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#1 Apr 28 2010 at 6:03 AM Rating: Excellent
I HATED the map system for FFXI. I didn't so much dislike having to buy a map to a zone, but questing and chest drops was too much of an unrealistic pain.

Here is what I would like:

1) Everyone starts with no maps, or maybe just a map of their starting city. As you explore a zone, your map fills in. Fairly basic, it works, and it's been done before.

2) A scribe crafting class (it would make mage spells too, but that's another thread) that could craft existing maps. I don't know how they would get the template/recipe to make the map, perhaps they would need to explore the zone themselves, or buy it for a high price. This idea is still somewhat of an uncarved block for me.

What do you all think?
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#2 Apr 28 2010 at 6:39 AM Rating: Good
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Filling in a map as you explore has always felt like a good system to me. It rewards extensive exploration and just makes logical sense. I never fully understood why my character in XI didn't just start drawing what he saw on that blank sheet of canvas.

Still, being able to purchase or acquire full maps of regions is still something I want. I wouldn't want to get a party that is in a specific location of an area I haven't explored yet and be completely unable to find the, because of it. While that would be an interesting twist, it doesn't seem to go with the more user-friendly approach SE seems to be taking.
#3 Apr 28 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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It makes sense that as I explore a land I will be able to fill in a basic map for the area.

I love the idea of being able to buy maps from players who are able to explore an area, identify mobs in that area, locate and "catalog" various named monsters and points of interest and THEN sell that map at the auction house/broker whatever. Only by physically visiting a location, locating a quest item, harvesting an object (whatever) or clicking on a mob and selecting "catalog" will it appear in that cartographer's repertoire(sp?). There is a way to do this because EQ2 has a similar "catalog" ability that works for certain quests or tomes.

Then players would get a reputation for how thorough their maps are compared to others.

There would still be maps available online but the ability to pull up a thorough player-mad map in game would rock. Also linkshells could have a stash of special maps that maybe they only give out to members.
#4 Apr 28 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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The system for FFXI didn't bother me so much, it was the details that made me mad. Like you said, if you didn't have the map for a certain area and you were there then those sections of the map should have filled in as if you were mapping it for yourself.

The part of questing for the maps was pretty fun for me. The only thing I didn't like was looking/waiting for coffers & treasure chests to spawn. But any quest that was "do this, and here is a map as your reward" I liked.
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#5 Apr 28 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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#1 sounds fine. I don't know if you were the person I talked to previously, but I don't see #2 being a viable standalone profession given the availability of online materials without SE making it unbalanced. Maybe basic maps could be a subset of another profession?
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#6 Apr 28 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Or maybe having the map in-game gives you more functionality that online maps can't give, like in-game waypoints, reminders, flagging NPCs, etc.
#7 Apr 28 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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I disliked the map system in FFXI as well. Especially when you thought you had a map for a location when you really didn't >:(

From what I have seen in FFXIV however, and this is speculation mind you, it appears as if the map is auto-loaded, especially with the new mini-map system. Whether that is changed in final release or not who knows, but I have a good feeling that maps will be either filled in for every region automatically, or plotted through exploration.
#8 Apr 28 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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CTBrother wrote:
Filling in a map as you explore has always felt like a good system to me. It rewards extensive exploration and just makes logical sense. I never fully understood why my character in XI didn't just start drawing what he saw on that blank sheet of canvas.

Still, being able to purchase or acquire full maps of regions is still something I want. I wouldn't want to get a party that is in a specific location of an area I haven't explored yet and be completely unable to find the, because of it. While that would be an interesting twist, it doesn't seem to go with the more user-friendly approach SE seems to be taking.



I agree with this. Maybe SE should make a quest that let players explore and unlock the map of the fields and the dungeons.
#9 Apr 28 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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The maps and cartography in XIV are excellent. The artwork is just amazing.

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#10 Apr 28 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't mind having to buy, fill out, or just automaticlly have them. What I do hate is questing and picking coffers. Finding chests and questing takes time and I'm the type of person that has to know where they are. I have a bad sense of direction and hate being lost.
#11 Apr 28 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think there's anything wrong with the questing for certain maps idea, especially if it is a map for a more exclusive area in the game. I think people are forgetting that, theoretically, if our character was mapping an area themself, that would also take time. I don't think maps should necessarily be a given in all situations, and if we map parts out ourselves by exploring it is completely possible we will miss parts. Sea Serpent Grotto is a perfect example of somewhere that I doubt I would have been able to completely explore to map out myself due to the different floors and hidden passageways. If we assume all maps can be easily filled as we're just looking around, I imagine that will make for some pretty boring areas. I don't mind having to quest for a map or having the option to buy it. The coffers/chests might have been a little overboard, but for the most part it was easier than having to explore every nook and cranny of an area just to have the full map.
#12 Apr 28 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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My 2 cents.
I'm not too thrilled with having a mini-map. I just find that in games with an on screen mini map I end up looking at the 2 inches in the corner of the screen rather than the vast world around me. I liked having to actually Learn the zones rather than following the flashing arrow on the mini.

As for the large map,
I liked questing for maps. I'm not too sure how I feel about the map buying, it was convenient but not being able to get a map for a needed area was annoying. The questing was fun. Map finding made for a wonderful sense of accomplishment. It lets you suddenly have access to an area you couldn't even safely enter up until that point. I just wish I could make a greater # and more detailed notations on my maps.

I kind of like the Make it as you go idea but there is an element of "Too Easy", especially if they still have something like powders and oils. I could see players loading up on oils and powders and just running areas to fill in maps.

Perhaps they could combine the ideas. Let you Make the map yourself but have the amount of map filled in to a very small radius around your toon so that it would take a very long time to map a single area, but if you want you can drop some gil or go on a quest for a full map to an area.
#13 Apr 28 2010 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
I hate to admit it but I think the way WoW did it was great, you "discovered" an area for a small amount of exp and it revealed a little portion of your map. In FFXI it was a pain (read: crawler's nest) to get certain maps. Either vending or filling them in is the way to go.
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#14 Apr 28 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah WOW handled maps the best. Exploring a zone bit by bit with landmarks is the way to go. FFXI left you blind most of the time, as getting maps for some zones requires you to be far above the actual content's level in that zone, which made no sense. "stumble around blindly then when the zone is obsolete we'll hand you a map from a really ******* obscure quest!" Ugh. FFXI, you were like a really hot bipolar chick sometimes, I swear.
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#15 Apr 28 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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You know, this may sound silly but I do like how in FFXI if I didn't have a map for a certain area that i frequented quite often I eventually memorized it to the point where I knew it better than my own back yard.
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#16 Apr 28 2010 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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So was I the only person that didn't really mind the CN map quest? Don't get me wrong it took a looong time, but it was unique. If there were more map quests like it, then it would have been a real pain. But since it was the only one of it's kind, and gave you a history lesson of the land I really didn't mind it.

It was one of those things that I did one step at a time while I waited for an EXP party, or my friends to log on.
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#18 Apr 28 2010 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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FullMetalBoshi wrote:
Heres to being rewarded for exploration, and being able to buy maps of places you can't explore yet.


So you don't think there should be any work/cleverness to getting maps of areas at all? I don't understand how people can be so lazy about this (no offense if I'm taking this the wrong way). People complain about WoW all the time for the simplicity and I have heard people complain about the maps multiple times and how they make the game too easy. I personally do not think WoW handled the map situation "the best" by any means. FFXI needs an upgrade to their system but I don't think all the maps should be handed to people without any effort.
#19 Apr 28 2010 at 9:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I've never heard a complain about WoW maps. And I'm with those who think it's handled great in that game. I don't like how it's done in FFXI.
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#20 Apr 29 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Excellent
Echose wrote:
You know, this may sound silly but I do like how in FFXI if I didn't have a map for a certain area that i frequented quite often I eventually memorized it to the point where I knew it better than my own back yard.



I'm going to take the high road here too and say that I didn't mind at all having to quest for certain maps. It gives you a feeling of accomplishment for your work. Coffer maps are another thing though... and to this day, after having played since NA day 1, I have not gotten a sacrarium map.

I think I'll have considered myself to have beaten XI when I finally get that **** Sacrarium map.
#21 Apr 29 2010 at 12:47 AM Rating: Good
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What about it being case sensitive?

Cities: Already loaded into your inventory.

Overworld areas: Auto fill as you explore.

Dungeons, etc: Questable.

I do agree with the whole futility of getting a map out of a chest though. Nothing worse than camping chests/coffers.
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#22 Apr 29 2010 at 5:46 AM Rating: Good
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#1 sounds fine. I don't know if you were the person I talked to previously, but I don't see #2 being a viable standalone profession given the availability of online materials without SE making it unbalanced. Maybe basic maps could be a subset of another profession?


I was thinking of a scribe class that would be the source for new scrolls and abilities, in addition to maps. Why limit a huge section of the economy to NPC vendors and drops only?

Quote:
I love the idea of being able to buy maps from players who are able to explore an area, identify mobs in that area, locate and "catalog" various named monsters and points of interest and THEN sell that map at the auction house/broker whatever


I like this idea a lot. It would be tough to sell if they have a generic auction house type of situation. A map with points of interest on it and a side bar with some mob info would be great.

I'm still leaning towards #1, especially if it worked they way you all say WOW worked. Bonus EXP is always more gooder.
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#23 Apr 30 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have 2 wishes for the maps in FFXIV. One is that when you open the map it shows you and your party on it without having to open the menu and load them. Two is being able to look at a map I own, even if I'm not in that area. Did anyone else think these two things were frustrating to no end?
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#24 Apr 30 2010 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Very much agree. It was annoyign not being able to look at other maps than the one you were in.
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#25 Apr 30 2010 at 7:26 PM Rating: Good
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I totally agree with this, I think there is room for both though, for example you can explore the area and fill the map in or you can perhaps pay gold or do a guildleve to have the map filled in for you.

This way it will make both sides happy, as far as I know you don't need to buy map in the Alpha nor do they fill in, so it will be interesting to see how they will implement this.

To be honest though I expect it to follow in the same footsteps as FF11.

Quote:
Two is being able to look at a map I own, even if I'm not in that area. Did anyone else think these two things were frustrating to no end?


This is in.

Quote:
I was thinking of a scribe class that would be the source for new scrolls and abilities


Scrolls for what exactly everything is learnt from the weapons you have equiped.

Edited, Apr 30th 2010 9:32pm by Diakar
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#26 Apr 30 2010 at 11:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maps and exploration were two things that I prided myself on in FFXI. It was great to have all the maps of the games, and it was wonderful to explore every nook and cranny that was in the game. Though it was convenient to purchase some maps from a vendor, I always thought that it took a little bit of the fun out of it.

Through exploration and being able to mark the map I was able to label areas to my desire, like "Good Fishing Spot," or "Goblin Camp South." One of the things that I didn't like was that you had to use one color of labeling before you could use the other. I would have like to have different colors available so that I could prioritize, or organize which areas were what instead of just having lots of same colored dots. Having the ability to circle things on the map would be just about the best thing in the world, but hey I understand if there are limitations to that.

I've played WoW and yes, I do like how their map system was. It also provided a good incentive for exploration, with a tabard and such, so you could show off that you achieved something.

I hope that FFXI gives much more incentive than just a title and a map for exploration. Though I personally like it, I talked to a lot people who thought it was a pain in the ****. They usually just relied websites to navigate around. It's good that there is a Windowed Mode now, because back in the day it was prohibited to talk about Windowed Mode.

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#27 May 01 2010 at 12:35 AM Rating: Decent
Another one of my complaints about the maps in FFXI is that you had to completely stop what you were doing so this giant thing could fill your screen in which you had to zoom out just to see what you were looking for.
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#28 May 01 2010 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
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It's not like Eorzea is an uncharted world, I don't see why the maps shouldn't be available to everyone from the start. I hated having to track down vendors to buy maps in XI, I thought it was such a stupid choice on SEs part.
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#29 May 01 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
LestatXIV wrote:
It's not like Eorzea is an uncharted world, I don't see why the maps shouldn't be available to everyone from the start. I hated having to track down vendors to buy maps in XI, I thought it was such a stupid choice on SEs part.


You would think the main open areas would all be covered at least. Maybe all the cave maps etc. were lost in the shadow war. I think the justification for needing to obtain them is because they are 'magic maps' that show your location and the locations of your party members.
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#30 May 01 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Scrolls for what exactly everything is learnt from the weapons you have equiped.


Is this for DoM also? They learn spells from the weapons they use?


Quote:
It's not like Eorzea is an uncharted world, I don't see why the maps shouldn't be available to everyone from the start. I hated having to track down vendors to buy maps in XI, I thought it was such a stupid choice on SEs part.


I took this as a way to personalize the game for yourself. I always thought about it like this: I'm from New York, Staten Island to be specific. I know my area well enough from being here so long that I don't need a map, but having one would still show me things I may have never known about. That being said, if I travel to say Texas, I wouldn't know much about the area and would need a map (or a GPS?) to get where I want to go.
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#31 May 01 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
ReiThor wrote:
Quote:
Scrolls for what exactly everything is learnt from the weapons you have equiped.


Is this for DoM also? They learn spells from the weapons they use?


You equip a weapon. The weapon you equip defines your class. You then go do things that earn class xp. Your class rank increases. You learn new abilities. You don't learn anything from your weapon, but your weapon defines the scope of what you learn. Whether or not SE has decided to forego the concept of scrolls or trainers to teach new spells/abilities I don't know, but there's no reason at this point to assume that SE has opted to stick with the FFXI system for those kinds of things.
#32 May 01 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
ReiThor wrote:
Quote:
Scrolls for what exactly everything is learnt from the weapons you have equiped.

Is this for DoM also? They learn spells from the weapons they use?

You equip a weapon. The weapon you equip defines your class. You then go do things that earn class xp. Your class rank increases. You learn new abilities. You don't learn anything from your weapon, but your weapon defines the scope of what you learn. Whether or not SE has decided to forego the concept of scrolls or trainers to teach new spells/abilities I don't know, but there's no reason at this point to assume that SE has opted to stick with the FFXI system for those kinds of things.
You automatically learn spells when you level, no scroll/trainer required.
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#33 May 02 2010 at 6:47 AM Rating: Good
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I had just assumed the different classes learned skills and abilities. I didn't even consider spells as being from weapons also.

It evens things out a little too. DDs didn't have to shell out any gil to learn their stuff, but mages did in FFXI. I guess if everything comes from your weapon it's a little more balanced.

I have to wonder if certain weapons (for the same class) will give you different abilities. Think FFIX. Can a mage learn "cure" from one staff and once it's "mastered" they always know it, and would switch to another staff that teaches haste?
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#34 May 02 2010 at 6:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I have to wonder if certain weapons (for the same class) will give you different abilities. Think FFIX. Can a mage learn "cure" from one staff and once it's "mastered" they always know it, and would switch to another staff that teaches haste?


There's nothing shown so far that would suggest this.

Classes learn new skills/spells like every second skill rank, regardless of their specific weapon. Only the weapon type matters, right now.
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#35 May 02 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
Hyanmen wrote:
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I have to wonder if certain weapons (for the same class) will give you different abilities. Think FFIX. Can a mage learn "cure" from one staff and once it's "mastered" they always know it, and would switch to another staff that teaches haste?


There's nothing shown so far that would suggest this.

Classes learn new skills/spells like every second skill rank, regardless of their specific weapon. Only the weapon type matters, right now.
I'm guessing that at some point the weapon types might expand (lance or spear for expample). This might be the advent of what we know as advanced jobs. Might require an expansion.
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#36 May 03 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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Not everything in the game has to be an accomplishment, maps might be an example of this.

In an attempt to make getting maps an accomplishment I think it could ruin the fun of getting other accomplishments. Not having a map makes it hard to find your party, unable to follow directions given to you by npcs or even players, and in general just gets you lost.

I vote this one should be relatively easy and focus on making more epic activities the ones we put effort into.
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#37 May 03 2010 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
How about some maps you could actually follow and understand instead of having a obscure painting of the aerial view of an area.

There are many maps in ffxi that only show where you are at but not where you are in.
I remember how useless some maps were like the Yuhtunga Jungle map that did nothing but confuse someone into getting stuck or having to start over.

I like the map fills in as you explore idea.
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#38 May 03 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
ReiThor wrote:
I had just assumed the different classes learned skills and abilities. I didn't even consider spells as being from weapons also.

It evens things out a little too. DDs didn't have to shell out any gil to learn their stuff, but mages did in FFXI. I guess if everything comes from your weapon it's a little more balanced.

I have to wonder if certain weapons (for the same class) will give you different abilities. Think FFIX. Can a mage learn "cure" from one staff and once it's "mastered" they always know it, and would switch to another staff that teaches haste?


I think it might help to understand how it works if you eliminate the whole, "learn things from your weapons" aspect from your line of thinking. You don't learn anything from your weapon. Your weapon doesn't teach you anything. Your weapon defines your class. That's it. Instead of going to a mog house and selecting a job, you equip a specific kind of weapon. You equip <weapon type A> and become <class A>. You then go out and do things that earn you class xp. Your class rank goes up. You learn new skills/abilities/spells based on your class rank. It stands to reason that you will also learn certain skills (ie. weapon skill type things) from your skill level with a particular weapon type but again, you aren't learning anything from the weapon. In FFXI, RNG learned Barrage at level 30. They didn't learn it from their weapon...they learned it because they reached a specific job level.

Weapon defines class. Weapon does not teach skills.
#39 May 03 2010 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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I carry a sword, therefore I'm a sword user. That's it. By using said sword I gain abilities/skills that are associated with a sword because I'm getting better with it. Not taught by the actual sword itself. Got it. Following that logic I guess spells couldn't work in the FFIX style of leveling. that was an under rated system, being able to give Zidane & Vivi (for example) the same abilities if they used the same armor long enough...
Thanks for clearing it up a bit.
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