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#102 May 05 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
Eels get />_>/




This is the random derail time right?
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I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#103 May 05 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Default
Professor shintasama wrote:
This is the random derail time right?


You're 15 minutes early.
#104 May 05 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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WoW is the only game to allow that kind of freedom with addons that I can recall. I think in addons like deadly boss mods, which basically tells you when the boss is going to do a special move, really takes a large chunk of challenge out of the encounter. I hope SE doesn't allow this type of addon.

This is only because the fights in WoW are scripted. You could memorize most of the way a fight would go if you did it enough times. Being involved in those fights made it seem like I was strictly reactive instead of being involved in something that requires thought then action.

SE could really just copy their current AI from XI. I swear that sometimes mobs were cold, calculating and used some spells/abilities perfectly. An addon like DBM would have no real benefit in XI since all it could tell you was that the mob got 100TP and something was coming. Actually, I used to think that GMs could make mobs perform certain moves to mess with the players. Thanks [GM]Dave!

Since SE is being very interactive with the players this time around, I would like to see some add-on applications developed for all players in their own style. It's a shame to see something great like Windower was to FFXI go generally unaccepted when many of the features would be widely endorsed by the community if SE had just taken the idea and put their own spin on it with a stamp of approval.
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#105 May 05 2010 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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2,890 posts
Bardalicious wrote:
I feel like add ons open more doors for RMT than they do for legitimate players.


Unless your default raid healing interface is disgustingly bad to a point of not being effective in a world where super ultra turbo healing bar whack-a-mole is the norm... I sure hope this wont be the case.. FFXI was pretty easy to heal without these problems for the most part....

Thing is, windower improved FFXI greatly....
As much as I can see why Square would be against such functionality we already all know its going to be the norm whether they like it or not....

Because its too freaking good....
#106 May 05 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Bardalicious wrote:
I feel like add ons open more doors for RMT than they do for legitimate players.


Unless your default raid healing interface is disgustingly bad to a point of not being effective in a world where super ultra turbo healing bar whack-a-mole is the norm... I sure hope this wont be the case.. FFXI was pretty easy to heal without these problems for the most part....

Thing is, windower improved FFXI greatly....
As much as I can see why Square would be against such functionality we already all know its going to be the norm whether they like it or not....

Because its too freaking good....


If SE knows it's going to be the norm, and they still say it's not allowed under the ToS/EULA, do you really think they're going to not ship FFXIV with a sniffer for known third party applications?
#107 May 05 2010 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Bardalicious wrote:
I feel like add ons open more doors for RMT than they do for legitimate players.


Unless your default raid healing interface is disgustingly bad to a point of not being effective in a world where super ultra turbo healing bar whack-a-mole is the norm... I sure hope this wont be the case.. FFXI was pretty easy to heal without these problems for the most part....

Thing is, windower improved FFXI greatly....
As much as I can see why Square would be against such functionality we already all know its going to be the norm whether they like it or not....

Because its too freaking good....


If SE knows it's going to be the norm, and they still say it's not allowed under the ToS/EULA, do you really think they're going to not ship FFXIV with a sniffer for known third party applications?


They might.. thing is it doesn't matter. FFXI had some basic security too if I recall.
Thing is, hackers are hackers and nothing cannot be hacked.

Also dont forget this...
If the majority or a significant chunk of your user base uses a specific 3rd party software device to play your game. You run the risk of alienating them and losing them to a competitor if you remove said functionality..

These two points have been paradigm in the lifespan of windower in FFXI... Maybe things will be different this time around? I wouldn't hold my breath..

Edited, May 5th 2010 10:54pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, May 5th 2010 10:56pm by thorazinekizzez
#108The One and Only Aurelius, Posted: May 05 2010 at 9:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) No, FFXI had no functionality to detect API hooks when I played. If they implemented it since I stopped playing, it was already too late. It would be one thing to suspend/ban tens of thousands of players who had been using the Windower for months without consequence. It would be another thing entirely to ban them in small trickles if/when an FFXIV third party app came into being and send a very clear message that it's not going to work this time around. Hackers can get around it, and SE can update the hash database. ANd if they're not banning outright but tracking violations after hash updates, then they start banning. Then everyone stops and thinks, "Oh ****...they meant it." Then they sob and cry and curse SE, as if SE is responsible for the stupidity of their users.
#109 May 05 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
They might.. thing is it doesn't matter. FFXI had some basic security too if I recall.


No, FFXI had no functionality to detect API hooks when I played.


My understanding is that its next to impossible to actually do this because of the kind of environment that windows provides. Windower doesn't talk to the server.. Its 100% client side. literally 100% impossible to do anything about this kind of activity...

Edited, May 5th 2010 11:32pm by thorazinekizzez
#110The One and Only Aurelius, Posted: May 05 2010 at 9:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's entirely possible. It has already been done.
#111 May 05 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Decent
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2,890 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

It's entirely possible. It has already been done.


Nobody has ever made a hack proof system ever in the history of computers...
Though I guess that the point here is whether it will become the norm.. At which point you may actually be right...

I have a feeling its not going to be the case though..

Edited, May 5th 2010 11:51pm by thorazinekizzez
#112 May 05 2010 at 10:05 PM Rating: Decent
thorazinekizzez wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

It's entirely possible. It has already been done.


Nobody has ever made a hack proof system ever in the history of computers...


We're not talking about hack-proof. We're talking about a system that can detect the presence of all manner of cheats (including things like the Windower) and report back to SE. We're talking about a dynamic system that can be easily updated as third party app developers try to work around the countermeasures. SE didn't have that for FFXI when I played, which is probably a large part of why the Windower was able to get such a foothold within the community. It's also a huge part of the reason that claim-bots became the standard for HNMs. SE has since implemented the (in)famous RMTpwner, and I neither know nor care the scope of what it can actually do. That doesn't mean that they're in any way incapable of including with FFXIV the kind of security measures that could make people thinking they can run unsanctioned third party apps with impunity very sad pandas.

So what you'd end up with (for example) is a scenario where a third party application is released and a handful of people start using it and their account is either flagged or flat out suspended/banned. The application developer realizes that SE is detecting it, makes a few changes and released a new version. For a couple of days/weeks/months/whatever, everyone thinks they're fine...until the security systems are updated and the next wave of suspensions/bans comes out. Then the web lights up with all kinds of indignant forum posts from banned players thinking they're being the righteous snitch when they condemn SE for shipping "spyware" with the game and that they shouldn't have been banned because SE had no right to snoop on them. Then the people who aren't entirely stupid take notice and say, "Well, right or wrong, it's obviously not worth it to try and get by with third party applications.

And then it all blows over. The community has learned their lesson, the game is missing a handful of stupid people from its ranks, and SE can get back to keeping an eye on RMT and pumping out delicious content updates and patches.

Of course, several months later, someone will think that because they haven't heard anything about bannings for stupidity in the recent past, it must be safe to unleash FFXIVVindower 3.0. And another cluster of stupid people get banned.

See how that works? The goal isn't to prevent the unsanctioned behavior from happening in the first place...the goal is provide systems that can detect it and deal with it in an efficient manner. And the best defense to prevent from getting caught up in the bannings? Don't be stupid. SE says don't use it? Don't. The "I should be able to tab out" issue will not be an issue in FFXIV. Players will have no excuse. And like the dumbass here a few weeks ago telling people PC will be best for FFXIV (vs. PS3) because you can get all the hacks for PC and mod dats for better NM claiming yadda yadda, people using third party applications and getting banned for them will deserve it.

Edited, May 6th 2010 7:39am by Aurelius
#113 May 06 2010 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
If someone was really determined they could write code (or hardware for that matter, there are some ******** programmable keyboards) that doesn't interact with the FFXIV system at all, making it undetectable by SE. There is always a way around whatever countermeasures if people really want to cheat. DRM, rootkits, and other increasingly restrictive "big brother" behavior is a poor path to take.

The better method is to design the game w/o bullsh*t like "claiming" HNM and make players rely on their own wits to get through difficult to predict, constantly adapting encounters ("instanced" fights optional but helpful). Players don't get ****** because X has Y gear, players get ****** because X prevented them from having a shot at getting Y gear.

Edited, May 6th 2010 12:16pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#114 May 06 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
Professor shintasama wrote:
If someone was really determined they could write code (or hardware for that matter, there are some ******** programmable keyboards) that doesn't interact with the FFXIV system at all, making it undetectable by SE. There is always a way around whatever countermeasures if people really want to cheat. DRM, rootkits, and other increasingly restrictive "big brother" behavior is a poor path to take.


It doesn't necessarily have to interect with FFXIV to be something that can be detected.

Here's the issue as I see it. Players complain about RMT. It's not a phenomenon that is restricted to FFXI, though FFXI players seem to be the most uptight about it (and perhaps with good reason). They want the devs of their MMO of choice to address RMT quickly and efficiently. They want RMT shut out of their games entirely, if possible. They don't want farm bots, they don't want chat spam. They definnitely don't want to have their accounts hacked by RMT. ****, if they identify a group of players as RMT, they want those players gone even if they're farming legitimately (ie. no cheats/hacks to obtain the in-game currency they turn around and sell to other players.)

But then, at the exact same time, there's a rather significant group of players that is all too happy to kvetch mightily about RMT while simultaneously demanding that the doors to unscrupulous RMT behavior be kept open. "We don't want RMT, but you'd **** well better not keep me from using non-RMT related third party applications. **** you and your ToS/EULA. I'm not selling virtual currency for real money. Leave me alone."

Cake on table. Cake in mouth?

**** the cake. Here's a reality check...decide which is more important: helping a developer address RMT/cheaters by following the rules and keeping things simple for them, or running your third party applications with impunity. You can't have both. The "big brother" behavior tends to only impact people who deserve to be impacted, if you get my meaning. If you're not doing anything wrong, the chances of being scooped up in the anti-RMT/cheater dragnet is extremely slim, and it's a **** of a lot better than automated systems that track player activity in-game and issue sweeping insta-bans.

If you can identify and root out the third party applications that allow people to automate game activity, the guy who just has a lot of time on his hands and a phenomenal amount of patience can strip mine a zone for 18 hours straight and not have to worry about a ban for it. It also opens the doors to tracking the flow of gil for RMT operations. If you've got a cluster of accounts flagged for use of third party apps and their gil is funneled to certain specific accounts and then passed out in large amounts to other players, you can shut down the entire chain much more easily than trying to track in-game behaviors over time.

If you can window/tab out of the game and the UI allows for adequate customization, there is no need for third party applications. If there is no need for them and the ToS/EULA says they're not allowed, there's no excuse to be using them. If SE doesn't support user-made addons, people will probably want to get used to the idea of playing the game with the tools SE gives them to tweak and customize and set aside any hopeful notions of "enhancing" their game experience with third party applications.
#115 May 06 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
It doesn't necessarily have to interect with FFXIV to be something that can be detected.
SE can't keep tabs on hardware, SE can't shouldn't have access to other files/programs on my computer, SE can't magically know every new RMT developed software.
Quote:
Cake on table. Cake in mouth?

There is no @#%^ing "you can't have your cake and eat it too" here. Even if SE completely blocked every add-on there would still be RMT. Add-ons don't magically cause or remove RMT threat, RMT are perfectly capable of gaming the system only using whats currently available to players. If you have an insect problem you don't burn down your house and everyone inside to get rid of them. You get an exterminator for targeted attacks to kill what's there, and don't leave easy food around to attract more.

If SE really wants to minimalize RMT activity they should take steps to make it an unattractive option for them and players.

-make the best gear/items r/e
-don't include ridiculous crap like relic weapons that take years of farming with trade/purchasable items
-up the fight difficulty, not the claim difficulty
-more instanced fights/activities
-more spawns
-higher player interaction during crafting/mining/fishing/etc
-more opportunities for player cooperation rather than competition
-allow for players of all jobs/professions to be able to make a reasonable amount of money without drastic measures
-decrease the jump between "absolute best" gear and "average" gear
-reward players for time spent/skill, not luck (ie. in game "point" systems)
-don't allow free/trial accounts to trade/whisper/shout/etc
-ban accounts that RMT shout/whisper
-provide easy player activity reporting
-monitor accounts with large amounts of gil transfers
-monitor/crackdown on account selling
-take legal action against RMT outlets
-provide a SE sponsored/maintained/monitored outlet for player developed add-ons to discourage people from going elsewhere
-provide easy access to information on secure sites

edit: a couple more suggestions

Edited, May 6th 2010 4:02pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#116 May 06 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Default
Professor shintasama wrote:
Quote:
It doesn't necessarily have to interect with FFXIV to be something that can be detected.
SE can't keep tabs on hardware, SE can't shouldn't have access to other files/programs on my computer, SE can't magically know every new RMT developed software.


I think you've missed the point. They can't magically know every RMT developed software, but they can find out about it. I've already clarified this. The systems used in other MMO platforms don't prevent third party applications from functioning at all. They identify known applications and report them, and the database that is used to identify those applications can be updated as new applications are found.

Quote:
Quote:
Cake on table. Cake in mouth?

There is no @#%^ing "you can't have your cake and eat it too" here. Even if SE completely blocked every add-on there would still be RMT.


Again...I've clarified this. I haven't said it will prevent RMT altogether, I've said that it is an extremely effective tool for addressing RMT and cheaters. It's not a pre-emptive measure, it's a means for identifying the use of known third party applications. But you'd have to be awfully silly to suggest that a game that can't detect third party applications is in any way as secure as a game that can, and if you want the best possible solution for RMT it starts with not expecting developers to leave gaping holes in security that can be exploited. If you can use it to tweak your UI or run scripts, RMT and cheaters can use it to do other not-so-benign things.

Quote:
If you have an insect problem you don't burn down your house and everyone inside to get rid of them. You get an exterminator for targeted attacks to kill what's there, and don't leave easy food around to attract more.


Exactly. And do you know what a good exterminator is going to do once they've addressed the offending bugs? They're going to seal up the holes in the strucutre of the building that allowed the nasties to enter in the first place. And if you have an RMT/cheater problem, you would be well served to implement solutions that let you track down how they're getting past the coded security features of the client. Claim botting wasn't done without the help of an external application. Nor are speed hacks or farm bots.

Quote:
If SE really wants to minimalize RMT activity they should take steps to make it an unattractive option for them and players.

-make the best gear/items r/e
-don't include ridiculous crap like relic weapons that take years of farming with trade/purchasable items
-up the fight difficulty, not the claim difficulty
-more instanced fights/activities
-more spawns
-more opportunities for player cooperation rather than competition
-allow for players of all jobs/professions to be able to make a reasonable amount of money without drastic measures
-decrease the jump between "absolute best" gear and "average" gear
-reward players for time spent/skill, not luck (ie. in game "point" systems)
-don't allow free/trial accounts to trade/whisper/shout/etc
-ban accounts that RMT shout/whisper
-provide easy player activity reporting
-monitor accounts with large amounts of gil transfers
-monitor/crackdown on account selling
-take legal action against RMT outlets
-provide a SE sponsored/maintained/monitored outlet for player developed add-ons to discourage people from going elsewhere


What you just described is WoW, and Blizzard has one of the most robust application/mod detection applets in the MMO industry today. Do you really think Blizzard would subject themselves to the criticism they received for developing/shipping Warden if everything you listed was enough to deal with the issue?
#117 May 06 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
They can't magically know every RMT developed software, but they can find out about it.
I'm saying if RMT want to be non-obvious (stupid sh*t like speed/pos hacks being ridiculously obvious) about it then SE can't detect it short of looking at and dissecting every other piece of software/hardware running which is completely unfeasible. It's much better to address the real source of the problem by other means.
Quote:
I've said that it is an extremely effective tool for addressing RMT
and I'm saying it's not.
Quote:
Exactly. And do you know what a good exterminator is going to do once they've addressed the offending bugs? They're going to seal up the holes in the strucutre of the building that allowed the nasties to enter in the first place.
Ridiculously restrictive rules and DRM don't hurt RMT nearly as much as players. If you kill off or drive away the inhabitants of the house there is no point in plugging the holes. This is a massive difference between preventing basic botting/making things unfavorable for RMT and going on player witchhunts/installing spyware/completely preventing any customization.
Quote:
What you just described is WoW, and Blizzard has one of the most robust application/mod detection applets in the MMO industry today.
and outside of Warden, WoW has the best overall systems I've seen for discouraging RMT activity I've seen (in stark contrast to SE's horrible job of handling RMT). For the amount of players/market share the RMT activity is very low, while FFXI is horrible. I've never met anyone in WoW that I knew/thought bought gold, while I know of several in FFXI who have been tempted or I suspect did at some point. There is just not a lot of reason to buy gold in WoW, it's fairly plentiful and not incredibly useful. WoW also allows for sponsored add-ons and whatnot, which is what I'm arguing for in the first place. FFXI's overly restrictive system drove more people to unauthorized (and vulnerable) software, and it's gameplay made it an easy target for botting/RMT activities.
Quote:
Do you really think Blizzard would subject themselves to the criticism they received for developing/shipping Warden if everything you listed was enough to deal with the issue?
I think that the amount of illicit activity cut down by Warden that couldn't be addressed via other means isn't worth imposing that level of spyware on your customers. It's perfectly possible to cut down on crime w/o turning your game into a police state. Blizzard obviously disagrees.

Edited, May 6th 2010 4:03pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#118 May 06 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Default
Professor shintasama wrote:
Quote:
They can't magically know every RMT developed software, but they can find out about it.
I'm saying if RMT want to be non-obvious (stupid sh*t like speed/pos hacks being ridiculously obvious) about it then SE can't detect it short of looking at and dissecting every other piece of software/hardware running which is completely unfeasible. It's much better to address the real source of the problem by other means.


The real source of the problem being...???

And if it was that easy, why hasn't SE done it? And if SE has done it, why are so many FFXI players still so uptight about RMT?

Quote:
Quote:
I've said that it is an extremely effective tool for addressing RMT
and I'm saying it's not.


A multi-billion dollar company would be inclined to disagree with you, I'm sure.

Quote:
Quote:
Exactly. And do you know what a good exterminator is going to do once they've addressed the offending bugs? They're going to seal up the holes in the strucutre of the building that allowed the nasties to enter in the first place.
Ridiculously restrictive rules and DRM don't hurt RMT nearly as much as players. If you kill off or drive away the inhabitants of the house there is no point in plugging the holes. This is a massive difference between preventing basic botting/making things unfavorable for RMT and going on player witchhunts/installing spyware/completely preventing any customization.


If the inhabitants of the house are leaving the lid off their ant farm, they'd be pretty freakin' stupid to complain about ants, wouldn't they?

Quote:
Quote:
Do you really think Blizzard would subject themselves to the criticism they received for developing/shipping Warden if everything you listed was enough to deal with the issue?
I think that the amount of illicit activity cut down by Warden that couldn't be addressed via other means isn't worth imposing that level of spyware on your customers. It's perfectly possible to cut down on crime w/o turning your game into a police state. Blizzard obviously disagrees.


You haven't presented any workable alternatives. And you haven't really presented any legitimate reason to overlook the ToS/EULA. SE says don't use third party applications. There's nothing you can do or say that can convince me that there's any legitimate reason to ignore that. And if you don't want to follow the rules, there may well be consequences. Which, if you're prepared to accept those consequences, is not something I would really care all that much about. And if FFXIV ships with a detection applet and if people get banned for ignoring the rules, regardless of their intent, they can expect a healthy dose of mockery from me if they're stupid enough to complain about it.
#119 May 07 2010 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
And if it was that easy, why hasn't SE done it?
They have. There was an idiot in one of my EX-LS CoP Groups that POS hacked that rock race thing and got bant almost instantaneously, and my friend had a PT member speed hack to get to camp and was picked up by a GM within 15min. Whats harder to detect/prove are things like RMT fisherman, 6xBLMs on Auto-follow, or a mining mule at every spawn, all of which are perfectly doable and easily exploitable without the use of any 3rd party apps. Just adding a auto-ban program doesn't work, you need to fix the actual systemic/gameplay problems (the "real" problem) to decrease exploitability without @#%^ing over the playerbase with overly restrictive ******** like "no atl-tabbing" or "no-UI changes".

Edited, May 7th 2010 1:20pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#120The One and Only Aurelius, Posted: May 07 2010 at 11:38 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If it's doable without third party apps, it's not against the rules. And if you try to detect behaviors that aren't against the rules but may or may not be an indication of RMT behaviors, you ended up banning hundreds of legit players for having grow-ops on their alts.
#121 May 07 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Professor shintasama wrote:
Quote:
And if it was that easy, why hasn't SE done it?
They have. There was an idiot in one of my EX-LS CoP Groups that POS hacked that rock race thing and got bant almost instantaneously, and my friend had a PT member speed hack to get to camp and was picked up by a GM within 15min. Whats harder to detect/prove are things like RMT fisherman, 6xBLMs on Auto-follow, or a mining mule at every spawn, all of which are perfectly doable and easily exploitable without the use of any 3rd party apps. Just adding a auto-ban program doesn't work, you need to fix the actual systemic/gameplay problems (the "real" problem) to decrease exploitability without @#%^ing over the playerbase with overly restrictive bullsh*t like "no atl-tabbing" or "no-UI changes".


If it's doable without third party apps, it's not against the rules. And if you try to detect behaviors that aren't against the rules but may or may not be an indication of RMT behaviors, you ended up banning hundreds of legit players for having grow-ops on their alts.

You realize that we're talking about FFXIV on these boards and not FFXI, yes? So why you'd be worried about not being able to alt-tab is beyond me. Why you'd be worried about not being able to customize the UI to some degree is beyond me. If you're worried about being able to add functionality to the UI that the stock game doesn't allow, you're cheating. It doesn't matter what your intentions are...you're asking for your ability to bend the rules to your liking be preserved while simultaneously demanding that SE be vigilant in rooting out RMT. Suit yourself, but again...don't expect a warm welcome here if you get yourself lolbant and come around sniveling about it.
Are you going to keep purposefully ignoring the part where I said I want SE to allow/sponsor/maintain/host user created add-ons like Blizzard has done (quite successfully), so that they don't end up with the same type of problems they've had before? Because that's kind of my point, and you just keep building that straw man.

Edited, May 7th 2010 2:59pm by shintasama
____________________________
Quote:
I don't believe in good guys versus bad guys anymore… I only see a plethora of states acting in self interest… with varying ethics and moral standards of course, but self-interest nonetheless
Winston Churchill wrote:
Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things
#122 May 07 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Default
Professor shintasama wrote:
Are you going to keep purposefully ignoring the part where I said I want SE to allow/sponsor/maintain/host user created add-ons like Blizzard has done (quite successfully),


Yes, I am, because I'm not talking about dev supported addons, I'm talking about unsanctioned third party utilities. FFXIV is NOT going to support sanctioned user created addons. You can quote me on that. It's a cross-platform MMO, and maintaining a level playing field between the different platforms will be difficult enough without trying to port user-created addons across those platforms.
#123 May 08 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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214 posts
Wow at Shezard :Z

I do agree to some extent that WoW isn't hard, but it is if you play with idiots and/or casual players, there is a much bigger margin of error than FF11 because the gameplay is much faster paced, Cue Addons.
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#124 May 08 2010 at 9:51 PM Rating: Default
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2,890 posts
There is zero evidence that user made addons will not be created and used with a fairly high degree of success in FFXIV. From what Aikar has said himself in the past Windower is virtually undetectable unless Square makes it so the client searches your computer for questionable software.

We should also strive to raise the quality of posts here and strongly suggest only experienced programmers continue this particular topic. ( Unless you just have questions ect)

Edited, May 8th 2010 11:52pm by thorazinekizzez
#125 May 08 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Default
thorazinekizzez wrote:
There is zero evidence that user made addons will not be created and used with a fairly high degree of success in FFXIV. From what Aikar has said himself in the past Windower is virtually undetectable unless Square makes it so the client searches your computer for questionable software.

We should also strive to raise the quality of posts here and strongly suggest only experienced programmers continue this particular topic. ( Unless you just have questions ect)


Hi, let me introduce you to the 21st century.

Warden

Source.

Quote:
The things Warden currently looks for in-process includes but is not limited to:

* Exploitative model edits
* Known cheat modules (DLLs)
* Known modifications to game functions
* Known cheating addons
* Speedhacks
* Known API hooks from cheats

The things Warden currently looks for out-of-process includes but is not limited to:

* Known cheating drivers (rootkits)


PunkBuster (more for FPS but illustrates the point)

Source.

Quote:
Published features

* Real-time scanning of memory, a feature also prominent in many spyware programs, by placing a PunkBuster Client on players' computers searching for known hacks/cheats using a built-in database.
* Throttled two-tiered background auto-update system using multiple Internet Master Servers to provide end-user security ensuring that no false or corrupted updates can be installed on players' computers.
* Frequent status reports (encrypted) are sent to the PunkBuster Server by all players. When necessary, the PunkBuster Server raises a violation which (depending upon settings) will cause the offending player to be removed from the game and all other players to be informed of the violation.
* PunkBuster Admins can also manually remove players from the game for a specified number of minutes or permanently ban if desired.
* PunkBuster Servers can optionally be configured to randomly check player settings looking for known exploits of the game engine.
* PunkBuster Servers can be configured to instruct clients to calculate partial MD5 hashes of files inside the game installation directory. The results are compared against a set configuration and differences logged, and optionally, the client removed from the server.
* PunkBuster Admins can request actual screenshot samples from specific players and/or can configure the PB Server to randomly grab screenshot samples from players during gameplay. However, it is possible for a game hack to block screenshots (producing a black screenshot) or remove all visual features of a hack (cleaning the screenshot) to remain undetected, leaving the effectiveness of this feature diminished.
* An optional "bad name" facility is provided so that PunkBuster Admins can prevent players from using offensive player names containing unwanted profanity or racial slurs.
* Search functions are provided for PunkBuster Admins who wish to search player's keybindings and scripts for anything that may be known to exploit the game.
* The PunkBuster Player Power facility can be configured to allow players to self-administer game servers when the Server Administrator is not present entirely without the need for passwords, in which the players can call votes to have a player removed from the server for a certain amount of time.
* PunkBuster Servers have an optional built-in mini HTTP web server interface that allows the game server to be remotely administered via a web browser from anywhere over the Internet.
* PunkBuster Admins can stream their server logs in real time to another location. Non-profit organizations like Anti-Cheat Inc, Airdale Ops Network, PunksBusted , PBBans and AASA are examples of groups that use this feature to create shared banlists for their members.
* PunkBuster has initiated Punkbuster Hardware Bans, that bans hardware components upon detection of cheats that disrupt or circumvent PunkBuster's normal operation.


In other words, these applications have seen use. Given the grief SE got over RMT and cheating in FFXI, and how they're no doubt aware that a great many end-game LSes resorted to botting just so that they wouldn't get shut out of competitive claims by shells with fewer scruples, SE would be foolish to not ship something similar to existing anti-cheat applications.

When you're done being ignorant, go on ahead and post a reply. Thanks.
#126 May 08 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
3 posts
i have played FFXI a long time and i have played wow as well.
To say that wow add on's dont change the game is not entierly correct.
If you think about people with add ons versus people without then there are these concerns.
add ons that track what FF would refer to NM mobs
add ons that let you keep track of entire auction house and even auto sell stuff for you below listed pricing to under cut people
addon to track ah and tell you if crafting an item is profatabal and how mutch you can undercut compatition allowing you to controle the auction house entierly.
there is no way Square will ever allow adds

Edited, May 9th 2010 12:45am by chafarr
#127 May 08 2010 at 10:24 PM Rating: Default
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2,890 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

In other words, these applications have seen use. Given the grief SE got over RMT and cheating in FFXI, and how they're no doubt aware that a great many end-game LSes resorted to botting just so that they wouldn't get shut out of competitive claims by shells with fewer scruples, SE would be foolish to not ship something similar to existing anti-cheat applications.

When you're done being ignorant, go on ahead and post a reply. Thanks.


Yes this software does exist.
Yes it is used to stop speed hacks and aimbots in completely different games and environments.
Are the above systems specifically designed to prevent custom user interface software in an MMO environment? Currently the answer appears to be no.

I suggest you name the Square Enix employees who have told you they will be using this software. And until you can prove that FFXIV will be using this software and that it will be specifically re engineered to prevent floating UI windows that run separately from the main executable itself your point is moot.

I suggest you stop posting useless garbage arguing with people like the worthless inexperienced noob that you are.
BAM done....

edit: also too, if you want to make your claims sound a little better at least post your experience in programing and game security/hacking.

Edited, May 9th 2010 12:28am by thorazinekizzez
#128 May 08 2010 at 10:29 PM Rating: Default
3 posts
To add to what i said erlier about add-on's
I did play wow and enjoyed it however you can not compair wow to FF gaming they are completly diferent
it would be like me saying wow is all about DPS and no 1 debufs or uses any skills at all.
threat meters and dps meters and heal bot adds just arent necasary in the kind of interface FF offers us.
its not all about being 100% leet all the time
its a story and adventure and a palce to make lasting friends.
if that isent fast paced enugh for some gamers or leet enugh for them i say dont bother posting go play wow


Edited, May 9th 2010 12:47am by chafarr
#129 May 08 2010 at 10:32 PM Rating: Decent
thorazinekizzez wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

In other words, these applications have seen use. Given the grief SE got over RMT and cheating in FFXI, and how they're no doubt aware that a great many end-game LSes resorted to botting just so that they wouldn't get shut out of competitive claims by shells with fewer scruples, SE would be foolish to not ship something similar to existing anti-cheat applications.

When you're done being ignorant, go on ahead and post a reply. Thanks.


Yes this software does exist.
Yes it is used to stop speed hacks and aimbots in completely different games and environments.
Are the above systems specifically designed to prevent custom user interface software in an MMO environment? Currently the answer appears to be no.


Warden was developed by Blizzard for WoW. So currently, the answer is yes. That little line from the quote I posted about cheating addons? Ya...guess what a third party app to customize a UI in a game that outright forbids the use of third party applications with the game would be classified as?

Quote:
I suggest you name the Square Enix employees who have told you they will be using this software. And until you can prove that FFXIV will be using this software and that it will be specifically re engineered to prevent floating UI windows that run separately from the main executable itself your point is moot.


It's called "precedent". You might want to look into it.

Quote:
I suggest you stop posting useless garbage arguing with people like the worthless inexperienced noob that you are.
BAM done....


Smiley: lol


Edited, May 8th 2010 9:35pm by Aurelius
#130 May 08 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,890 posts
chafarr wrote:
i have played SSXI a long time and i have played wow as well.
To say that wow add on's dont change the game is not entierly correct.
If you think about people with add ons versus people without then there are these concerns.
add ons that track what FF would refer to NM mobs
add ons that let you keep track of entire auction house and even auto sell stuff for you below listed pricing to under cut people
addon to track ah and tell you if crafting an item is profatabal and how mutch you can undercut compatition allowing you to controle the auction house entierly.
there is no way Square will ever allow adds


I agree with you on this. They change the game a **** of allot..

While on this topic, has anyone here ever actually got a definitive answer on whether or not Square isn't already working on a system to allow user made addons across all platforms? Its not impossible to do from my experience with these systems. It would just take some forethought to make the systems work correctly.

Anyone have a definitive answer on this?
( No speculation please )
#131 May 08 2010 at 10:38 PM Rating: Default
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2,890 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Warden was developed by Blizzard for WoW. So currently, the answer is yes. That little line from the quote I posted about cheating addons? Ya...guess what a third party app to customize a UI in a game that outright forbids the use of third party applications with the game would be classified as


Oh so warden prevents me from changing things not related to game play in WoW?
Considering their entire UI is customizable and all..

Christ man do you ever shut up?
#132 May 08 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Decent
thorazinekizzez wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Warden was developed by Blizzard for WoW. So currently, the answer is yes. That little line from the quote I posted about cheating addons? Ya...guess what a third party app to customize a UI in a game that outright forbids the use of third party applications with the game would be classified as


Oh so warden prevents me from changing things not related to game play in WoW?
Considering their entire UI is customizable and all..

Christ man do you ever shut up?


Read it again, sporty. It detects things that the developer doesn't want being used. We're not talking about WoW...we're talking about FFXIV. I used Warden as an example of PRECEDENT. If SE says, "No third party utilities/addons", ANYTHING that interfaces with XIV in ANY WAY can be detected.
#133 May 08 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Default
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2,890 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Read it again, sporty. It detects things that the developer doesn't want being used. We're not talking about WoW...we're talking about FFXIV. I used Warden as an example of PRECEDENT. If SE says, "No third party utilities/addons", ANYTHING that interfaces with XIV in ANY WAY can be detected.


Well start doing some digging man. Im sure you can figure out through your extensive experience on this topic if something like Warden will be used in FFXIV. Facts please! facts only! Considering that warden is not designed to prevent modified raid UIs and auctioneer...

Also make sure to write up a lengthy document explicitly showing how it will be 100% impossible to bypass said new software if it even exists! You must be so awesome at this stuff you can see into the future!

Aurelius Awesome programmer/hacker
Aurelius Sage of time magic

Edited, May 9th 2010 12:53am by thorazinekizzez
#134 May 08 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Default
thorazinekizzez wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Read it again, sporty. It detects things that the developer doesn't want being used. We're not talking about WoW...we're talking about FFXIV. I used Warden as an example of PRECEDENT. If SE says, "No third party utilities/addons", ANYTHING that interfaces with XIV in ANY WAY can be detected.


Well start doing some digging man. Im sure you can figure out through your extensive experience on this topic if something like Warden will be used in FFXIV. Facts please! facts only! Considering that warden is not designed to prevent modified raid UIs and auctioneer...


You don't understand what precedent means, do you?

Quote:
Also make sure to write up a lengthy document explicitly showing how it will be 100% impossible to bypass said new software if it even exists! You must be so awesome at this stuff you can see into the future!


I've already clarified in this thread how the software works.

Eidt: Hang in there, kids...he's off looking up precedent. Then he'll be back with another dumbass commentary that will prompt me to reveal the full scope of his stupidity for all to see. Stay tuned...

Edited, May 8th 2010 10:04pm by Aurelius
#135 May 08 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Default
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2,890 posts
And nothing.. LOL
dude post some facts man, tired of this speculation on a topic you have zero experience with.
I'm bored man post some code or something! I mean you do realize you are trying to build a house with no foundation by saying you know that SE is going to prevent windower 100% and that the precedents set by punk buster and Warden are infallible. Currently I am not even sure if we know what SEs stance is going to be come RC1.

When only a few minutes ago I just saw a dude under the terrain in wintergrasp flying at nearly light speed mining and herbing nodes from under the **** terrain.. I mean yeah that's awesome stuff this warden thing is.. You fail noob give up posting garbage..

anyway im done...
Night guys

"Eidt: Hang in there, kids...he's off looking up precedent. Then he'll be back with another dumbass commentary that will prompt me to reveal the full scope of his stupidity for all to see. Stay tuned..."

PFFT HAHAHAHA!!!!

edit: yes I realize I am a ****** even if I win one of these things.. Still was fun though.. especially the part when a titanium node was stolen by a light speed dude under the terrain while talking about how full proof warden is... classic!

Edited, May 9th 2010 1:11am by thorazinekizzez
#136 May 08 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
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2,232 posts
Quote:
When only a few minutes ago I just saw a dude under the terrain in wintergrasp flying at nearly light speed mining and herbing nodes from under the **** terrain.. I mean yeah that's awesome stuff this warden thing is.. You fail noob give up posting garbage..


Can you report people in WoW to like a GM or something? If so, did you?
____________________________
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Server: Ultros
FC: The Kraken Club

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#137 May 09 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Decent
thorazinekizzez wrote:
And nothing.. LOL
dude post some facts man, tired of this speculation on a topic you have zero experience with.


Weren't you the one who said it would be 100% impossible for SE to ever detect anything that was going on client side and that's why there would be third party applications whether SE allowed them or not? Why yes, yes it was:

thorazinekizzez wrote:
My understanding is that its next to impossible to actually do this because of the kind of environment that windows provides. Windower doesn't talk to the server.. Its 100% client side. literally 100% impossible to do anything about this kind of activity...


So with all of your apparently vast knowledge of all things, how did that one get by you?

You can always tell when someone is grasping at straws to preserve their argument. I've demonstrated precedent for third party security applications shipped with games to tighten up the client-side security against hacks and cheats. I've given general descriptions of how these work and are updated to preserve that security throughout the lifespan of the game. You've...countered with what, exactly? Nothing, I think. Ya...that about sums it up. You've countered with nothing. I mean, I could understand if client-side security applets were a new thing, but they've been around in a variety of games and with varying levels of sophistication for over a decade now. It's not new.

So then we get to this thing that you still haven't addressed (not that I'm surprised, because you haven't addressed...anything)...precedent. Do we know for sure that FFXIV is not going to support user-created third party addons? No. Do all signs point to the likelihood that they won't be supported? Yes. Assuming SE wanted to put the development time into an addon developer's toolkit that would allow ports across PC, PS3, and potentially XBox, plus the cost to maintain and update that toolkit, you've still got to address just how many extra resources the PS3/XBox may or may not have to run said third party applications. Hint: If user-created addons in WoW could slow down beefy PCs if they were extremely robust and/or poorly coded, they'd be capable of bringing a console to a near grinding halt. Just how much of the PS3's whopping 512mb of RAM do you think SE would be willing to sacrifice for the sake of user created addons, anyways? In short, it would be a substantial headache for SE to stay on top of. Far moreso than a PC-only MMO, and as has already been pointed out, if they can't preserve a level playing field across all platfors while supporting user created addons, they can't support user created addons.

So then we get into security for client-side detection of non-sanctioned applications which, in this case, would be pretty much anything. UI overlays, hacks/cheats, whatever...if there's no allowances for third party applications in the ToS/EULA (which, if user created addons aren't supported, you can bet your bottom dollar third party apps will be strictly forbidden in the ToS/EULA), then ANYTHING anyone comes up with, regardless of intended purpose, would fall under the auspices of the "NO!" clause. It doesn't matter how Warden treated sanctioned addons in WoW...we're not talking about WoW. I've demonstrated to you with abundant clarity that it's entirely possible (contrary to your previous ignorant statement) to monitor client-side applications for violations. And whether it's something SE develops in-house or licenses from another vendor, client-side security is by no means an uncommon thing.

So instead of strawmanning the sh*t out of the argument because accepting the reality would be too painful for you, how about you present an intelligent counter-argument? I don't give a rat's *** how much of an uber-coder you seem to want to think you are...you're wrong.

There will be NO addon developer toolkit offered by SE. That means there will be NO sanctioned third party applications for FFXIV, and it IS possible for an MMO developer to detect the presence of ANY third party applications that interface with the game in any way. If you want to try your luck and risk getting your account banned over nothing, by all means...be my guest. Someone is going to test the waters...why not you, right? Just try not to get a bunch of other uninformed people nuked right along with you, k?

And lastly, don't be an ***. When you put words in my mouth, you just look like even more of a moron. I've never claimed any detection suite to be "infallible". I've said that they're highly effective and sooner or later, any third party app CAN be detected.


Edited, May 8th 2010 11:08pm by Aurelius
#138The One and Only Aurelius, Posted: May 09 2010 at 12:06 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You can...it's an issue they're already aware of. They've had hit-and-miss success in dealing with the issue. Every time they update Warden to detect the hack that's allowing people to travel under the terrain and gather from nodes, it's just a matter of time before the hack app is tweaked to evade detection and they're back at it. Of course, the accounts using the detected version of the hack got banned. If it was regluar users cheating, they'd be long gone. RMT are persistent, however, which is why it's an off-and-on issue.
#139 May 09 2010 at 1:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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2,232 posts
Quote:
You can...it's an issue they're already aware of. They've had hit-and-miss success in dealing with the issue. Every time they update Warden to detect the hack that's allowing people to travel under the terrain and gather from nodes, it's just a matter of time before the hack app is tweaked to evade detection and they're back at it. Of course, the accounts using the detected version of the hack got banned. If it was regluar users cheating, they'd be long gone. RMT are persistent, however, which is why it's an off-and-on issue.


So, it becomes a matter of catch up. The add-on gets tweaked, the RMT creates a new account, Warden finds it, and on and on.

It's a shame that so many resources have to be devoted to jackass prevention.

____________________________
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Server: Ultros
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Outshined

Teneleven wrote:
We secretly replaced your tank wemelchor with Foldgers Crystal's. Let's see what happens.

#140 May 09 2010 at 1:59 AM Rating: Default
LebargeX wrote:
Quote:
You can...it's an issue they're already aware of. They've had hit-and-miss success in dealing with the issue. Every time they update Warden to detect the hack that's allowing people to travel under the terrain and gather from nodes, it's just a matter of time before the hack app is tweaked to evade detection and they're back at it. Of course, the accounts using the detected version of the hack got banned. If it was regluar users cheating, they'd be long gone. RMT are persistent, however, which is why it's an off-and-on issue.


So, it becomes a matter of catch up. The add-on gets tweaked, the RMT creates a new account, Warden finds it, and on and on.

It's a shame that so many resources have to be devoted to jackass prevention.



I agree. Something I've noticed, however, is that people tend not to care so much about RMT in WoW. That's not to say they don't mind RMT, but RMT has a much less substantial impact on the game. Part of that is the way the game is tuned. A big part of it is the measures Blizzard takes to combat RMT. Warden created quite a stir when it was first discovered by the playerbase. A lot of that was uninformed speculation thinking that Blizzard was receiving directory listings of all of its users **** and pirated software. In reality, it's nowhere near that level of invasiveness. Generally speaking, if you can demonstrate positive results in addressing RMT with a bare minimum of consequences to legitimate players, those players will be willing to readily accept something like Warden because it's proven to create a benefit.

I was surprised to read about the extent to which the botting in FFXI had grown over the years since my departure. Linkshells soliciting donations from members so they could come up with the $2500 for a Nasa bot. That's pretty bad. Actually, it's ******* terrible. I can't fathom it, really. Imagine a smaller shell of 18-20 players who had the skill to kill competitive spawn HNMs but have to pony up over $100 each for the bot that gives them a snowball's chance in **** of getting the claim. And they keep nuzzling SE's nuts and forking out $13US + alts to play the game.

Smiley: oyvey

SE had better have learned their lesson this time around. All the bright shinies are only going to mean so much if their management practices continue to fall so short of the mark.
#141 May 09 2010 at 2:38 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
It's a shame that so many resources have to be devoted to jackass prevention.


C'est la vie. This is true in so many different aspects, sadly.
#142thorazinekizzez, Posted: May 09 2010 at 2:39 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And with all giant walls of wasted txt ect... Anyone even read it? >.>
#143 May 09 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
****
5,684 posts
thorazinekizzez wrote:
It could end up being very flexible who knows..

zomg where is your evidence!! wut are u some kynd of tymewizerd?
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#144 May 11 2010 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
Sir Aur wrote:
precedent
"Blizzard Precedent" applies when we're talking about security, but not when we're talking about add-ons? Aka precedent only applies when it agrees with you? Go **** yourself. We're in Alpha, we barely have any information on the game, there is still a good 6+ months until release, it makes sense there wouldn't be any news of possible add-ons.
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Winston Churchill wrote:
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#145 May 11 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
Professor shintasama wrote:
Sir Aur wrote:
precedent
"Blizzard Precedent" applies when we're talking about security, but not when we're talking about add-ons? Aka precedent only applies when it agrees with you? Go @#%^ yourself. We're in Alpha, we barely have any information on the game, there is still a good 6+ months until release, it makes sense there wouldn't be any news of possible add-ons.


Wow...you're really upset about this, aren't you? Our good friend thorazine wasn't able to address any of the issues that would stem from trying to allow user created addons on a console so how about you give it it a try? Blizzard originally allowed for 64mb of RAM in which to run addons and apparently, they've removed that restriction. But since I'm not 100% sure that that's the case, let's stick with the original value...64mb. Not a lot, and there were single addons that could use a very large chunk of that. So on a system with 512mb of RAM total, how much of that do you think SE would be willing to sacrifice in order to allow user-created addons? I used the Warden example as presedent to show that it would be easily possible for FFXIV to ship a client-side applet with the PC version of XIV to check for unsanctioned applications being used in conjunction with XIV. The precedent deosn't extend to third party applications because WoW isn't available for consoles...XIV will be.

Ya know what? Get over it.

Edited, May 11th 2010 8:21am by Aurelius
#146 May 11 2010 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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2,890 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Ya know what? Get over it.


1. First off as far as memory usage you shouldn't really be speculating too seriously since its impossible to really guage how efficient a cross console addon system can be. That and consoles can handle quite a bit.

2. Using blizzard as a precedent for anything related to FFXIV isn't going to be very effective. Apples and oranges. Too many variables and WoW is not a hack free environment to begin with. The types of content that a windower would work with is not even currently being checked for with Warden either. No argument here. Yeah sure in a perfect fantasy world SE will not have any third party software on the PC client. ( Yeah right ;)... Checking for speed hacks != checking for displaying variables on screen... Apples and Oranges )

3. Its NOT impossible to have user made addons for FFXIV. Its just unlikely it will be included. The system can be setup like Kismet from UED allowing for everyone to edit the interface how they wish even on consoles. Do you even know what that is?

Aurelius... Just shhhhhhhh
All your good for is ******* people off...

Edited, May 11th 2010 1:01pm by thorazinekizzez
#147 May 11 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
Sir Aur wrote:
Wow...you're really upset about this, aren't you?
I'm just tired of you being a prick all the time.
Sir Aur wrote:
Blizzard originally allowed for 64mb of RAM in which to run addons and apparently, they've removed that restriction. But since I'm not 100% sure that that's the case, let's stick with the original value...64mb. Not a lot, and there were single addons that could use a very large chunk of that. So on a system with 512mb of RAM total, how much of that do you think SE would be willing to sacrifice in order to allow user-created addons? I used the Warden example as presedent to show that it would be easily possible for FFXIV to ship a client-side applet with the PC version of XIV to check for unsanctioned applications being used in conjunction with XIV. The precedent deosn't extend to third party applications because WoW isn't available for consoles...XIV will be.
Simple stuff like "recast" takes negligible (>.5mb) of RAM to use, and I'm sure it's not optimized. You're making a big deal out of something that isn't and pretending it's a dealbreaker.
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Aurelius... Just shhhhhhhh
All your good for is ******* people off...
Pretty much
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#148 May 11 2010 at 6:03 PM Rating: Default
Professor shintasama wrote:
Sir Aur wrote:
Wow...you're really upset about this, aren't you?
I'm just tired of you being a prick all the time.


I'm tired of you not putting line breaks after your quotes, but you don't see me having a QQ meltdown over it, do you?

Quote:
Simple stuff like "recast" takes negligible (>.5mb) of RAM to use, and I'm sure it's not optimized. You're making a big deal out of something that isn't and pretending it's a dealbreaker.


You need to think bigger. I could find an awful lot of addons for WoW whose memory usage is negligible. I could also find a lot of addons whose memory usage is quite substantial. Just because the types of things you're looking at wouldn't represent a significant demand on system resources doesn't mean that SE would be able to keep the playerbase happy by giving them a toolkit that only gives them a trivial amount of RAM to mess around with. If they're going to do it, it's best to do it right or not at all. And if they can't do it right due to "PS3 limitations", well...not at all.

You seem to have this absurd notion that I'm a prick because you're wrong and I've told you so. Want me to be less of a "prick"? Stop being wrong, and if you can't manage that, at least stop getting needlessly butthurt when you're called on it. Protip: I know more about the genre than you. If the best you have to offer is cussing and blustering and crying, find someone else to QQ at. You should know by now that I don't back down.

Edited, May 11th 2010 5:03pm by Aurelius
#149 May 11 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Default
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2,890 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
You seem to have this absurd notion that I'm a prick because you're wrong and I've told you so.


Ok just STFU please..
Your going off on him based on the argument that already super inefficient code is taking up a little more negligible memory than it should. The only thing your doing is keeping this thread going when the ops questions have been answered 50 times...
#150 May 11 2010 at 7:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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#151 May 12 2010 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You seem to have this absurd notion that I'm a prick because you're wrong and I've told you so. Want me to be less of a "prick"? Stop being wrong, and if you can't manage that, at least stop getting needlessly butthurt when you're called on it. Protip: I know more about the genre than you. If the best you have to offer is cussing and blustering and crying, find someone else to QQ at. You should know by now that I don't back down.


I think he has the absurd notion that your a prick because thats how your writing makes you come across. I often agree with you but still hate reading your posts because your come across like that in nearly every single post you write.

Nothing personal it's probably just your style of writing.
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