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Happy About Death PenaltyFollow

#1 Apr 30 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Not sure if a thread has gone over this yet -

Based on the information that has been gathered, it appears as if the death penalty (at least in alpha) is a weakness similar to FFXI, however without an EXP loss or other penalty.

PROS -
Not receiving an EXP penalty allows players to attempt things that otherwise they would be hesitant to attempt, therefore allowing more players to freely adventure.

CONS -
Players will attempt things that otherwise they would be hesitant to attempt lol. Having someone run into battle with you not nearly prepared, not fearing death.



All in all however I believe losing EXP is too severe a punishment, and would be happy with the change. Thoughts?
#2 Apr 30 2010 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Armor durability has not been implemented to the game yet.

One could make some conclusions regarding the future of death penalty out of that.



If it wasn't for the fact that other people or your connection can get you killed, I'd maybe even go as far as recommend Demon's Souls type death penalty.. /grin.
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#3 Apr 30 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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Ya you forgot armor durability, I definitely think this will be a death penalty as well. I too am pleased with the weakness and armor durability as being the death penalty.

Edited, Apr 30th 2010 1:59pm by HocusP
#4 Apr 30 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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i wish they brought back xp penalties. I would prefer if it was 5% and you never leveled down, or if you were max leve IE 75/99 there was no punishment.

Having only a weakness is a little too... easy. Armor durability if it comes it makes up a bit but i would rather have something actually punishing like XP loss.

Although i wouldn't have... XP loss and a weakness... cause that's just cruel.

It seems more like a WoW clone every day.. kinda disappointing but time will tell. Seems like they are taking a great step towards more casual though.
#5 Apr 30 2010 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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Man I wish people would stop throwing around WoW clone its getting beyond anoying.

If you have unrealistic assumptions that its going to copy FF11 then thats your fault.
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#6 Apr 30 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
boriss wrote:
i wish they brought back xp penalties. I would prefer if it was 5% and you never leveled down, or if you were max leve IE 75/99 there was no punishment.

Having only a weakness is a little too... easy. Armor durability if it comes it makes up a bit but i would rather have something actually punishing like XP loss.

Although i wouldn't have... XP loss and a weakness... cause that's just cruel.

It seems more like a WoW clone every day.. kinda disappointing but time will tell. Seems like they are taking a great step towards more casual though.


Good thing I read your whole post, from the beginning it seems as if you're advocating a weakness and an exp loss ala FFXI. I was going to cry.

That being said, I am all for having a weakness and durability if that's what it takes. I will not stand for grinding for 2 hours only to lose it because of a bad pull.
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#7 Apr 30 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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Everything translates to Time lost.

Exp, gil, armor durability (which is gil too). With each of these you're losing Time. Doesn't matter what it will be.

Also boriss, I have even worse news for you: there will be swords and sorcery in FFXIV too. And mana!

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#8 Apr 30 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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I've always hated the XP loss. It's a slap in the face, especially considering the amount of effort involved for certain jobs to get experience.

Now in FFXI it's a little better than before, but as someone who did a lot of his leveling back when people listed "Moon access" in their search comment, I can tell you dying was a serious setback. Not only do you fail at what ever you were attempting, lose expensive/time consuming consumables, potentially lose a level, lose access to gear/spells, and if you have no raise you get sent back to START without so much as a "Have a nice day!".

It's excessive and really does nothing to "prevent stupidity" as some might say. If anything it stifles creativity and encourages strict conformity, as who wants to try something new when you risk so much hard-won progress?
#9 Apr 30 2010 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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It would be cool if we got something like CoH/V's debt system. On a death, you didn't level down or lose xp, but gained a "debt". For every xp gaining action, half of the xp went to you and the other half went to pay off the debt. I think it worked great. There was still the loss of time, but not such a harsh penalty as de-leveling.
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#10 Apr 30 2010 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I doubt armor durability will be in FFXIV since it wasn't in any way shape or form a part of any final fantasy game ever made. **** it barely even fits in the WoW universe anymore beyond some annoying old school mechanic. I would seriously prefer to just lose some copper on death rather than be forced to run to some NPC for repair and just do away with the entire concept of repairing altogether...

IMO it only fits in games directly like Diablo or Ultima online where the repair mechanic is more meaningful in that your armor eventually degrades because max durability goes down after each repair....

Also a system based around weakness is worse than it sounds.
If you wipe to a boss you will be forced to wait out the full duration... Imagine waiting 10-20 minutes after each death... That is plenty for me to not want to die IMO..

Edited, Apr 30th 2010 3:31pm by thorazinekizzez
#11 Apr 30 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Diakar wrote:

If you have unrealistic assumptions that its going to copy FF11 then thats your fault.


All evidence points to this being very similar to FFXI minus the stuff that made FFXI not so good... So far anyway...
#12 Apr 30 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Good
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Here is the thing, you have to have some sort of penalty or essentially living and dying are nothing more than inconveniences. I remember playing FFXI and the tank dying and man I'll be damned if I didn't see people take off for the zone in locations with every thing they had. Like their lives were truly on the line. In WoW, come on guys just die and wipe it. Your life literally means nothing. Dying shouldn't be a trivial setback, rather it should be something that has a consequence that you will want to go to great lengths to avoid.

I remember making my first treacherous trip to Jeuno from Bastok. I was under leveled, and everything in Rolanberry could've one or two shotted me, but the risk and adrenaline I felt were simply amazing. I never really got any kind of feeling like that exploring in WoW, and I think FF14 could do well bringing fun back into the game.
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#13 Apr 30 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Decent
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All evidence points to this being very similar to FFXI minus the stuff that made FFXI not so good... So far anyway...


This.

It's similar it some aspects, espeically the look and feel of the game, but the actual game mechanics are surprising different, subjob system has been expanded to allow players to choose skills from all and any class (excluding a few skills), dual leveling, gil drops from all mobs, all leves provide items/gear/gil, easy travel via Aetherite.

There is a big emphasis on making the game more accessible which is great, nobody wants to play a game where the feeling of risk outweights the purpose, if they do then perhaps they should stick with FF11.


Edited, Apr 30th 2010 4:33pm by Diakar
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#14 Apr 30 2010 at 3:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
I doubt armor durability will be in FFXIV since it wasn't in any way shape or form a part of any final fantasy game ever made.


It's been known since fall of '09 that weapons, shields and armor will all deteriorate and need repair in FFXIV. Confirmed in an early interview here:

http://www.curse.com/blogs/final-fantasy-xiv-news/archive/2009/09/11/new-ffxiv-information-from-dengeki.aspx
#15 Apr 30 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
I can deal with a brief weakened state...it was the xp loss that always struck me as excessive. Add in durability loss and there's still enough of a reminder that dying is less than ideal.
#16 Apr 30 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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How about they split the difference? If you die, you may take some sort of durability hit, but the primary penalty is a reduction in xp gained for the next 5-10, or however many, minutes. That method should give people incentive not to take leveling too lightly and still allow for plenty of experimentation in events.
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#17 Apr 30 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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I didnt mind the xp loss in 11. It was just that it was too much xp loss imo. Especially before they adjusted it, even after they adjusted the xp loss, it still seemed like too much.

I can understand why a lot of pple disliked xp loss tho , it could be incredibly frustrating, and a huge waste of time.
The only reason I liked it was because it gave you a huge reason to stay alive and haul *** to the next zone, or just gave you that extra OH CRAP feeling when things got out of hand.
As I said tho Im fine with the change.

Actually constantly repairing my gear in wow annoyed me too , even tho gold was luckily so easy to obtain , it was just tedious

I remember my funniest moment in ff11 , was when my 75 galka rdm friend died in front of me and de leveled to 74 lol.
I was laughing so hard at him on vent lol. He thought it was funny too but he was mad as **** lol
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#18 Apr 30 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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desmar wrote:
I remember playing FFXI and the tank dying and man I'll be damned if I didn't see people take off for the zone in locations with every thing they had. Like their lives were truly on the line. In WoW, come on guys just die and wipe it. Your life literally means nothing. Dying shouldn't be a trivial setback, rather it should be something that has a consequence that you will want to go to great lengths to avoid.

No... people still ran for their lives in WoW, but the main difference between the two games is that you could usually get away in FFXI and you couldn't in WoW. In FFXI--in a party--you were often in an open zone which you could easily walk out of; and there were plenty of moves/items available to everyone to help them escape (sneak/invis items were common for jsut about everyone). In WoW if you're in a party then you're likely in an instance. You have a long and narrow path essentially with mobs that slow when they hit you and patrols that spawn behind you.
#19 Apr 30 2010 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
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havashank wrote:
thorazinekizzez wrote:
I doubt armor durability will be in FFXIV since it wasn't in any way shape or form a part of any final fantasy game ever made.


It's been known since fall of '09 that weapons, shields and armor will all deteriorate and need repair in FFXIV. Confirmed in an early interview here:


I vaguely remember this too but its often the case that ideas like this are taken out during the prototype phase.

Do we know for sure that they are still planning to add this feature in? Or was it scrapped?
#20 Apr 30 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
desmar wrote:
Here is the thing, you have to have some sort of penalty or essentially living and dying are nothing more than inconveniences. I remember playing FFXI and the tank dying and man I'll be damned if I didn't see people take off for the zone in locations with every thing they had. Like their lives were truly on the line. In WoW, come on guys just die and wipe it. Your life literally means nothing. Dying shouldn't be a trivial setback, rather it should be something that has a consequence that you will want to go to great lengths to avoid.


Ya, because wasting time to avoid wasting time was such a rewarding mechanic. Dying in an MMO...dying in a video game in general...is an inevitabiilty. It shouldn't be something you're prepared to waste a half an hour in order to avoid.

Quote:
I remember making my first treacherous trip to Jeuno from Bastok. I was under leveled, and everything in Rolanberry could've one or two shotted me, but the risk and adrenaline I felt were simply amazing. I never really got any kind of feeling like that exploring in WoW, and I think FF14 could do well bringing fun back into the game.


That probably has more to do with the wonder of your first MMO and nothing to do with a death penalty. When I went back to FFXI a few months ago for the free trial, I made the run to Jeuno at level 18. There was nothing in Pashow/Rolanberry that I could have survived if it got the jump on me. It wasn't thrilling. It wasn't even challenging. It was just a long run. The incentive to succeed is the carrot on the end of the stick, not avoiding the penalty for failure.
#21 Apr 30 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
desmar wrote:
I remember playing FFXI and the tank dying and man I'll be damned if I didn't see people take off for the zone in locations with every thing they had. Like their lives were truly on the line. In WoW, come on guys just die and wipe it. Your life literally means nothing. Dying shouldn't be a trivial setback, rather it should be something that has a consequence that you will want to go to great lengths to avoid.

No... people still ran for their lives in WoW, but the main difference between the two games is that you could usually get away in FFXI and you couldn't in WoW. In FFXI--in a party--you were often in an open zone which you could easily walk out of; and there were plenty of moves/items available to everyone to help them escape (sneak/invis items were common for jsut about everyone). In WoW if you're in a party then you're likely in an instance. You have a long and narrow path essentially with mobs that slow when they hit you and patrols that spawn behind you.


yeah especially if your wiping to a raid boss. I don't feel obligated to try and live during those kinds of situations in wow.. But man in FFXI I swear to **** I would run my *** from the basement of Garliage Citadel chain spell and binding bats and sh*t on the way. "@#%^ THIS I AM NOT GOING TO @#%^ING DIE !!!!"

Also I rarely died as a level 75 on any of my jobs. maintaining a 4.4k buffer on everything was simple. reraise 3 might have cheapened my fear of death a tad. But it literally took the hand of god for me to give up on rdm... I am not kidding, I would train mobs from the peak of uleground range all the way to the zone lol....

With that said, campaign changed my fear of death when I had tags on though. Large scale PVE battles feel as though they are just better with no penalty at all. Imagine if running battlegrounds had the same repair cost as pve.. I wouldn't want to even play the game then.... Though I wonder how it would effect things if people really cared about death in battlegrounds.. hmm

oh well... I guess its a good point to keep in mind that FFXIV will no doubt have events where there is zero death penalty just like in 11...

Edited, May 1st 2010 1:09am by thorazinekizzez
#22 May 01 2010 at 2:26 AM Rating: Good
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I think it's a good choice as long as they upped the severity of the death weakness so that death is still a scary prospect. I'd hate to see people pulling a Leroy Jenkins in every party just because they aren't afraid to die.
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#23 May 01 2010 at 4:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:
In WoW if you're in a party then you're likely in an instance. You have a long and narrow path essentially with mobs that slow when they hit you and patrols that spawn behind you.


Or worse, the door locks once you engage the boss, basically resigning you to your fate should you fail.

LestatXIV wrote:
I think it's a good choice as long as they upped the severity of the death weakness so that death is still a scary prospect. I'd hate to see people pulling a Leroy Jenkins in every party just because they aren't afraid to die.


Anyone who's going to pull a Leeroy on you and your group probably isn't deterred by the fear of death anyways, nor does the absence of a death penalty necessarily encourage them. What it does allow is for enterprising individuals to grief you by making sure that you and your entire group die horribly and have to deal with a hefty penalty while they log off and play MW2 for a bit.
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#24 May 01 2010 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:
[quote=Allegory]

Anyone who's going to pull a Leeroy on you and your group probably isn't deterred by the fear of death anyways, nor does the absence of a death penalty necessarily encourage them. What it does allow is for enterprising individuals to grief you by making sure that you and your entire group die horribly and have to deal with a hefty penalty while they log off and play MW2 for a bit.


I think that might have happened to me like 2-3 times in 2 + years in ff11, not a real big deal. Unless ff14 has server transfers, name changes and everybody playing alts , then it probably wont be a huge problem, because you have to pay the consequences of being a douche bag... unlike in wow.
Not having a go at wow either ( might even play cataclysm) but yeh there is no penalty for acting like an *** in wow
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#25 May 01 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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What it does allow is for enterprising individuals to grief you by making sure that you and your entire group die horribly and have to deal with a hefty penalty while they log off and play MW2 for a bit.


I played 11 for 5 years and never had this happen.
Mostly because in 11 I knew everyone I partied with after a year or 2.

I know this happens in other multi-toon games, but with a 1 character world I don't see it happening too often. If Seladora gets ***** and bails on my party, then no member of that party will play with Seladora again. And next time members of that party run into Seladora in a different party and warn the rest of the group. Word spreads and reputation actually counts when you cant jump to a new toon that'll be max level in 2 weeks. Having ones name smeared across the server is either going to make that person have to make a new toon throwing away who knows how many months of leveling and skilling, having to get another airship pass, choco quest, subjob quests, just wayyyy too much work, Or they'll just quit, and if someones gonna be a d-bag I don't mind if they go away.

As for the death penalty,
XP loss doesn't bother me, De-leveling bothers me.
CoH/V had an interesting penalty, instead of XP loss, you got XP debt. Debt meant that until it was paid off half your xp went to your total, the other half went to debt. Die too many times and you won't be leveling again for a long long time, but it's not going to outright cripple you in any way.
I'm not so sure if I like equipment repair.
It does have a bit of realism, but I hate having a piece shatter in combat when I'm on my way back to town. Dieing so close to home points make me sad.lol
#26 May 01 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
KingGhidora wrote:
It would be cool if we got something like CoH/V's debt system. On a death, you didn't level down or lose xp, but gained a "debt". For every xp gaining action, half of the xp went to you and the other half went to pay off the debt. I think it worked great. There was still the loss of time, but not such a harsh penalty as de-leveling.


EQ2 did this too, though the debt would slowly diminish over time, also. So if you were about to log anyways, or want go craft, you could let your debt go down on it's own.
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#27 May 01 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:
I remember making my first treacherous trip to Jeuno from Bastok. I was under leveled, and everything in Rolanberry could've one or two shotted me, but the risk and adrenaline I felt were simply amazing. I never really got any kind of feeling like that exploring in WoW, and I think FF14 could do well bringing fun back into the game.


That probably has more to do with the wonder of your first MMO and nothing to do with a death penalty. When I went back to FFXI a few months ago for the free trial, I made the run to Jeuno at level 18. There was nothing in Pashow/Rolanberry that I could have survived if it got the jump on me. It wasn't thrilling. It wasn't even challenging. It was just a long run. The incentive to succeed is the carrot on the end of the stick, not avoiding the penalty for failure.


You´re providing the same variable that falsifies the first statement (i.e. game experience). You mention
Quote:
When I went back to FFXI a few months ago [...] I made the run to Jeuno at level 18.
which is the cause of your lack of "thrillness." You´ve already experienced the game and, either counsiously or unconsiously, you know that dying at lv 18 is not that big deal (except, as you metion, the long run).

I have to admit that i also felt this excitment the first time i made my first trip to Jeuno from Sandy. And that's why i think EXP loss was so important in FFXI. Yea, a pain in the ***, but important. After all, you are DEAD. That's supposed to be a big deal. I´m no pro "armor durability penalty" cuz its going to put a really hard time again in the "making gil" department. Now, instead of saying ********** i'm dead! and i lost 1000 exp points!" we will find ourselves saying ********** i'm dead! this is going to cost me XXXX gil." I rather see myself leveling again but without worring about how much money i have left. Otherwhise, having an regular income of gil is going to be what matters. Is like if having the gil expense of RNGs and NIN jobs but for every class. I don´t think this follows a "casual" game experience. I don´t see myself being a casual gamer and having to spend XX number of hours earning enouhg gil just to compensate the loss of armor durability because of a bad "pull."
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#28 May 01 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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The whole running from Jueno thing plays out more like.. "no I don't wana die its sooo far to run back", you don't fear for your life, you fear for the effort you just wasted.

There is nothing romantic about just wasting the last 45-60 mins trying to get somewhere only to be placed back at square one again.

Edited, May 1st 2010 6:21pm by Diakar
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#29 May 02 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
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No weakness or exp loss... but instead, you're charged a dollar for each death.
There's your motivation. :P

That would create some... interesting... game situations. I'd love to see the very first forum thread called "Some N00B in my party put my checking account in overdraft."
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#30 May 02 2010 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The whole running from Jueno thing plays out more like.. "no I don't wana die its sooo far to run back", you don't fear for your life, you fear for the effort you just wasted.

There is nothing romantic about just wasting the last 45-60 mins trying to get somewhere only to be placed back at square one again.


One of the reasons why Demon's Souls is so awesome.
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#31 May 02 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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AmanoJ wrote:

No weakness or exp loss... but instead, you're charged a dollar for each death.
There's your motivation. :P

That would create some... interesting... game situations. I'd love to see the very first forum thread called "Some N00B in my party put my checking account in overdraft."


LOL ... this reminded me of a setup a friend wanted to do when mortal kombat first came out. He wanted to make an IV system that would slowly drain blood each time you were hit, first person to pass out lost - now that would make some interesting game situations.
#32 May 02 2010 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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SleeplessMickey wrote:
AmanoJ wrote:

No weakness or exp loss... but instead, you're charged a dollar for each death.
There's your motivation. :P

That would create some... interesting... game situations. I'd love to see the very first forum thread called "Some N00B in my party put my checking account in overdraft."


LOL ... this reminded me of a setup a friend wanted to do when mortal kombat first came out. He wanted to make an IV system that would slowly drain blood each time you were hit, first person to pass out lost - now that would make some interesting game situations.


maybe that'll be included in a future expansion, Final Fantasy XIV: Caligula's Playhouse
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#33 May 03 2010 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
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It seems more like a WoW clone every day


nope in wow you don't even have sickness if you rez at a spirit healer.. so superior to this being punished for trying things bullsh*t.

Quote:

There is nothing romantic about just wasting the last 45-60 mins trying to get somewhere only to be placed back at square one again.


exactly.

Edited, May 2nd 2010 11:23pm by GuardianFaith
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#34 May 03 2010 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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as if WoW was the first or only game to use the mechanics that it does...

i laugh indeed when kids come in and think everything started with WoW.
#35 May 03 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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LaFey wrote:
as if WoW was the first or only game to use the mechanics that it does...

i laugh indeed when kids come in and think everything started with WoW.


I remember death penalties in MMO precursors like MUDs and Magestorm, does that make me superior to you in any way?

If I played with a DM in D&D 1st edition that imposed death penalties similar to those in WoW, would that make me a better person?
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#36 May 03 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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LemmingKingXXX wrote:

I remember death penalties in MMO precursors like MUDs and Magestorm, does that make me superior to you in any way?


On this topic, yeah kinda :)
#37 May 03 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Default
LemmingKingXXX wrote:
LaFey wrote:
as if WoW was the first or only game to use the mechanics that it does...

i laugh indeed when kids come in and think everything started with WoW.


I remember death penalties in MMO precursors like MUDs and Magestorm, does that make me superior to you in any way?


Only if someone who walked 10 miles each way to school through 5 feet of snow in the blazing June sun is superior to you :P

Edit to add: I remember back in the day there was a BBS door game that I used to like. It was sort of an ASCII gladiator type thing where you had your little guy in an arena fighting against one or two meanie-head bad guys. True to form for door games back in those times, you were only allowed a certain number of fights/session. If you won, you got to keep the armor/weapon of the thing you defeated. If you lost, you lost all of your armor/weapons. I was so very close to being able to fight the biggest, meanest nasties the game had to offer after weeks of consequitive victories when...someone picked up the phone elsewhere in the house, the modem barfed its displeasure, and I signed back in to a naked character.

Of course, these days, internet connections are flawless 100% of the time, nobody ever experiences a power outage, game servers run flawlessly, and devs never really have to stop and think about whether or not it's fair or reasonable to heavily penalize players for things like untimely disconnects or any other circumstance beyond their control...


Edited, May 3rd 2010 9:28am by Aurelius
#38 May 03 2010 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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Lubriderm the Hand wrote:
KingGhidora wrote:
It would be cool if we got something like CoH/V's debt system. On a death, you didn't level down or lose xp, but gained a "debt". For every xp gaining action, half of the xp went to you and the other half went to pay off the debt. I think it worked great. There was still the loss of time, but not such a harsh penalty as de-leveling.


EQ2 did this too, though the debt would slowly diminish over time, also. So if you were about to log anyways, or want go craft, you could let your debt go down on it's own.


I actually find this idea really interesting and it would have worked VERY well if implemented for my situation in FFXI. That is not, of course, to say it would have worked for everyone else. Just saying that if we had options, I would definitely choose this.

For those of you complaining about the "WoW comparisons," honestly just get over it. People are making comparisons between games they are FAMILIAR with. It's better than them trying to use examples from games they know absolutely nothing about and therefore making them sound ignorant. If they want to make WoW their example, deal. It's because WoW is the most widely played MMO in the world and people actually know/care about it. Besides, don't act like half the posters aren't saying "WoW handled this best" or "I'm glad they're finally taking advice from Blizzard" or "This worked best in WoW because it's 'superior' (to use a word someone in this thread falsely related to how WoW handles death penalties)." It is all a matter of taste, and the people who like WoW-type games shouldn't get any advantage or special attention over the people who like FF-type games. This game is not WoW and that's why people don't want to see it become "like WoW" or any other similar MMO. I'm not saying WoW doesn't handle things well; I think it fits a lot of people's playing tastes which is why it is so popular. That being said, it is not everyone's ideal choice for a game by any means. In fact, I wouldn't even say it is the majority of the populations ideal choice for an MMO. Besides, you can't really say WoW handles anything best if you haven't played every single other MMO out there. I think this is more of a problem than relating things to WoW even though other MMO's do the same things. It is distinction that is important.

As for the "WoW clone" comments, these make complete sense to me when I read them because I actually understand what the poster is trying to say. They are trying to say that, in their opinions, this game is being made so similar to another MMO (they use WoW as an example because this is what they know) that it worries them. I'm not saying I agree here, but how does this not make sense to other people? FFXIV fans are looking for a new game that fits their play-style, likes, idea of a community, etc. When it begins to fit familiarly into their dislikes or resembles a game that they played and disliked, they start to notice and comment. In my opinion, FFXI players have a bit of an excuse to be worried about this sort of thing because unfortunately, FFXI is a dying game and one of their options is being eliminated. They like FFXI, which is why they don't want to see it become similar to WoW, because WoW is still a viable option in the gaming world and probably will be for a while. So for them, the question stands: Why don't you just keep playing WoW (since it;s so superior) so they can have a different gaming option...?
#39 May 03 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Bluefirefly wrote:
Why don't you just keep playing WoW (since it;s so superior) so they can have a different gaming option...?


WoW has great gameplay, but the setting is kinda bleh. On the flipside, FFXI has a great setting, but the gameplay is ****. It's like WoW has chocolate, FFXI has peanut butter, but both are covered in ****. Get rid of the **** and combine the chocolate and peanut butter already! Make the perfect game!
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#40 May 03 2010 at 11:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
Bluefirefly wrote:
Why don't you just keep playing WoW (since it;s so superior) so they can have a different gaming option...?


WoW has great gameplay, but the setting is kinda bleh. On the flipside, FFXI has a great setting, but the gameplay is sh*t. It's like WoW has chocolate, FFXI has peanut butter, but both are covered in sh*t. Get rid of the sh*t and combine the chocolate and peanut butter already! Make the perfect game!


But that's exactly what I'm trying to differentiate between. Certain people like the gameplay of FFXI as well. A pretty game is not enough to keep many players around for long, especially not the 8-year veterans of FFXI. It's a matter of opinion on whether combining what you consider the better aspects of WoW and better aspects of FFXI would make the perfect game. I'm sure Blizzard will make a new version of WoW soon enough that has a better setting if that's really all you guys are looking for. It's kind of silly, in my opinion, to expect the exact same game but more aesthetically pleasing out of FFXIV. A lot of people do not want to see the "WoW clone with better graphics/scenery/character choices" out of FFXIV (to further the argument of my above post).
#41 May 03 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Bluefirefly wrote:
But that's exactly what I'm trying to differentiate between. Certain people like the gameplay of FFXI as well. A pretty game is not enough to keep many players around for long, especially not the 8-year veterans of FFXI. It's a matter of opinion on whether combining what you consider the better aspects of WoW and better aspects of FFXI would make the perfect game. I'm sure Blizzard will make a new version of WoW soon enough that has a better setting if that's really all you guys are looking for. It's kind of silly, in my opinion, to expect the exact same game but more aesthetically pleasing out of FFXIV. A lot of people do not want to see the "WoW clone with better graphics/scenery/character choices" out of FFXIV (to further the argument of my above post).


I wouldn't go so far as to desire the exact same game, but I would prefer it if SE took some of the smarter design choices that were present in WoW and other games, as well as the smarter design choices of FFXI, and used those in creating a better game.

Nobody should want FFXI with prettier graphics, either, especially since a lot of players, past and present, have complained endlessly about the endless grind in that game and the rampant elitism it causes for even the most mundane activities. I shouldn't need a pair of level 34 gloves or a full set of level 50 staves just to find a group to gain experience with. I shouldn't be punished by death with a level-down that makes me unable to equip all the shiny new stuff I just bought. I shouldn't be wearing level 7 boots for 30+ levels as my BiS piece because SE is too ******* lazy and/or incompetent to do proper itemization. I want crafting to be more consistent; no level 30+ items mixed in with my level 20+ items at 30 skill, and certainly no low-level items at the higher ends of skill.

In other words, I want them to take their last game, take out or fix all of the ******** elements that ultimately made it terrible, apply some of the ideas of other games that have come out in the last decade, and combine it all into something unique that people will want to play. People like me, people like FFXI vets.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#42 May 03 2010 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Bluefirefly wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Bluefirefly wrote:
Why don't you just keep playing WoW (since it;s so superior) so they can have a different gaming option...?


WoW has great gameplay, but the setting is kinda bleh. On the flipside, FFXI has a great setting, but the gameplay is sh*t. It's like WoW has chocolate, FFXI has peanut butter, but both are covered in sh*t. Get rid of the sh*t and combine the chocolate and peanut butter already! Make the perfect game!


But that's exactly what I'm trying to differentiate between. Certain people like the gameplay of FFXI as well. A pretty game is not enough to keep many players around for long, especially not the 8-year veterans of FFXI. It's a matter of opinion on whether combining what you consider the better aspects of WoW and better aspects of FFXI would make the perfect game. I'm sure Blizzard will make a new version of WoW soon enough that has a better setting if that's really all you guys are looking for. It's kind of silly, in my opinion, to expect the exact same game but more aesthetically pleasing out of FFXIV. A lot of people do not want to see the "WoW clone with better graphics/scenery/character choices" out of FFXIV (to further the argument of my above post).


I agree with you Bluefirefly.

The problem with WoW clones is that there are so freakin' many of them. I enjoyed MMO's before the WoW days when they were challenging and progress was actually meaningful. Most all MMO's released post WoW are extreme casual friendly and are quite frankly boring to play after a month. Seeing yet another game fall into this pattern, especialy one with a challenging predecessor like FFXI, is disappointing. There are already plenty of casual games out there, and they aren't going to top WoW. We don't need any more.

Edited, May 3rd 2010 2:09pm by Calispel
#43 May 03 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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Calispel wrote:
The problem with WoW clones is that there are so freakin' many of them.

That's because they aren't clones. It's so annoying to hear people constantly abuse the term. There has been a genre shift. Do you know what early FPS games were called? Doom clones. Early dungeon RPGs were called roguelikes.

There has been a genre shift/split. Games like Lotro and WAR aren't copying WoW so much as they are embracing a new style of MMORPG. You don't consider FFXI to be an EQ clone do you; even though comparatively that's exactly what it is.

"WoW clone" is as tired a comment as it is flawed.
#44 May 03 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Calispel wrote:
The problem with WoW clones is that there are so freakin' many of them.

That's because they aren't clones. It's so annoying to hear people constantly abuse the term. There has been a genre shift. Do you know what early FPS games were called? Doom clones. Early dungeon RPGs were called roguelikes.

There has been a genre shift/split. Games like Lotro and WAR aren't copying WoW so much as they are embracing a new style of MMORPG. You don't consider FFXI to be an EQ clone do you; even though comparatively that's exactly what it is.

"WoW clone" is as tired a comment as it is flawed.


Yeah but WoW is western RPG and FFXI is eastern RPG.
Also, if you are going to copy something so closely you better **** well do it better or you are doomed to failure....

As other genres such as the FPS they did improve over the years and even branched off. Where is in the MMO field this has yet to happen. Playing Conan is quite literally playing a crappy version of wow....

Edited, May 3rd 2010 3:51pm by thorazinekizzez
#45 May 03 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
Calispel wrote:
The problem with WoW clones is that there are so freakin' many of them.

That's because they aren't clones. It's so annoying to hear people constantly abuse the term. There has been a genre shift. Do you know what early FPS games were called? Doom clones. Early dungeon RPGs were called roguelikes.

There has been a genre shift/split. Games like Lotro and WAR aren't copying WoW so much as they are embracing a new style of MMORPG. You don't consider FFXI to be an EQ clone do you; even though comparatively that's exactly what it is.

"WoW clone" is as tired a comment as it is flawed.


I don't consider FFXI to be an EQ clone because they had almost nothing in common. All of the MMO's I played pre-WoW were original, aside from the basics of exp and item gathering.

Development studios these days look at WoW's millions of subscribers and hope to achieve similar success by recycling the same gameplay with a new skin and story, hence the term "WoW clone". They lack innovation and, unless you're a fan of the material, offer little value over what is already on the market. Most of them actually fail after a short time and consolidate servers or disappear altogether. It's a valid term, in my opinion, used to describe to a extreme casual MMO with as many ideas borrowed from WoW as possible to maximize profit and minimize development time. When I played FFXI, I certainly didn't say "this feels like EQ", which isn't true of the other games you mentioned in comparison to WoW

That said, it's probably not fair to label FFXIV as a 'WoW clone'. I have a feeling it's going to be original enough to not fall into that category, though the term is generally applied loosely to any MMO meant to cater to a casual audience. It's a hybrid of sorts between FFXI and WoW, and its proximity to the WoW side will determine my level of disappointment when I log in for the first time.


Edited, May 3rd 2010 4:24pm by Calispel
#46 May 03 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Calispel wrote:
Development studios these days look at WoW's millions of subscribers and hope to achieve similar success by recycling the same gameplay with a new skin and story, hence the term "WoW clone".

And that's a totally inaccurate assessment.

Let's look at Lotro and Warhammer, since these two were some of the earliest alleged clones and ones which I am familair with having played them. Neither of them are clones.

None of the classes have counterparts in any of the games, beyond the general tropes found in all MORPGs. A Lotro Burglar is nothing like a WoW rogue, it's actually a lot more comparable to FFXI's thief because both classes are built around using their allies to fulfill their party role and neither does considerable direct damage. A Lotro hunter isn't at all like a WoW hunter; it doesn't even have a pet. The WAR white lion class is a melee pet class (which doesn't exists in either WoW or Lotro) and has more similarities with FFXI's beast and a class in EQ than anyhting in the supposed clone games.

What exactly is similar about Lotro's story to that of WoW beyond that of any western fantasy story? I'd really love to see you demonstrate this.

You're trying to simplify it down to all clones, but that argument falls flat out its face the second you try to point out any specific instances of cloning.
#47 May 03 2010 at 8:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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They Played EXACTLY the **** same way.... Your grasping at straws here trying to compare classes.. The flow of the games are identical.. Warhammer and Conan ARE straight up the same games as far as how they play...

Go to dude with yellow exclamation point get quest, don't read quest, look at map and it shows where to go, kill 5 wild boars come back to quest giver, select reward then get xp and gold. Movement is the same. Mounts are pretty much identical... The world looks the same. Hud elements look the same... THE TALENT TREES LOOK THE SAME.... The class system is the same... They even charge gold for respecs the same exact **** way...

Sure my BEAR SHAMAN didn't feel like a DRUID when I played but neither did my disciple of Kain. But it was the same exact crap outside of the small details you mentioned. Easily overlooked IMO since the games were blatent rip offs in every other aspect possible. They offered very little new outside of the new classes. Honestly I loved playing as disciple of kain because it was a very interesting class but the game just sucked ***.... Bear shaman was cool too for the same reasons, but holy crap that game was awful too...

And no, yellow exclamation points to mark a quest giver is not a **** staple to modern gaming... It works for blizzard.. AT LEAST USE A NEW SYMBOL OR COME UP WITH SOMETHING BETTER!!! Gah...

/rant

Edited, May 3rd 2010 10:27pm by thorazinekizzez
#48 May 03 2010 at 9:40 PM Rating: Default
thorazinekizzez wrote:
Go to dude with yellow exclamation point get quest, don't read quest, look at map and it shows where to go, kill 5 wild boars come back to quest giver, select reward then get xp and gold. Movement is the same. Mounts are pretty much identical... The world looks the same. Hud elements look the same... THE TALENT TREES LOOK THE SAME.... The class system is the same... They even charge gold for respecs the same exact **** way...


Which would all be better or worse than...

Talk to NPC. Maybe they have a quest, maybe they don't. If they do, read quest description. Find out that it tells you next to nothing. Ignore quest for the time being. Sit around waiting for a group (or take the initiative and form your own). Go where everyone else goes. Kill hundreds of crabs/goblins/colibri. Use action bars that aren't quite action bars to activate abilities, or select them from scrolling menus. Leave party. Look up quest online. If it requires a group, ask around for someone to do it with you. Repeat for hours/days/weeks/months until you finally get a group to do it. If it doesn't require a group, get on chocobo/airship. Run for a while. Maybe sneak/invis. Run a bit more. Talk to NPC or tab around for invisible interface node. Return home. Talk to NPC quest giver. Gawk in disappointment at the trivial reward. Repeat.

Ya, I'll take the first option.
#49 May 04 2010 at 3:16 AM Rating: Default
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thorazinekizzez wrote:
Go to dude with yellow exclamation point get quest, don't read quest, look at map and it shows where to go, kill 5 wild boars come back to quest giver, select reward then get xp and gold. Movement is the same. Mounts are pretty much identical... The world looks the same. Hud elements look the same... THE TALENT TREES LOOK THE SAME.... The class system is the same... They even charge gold for respecs the same exact **** way...


Aside from marking questgivers, none of the things you've mentioned are uniquely attributable to WoW. I could buy the whole "WoW clone" hypothesis if I knew nothing of other games; unfortunately for you, I do. Of the 3 other MMOs I've played in my life (DAoC, RO, FFXI), I can easily pick out which games shared which elements, with WoW and with each other. What Blizzard essentially did was take all the things that worked in other MMOs and improved upon them while making their own game, so if anything, WoW is an amalgamation of other games. The only thing they did that I'd consider unique at the time was toning down the excessiveness of the grind, which was a welcome change from games where you'd take months or even years to actually get somewhere.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#50 May 04 2010 at 3:30 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
"WoW clone" is as tired a comment as it is flawed.


how very true.

i wasn't making an elitist, or age-ist remark earlier, i was pointing out the absurd, ego-centric naiveté of sticking a "WoW clone" label on anything.
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#51 May 04 2010 at 5:40 AM Rating: Default
Bluefirefly wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Bluefirefly wrote:
Why don't you just keep playing WoW (since it;s so superior) so they can have a different gaming option...?


WoW has great gameplay, but the setting is kinda bleh. On the flipside, FFXI has a great setting, but the gameplay is sh*t. It's like WoW has chocolate, FFXI has peanut butter, but both are covered in sh*t. Get rid of the sh*t and combine the chocolate and peanut butter already! Make the perfect game!


But that's exactly what I'm trying to differentiate between. Certain people like the gameplay of FFXI as well. A pretty game is not enough to keep many players around for long, especially not the 8-year veterans of FFXI. It's a matter of opinion on whether combining what you consider the better aspects of WoW and better aspects of FFXI would make the perfect game. I'm sure Blizzard will make a new version of WoW soon enough that has a better setting if that's really all you guys are looking for. It's kind of silly, in my opinion, to expect the exact same game but more aesthetically pleasing out of FFXIV. A lot of people do not want to see the "WoW clone with better graphics/scenery/character choices" out of FFXIV (to further the argument of my above post).
I've cited several EQ2 ways of doing things here on this board and I have absolutely no plan on going back to that game, nor do I want to see FFXIV just be an EQ2 clone.. Just because someone says they like a certain aspect of WoW, doesn't mean they want FFXIV to be an EQ2 clone. Most people aren't even saying 'OMGZ FFXIV needz to implement [insert subject here] just like WoW did!!!' They are typically just positing how it worked in that particular game.

It's called adding to the conversation in a constructive way. They will throw something out there, and typically, three or four people will say what they like about it or what they don't like about, or give a modified version of it.

One could ask, fairly, if you like FFXI so much, why don't you keep playing it?
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