bit of its luster. The point is, people who know the content and play at a particular level can look at the achievement and the date it was earned and be able to tell whether it means anything significant or not. If someone is all fired up for having finally earned "Make Quick Werk of Him [25]" last week, good for them. Can't say it means much in the grand scheme of things and if they were to try and leverage it as an indication of skill, about the best response I could come up with (short of silence) is that it doesn't reflect on their skill in the way they might be hoping.
#67 May 01 2010 at 5:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
The achievements that hold the most weight are the ones where you can't afford to carry anyone. You're trying really hard to hammer your WoW hatred down our throats...I just wish your perceptions were more accurate.


I played WoW for over 4 years, I have multiple 80's. You're perceiving this imaginary hatred of WoW all without my assistance. Again, most of my argument is neutral. The point of what I'm saying is not everyone strives for achievements, so just because a player doesn't have the achivement doesn't mean they aren't a good player.

It's a personal preference and opinion, can you just not accept that people have opinions and preferences that do not coincide with your own? For example, I feel using a system derived for nothing other than ego boosting and time sinking isn't a constructive way to go about determining who is or is not a good player. If you believe that it is not a logical assumption to think that there are probably a good number of overlooked good players that suffer at the fate of not having a Heroic ICC achievement as an access card into groups, that's fine. I feel it's a logical assumption.

Loosen up a bit and relax...no one is hammering anything down anyone's throat. It's just a discussion.
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#68 May 01 2010 at 6:53 AM Rating: Default
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Ryneguy wrote:
I played WoW for over 4 years, I have multiple 80's. You're perceiving this imaginary hatred of WoW all without my assistance. Again, most of my argument is neutral. The point of what I'm saying is not everyone strives for achievements, so just because a player doesn't have the achivement doesn't mean they aren't a good player.

For example, I feel using a system derived for nothing other than ego boosting and time sinking isn't a constructive way to go about determining who is or is not a good player. If you believe that it is not a logical assumption to think that there are probably a good number of overlooked good players that suffer at the fate of not having a Heroic ICC achievement as an access card into groups, that's fine. I feel it's a logical assumption.


I can agree that there's probably a fair number of good players that get overlooked when these types of systems come into play. It is a logical assumption, and you're correct for having it.

The issue at hand here is that you're ignoring the deluge of bad players looming behind those good players. From 0/0/71-specs, to warriors with spell power, to keyboard-turners who backpedal out of PBAOEs, and much, much more, these baddies are just itching to be taken to a raid. Unfortunately for them, we don't want them in our raids if we can help it; ergo, we want tools to ensure that we can filter their numbers down. If that means that good players get overlooked, I'm fine with that.

However, here's the thing about good players: they're smart. Whatever barriers to entry might exist for them, they are easily capable of overcoming them if they put forth the effort. GS checks are easy to meet simply by running heroics, getting badges, and purchasing gear (you're damned close to 4.5-5k GS with gear from Triumph badges and the new heroic 5-mans, which are easy to obtain). Armory checks are easy to pass by making sure you're gearing, gemming, and enchanting correctly. Achievement checks can be overlooked by getting known as a good player, probably by starting your own raids (VoAs can be good for this) and doing well in them.

Quote:
It's a personal preference and opinion, can you just not accept that people have opinions and preferences that do not coincide with your own?


I have difficulty accepting someone's opinion when it seems little more than an attack on things they have a poor understanding of, i.e. most of the WoW hatedom's gripes. I'd be a little more understanding and accepting of your opinions if I felt even the slightest tinge that you knew what you were talking about, but so far neither you nor anyone else in this thread has given me that impression.
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Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


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#69 May 01 2010 at 10:40 AM Rating: Default
Ryneguy wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
The achievements that hold the most weight are the ones where you can't afford to carry anyone. You're trying really hard to hammer your WoW hatred down our throats...I just wish your perceptions were more accurate.


I played WoW for over 4 years, I have multiple 80's. You're perceiving this imaginary hatred of WoW all without my assistance. Again, most of my argument is neutral. The point of what I'm saying is not everyone strives for achievements, so just because a player doesn't have the achivement doesn't mean they aren't a good player.

It's a personal preference and opinion, can you just not accept that people have opinions and preferences that do not coincide with your own? For example, I feel using a system derived for nothing other than ego boosting and time sinking isn't a constructive way to go about determining who is or is not a good player. If you believe that it is not a logical assumption to think that there are probably a good number of overlooked good players that suffer at the fate of not having a Heroic ICC achievement as an access card into groups, that's fine. I feel it's a logical assumption.

Loosen up a bit and relax...no one is hammering anything down anyone's throat. It's just a discussion.


Are you sure? I'm not quite certain how a discussion about addons turns into a multi-post rant about how the various different metrics in WoW could be abused by stupid people.
#70 May 01 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Are you sure? I'm not quite certain how a discussion about addons turns into a multi-post rant about how the various different metrics in WoW could be abused by stupid people.


A synopsis, based on reading earlier posts and using my foggy, sleep-deprived memory:

Silly Argument wrote:
"Addons make the game too easy!"
"No, they don't."
"Yes, they do!"
"Then link your achievements so I know you've actually completed the hardest content in the game."
"Achievements don't determine skill!"
"You're right...except for the ones that do, such as the one I asked for."
"You shouldn't need any of that! It should be about player interaction! Good players are everywhere!"
"Yes, but for every good player there's a few dozen bad ones. I don't want to play with them, so I use these as tools to help me filter them out so that I can actually find the good ones."
"...SHUT UP!"


In other words, it's my fault. I engaged him in this talk because the prevailing thought amongst those opposed to addons seems to be that they somehow make you better at the game. It doesn't seem to occur to anyone that the quality of a person's play is largely independent of the tools they use. Addons, while they do help with your performance, are only as useful as the player using them; ergo, a bad player with the best addons is still going to be terrible compared to a better player, even if that player has no addons in the first place. It's not the addons' faults that these players suck.
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Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#71 May 01 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Default
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A lot of people here seem to be over-looking one very important factor:

The PS3 is entirely capable of supporting user-created mods.

Yes, I know the PS2 wasn't, but FFXIV isn't being released on the PS2 now, is it? It's being released on the PS3, and creating mods for the PS3 is much, much easier than creating mods for the PS2 was. Just look at all the custom firmware and homebrew applications that are available for the PS3. We never had any of that stuff on the PS2. Heck, even professional developers are getting in on the action. Best example: Epic Games and Unreal Tournament III. That proves that console limitations aren't an issue this time around.

Even if addons aren't officially supported, I seriously doubt that illegal ones would remain exclusive to the PC version like they did in FFXI.

The PS3 is not the PS2! I cannot emphasize that enough. Yes, I know they both carry the Sony brandname, but the simple fact remains that they are two two totally different machines with entirely different capabilities. The same rules and limitations we were bound by last generation do not apply today.

Edited, May 1st 2010 5:54pm by Rhianu
#72 May 01 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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It's almost impossible to get addons in a PS3 game that doesn't support it though, homebrew is very different and Sony have basically stopped this with their latest patch rendering Linux unusable due to growing fears of the consoles security.

A PC on the other hand is run by an open OS which can be manipulated in a way to hack code, you can't do this with a PS3 or at the very least the avergae user can't.

The chances of SE allowing an open mod community in FF14 are somewhere between the range of none and zero.

Edited, May 1st 2010 6:13pm by Diakar
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#73 May 01 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
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You can't use homebrew as a reason to support addons, as homebrew typically requires you to circumvent the console's security features in order to get it to do things it wasn't designed to do. A system like the one I touched on--where SE allows users to upload addons to their SE account via the website and then updates the client at next logon--is probably one of the few ways the game could be made to support addons on a console.
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Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#74 May 01 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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^Both of you missed the biggest point of my post: Unreal Tournament III.

Maybe that's my fault, though. I didn't really dwell on it, so I suppose it was easy to overlook. But the point is that there is already a PS3 game that supports the use of legal, authorized mods created by the community, and those mods work under ALL conditions, even the latest patch, because they're legal and endorsed by the publishers of the game, thus proving that any developer CAN enable support for such things if they really want to.

Saying that the PS3 is incapable of supporting officially sanctioned mods/addons is simply untrue. The proof of this lies in the fact that it's already been done.

"The greatest proof that something can be done is that someone else has already done it."

Edited, May 1st 2010 8:51pm by Rhianu
#75 May 01 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm curious what Epic does to allow mutators on the console versions. Care to elaborate more?
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#76 May 01 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not quite sure I understand your question. If you're asking how the process works, you can read about all the details here:

http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/PS3Mods.html
#77 May 01 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Decent
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So basically, you make your addon on PC (which I was assuming was the way to go anyways), then use a memory stick to transfer it to the PS3?

Hmmm...I guess that also works, though that basically means everyone needs an extra peripheral. Sure, thumb drives are cheap, but still, it's an extra piece of hardware just to get the most benefit out of the game.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#78 May 02 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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While UT3 allows for a limited degree of user mod support, it's not the type of mod that would be useful for an MMO. Sure, you can switch one map out for another, or perhaps sub skins to modify the look of the characters on your screen, but those things simply remove one data set from memory and substitute it with another. WoW-type addons are programs running alongside the client. Therefore, they take additional RAM and cpu cycles to perform. On a PC, that rarely becomes an issue, because users generally have more ram available than what the client requires to run, and if they don't they can always expand it. The biggest limitation on the PS3 is the RAM available, and it's not scalable.

UT3 shows the ability, if SE were to sanction it, for users to say... make chocobos look like donkeys, or theoretically redress an area map. But they have no bearing on the ability for the PS3 to run additional programs in the background. Unless SE finds themselves with an extra RAM to play with (highly doubtful) and decided to hold that for user created addons (rather than increase performance of the game), the possibility is dead. And even if that were to occur, the addons would have to be running from within the FFXIV client, or then you're trying to deal with amateurs coding programs for the PS3.

All in all, it would be interesting to see, but I wouldn't bet a nickel on it.
#79 May 02 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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ascorbic wrote:
WoW-type addons are programs running alongside the client.


Actually, they're user-created scripts that run within the client; to run alongside it would make them standalone, which they clearly aren't.

Quote:
Therefore, they take additional RAM and cpu cycles to perform. On a PC, that rarely becomes an issue, because users generally have more ram available than what the client requires to run, and if they don't they can always expand it. The biggest limitation on the PS3 is the RAM available, and it's not scalable.


True. IIRC, WoW had a chunk of memory reserved for addons for the longest time (64MB was the max, I think). SE could use a similar system, for PS3 and PC in order to keep things even.
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#80 May 02 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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stay with your own wow, keep away from my ffxiv
#81 May 02 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:
True. IIRC, WoW had a chunk of memory reserved for addons for the longest time (64MB was the max, I think). SE could use a similar system, for PS3 and PC in order to keep things even.


Perhaps. My time in WoW began late and was brief in duration, even adding both forays together, so it could be that WoW handled addons differently than they do now, or that my current understanding of them was off. I had always assumed The size and number of addons one could manage was based purely on the untapped resources of an individual's PC. I never saw an indication that the addons were actually running from within the Client using reserved RAM by WoW itself, but I suppose it's possible. I'll have to see what I can find on the matter...

*Edit* I was unable to find any reference to a now abandoned memory cap on addons for WoW or reserved system resources to allow everyone to use a certain number of them without performance issues. Doesn't mean they were never there, I just didn't find the info in a quick search. Today there are zero restrictions on Addon Sizes. Only factor is your PC's ability to run them and the client smoothly.

Since WoW addons aren't platform specific, they obviously run from within the client, which would be a point in favor for addons on the PS3. The big issue still would be RAM. It's hard to think SE would downgrade the MMO's performance to reserve room for Addons, and even if they were to do so, they'd have to apply the same strict limitations to the PC client as well. Still seems a real long shot... one I'd almost guarantee won't happen, but it's been illuminating to look at nonetheless.

I have no inherent hate of addons as a concept to alter UI. Addons in WoW had gone considerably farther than that though, and I do have personal reservations on some types. Questhelper was becoming very popular around my final exit from WoW. The addon would take all your quests in your log and arrange every single action you needed to perform into the most efficient list to complete them all. It would tell you what to buy and where, tell you which quests to pick up along the way to keep going, and even had an arrow to point your way so as to eliminate all thought from the experience. Of course, I tend to lean towards letting others do whatever as long as it doesn't trample on me, but I'd be disappointed to see that level of "customization" carry over... if any were allowed at all. Hard to see how such an addon helps build a thinking, involved party member.




Edited, May 2nd 2010 8:41pm by ascorbic
#82Irspellxxornab, Posted: May 02 2010 at 8:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) SE will not allow/support Add-ons! Why? Because PS3 players and XBOX (i'm sure there will be a version later) cannot use them. Which makes it unfair for the console players, that is why SE won't allow it. Get it into your heads!!!!!
#83 May 02 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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ascorbic wrote:
I have no inherent hate of addons as a concept to alter UI. Addons in WoW had gone considerably farther than that though, and I do have personal reservations on some types. Questhelper was becoming very popular around my final exit from WoW. The addon would take all your quests in your log and arrange every single action you needed to perform into the most efficient list to complete them all. It would tell you what to buy and where, tell you which quests to pick up along the way to keep going, and even had an arrow to point your way so as to eliminate all thought from the experience. Of course, I tend to lean towards letting others do whatever as long as it doesn't trample on me, but I'd be disappointed to see that level of "customization" carry over... if any were allowed at all. Hard to see how such an addon helps build a thinking, involved party member.


Addons like QuestHelper I'd say are more for the veterans who have already done these quests a million times already and just want to get things over and done with as quickly as possible. They don't need to build themselves up as thinking, involved party members because they're already there. What's disappointing here is the addition of QuestHelper-like features to the stock UI, which, while good for the veterans who just want to get things over with, is pretty lame for newbies who know almost nothing about the game. However, I'd say it's offset by the random dungeon finder, as most people do use it while leveling and therefore are going to get in some group experience on their journey from 1-80.

Irspellxxornab wrote:
SE will not allow/support Add-ons! Why? Because PS3 players and XBOX (i'm sure there will be a version later) cannot use them. Which makes it unfair for the console players, that is why SE won't allow it. Get it into your heads!!!!!


Psst...we debunked this ages ago.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#84 May 03 2010 at 2:37 AM Rating: Decent
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blizzard was sly with their add-on policy... they allowed the players to develop their UI for them, and then promptly began to include those peoples' ideas into their default UI. saved them time and money and made their players happier even though it was the players who did the work of improving blizzard's originally horrible UI in the first place.
#85 May 03 2010 at 2:46 AM Rating: Decent
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LaFey wrote:
blizzard was sly with their add-on policy... they allowed the players to develop their UI for them, and then promptly began to include those peoples' ideas into their default UI. saved them time and money and made their players happier even though it was the players who did the work of improving blizzard's originally horrible UI in the first place.


It also enabled them to focus on things the players might appreciate, like new content or class balancing. They didn't have to waste time guessing what types of interface improvements players would like to have.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#86StrijderVechter, Posted: May 03 2010 at 3:16 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) FFXI doesn't "support" addons either. But that didn't stop them from being made. Not being supported won't stop them in FFXIV either, I'm pretty confident. Whether they're to get around terrible mouse interaction, or simple information pooling (i.e. recast timers on display), they'll probably be made. It all depends on how far SE will push their UI.
#87 May 03 2010 at 4:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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StrijderVechter wrote:
Oh please. I've played FFXI since it was released on NA shores and WoW when it was released as well. Don't even try to play the moronic HERPDERP WoWISFORIDIOTSLUL card. If you seriously believe that the vast majority of FFXI takes any SERIOUS skill, you're a fool. The pace of gameplay is so slow that if you can't be good at this game, you're missing some crucial brain cells.


Many here have played both since release, myself included. It's not anything special. No one pulled a "WoWISFORIDIOTSLUL" card. The contrasting point was that FFXI doesn't have the "tools" available that WoW does. Take this question for exampled:

Imagine a world where there is no DBM, no Click-To-Cast addons, no threat addons, no damage meters, etc. You're working with the stock Blizzard UI. In this world, are raid encounters harder, easier, or the same difficulty for all players present at said raid in comparison to the way things are now with addons.

If you even hesitate to answer the question, then my point has been made. I'm not saying WoW is "LulzEazy" or that people that play WoW have no skill. I'm saying that it modifies the gameplay experience to make it easier. It's hardly the "Dark Age" of MMO's to prefer less spoon-feeding of content mechanics via 3rd party addons.
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#88 May 03 2010 at 5:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Ryneguy wrote:
Imagine a world where there is no DBM, no Click-To-Cast addons, no threat addons, no damage meters, etc. You're working with the stock Blizzard UI. In this world, are raid encounters harder, easier, or the same difficulty for all players present at said raid in comparison to the way things are now with addons.


I would say it'd be about the same. When the game launched, encounters were likely designed under the impression that users wouldn't have addons like DBM or Omen to keep track of information. Nowadays, that's pretty much a given, and thus encounters are probably designed to account for these addons. Therefore, if you were to remove addons entirely and return to the launch-day UI, today's encounters would probably be tuned to take that into account.
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#89 May 03 2010 at 6:23 AM Rating: Default
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The auctioneer add on in WoW is worth its weight in gold.... good thing its digital so it has no real weight...
#90 May 03 2010 at 6:33 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
There are plenty of people now so used to their scripts doing everything for them


The most automated plugin for windower is spellcast. If your definition of "doing everything for them" means swapping your gear between every cast (which is something even more ridiculous than your statement) then you may want relearn the words you use. Never mind, that everyone else could do the same thing using several macros/button presses.
#91 May 03 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
Ryneguy wrote:
StrijderVechter wrote:
Oh please. I've played FFXI since it was released on NA shores and WoW when it was released as well. Don't even try to play the moronic HERPDERP WoWISFORIDIOTSLUL card. If you seriously believe that the vast majority of FFXI takes any SERIOUS skill, you're a fool. The pace of gameplay is so slow that if you can't be good at this game, you're missing some crucial brain cells.


Many here have played both since release, myself included. It's not anything special. No one pulled a "WoWISFORIDIOTSLUL" card. The contrasting point was that FFXI doesn't have the "tools" available that WoW does. Take this question for exampled:

Imagine a world where there is no DBM, no Click-To-Cast addons, no threat addons, no damage meters, etc. You're working with the stock Blizzard UI. In this world, are raid encounters harder, easier, or the same difficulty for all players present at said raid in comparison to the way things are now with addons.

If you even hesitate to answer the question, then my point has been made. I'm not saying WoW is "LulzEazy" or that people that play WoW have no skill. I'm saying that it modifies the gameplay experience to make it easier. It's hardly the "Dark Age" of MMO's to prefer less spoon-feeding of content mechanics via 3rd party addons.


You're overlooking a very critical detail...Blizzard has been tuning raid encounters under the assumption that those addons would be in use for years now. If those addons were never made, the encounters wouldn't be tuned the way they are. So yes, if you took the addons away, the encounters would get harder. I won't contest that because we both know it's the truth. It would be one thing, however, for Blizzard to tune raid encounters assuming no addons would be used and then have players bring their ******* of UI tweaks and functionality enhancements. It's another thing entirely when all those tweaks and enhancements were anticipated by the devs and encounters tuned around them. There would be a lot less damage flying around, fewer encounters with very explicit threat conditions, and the overall group performance requirements would likely be lowered. Addons have given Blizzard more diverse options in encounter design, not dumbed down the game. And given that there are still at least two pre-t10 encounters that haven't been cleared by over 90% of guilds worldwide, I'd say that Blizzard has done a fairly adequate job of preserving challenge despite the common use of addons. So let's not **** around anymore, yes?

One company sanctions and supports the use of addons and tunes encounters with them in mind. The other company neither sanctions nore supports the use of addons or third party apps and as a result, they can't tune content under the assumption that those enhancements will be present. In which game will the use of addons have a greater impact on the level of challenge?
#92 May 04 2010 at 3:35 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
It also enabled them to focus on things the players might appreciate, like new content or class balancing. They didn't have to waste time guessing what types of interface improvements players would like to have.


it amuses me no end that they haven't managed yet to balance the classes even after years of ******** with them. it also disgusts me how little new content they have actually produced with the untold billions of dollars they are shoveling in. maybe it's possible they spent those dollars developing other games... like D3 and Starcraft 2... what's more likely?

also, it's pretty incredibly stupid (i'm sorry) to say they would have to guess at what players want -- they had play testers and a healthy alpha/beta.
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#93 May 04 2010 at 4:04 AM Rating: Good
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LaFey wrote:
it amuses me no end that they haven't managed yet to balance the classes even after years of ******** with them.


Yes, because class balance in a complex system is so very simple.

Quote:
it also disgusts me how little new content they have actually produced with the untold billions of dollars they are shoveling in. maybe it's possible they spent those dollars developing other games... like D3 and Starcraft 2... what's more likely?


Or developing later content. Or paying for hardware/software/maintenance. Or paying their staff. Concept artists, modelers, animators, texture artists, programmers, project managers, game designers, producers, voice actors, writers, scripters, marketers, human resource managers, presidents, vice-presidents, CSRs, sysadmins, network admins, QA Analysts, and janitors don't work for free, you know.

Quote:
also, it's pretty incredibly stupid (i'm sorry) to say they would have to guess at what players want -- they had play testers and a healthy alpha/beta.


People generally don't know what they want until they have it. It's a waste of development time for them to offer something to the consumer only for the consumer to go "I don't want that" or "That's not what I wanted" and completely ignore it. By letting the community develop their own addons, it gives them an idea as to the sorts of features that users actually find useful, as people will only use the addons that they find are useful to them.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#94 May 04 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
LaFey wrote:
Quote:
It also enabled them to focus on things the players might appreciate, like new content or class balancing. They didn't have to waste time guessing what types of interface improvements players would like to have.


it amuses me no end that they haven't managed yet to balance the classes even after years of ******** with them. it also disgusts me how little new content they have actually produced with the untold billions of dollars they are shoveling in. maybe it's possible they spent those dollars developing other games... like D3 and Starcraft 2... what's more likely?

also, it's pretty incredibly stupid (i'm sorry) to say they would have to guess at what players want -- they had play testers and a healthy alpha/beta.


I think your idea of class balance and their idea of class balance would be somewhat different. I think you'd also be surprised to find out just how difficult it can be to take a look at any one class in PvE and then look at them in PvP and try to adjust them in one area without affecting them in another. Class balance does not mean all classes are equal. Blizzard has to take a much broader view of the situation than that. Of course, all of the closet critics think, "teehee Blizzards sucks at class balance" makes them look smart. People who know realize just how ignorant a statement like yours really is.

If you take a look at raid zones the size of Ulduar and ICC, you realize that they're pretty much on the same scale as entirely new zones added to the game. When was the last time SE gave players an entirely new zone with a free content patch? Hmmm...Blizzard gave their players two with WotLK...on top of the other 9 + dungeons they gave with the expansion itself. But ignorant natter-monkeys are ignorant, so you just carry on making stupid comments now, mmmkay?
#95 May 04 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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There is a whole lotta bitter tears and broken dreams in this thread... makes me stabby.

I hesitate to add anything, mainly because the trend in this thread at least is to basically degrade a person's opinion to the point of personal attacks. However, I will say this and what follows is my humble opinion (all of it), most of the add-ons that are spawned for any game are done so after the game has had time to evolve and be evaluated. Granted, the entire MMO genre has done so (evolved) as well, and with it many things have become canon to it, such as being able to alt-tab, having a functional UI, customizable key settings, etc. Thankfully, FFXIV is not out and will be fresh when it does get here - hopefully incorporating things we take for granted in MMOs. Add-on / Mods conversations will being in earnest once the game establishes itself. My only concern is that somethings that make the game an actual game will become full automated.

People mention a threat meter a lot in this thread. and I only use it here as an example because its fresh in my mind. I hate to think the actions of my party members would be dictated by a little bell going off to tell them when to stop playing and when to start back up again. (There used to be "feel" for the game in terms of hate, especially in FFXI. You had to "know" when you could loose that sidewinder, or drop a Cure III on the DRK, or when to provoke the mob to give the PLD a window to heal up.) I get how a little ding along with a graphic telling you to take a time out might be appealing to some who think encounters should go smoothly, efficiently, and without consequences, but I believe when a game progresses to that point, then there is no more "game" involved - it becomes Tetris in that the only remaining goal is to get faster and faster until new content comes out and then get that to a point of going faster and faster. Games come with consequences and penalties and successes and rewards and ***** ups and omgwtf moments that leave you talking for days about how the **** you managed to pull out a NM kill with no MP or being the last man standing in and outcome that should not have happened. I play for those moments, not to have some script dictate the most appropriate course of actions that result in winning this many times out of 100.

This is not to say I dismiss add-ons out-of-hand - to do that is to urinate on MMO progression which is just plain silly. I'm just saying I hope that the waters are relatively clean and clear in FFXIV before we dirty them up with stuff. I am sure there will be some things FFXIV will not have that probably should be there, and I hope SE has the good sense to listen closer to their playerbase this time around.
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#96 May 04 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Refews wrote:
Games come with consequences and penalties and successes and rewards and ***** ups and omgwtf moments that leave you talking for days about how the **** you managed to pull out a NM kill with no MP or being the last man standing in and outcome that should not have happened. I play for those moments, not to have some script dictate the most appropriate course of actions that result in winning this many times out of 100.


None of that goes away when addons come into the picture. You're still going to have those moments where you just downed a boss with no MP remaining and less than 5 HP remaining and you'll feel just as awesome as you did in past instances when that happened. You're still going to ***** up too and wipe your raid because you stood in fire while waiting for your spell to cast instead of moving like your raid leader told you to ("But I needed to get my spell off!"). Addons can be used to optimize your gameplay, sure, but they'll never do it for you as part of their normal operation.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#97 May 05 2010 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Sounds like you downed 25-man Heroic Lich King. Care to link your achievement? Maybe show us a screenshot of you dancing in front of the Dalaran bank with your title on?

Or maybe you don't know what the @#%^ you're talking about.


Maybe you don't know what the @#%^ you're talking about...

My Guild reached LK Hero with the 10% Buff...the fight itself isn't hard, its just tuned for max performance from all 25 players...which was not the case in one single **** fight in the whole WotLK Add On...All raids in WotLK have been a complete joke...so stop talking sh*t...wow Blizzard managed to get ONE **** Boss inside the game thats "hard"...try fighting against all Bosses without Boss Mods...and wow amazing...all Bosses got some kind of "difficulty" all of a sudden...Add Ons in WoW trivialize the gameplay...Boss Mods is telling you WHAT the Boss is doing and WHEN it is doing it...and in many cases it is even telling you WHAT you need DO when the Boss is doing something...

Add Ons for purely prestigious reasons are fine...but all Add Ons that trivialize gameplay are just pure BS...and the only ones that are mandatory nowadays in WoW are those triviliazing the gameplay to minimize the need of personal skill and attention...thats a simple fact so don't act like there are people here that don't know sh*t of WoW...

Even using WoW as an example for difficulty completely fails...since BC WoW became a joke and still is one, even with this one little encounter that can be called "hard"...

edit: God Quanta do you even believe the nonsense you're writing here? You sound like the typical WoW Fanboy that defends it whatever happens...Add Ons in WoW...especially those for raiding are not helping to maximize your gameplay performance alone...they are taking over some part of the "thinking" process needed when playing...thats a **** @#%^ing fact...shut off all your Add Ons and see your Guild wiping on Putricide all of a sudden...why? Because everyone had to pay attention for a change and don't need to wait for the Script to tell you when to pay attention...

edit2: Especially the fact that you put youre title of your Main char beside your name clearly shows you're a @#%^ing ePeen *****...Kingslayer...wow you downed him in 25N? Nice achievement...its worth nothing...every guild that was able to clear Ulduar before Colloseum came out is easily able to down him in 25N...

edit3: God Quanta you fail miserably...I just checked your Armory Profile...stop talking here at once...you didn't clear even one **** "Glory of the..." Achievement...despite the fact that you just got "Hero of the Frozen Wastes" when I was already fighting Algalon 25...you fail fail fail fail...please just stop talking...looking at your Armory even makes it more ridiculous...

PS: If you care to look at my Profile in WoW...here it is... http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lordaeron&cn=Vizharan
Edited, May 5th 2010 1:26pm by Shezard

Edited, May 5th 2010 1:28pm by Shezard

Edited, May 5th 2010 1:37pm by Shezard
#98 May 05 2010 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
Shezard wrote:
Quote:
Sounds like you downed 25-man Heroic Lich King. Care to link your achievement? Maybe show us a screenshot of you dancing in front of the Dalaran bank with your title on?

Or maybe you don't know what the @#%^ you're talking about.


Maybe you don't know what the @#%^ you're talking about...


I'm the last person to pooh-pooh references to WoW as a frame of comparison for discussion, but keep your o-boards ******** off these boards.
#99 May 05 2010 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Wow, I must've hit your enrage. Good show.

Quote:
My Guild reached LK Hero with the 10% Buff...the fight itself isn't hard, its just tuned for max performance from all 25 players...which was not the case in one single **** fight in the whole WotLK Add On...All raids in WotLK have been a complete joke...so stop talking sh*t...


I disagree that the fights this expansion have been a joke, but then again, I'm not the same caliber of player as you, and neither is anyone else in my guild, for that matter. We raid 2 nights a week for about 4-5 hours per night, and have been that way since BC. I'm reasonably certain that we could do better if we added on 3 extra nights, but nobody in my guild is that hardcore.

Anyways, let's move on:

Quote:
try fighting against all Bosses without Boss Mods...and wow amazing...all Bosses got some kind of "difficulty" all of a sudden...Add Ons in WoW trivialize the gameplay...Boss Mods is telling you WHAT the Boss is doing and WHEN it is doing it...and in many cases it is even telling you WHAT you need DO when the Boss is doing something...


As hinted in earlier posts, most encounters these days are likely tuned with addons in mind so that their presence doesn't trivialize the encounters. If I'm wrong about that, let me know, but I imagine it's an accurate assessment of how things are.

Quote:
Add Ons for purely prestigious reasons are fine...but all Add Ons that trivialize gameplay are just pure BS...and the only ones that are mandatory nowadays in WoW are those triviliazing the gameplay to minimize the need of personal skill and attention...thats a simple fact so don't act like there are people here that don't know sh*t of WoW...Even using WoW as an example for difficulty completely fails...since BC WoW became a joke and still is one, even with this one little encounter that can be called "hard"...


Who's acting? Until you came along, pretty much everyone here talking against addons and/or the game in general was talking out of their ***. It boggles my mind when someone can condemn WoW for being ezmode and then, in the same breath, praise FFXI for it's difficulty. "Are you ******* kidding me?" is starting to become a catch-phrase for me with the level of stupid coming from these people, so I thank you for actually having a clue.

What was a joke about BC and onward, exactly? The only thing I would have considered "hard" about vanilla's raiding was the logistics of getting 40 people together for even one night on a consistent basis, let alone 5. ****, my guild's been finding it tough to get all 25 people to show up on our raid nights as of late, particularly on Saturdays when it's progression time. Nothing else has really changed though; it's more likely that most people simply got better at the game.

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God Quanta do you even believe the nonsense you're writing here? You sound like the typical WoW Fanboy that defends it whatever happens...


It's more like I'm actually thinking about the argument rather than just launching ad hominems at people who disagree with me.

You're making a good first impression, though. :)

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Add Ons in WoW...especially those for raiding are not helping to maximize your gameplay performance alone...they are taking over some part of the "thinking" process needed when playing...thats a **** @#%^ing fact...shut off all your Add Ons and see your Guild wiping on Putricide all of a sudden...why? Because everyone had to pay attention for a change and don't need to wait for the Script to tell you when to pay attention...


I won't deny that it takes over part of the thinking process, but on the other hand, it lets me shift my attention to other things that I might be doing at the same time, like maximizing my damage output. Because the average person can only focus on so many things at once before something gets forced out (about 7 different items or something like that), you want to make sure that you've eliminated as many distractions as possible; otherwise, you risk losing focus on something important, like a Malleable Goo headed in your direction.

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Especially the fact that you put youre title of your Main char beside your name clearly shows you're a @#%^ing ePeen *****...Kingslayer...wow you downed him in 25N? Nice achievement...its worth nothing...every guild that was able to clear Ulduar before Colloseum came out is easily able to down him in 25N...


Actually, I don't really care about the title as a matter of prestige, or even the achievement. I'm just proud that my guild was able to down him. I keep the title because I like it. I could go back to Champion of the Frozen Wastes if you like. :3

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God Quanta you fail miserably...I just checked your Armory Profile...stop talking here at once...you didn't clear even one **** "Glory of the..." Achievement...despite the fact that you just got "Hero of the Frozen Wastes" when I was already fighting Algalon 25...you fail fail fail fail...please just stop talking...looking at your Armory even makes it more ridiculous...


I don't really care about the achievements, I just want a 310% mount. Hoping to get some guildies together soon to go get Yogg 1-light on 10-man and get it over with.

Anyways, good talking with you. Grats on your kills btw.

P.S. You were on Hades? Neat! So was I. :3
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#100 May 05 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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821 posts
Ok, I have to say I really enraged a bit too much xD

Nothing personal...I just can't stand the talking about WoW being hard and stuff xD
Sure LK Hero is a real hard fight and that's the way it should be IMO, but not everyone is that way. IMO it was only this way during most of the BC Add On the whole time. Except some "trash" Bosses. Vashj, Kael'thas, Archimonde, Illidan and Sunwell as its whole were all kind of LK Hero when they were "new".

Vanilla was not really hard, I agree with that, the biggest problem was managing 40 people(especially the skill lacking ones who didn't stand out as much as nowadays with said Add Ons etc)
If someone has no skill you can easily predict it now with one Raid.

Then there was that really crappy itemization in Vanilla xD There was just a few good equipment parts...mostly after BWL+ came out. But most equip you were wearing had terrible stats in one way or another xD

On the other hand...I wouldn't dare to say FFXI was any harder than WoW ever was/is...it's just different. The biggest difference being the length of average fights and the way you are fighting against the HNMs. But all in all "endgame" in FFXI was more fun to me as it is/was in WoW(except Sunwell Progress...that was the most fun I ever had in WoW)...and for me 3rd Party Add Ons would ruin this for me to a degree.

Sorry again for the "rant" before...I guess I just needed to calm down a little xD

PS: Yeah I've been on Hades til I quit^^
#101 May 05 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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597 posts
Shezard wrote:
Nothing personal...I just can't stand the talking about WoW being hard and stuff xD


No worries. I mean, it's not hard in the sense that there's a steep learning curve or anything like that--after all, accessibility was one of Blizzard's design goals with the game, and they've been very successful in that regard--but it is hard in the sense that you have to have a clear understanding of how your class works, and often how other classes work, and how encounters work, in order to do well in endgame. There's a fair number of people who can't grasp such a concept, and it makes me wonder if they can even tie their own shoes, let alone tank/heal/dps.

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Sure LK Hero is a real hard fight and that's the way it should be IMO, but not everyone is that way. IMO it was only this way during most of the BC Add On the whole time. Except some "trash" Bosses. Vashj, Kael'thas, Archimonde, Illidan and Sunwell as its whole were all kind of LK Hero when they were "new".


That's why I like the hard mode setup, because it means that people who want to be challenged can have their challenge while people who just want to see the big bads die can see them die. Cata's arguably going to be an improvement in this regard, as you'll supposedly be able to choose heroic modes from the get-go.

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Vanilla was not really hard, I agree with that, the biggest problem was managing 40 people(especially the skill lacking ones who didn't stand out as much as nowadays with said Add Ons etc)
If someone has no skill you can easily predict it now with one Raid.


I don't think you even have to take them to a raid. We try to weed out bad players with this question on our application: "Please explain your raiding spec and rotation to us, and why have you itemized your gear the way you have? Please also give us some insight into your glyph selection and what role you feel most comfortable in when you're raiding". It works surprisingly well.

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Then there was that really crappy itemization in Vanilla xD There was just a few good equipment parts...mostly after BWL+ came out. But most equip you were wearing had terrible stats in one way or another xD


Itemization didn't really get any better until BC, and even then it was still slightly off (+Int on Ret gear, for instance). WotLK's itemization is more or less perfect though.

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On the other hand...I wouldn't dare to say FFXI was any harder than WoW ever was/is...it's just different. The biggest difference being the length of average fights and the way you are fighting against the HNMs. But all in all "endgame" in FFXI was more fun to me as it is/was in WoW(except Sunwell Progress...that was the most fun I ever had in WoW)...and for me 3rd Party Add Ons would ruin this for me to a degree.


The difficulty in FFXI is the same thing that made vanilla WoW raiding difficult: finding enough people and getting them organized. What made it arguably worse is that the same logistical nightmare that applied to getting a bunch of people together for a Dynamis run was also present when getting a bunch of people together to just go beat up crabs for their meat, shells, experience, and lunch money. It was perhaps the only reason I couldn't get my poor DRG past 43; the challenge wasn't one of skill, but one of endurance. Just how long would you wait for a group before you decided to go play something else? An hour? 2 hours? 4 hours? Fixing that issue alone is going to make FFXIV tremendously more accessible.

I agree that addons would ruin FFXI, but only because FFXI was never designed with addons in mind, even a little bit. If they had been, I'm certain that the devs would have taken them into account, unless they aren't playing their own game.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
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