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#52 Jun 07 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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There is, if something is for sale in AH or a Bazzar, can always message the maker of it to see if you can get one made for you cheeper (if you provide materials)


For this reason, I really hope that this time around the AH (or equivalent) won't remove the signature from crafted items.
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#53 Jun 07 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Default
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私はあなたの装置を確認できますか?
Watashi wa anata no sōchi o kakunin deki masu ka?


That would have been handy to know several years ago. I tried a few hack jobs with the auto trans that sometimes got the job done. Heh. Quick question though - is this a literal translation? What I recall of my japanese, dekimasu literally means "to have the ability to" [do something]; it's not asking permission. Wouldn't it be more correct to ask more along the lines of: "watashi wa anata no souchi o kakunin mou ii des ka"? (except conjugate the verb for "check" to the present imperative for proper grammar).

But I digress. The fact remains that you shouldn't HAVE to ask - it's not rude to look at someone's gear. What you choose to do with that information that has the potential for disrespectful behaviour, not the act itself. I used to ask people if it was okay, but eventually gave up - it's tedious and unnecessary, especially when you're dealing with a language barrier.



Edited, Jun 7th 2010 7:48pm by dalm
#54 Jun 07 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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As some people have said, SE mentioned you might be getting the option to sign your gear...for those career crafters that is a great help.

It might actually be very important for people to check each others gear. With how they want crafters to be able to craft full time and maybe even add little 'designs' or something to the gear they make so its more 'unique'.

Look at it this way; Your a Blacksmith who makes great custom swords...that no one knows about. So you sell some neat swords to a few Gladiators for cheap so they can go out there and start using them. People see that they look cool, are strong, and have your signature on them. Bam! you are getting business! /tell's for your custom swords all over the place and you are now officially a brand! all thanks to those few Gladiators working as walking advertisements.

checking can be good from a economical standpoint.
#55 Jun 07 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
SE has an opportunity to do it right this time. There was nothing wrong with the check feature in FFXI...what didn't work was announcing it to the person being inspected. Filters...no filters...that doesn't matter. Don't enable the report at all. Ever. But not having a feature that allows you to inspect the gear of other players is questionable.


...questionable...? questionable wouldn't be the invasion of privacy in the first place? or the fact that peoples' characters aren't created with perfect gear on level 1? or the fact that inspecting someone is a purely arbitrary privilege provided at the whim of a developer? or the farce that is checking players' gear for the sole purpose of discriminating against them based on it?

really?
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#56 Jun 07 2010 at 9:48 PM Rating: Decent
LaFey wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
SE has an opportunity to do it right this time. There was nothing wrong with the check feature in FFXI...what didn't work was announcing it to the person being inspected. Filters...no filters...that doesn't matter. Don't enable the report at all. Ever. But not having a feature that allows you to inspect the gear of other players is questionable.


...questionable...? questionable wouldn't be the invasion of privacy in the first place? or the fact that peoples' characters aren't created with perfect gear on level 1? or the fact that inspecting someone is a purely arbitrary privilege provided at the whim of a developer? or the farce that is checking players' gear for the sole purpose of discriminating against them based on it?

really?


Being able to examine the gear of other players isn't without benefit so yes, omitting it would be questionable.
#57 Jun 07 2010 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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LaFey wrote:
questionable wouldn't be the invasion of privacy in the first place? or the fact that peoples' characters aren't created with perfect gear on level 1? or the fact that inspecting someone is a purely arbitrary privilege provided at the whim of a developer? or the farce that is checking players' gear for the sole purpose of discriminating against them based on it?


While I understand where you are coming from, most of what you are saying here is over-exaggerated and does not overpower the benefits of being able to check other people's gear. It is not an "invasion of privacy" to have your gear checked. It is no different than someone who passes you on the street noticing your clothes and looking for an indication of brand. No, characters are not created with perfect gear at level one, but most people recognize that and act accordingly. I cannot say I've EVER had a problem with people giving me grief over not having quality gear at level 1. If I showed up at the dunes with a level 1 Great Axe on my warrior and wasn't landing any hits on the mob, yeah, I'd have problems, and it would be completely my fault. Inspecting someone is NOT a purely arbitrary privilege by any means and can be just as much of a help as it can be a hinder. To come into this conversation with such skin-deep claims makes me think you haven't read most of what is in this thread, although I could be wrong. Many people have rightfully brought up the example of lending gear in cases where someone was in need. I myself have /checked people in Final Fantasy XI and lent/gave plenty of gear myself to other players. Finally, checking players is not for the sole purpose of discriminating against players. Please due not turn the minority of MMO players into the majority. As has been expressed in most threads here, the majority of players are not stuck-up douche bags who only use game implementations as a way to increase their e-peen. Signing items was a great way to promote your crafting skills in FFXI and with the new emphasis on crafting that use will surely increase exponentially as people have already pointed out.
#58 Jun 08 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Decent
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It's not without consequences either
(rather, the /check that correlates to combat prowess is indicative of a deeper problem when it's so useful we have to defend it tooth and nail.)

The importance of check directly correlates the how much bearing armor has on your chances of success. Which is just an awfully sugarcoated way of saying the importance of check directly correlates to the uselessness of you.

Not that I think MMOs are about to drop character development anytime soon, or abandon one it's more classic outlets. But if the cries for 'player skill! player skill!' are any indication, even the more skill oriented MMOs of modern day are still missing the mark of what players want.

How important /check remains, is a measure of how much the industry is dragging it's feet.



Edited, Jun 8th 2010 3:08am by Zemzelette
#59 Jun 08 2010 at 1:28 AM Rating: Default
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Well of all the things we have information on the armor that goes along with the armory system is on the low side.

We know that SE has talked about how Blacksmiths will need check peoples equipment and they might implement a system for players consent for the check. Also some form of weapon degradation? no clue if this extends to armor as well.

How important armor is going be to the player though as Zemzelette has pointed out...that remains to be seen. One thing to keep in mind though is that it has to have some sort of major importance if your going to be a career Blacksmith, which in turn effects those career miners in the grand economical scheme of things.

Combat classes success being influenced by equipment means Crafting classes success is influenced by making better equipment, and Gathering classes success is influenced by gather better material out in the field...which is full of monsters and might require assistance from the Combat classes.
#60 Jun 08 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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dalm wrote:
Quote:
私はあなたの装置を確認できますか?
Watashi wa anata no sōchi o kakunin deki masu ka?


That would have been handy to know several years ago. I tried a few hack jobs with the auto trans that sometimes got the job done. Heh. Quick question though - is this a literal translation? What I recall of my japanese, dekimasu literally means "to have the ability to" [do something]; it's not asking permission. Wouldn't it be more correct to ask more along the lines of: "watashi wa anata no souchi o kakunin mou ii des ka"? (except conjugate the verb for "check" to the present imperative for proper grammar).

But I digress. The fact remains that you shouldn't HAVE to ask - it's not rude to look at someone's gear. What you choose to do with that information that has the potential for disrespectful behaviour, not the act itself. I used to ask people if it was okay, but eventually gave up - it's tedious and unnecessary, especially when you're dealing with a language barrier.





That was with the google translator, dont think it looks right. The one I learned playing FFXi was I think.... "soubi misete kudsai" or something like that, I could be way off.

but more to the accual topic again
Im seriously thinkign about making a Weaver for the fun of it, and I'd really want to be able to sign anything spectacular or (+1)'s made for advertizing purposes.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 10:29am by Puppy1
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#61 Jun 08 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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There are a number of benefits from having a check system. If you're not sure what gear is available, which is especially true early in a game's life, it's helpful to be able to look at other people's gear. Let's say you want to buy some rings but don't know what's out there; looking at other people can give you an idea of what's available, and if an item is EX, you won't see it on an AH, so you can ask the person where they got it.

Or if someone is wearing some spiffy looking body armor, it's typically faster and easier to check them and look up the piece on wiki to see how to get it, rather than ask them what they're wearing and where they got it (and hope that they speak English, are not AFK, and are paying attention to their chat log).

The real complaint behind checking in FFXI was never the line of text of "Examines you" or "Stares at you fixedly" or "Wants to have *** with your girlfriend"... it was always the idea that someone did not want to actually have their gear SEEN. Turning on the check filter in XI did not stop you from BEING checked (which was the complaint), it stopped you from KNOWING. And the result was that people would intentionally leave the filter OFF because they WANTED to know when they were being checked so that they could do something about it (blink, zone, whatever).

And honestly, I can't see many legitimate reasons behind wanting to not have anyone able to check your gear, unless you're ashamed of your gear and/or know that it's terribad, but don't want others to know about it. If you're looking for party as a DRG and you're wearing evasion earrings, VIT rings, and a weapon that gives -STR, -DEX, and +INT, yeah... I can see you not wanting people to know that. But once you start looking for a group, they have a right to know that you suck before inviting you.

I wouldn't be opposed to implementing the ability to be uncheckable so long as you aren't in or looking for a party, although I don't feel such an option is needed.

I do think having a check option in general is practically a must though.

EDIT: And if you have a "Player wants to check you, do you accept?" option, that will just create more problems IMO. Most people will set it to auto allow if such an option exists, and some will always click no, regardless. And to the response of those who always click no regardless will always be those who keep sending check requests over and over to harass them (unless you put a time limit on how many times you can check within a time limit).

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 3:49pm by Mikhalia
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#62 Jun 08 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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The best way for them to make /check less important (and subsequently, less annoying\insulting) is to just make a wider variety of gear so people don't feel gimp. The douchebag factor was prevalent in XI so much because there were only a handful of accepted builds. You were looking for specific pieces of equipment - Beetle Earrings +1 at 21, Woodsman\Snipers rings at 40, Haubergeon at 59, etc. There was no deviation because there were no other options and so it became a situation where if you didn't have this specific piece of gear at the level you were at, you were completely gimp and ran the risk of being booted.

SE can fix all that by spreading the gear around a little more. Sure, leave the top tier *level 75* gear for the end game stuff, and the journey on the way up should be a little more forgiving. Then it really *will* become a situation where someone is checking you out to see what you have, rather than checking you out to see what you don't.
#63 Jun 08 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Default
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Yeah, I totally agree with that. If you take the path that games like WoW and DDO and such have, you end up with a lot of reasonably equivalent options.

In the end, minmaxers will have charts and data that tell you that X piece is better than Y piece because it parses 0.23% higher, but for the bulk of players, it won't really matter.

If you only have a limited amount of equipment where the "best options" are blatantly obvious to anyone, then they just become the most expensive pieces due to demand and the game ends up split between "People who have good gear" and "People who have bad gear because they can't afford good gear", which was definitely one of the things I disliked about FFXI.

Granted, I always tried to have the best gear I could possibly have, at any level, on any job, but after a while it got boring seeing the same gray and black plate, red and black harness, red and black cloak on nearly everyone. Just like how people asked for visible cloaks in FFXI but all that would result in was 75% of people wearing a brown or rainbow colored cloak.

It'd still be nice to have a check option, but adding in multiple viable gear options would reduce gear elitism by a lot.
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#64 Jun 08 2010 at 5:54 PM Rating: Default
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Very valid points about making more viable gear rather then one common 'great' set. High chance this will happen since the Crafting classes will need stuff to do. I doubt if SE wants up to be a career Weaver or Blacksmith and all we do is make the same set of armor for the same levels over and over again...

I know one of the things that Aion did that would be helpful (and confusing) was being able to take the stats from one piece of gear and put it on another, so you can have a specific look but a choice of stats. Doing this really means some one could have the lowest level looking gear in the game yet still keep it up to date. It also means no one can simply judge you by your looks.

...though that wouldn't solve anything if you don't like being 'checked'. It might make things worse! people would do a double take on your gear to see what it is and then what it 'is' in stats. But hey, it gives Crafters more stuff to do.
#65 Jun 08 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
EDIT: And if you have a "Player wants to check you, do you accept?" option, that will just create more problems IMO. Most people will set it to auto allow if such an option exists, and some will always click no, regardless. And to the response of those who always click no regardless will always be those who keep sending check requests over and over to harass them (unless you put a time limit on how many times you can check within a time limit).[/i]


Or, y'know, they could have an "always deny" checkbox to go along with that "always accept" option.

And some people are so proud of their setups that they don't want people to see what they put together, depending on JUST how customizable armor/equipment is in this game. Some are selfish. Some like to simply give people a hard time or are just being silly. Some have been traumatized before by a person calling out every single thing about their gear. Are any of these BAD reasons for people who pay the same amount for the game that everyone else does?
#66 Jun 08 2010 at 6:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Deila wrote:
And some people are so proud of their setups that they don't want people to see what they put together, depending on JUST how customizable armor/equipment is in this game. Some are selfish. Some like to simply give people a hard time or are just being silly. Some have been traumatized before by a person calling out every single thing about their gear. Are any of these BAD reasons for people who pay the same amount for the game that everyone else does?


Err...yes? I'm confused. Other than that last one, they all seemed like poor reasons, to me.
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#67LaFey, Posted: Jun 08 2010 at 7:35 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) wall of text, tl;dr, stfu.
#68 Jun 08 2010 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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LaFey wrote:
Hysterics


You're not doing yourself any favors with the manic way you're expressing your argument. And the "wall of text, tl;dr, stfu." is just the icing on the cake.
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#69 Jun 08 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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LaFey wrote:
Long rant of over-sarcastic, ignorant ******** that shows what a complete psycho you are and probably suggests pretty strongly that you SHOULD NOT PLAY MMO's

Bluefirefly wrote:
While I understand where you are coming from, most of what you are saying here is over-exaggerated and does not overpower the benefits of being able to check other people's gear. It is not an "invasion of privacy" to have your gear checked. It is no different than someone who passes you on the street noticing your clothes and looking for an indication of brand. No, characters are not created with perfect gear at level one, but most people recognize that and act accordingly. I cannot say I've EVER had a problem with people giving me grief over not having quality gear at level 1. If I showed up at the dunes with a level 1 Great Axe on my warrior and wasn't landing any hits on the mob, yeah, I'd have problems, and it would be completely my fault. Inspecting someone is NOT a purely arbitrary privilege by any means and can be just as much of a help as it can be a hinder. To come into this conversation with such skin-deep claims makes me think you haven't read most of what is in this thread, although I could be wrong. Many people have rightfully brought up the example of lending gear in cases where someone was in need. I myself have /checked people in Final Fantasy XI and lent/gave plenty of gear myself to other players. Finally, checking players is not for the sole purpose of discriminating against players. Please due not turn the minority of MMO players into the majority. As has been expressed in most threads here, the majority of players are not stuck-up douche bags who only use game implementations as a way to increase their e-peen. Signing items was a great way to promote your crafting skills in FFXI and with the new emphasis on crafting that use will surely increase exponentially as people have already pointed out.


wall of text, tl;dr, stfu.


First of all, thanks for proving my point. I also find it hilarious you refer to my post as tl;dr just because it isn't broken up into bursts of whining like your posts. Maybe you didn't actually address it because you can't because you're wrong. Second of all, Mikhalia stated his argument in a perfectly legitimate fashion, something you are clearly incapable of. If you want privacy to the extent you're going to pee your pants if someone /checks you, do us all a favor and don't play FFXIV. If anything, you're a bigger douche than the "snobbish pricks" you're ranting against and your post makes me believe I'd prefer being discriminated against for my gear than get stuck in a party with an un-checkable ******* like you. You can take your no-friends-irl-l337 internet speak and shove it.
#70 Jun 08 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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You guys have a very active, well thought out and reasoned discussion thread going on here, without any tactical nukes being used. I'm impressed. One or two of you might want to watch the STFU's if you were looking to keep things reasonable and articulate, /shrug.

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#71 Jun 08 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Why thank you Dread Lord Kaolian, its nice to discuses stuff!

On topic here, what is this major problem with /check and the major benefit of /check? does it serve a legitimate purpose or is it useless? valid points for ether conclusions.

Will being checked lead to others being judged...well that is a common assumption but that's not 'because' of the ability to check, that simply other people judging. People will judge one another no matter what, be it on equipment or on skill or on general attitude (or maybe a combination of the 3)

Removing checking wont remove all of judgment when it involves hundreds or thousands of people. People are going to judge. But then again all people aren't shallow. There will be 'bad apples' in any bunch along with the good ones. So...filters seem like the best bet, turn checking on or off, some people want to be checked and others don't...there is a fair way to make everyone happy right?
#72 Jun 08 2010 at 10:54 PM Rating: Good
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Human threat assessment is fundamentally flawed, we're more afraid of airplanes than we are calories, which is lunacy by all objective standards. So even though the percentage of actual prick elitists who take the time out their busy schedule to mouth off at some poor innocent newbie who just doesn't know any better is like a thimble to an ocean. People seem to give that fear more weight than it really earns.

It's damned unfortunate. I tend to hold myself to certain performance standards. Myself alone. Nowadays that sort of thing tends to get you labeled, as exactly the sort of person most likely to enact aforementioned completely irrational fear. Casual chitchat about armor or ability choices used to be such a safe area of conversation.

Nobody wants to be judged.
Not the people with the bad gear, not the people with the normal gear, not even people with the best gear.

I'm not saying the logic isn't sound, but I hate the resulting atmosphere.


Edited, Jun 9th 2010 1:42am by Zemzelette
#73 Jun 08 2010 at 11:32 PM Rating: Default
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
You guys have a very active, well thought out and reasoned discussion thread going on here, without any tactical nukes being used. I'm impressed. One or two of you might want to watch the STFU's if you were looking to keep things reasonable and articulate, /shrug.


censorship, oh boy. when someone says something too obviously inane to require a proper response, a "stfu" is both acceptable and adequate.

SideCH wrote:
Why thank you Dread Lord Kaolian, its nice to discuses stuff!

On topic here, what is this major problem with /check and the major benefit of /check? does it serve a legitimate purpose or is it useless? valid points for ether conclusions.


it's not a matter of legitimacy, it's a matter of policy about players' privacy. what use is it to inspect someone? you can't use the information to help the other player at all. the only thing this feature actually does is allow players to make judgements about others based on (misleading, or simply irrelevant!) misinformation. this is simply a misuse of information for a malicious act.

SideCH wrote:
Will being checked lead to others being judged...well that is a common assumption but that's not 'because' of the ability to check, that simply other people judging. People will judge one another no matter what, be it on equipment or on skill or on general attitude (or maybe a combination of the 3)


people can't judge you if they can't inspect you. without the disguise of gear to hide their elitism (which is nothing more than cliquish abuse and harassment), other players will have to decide your merit to the party based on your performance and contribution. this approach naturally would encourage players to be tolerant and perhaps even altruistic. apparently a good attitude is too much to expect from the FFXI crowd that seems so eager to **** all over a brand new game with their legacy of bitter selfishness.

the option to forbid oneself from being inspected entirely is the only reasonable solution. not just disabling the alert.

SideCH wrote:
Removing checking wont remove all of judgment when it involves hundreds or thousands of people. People are going to judge. But then again all people aren't shallow. There will be 'bad apples' in any bunch along with the good ones. So...filters seem like the best bet, turn checking on or off, some people want to be checked and others don't...there is a fair way to make everyone happy right?


perhaps. but the prevalence of "bad apples" is, as you say, a matter of the playerbase -- and if it reflects the behavior of those who frequent this particular ZAM forum, it will ruin the game for all but a particularly sociopathic few who expect their failed culture to carry straight over from a dead MMO.

Bluefirefly wrote:
First of all, thanks for proving my point. I also find it hilarious you refer to my post as tl;dr just because it isn't broken up into bursts of whining like your posts. Maybe you didn't actually address it because you can't because you're wrong. Second of all, Mikhalia stated his argument in a perfectly legitimate fashion, something you are clearly incapable of. If you want privacy to the extent you're going to pee your pants if someone /checks you, do us all a favor and don't play FFXIV. If anything, you're a bigger douche than the "snobbish pricks" you're ranting against and your post makes me believe I'd prefer being discriminated against for my gear than get stuck in a party with an un-checkable @#%^ like you. You can take your no-friends-irl-l337 internet speak and shove it.


leet speak... really... well, allow me to link you to a place where you can find the definitions of terms. first up is a convenient link to definitions of leet speak, none of which i used (you might want to read stuff before you ***** about it)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=leet+speak

and for those multisyllabic words,

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/privacy

for the record, "broken into bursts" is called paragraphing. a modicum of formatting will tempt people to read your drivel and therefore respond to it with perhaps more respect. but why respect someone who doesn't respect you first? insult your readers by vomiting a block of blatant fallacy and superiority complex, and you shouldn't be surprised that they call you on it.

"can't because i'm wrong?"

your personal anecdotes don't do anything for your position. you just told us what you think and feel is correct, and then got mad when i didn't fall for it. i glossed over your previous post because it contained absolutely no value whatsoever.

and now i've spent way more time dignifying you with a response than you rightly deserve.
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#74 Jun 08 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
LaFey wrote:
it's not a matter of legitimacy, it's a matter of policy about players' privacy. what use is it to inspect someone? you can't use the information to help the other player at all. the only thing this feature actually does is allow players to make judgements about others based on (misleading, or simply irrelevant!) misinformation. this is simply a misuse of information for a malicious act.


It actually does present an opportunity to help another player. I've long ago lost count of the times when being able to inspect other peoples' gear has provided me with a very convenient means of taking a look at what they're using and offering them some suggestions on where they can improve. Personally, I don't run around inspecting gear and barfing advice all over people just because. If they ask for some pointers, however, being able to inspect and view is a whole heck of a lot more convenient than having them link all of their gear in a chat log (or worse, list the pieces/stats manually in those older games that don't allow linking in chat).

So yes, there are benefits, and used properly they outweigh the negative aspects. The main issue is that with the benefits comes the potential for abuse. We don't need to shield people form the mean ol' meaner heads because if they're really that hard up for attention and a bit of self ego-stroking, they'll find a way. It's not possible to eliminate random acts of douchebaggery from any MMO and when you start eliminating useful features altogether as a means of attempting to do so, you just wind up with a wonky game.
#75 Jun 09 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
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LaFey wrote:
...


I suspect that the ratings that your posts get will speak volumes about how the community appreciates your candor. One is already sub-defaulted.

Ironically, it's not that your position isn't without merit, it's just that you're asserting it in such a hysterical, aggressive manner. I don't agree with you, but I understand why you feel the way that you do.

I disagree with this assertion of yours:

LaFey wrote:
you can't use the information to help the other player at all


From personal experience, I can say that I've used /check to figure out what gear I should have equipped, especially early on in the game's life. You can't exactly google "that armor with the plates and the red straps", you know?

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#76 Jun 09 2010 at 12:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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LaFey wrote:

censorship, oh boy. when someone says something too obviously inane to require a proper response, a "stfu" is both acceptable and adequate.


No, that was a relitivly polite observation with a suggested course of action. You really don't want to see censorship. One might want to keep that in mind, along with what an acceptable and adequate response to a forum admin suggestion might be. I'll give you a hint: That wasn't it.

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#77 Jun 09 2010 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
LaFey wrote:
it's not a matter of legitimacy, it's a matter of policy about players' privacy. what use is it to inspect someone? you can't use the information to help the other player at all. the only thing this feature actually does is allow players to make judgements about others based on (misleading, or simply irrelevant!) misinformation. this is simply a misuse of information for a malicious act.


It actually does present an opportunity to help another player. I've long ago lost count of the times when being able to inspect other peoples' gear has provided me with a very convenient means of taking a look at what they're using and offering them some suggestions on where they can improve. Personally, I don't run around inspecting gear and barfing advice all over people just because. If they ask for some pointers, however, being able to inspect and view is a whole heck of a lot more convenient than having them link all of their gear in a chat log (or worse, list the pieces/stats manually in those older games that don't allow linking in chat).

So yes, there are benefits, and used properly they outweigh the negative aspects. The main issue is that with the benefits comes the potential for abuse. We don't need to shield people form the mean ol' meaner heads because if they're really that hard up for attention and a bit of self ego-stroking, they'll find a way. It's not possible to eliminate random acts of douchebaggery from any MMO and when you start eliminating useful features altogether as a means of attempting to do so, you just wind up with a wonky game.


Wait, have you come around on /check since we went at it? Last I recall you were dead-set against it.
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#78 Jun 09 2010 at 12:09 AM Rating: Good
Eske wrote:
Wait, have you come around on /check since we went at it? Last I recall you were dead-set against it.


I'm not against the /check feature, It's a useful feature. I've never played an MMO that didn't have it. I'm against the notification. I just remembered all the fuss in XI with the JP feeling that it was an invasion of privacy and the NA response to it. The easiest solution is to simply not notify the person being examined and if anyone (JP or otherwise) wants to get paranoid when someone runs up and stands in front of them for a while, let them be paranoid. I understood both sides to the argument. Side A felt it was an invasion, largely because of the way the notification was worded. Side B felt it was useful, and included an unfortunate segment of people who don't care how their actions impact the people around them. So you eliminate the notification and both sides of the argument are happy. The woman leaning over in front of me isn't going to be offended by me staring down the front of her blouse if she doesn't know I'm staring >:D
#79 Jun 09 2010 at 12:22 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Eske wrote:
Wait, have you come around on /check since we went at it? Last I recall you were dead-set against it.


I'm not against the /check feature, It's a useful feature. I've never played an MMO that didn't have it. I'm against the notification. I just remembered all the fuss in XI with the JP feeling that it was an invasion of privacy and the NA response to it. The easiest solution is to simply not notify the person being examined and if anyone (JP or otherwise) wants to get paranoid when someone runs up and stands in front of them for a while, let them be paranoid. I understood both sides to the argument. Side A felt it was an invasion, largely because of the way the notification was worded. Side B felt it was useful, and included an unfortunate segment of people who don't care how their actions impact the people around them. So you eliminate the notification and both sides of the argument are happy. The woman leaning over in front of me isn't going to be offended by me staring down the front of her blouse if she doesn't know I'm staring >:D


Boy, I wish we just came to that accord before we had like a 5 page debate about the whole thing :P
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#80 Jun 09 2010 at 2:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I think Aurelius but it pretty well when it comes to this whole argument of should you be able to check some one or not...its probably best if the notification is removed.

Lets face it, some people are jerks, and telling them 'don't examine me' might may as well sound like 'examine me non stop for the next half hour' to them.

The merits of checking really do just out weigh that of removing it all together. Though LaFey is right that more focus should be put on the players skill then what they are wearing, If they 'are' really good, chances are some one might ask them what kind of equipment they are using. Now if they feel like answering that...it could take a good amount of time that /check would answer in a few seconds.

Though I think ultimately, its a good thing. I remember my first time ever getting to Jeuno in FFXI and seeing a PLD in full Iron Musketeer's gear. With a quick check...it became my new life's goal to wear that set of armor.
#81 Jun 09 2010 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Though I think ultimately, its a good thing. I remember my first time ever getting to Jeuno in FFXI and seeing a PLD in full Iron Musketeer's gear. With a quick check...it became my new life's goal to wear that set of armor.


This is one of the reasons I feel that it is in SE's best interest to have such a feature, especially if there is a diversity of gear in XIV. Of course, having decent stats on your gear is great and all, but every now and then, I would find something on someone else that I hadn't seen before that looks friggin' cool, or is just a little bit unique. It then becomes one of my goals to go after getting that item and sporting it around, and it's a lot easier to see what it is using the check feature then searching "ffxiv orange and yellow helmet with funny shapes and stuff" on google.
#82 Jun 09 2010 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
Eske wrote:

Boy, I wish we just came to that accord before we had like a 5 page debate about the whole thing :P


Not to reopen an old wound, but sadly that's what happens when people don't read what's written. My issue with the check system in XI was that it was designed in a way that made a segment of the population uncomfortable. For that reason, in the context of XI I took issue with the ego-centric people who basically said, "I don't care if it bothers you, I'm going to do it anyway". The JP said, "Please ask before examining my gear." I said, "Okay." A bunch of other NA said, ********** you." That was my issue, not that I was against the check system. I'm against the segment of the population that behaves with a ********** you" attitude while sitting around hive-fiving themselves for being such good little contributors to the community. So if you take the good (the check system) and strip out the bad (the notification) you eliminate the conflict.

And really, the only reason I bring it up is because it would appear that there has been a certain level of miscommunication in the past and under the new era of peace ushered in by the Kaolian, I'd rather just clarify and be done with it so everyone can move on shiny, happy, productive members of forum society.
#83 Jun 09 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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Eeeeeeeeeehhh. I'm sure we'll come up with something else.
I'm still waiting for this whole first/last name business to elegantly blowup in SE's face.

#84 Jun 09 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
it's not a matter of legitimacy, it's a matter of policy about players' privacy. what use is it to inspect someone? you can't use the information to help the other player at all. the only thing this feature actually does is allow players to make judgements about others based on (misleading, or simply irrelevant!) misinformation. this is simply a misuse of information for a malicious act.


I do think there is a legitimate use to inspect. Forget helping the other person, because not everyone is receptive of criticism (constructive or otherwise). I like the inspect feature because it helps me. When I saw other players higher level then me while leveling up, it was good to inspect them and get ideas on what to buy for the upcoming levels. Even at cap it was nice to be able to inspect other players of the same job who I thought played really well, research the gear they had and maybe even ask them why they picked certain pieces to see if I would like to upgrade to that piece.

Yes you can say, "well just ask the person if you are interested," but sometimes you want to do a little research by yourself or are too shy or don't know the person that well.

They may be "social stigmas" (legitimate or otherwise) to inspecting, but it would be foolish to say there is absolutely no benefit to /check
#85 Jun 09 2010 at 10:32 AM Rating: Default
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I don't see why people get so angry about being inspected. It's not like the inspector can steal your stuff, or use that information against you to PK you in some way. If they wanna inspect you and then hate on you for your gear then I'm not sure they'll be playing XIV for a terribly long time, there's already a game designed for them. I can see how checking might be a mild irritant just because it takes up a line in the chat log, but seriously, unless your being spam checked get over yourself and finish your mission. This is one of those "Waaaah, I don't have enough to whine about" things. It is an interesting topic of discussion but if you really have to get angry and visceral about something as silly as this, then please just wipe your nose and return to your mat.
#86LaFey, Posted: Jun 09 2010 at 12:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) there's no real benefit to inspection: if you can't make your own informed decisions about gameplay, then the game has failed in a fundamental way.
#87 Jun 09 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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/nudgewhisper
Eske was taking to Aurelius.

Just to be sure we're on the same ground.

Are you by chance thinking of a /check that's more all inclusive, like displaying a player's ability choices? Because while that is in WoW, that's by no means a standard. I'm pretty sure most people here are talking about the kind they're familiar with in XI, of the solely Equipment variety.

Edited, Jun 9th 2010 2:44pm by Zemzelette
#88LaFey, Posted: Jun 09 2010 at 12:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) and i was defending him...
#89 Jun 09 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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If you're rocking a level 1 magic wand on your level 72 warrior, your ability to play the game should come into question.
#90 Jun 09 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Callipho wrote:

If you're rocking a level 1 magic wand on your level 72 warrior, your ability to play the game should come into question.


True, but then we have situations like the one over in the XI forums right now where someone posted some screen shots of peoples' gear that honestly, isn't all that catastrophic. Did he really think that this would help them become better players? Answer honestly, now.

That's the kind of asshatery that people are worried about with the /check feature, and you know, it really isn't all that unfounded.

I'm not personally for or against it, but I understand why some people are worried.

#91 Jun 09 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Eske wrote:

Boy, I wish we just came to that accord before we had like a 5 page debate about the whole thing :P


Not to reopen an old wound, but sadly that's what happens when people don't read what's written. My issue with the check system in XI was that it was designed in a way that made a segment of the population uncomfortable. For that reason, in the context of XI I took issue with the ego-centric people who basically said, "I don't care if it bothers you, I'm going to do it anyway". The JP said, "Please ask before examining my gear." I said, "Okay." A bunch of other NA said, "@#%^ you." That was my issue, not that I was against the check system. I'm against the segment of the population that behaves with a "@#%^ you" attitude while sitting around hive-fiving themselves for being such good little contributors to the community. So if you take the good (the check system) and strip out the bad (the notification) you eliminate the conflict.

And really, the only reason I bring it up is because it would appear that there has been a certain level of miscommunication in the past and under the new era of peace ushered in by the Kaolian, I'd rather just clarify and be done with it so everyone can move on shiny, happy, productive members of forum society.


Oh, right. I forgot about that. We still disagree on that level, but no need to re-hash it here.

LaFey wrote:
there's no real benefit to inspection: if you can't make your own informed decisions about gameplay, then the game has failed in a fundamental way.


A few of us have demonstrated a beneficial and positive way to use /check. I don't think that you've proven that it doesn't exist, rather, you just seem to not like it. I won't dispute that it would have helped if FFXI was a little bit more transparent about equipment stats and gameplay, so that we didn't have to rely so much on outside sources or /checking good players to get a feel for what worked best. But even in a perfect scenario, I'm sure there would always be room for some differences in equipment. Heck, I'm hoping that FFXIV will be so balanced that a large variety of equipment sets will be viable for any class. With more possible layouts, and the ability to dye them, there'd be even more incentive to /check to identify armor, and learn about new equipping methods.
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#92 Jun 09 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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Ahhhh. That explains it.

Putting aside information exchange for the moment;
Armor originally existed for bragging rights purposes, being that it was the sole carrot, so it makes sense that it's visible to other players. Less sense nowadays, but, originally there was a pretty good reason. Complete character rundown has no correlation to bragging rights, so, it stands on shaky ground.

Bringing information exchange back into the discussion;
As far as informed decisions about gameplay goes; while a game sure as holy heck is capable of explaining what the rules are, I'm not really sure if a game is capable of providing you with a place to look at all your available choices. Auction Houses come kind of close for items. In ye olde days your Class Trainer used to fit that role for abilities.

But in the age of EX items and learning abilities on-the-go? I don't know if an MMO can ever fully equip you with the knowledge you need to make an informed choice.


Edited, Jun 9th 2010 4:35pm by Zemzelette
#93 Jun 09 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Default
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If you can sign items, you can check items.

Signing items will be in game, So, checking will be in game.

Im all for it. I used to love to **** off the JP and the want-a-be NA players who acted like JP's.

Edited, Jun 10th 2010 2:56pm by Daggit
#94 Jun 09 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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LaFey wrote:


and i was defending him...

i'm not really sure there is a huge difference between an equipment/items only inspection and a total character rundown. either way, you're still judging a player by something that isn't his ability to play the game.


Gear and ability choices are part of one's "ability to play the game" - they are not separate things. Items and abilities are the tools you use in-game, and a large part of skill is using the right tools for the job. There's nothing wrong with not using the best tools if they're out of reach; but using the wrong tool (or even worse, going out of your way to use the wrong tool) is a clear sign that one's ability is lacking.

The MNK who's wearing Battle Gloves is most likely a better player than the one who's wearing Master Caster's Mitts.
#95 Jun 09 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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LaFey wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
No, that was a relitivly polite observation with a suggested course of action. You really don't want to see censorship. One might want to keep that in mind, along with what an acceptable and adequate response to a forum admin suggestion might be. I'll give you a hint: That wasn't it.

Administrator Kaolian


don't threaten me. you deleted my post for no reason other than that you personally didn't like it.


Why do I get the feeling that LaFey won't be around much longer?

Protip: Getting confrontational to an admin, especially one who is well known around here for his familiarity with and frequent use of the mute button... Not a bright idea.

As was pointed out; you might have reasonable arguments in there somewhere, but you're so **** abrasive about it that even people who might have agreed with you don't care anymore.

Enjoy your rate downs, followed likely by your inevitable ban if you are going to tell admins not to threaten you.

Meanwhile, back on the farm...

BastokFL wrote:
LaFey wrote:


and i was defending him...

i'm not really sure there is a huge difference between an equipment/items only inspection and a total character rundown. either way, you're still judging a player by something that isn't his ability to play the game.


Gear and ability choices are part of one's "ability to play the game" - they are not separate things. Items and abilities are the tools you use in-game, and a large part of skill is using the right tools for the job. There's nothing wrong with not using the best tools if they're out of reach; but using the wrong tool (or even worse, going out of your way to use the wrong tool) is a clear sign that one's ability is lacking.

The MNK who's wearing Battle Gloves is most likely a better player than the one who's wearing Master Caster's Mitts.


Exactly. There's a fine line between booting someone because they have a Vermillion Cloak instead of a Vermy +1, or an Electrum Ring instead of a Serket Ring... It's another thing to boot a Monk from your party when he's wearing a Vermy and two Electrums.

If you're walking around town, you're entitled to wear whatever gear you want, and I wouldn't give a guy sh*t if he's wearing 6/6 AF2 (class irrelevant) in town or on a chocobo. But once they start casting/hitting and they're still wearing holiday event gear in a merit party, then yes, I call their ability to play the game into question.

Regardless, there are several valid reasons that /check is a useful feature to have. The only reason against it is that "Some people don't want their gear examined"; and the only LOGICAL reason to not want your gear examined is because you are embarrassed about it. If you're wearing what you feel is perfectly acceptable gear, you shouldn't be concerned with other people seeing you in it. And the "privacy" issue is silly. Would you cover your car in a black sheet so people can't see what car you drive?

The only possibility I can see is that you are just that severely paranoid that the mere though of other people even looking at you freaks you out to the point that you never leave your house. If you are genuinely so paranoid that you don't want ANYONE seeing your gear... there are plenty of single player games out there for you. I can't see the point in wanting everyone to just leave you alone and exist in your own little world while playing an MMORPG. I just can't.

If you're going to play solo, then wear whatever the @#%^ you want to wear; most people will leave you alone. But you can't make the argument that you want to play a game with other people, group with them, but that you don't want them to know what you're wearing when you know your gear is abysmal, when the real question you should be asking yourself is: Why am I so selfish that my happiness must depend on being the weakest member of the group?

Like I said, the only logical conclusion I can come up with that doesn't involve being a paranoid tinfoil-hat nutcase is that you KNOW your gear is bad, you WANT to group with people, and you're afraid that with a check feature, people will REALIZE how bad you are and you will get less groups as a result.

Aside from this "I want privacy on an online game with hundreds of thousands of other people so that I can play it as if it were single player and not be disturbed by anyone" nonsense, there's nothing there.

Edited, Jun 9th 2010 6:43pm by Mikhalia
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#96 Jun 09 2010 at 6:03 PM Rating: Default
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BastokFL wrote:
Gear and ability choices are part of one's "ability to play the game" - they are not separate things. Items and abilities are the tools you use in-game, and a large part of skill is using the right tools for the job. There's nothing wrong with not using the best tools if they're out of reach; but using the wrong tool (or even worse, going out of your way to use the wrong tool) is a clear sign that one's ability is lacking.

The MNK who's wearing Battle Gloves is most likely a better player than the one who's wearing Master Caster's Mitts.


there's a confusion between causal relationships and correlation, here. a causal relationship would be if you could only play very well because of your gear. the actual relationship between your ability to play the game and your current equipment is that of correlation only. there are many reasons you may not have the absolute best gear, and only one of them is because you don't know how to play the game.

for example, what if i had a life and didn't spend the bajillion hours it requires to farm the parts to make the best gear? i could be the best player ever and still not have gear due to things being more important than a game -- why should i be discriminated against by other players for having a job and being productive elsewhere in life? why should the game mechanically encourage this discrimination?

the point you're showing here depends entirely upon a clear causal relationship between a player's ability to interact successfully with the game and the gear he has equipped. however, the assumption of this relationship is shown to be categorically false.

Mikhalia wrote:
Why do I get the feeling that LaFey won't be around much longer?


an internet tyrant flexes his muscles in an overtly abusive display of misuse of power, and it's got you cowed. why would you stand for it? why bother with a (now) backwoods community run by bullies and unchecked totalitarian censorship? it's suddenly not ok to suffer the presence of fools? it's against the terms of use to tell someone you think little of them? what's next, it's against the rules to hold any opinion at all that might conflict with any of the moderators? oh. that's already happened just now, hasn't it...?

they're humans. just like you and me. and they can be told they're wrong even if they pitch a childish fit about it and delete a bunch of posts. deleting things you don't like doesn't make you more right, it doesn't make them more wrong, and it sure is a great proof of how ****** a person you are.
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#97 Jun 09 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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@ Mikhalia

Hmmm.

I wish you wouldn't paint such a universal picture like that. You got chewed out for /inspecting in Everquest too.
Granted, that covers peeking into inventory as well which would probably squick even the nosiest of modern gamers, but there was obviously no cultural basis for it.

Also, we played just fine in Guildwars. You had to explain what an inspect feature was to the folks there. It was such a bizarre and outlandish concept, they couldn't even grasp why you'd ever want it.

The world has changed, yesterday's 'no confidence vote' is today's 'hello', I recognize that.
There is a severe lack of ingame information that checking does help alleviate, and with the advent of the casual era you have justification for your want of a competency check. But the universal thing gets under my skin.



Actually, now I'm not sure if that was Everquest or Ultima. (Does this mean I'm getting old? ;_;)



Edited, Jun 10th 2010 2:11am by Zemzelette
#98 Jun 09 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
LaFey wrote:
they're humans. just like you and me. and they can be told they're wrong even if they pitch a childish fit about it and delete a bunch of posts. deleting things you don't like doesn't make you more right, it doesn't make them more wrong, and it sure is a great proof of how sh*tty a person you are.


None of your posts in this thread have been nuked by an admin. At least one of them was rated down by the posters here and will only show up if you set your filter to "Never filter".
#99 Jun 09 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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All right...So far it looks like in general alot of LaFey's argument has to do with combat classes. Now I ask...What about Crafting and Gathering classes? How do you wall think /check will effect them?

I personally would like my main class to be a Miner with some side Blacksmithing. Now, if I'm Blacksmithing then what people are wearing is WAY more important to me then it is even the combat classes. I have to make the stuff, so I need to know 'what' to make after all.

Gear and checking gear are nearly essential to 2/3's of the classes in the game, the classes that funny enough...might not be using the gear.

If a Blacksmith wants to do there job, they need a game plan. Crafting is all about economics, and part of that is knowing "what are people wearing?". If no one is buying all those Copper shields you've been making for the past two days then its time to go out in the field and find out what the people are using these days.

What the combat classes are wearing effects the demand for different types of gear, which effects what the crafting classes create, and that effects what the gathering classes gather. If the combat classes don't really need gear...well then you got 2/3rds of the games classes out of a job.
#100 Jun 09 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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LaFey wrote:


don't threaten me. you deleted my post for no reason other than that you personally didn't like it.


I never, ever threaten, I only promise...
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#101 Jun 09 2010 at 6:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
LaFey wrote:
they're humans. just like you and me. and they can be told they're wrong even if they pitch a childish fit about it and delete a bunch of posts. deleting things you don't like doesn't make you more right, it doesn't make them more wrong, and it sure is a great proof of how sh*tty a person you are.


None of your posts in this thread have been nuked by an admin. At least one of them was rated down by the posters here and will only show up if you set your filter to "Never filter".


I suspect he is referring to the flame post of his I did nuke in FFXI main. We'll see if he can behave in 24 hours. If not, oh well.
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