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#102 May 06 2010 at 11:48 PM Rating: Good
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so how about that death penalty topic eh?

As far as I know, if they just make res sickness alone then raise spells might lose a bit of luster.. Or for that matter, instead of raise I think it would become more important to have a cleanse sickness spell of some sort. since people will typically home point and take the sickness asap by default habit.. I wonder if that would end up being the important spell to have..

Edited, May 7th 2010 1:52am by thorazinekizzez
#103 May 07 2010 at 12:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Death penalties are difficult. The goal is to provide danger with irritating or frustrating the player.

I think part of the approach might be to delay the punishment. I think any type of raise sickness is a bad idea for several reasons. If the encounter is difficult, then all it becomes a timeout. If you couldn't win a boss fight before, how are you going to win it now with a penalty to your stats? If the encounter is not difficult, then it becomes somewhat trivial. The immediacy of the effect is kind of kicking the player while they're down and it prevents them from doing what they want to do at the moment.

Delayed systems, be they armor repairs, exp loss, exp debt, or something else provide a real cost without stopping the player from what they are attempting to do.

I still don't think any death penalty I've seen has been something I'd praise. Strangely though I often found deleveling in FFXI to be quite hilarious. It was a rare enough occurrence for me that I was able to find humor in the game giving me an extra jab below the belt. I'm sure that experience wouldn't scale up too well.
#104 May 07 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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So you're for zombie tactics then Allegory?
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#105 May 07 2010 at 12:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I always felt it was kind of pointless to make someone wait 5 minutes to make up the XP they just lost. I can see one or the other, but both is kinda being kicked while you're down.

Take the XP, make me go home, make me come back to my corpse, or make me wait 5 minutes to 'think about what i've done'....but adding multiple penalties together kinda sucks.
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#106 May 07 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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The only area of discussion on this topic outside of personal preference is how it functions as a way to discourage or severely restrict zombie tactics. As long as it serves that function adequately, I'm pretty open-minded. Granted, very few games accomplish that in a way that can't be subverted.

But there is one thing I think tends to go unexplored in these sorts of discussions, and that's making sure the penalty affects all classes equally. I'm looking at you incredibly overpowered healing spells in XI.



Edited, May 7th 2010 3:36am by Zemzelette
#107 May 07 2010 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
Zemzelette wrote:
The only area of discussion on this topic outside of personal preference is how it functions as a way to discourage or severely restrict zombie tactics. As long as it serves that function adequately, I'm pretty open-minded. Granted, very few games accomplish that in a way that can't be subverted.

But there is one thing I think tends to go unexplored in these sorts of discussions, and that's making sure the penalty affects all classes equally. I'm looking at you incredibly overpowered healing spells in XI.



Edited, May 7th 2010 3:36am by Zemzelette


Are you kidding me? Regen is a joke, and there are no ward spells that cure when the tank gets hit. FFXI has one of the most active healing jobs. In between keeping the tank alive, you have to haste people, poisona people, and erase people, with no reactive buffs to do the job for you.
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#108 May 07 2010 at 7:30 AM Rating: Decent
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desmar wrote:
Here is the thing, you have to have some sort of penalty or essentially living and dying are nothing more than inconveniences. I remember playing FFXI and the tank dying and man I'll be damned if I didn't see people take off for the zone in locations with every thing they had. Like their lives were truly on the line. In WoW, come on guys just die and wipe it. Your life literally means nothing. Dying shouldn't be a trivial setback, rather it should be something that has a consequence that you will want to go to great lengths to avoid.

I remember making my first treacherous trip to Jeuno from Bastok. I was under leveled, and everything in Rolanberry could've one or two shotted me, but the risk and adrenaline I felt were simply amazing. I never really got any kind of feeling like that exploring in WoW, and I think FF14 could do well bringing fun back into the game.


QFT ~ 100% behind you on this. There has to be a penalty and it has to sting. Any death penalty connected to money is completely stupid. Rich people would just do whatever they please, pay the "fine" and walk away unharmed. Which incidentally is exactly what happens a lot in real life.

Without any risk the rewards are just not as sweet. The feeling of accomplishment i had on beating tough missions, soloing a tough mob or finishing an exapnsion in FFXI has not been matched by any game yet.

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#109 May 07 2010 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
So you're for zombie tactics then Allegory?

When did I say that?
#110 May 07 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Are you kidding me? Regen is a joke, and there are no ward spells that cure when the tank gets hit. FFXI has one of the most active healing jobs. In between keeping the tank alive, you have to haste people, poisona people, and erase people, with no reactive buffs to do the job for you.


Hmm. I think I lost you somewhere.

My statement was meant to go with the rest of my post. Meaning different classes could be raised mid-battle and were able to contribute to different degrees while under the weakness effect. This is speaking from a perspective that is pre-ToAU and career healer.





Edited, May 7th 2010 11:17am by Zemzelette
#111 May 07 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
KindjalFerrer wrote:
QFT ~ 100% behind you on this. There has to be a penalty and it has to sting. Any death penalty connected to money is completely stupid. Rich people would just do whatever they please, pay the "fine" and walk away unharmed. Which incidentally is exactly what happens a lot in real life.

Without any risk the rewards are just not as sweet. The feeling of accomplishment i had on beating tough missions, soloing a tough mob or finishing an exapnsion in FFXI has not been matched by any game yet.


Sounds to me like the FFXIV death penalty will be fairly mild compared to xp loss + weakness + potentially long run if no raise available. I'm sure you realize by now that the xp loss from XI will be replaced by durability loss in XIV.

And I agree...I particularly hate those little glass reincarnation bubbles rich people carry around with them. Bad enough they get to recover from death whenever they want, but those things are always in the way. I still remember the Starbucks Zombie Zerg incident of 2006. Terrible...
#112 May 07 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
So you're for zombie tactics then Allegory?

When did I say that?


Allegory wrote:
I think any type of raise sickness is a bad idea

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#113 May 07 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
RedGalka wrote:
Allegory wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
So you're for zombie tactics then Allegory?

When did I say that?


Allegory wrote:
I think any type of raise sickness is a bad idea



You don't need raise sickness to prevent zombie zerging.
#114 May 07 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
Allegory wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
So you're for zombie tactics then Allegory?

When did I say that?


Allegory wrote:
I think any type of raise sickness is a bad idea



There's ways of combating zerging without resorting to res sickness. Just by making it impossible to use Re/Raise spells and items in combat, you make it impossible for a group to win a fight simply by resurrecting the fallen and whittling away at the boss' health. You could also make it so that Raise (but maybe not Reraise, as it's a self-buff) applies a weakness debuff when used in combat due to the caster being under pressure at the time; essentially, make a combat res imperfect with a debuff, and a non-combat res perfect without a debuff.
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#115 May 07 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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:p there are other ways to prevent zombie tactics than raise sickness.

Such as having restrictions on mid-combat raises, having raise spells with long recast timers, having battles that entail some degree of ground effect which makes immediate raising unfeasible, not offering raise options to being with, Permadeath.

In the grand scheme of things, rez sickness is one of the more forgiving and easily undermined.

Edited, May 7th 2010 12:17pm by Zemzelette
#116 May 07 2010 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:

[quote=Zemzelette]:p there are other ways to prevent zombie tactics than raise sickness.

Such as having restrictions on mid-combat raises, having raise spells with long recast timers, having battles that entail some degree of ground effect which makes immediate raising unfeasible, not offering raise options to being with, Permadeath.

In the grand scheme of things, rez sickness is one of the more forgiving and easily undermined.


It really depends on the potency of the debuff that is with rez sickness... If you lose 75% of all stats from a raise for 30 minutes and this can stack 5 times without a way to cure it you wont be undermining it very much at all.... imagine casting cure 3s at the potency of a cure 1 for triple the cost in mana. At that point raising someone would be worth more mp than what that person can then bring to the table afterward.. Provided the fight isn't longer than 30 minutes I guess...

I think this is more a design thing than inherent problems with the concept of rez sickness.

edit: likewise you could make it so the rez sickness only counts down while you and party members are out of combat. You pretty much said this yourself. I am just saying that its very possible to make rez sickness pretty much impossible to undermine.

Edited, May 7th 2010 1:00pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, May 7th 2010 1:09pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, May 7th 2010 4:01pm by thorazinekizzez

Edited, May 7th 2010 4:22pm by thorazinekizzez
#117 May 07 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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I suppose it's not fair to say less effective than something like ground effects, long recast timers or relocation from the battle as that all exists on a sliding scale and it's entirely possible to devise hypothetical to the contrary.

I suppose it's more fair to say; anytime I've seen rez sickness implemented it's been of a more easily subverted variety than the more strict options like outright limiting your capacity to raise or the honest-to-goodness deletion of your character.

Edited, May 7th 2010 1:22pm by Zemzelette
#118 May 07 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Sigh, I was asking a question, hence the question mark. If you say you're not for sickness in any form you would either condone zombie tactics or start limiting raising in some way during combat (and we would be moving closer to WoW cloneness yet again).

Quanta wrote:
There's ways of combating zerging without resorting to res sickness...

...You could also make it so that Raise (but maybe not Reraise, as it's a self-buff) applies a weakness debuff when used in combat due to the caster being under pressure at the time; essentially, make a combat res imperfect with a debuff, and a non-combat res perfect without a debuff.


This is a form of raise sickness

thorazinekizzez wrote:
You didn't....
Just don't make eye contact lest you argue with a ****** for 3 pages.... (And apparently his sock puppets too)
Hes actually clueless so just ignore em.


I don't do sock puppets. I never had a problem with being rude or an @sshole if people are being stupid. ***** karma. Not that it was the case here when I addressed Allegory.
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#119 May 07 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Whatever the Death Penalty will be in XIV, I am hoping it is something that is something more than a minor inconvenience. If the risk involved in fighting a tough enemy is only a "time-out" or a small gil fine, then I think it makes getting killed almost meaningless.
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#120 May 07 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
Quanta wrote:
There's ways of combating zerging without resorting to res sickness...

...You could also make it so that Raise (but maybe not Reraise, as it's a self-buff) applies a weakness debuff when used in combat due to the caster being under pressure at the time; essentially, make a combat res imperfect with a debuff, and a non-combat res perfect without a debuff.


This is a form of raise sickness


I know it is. It was an attempt to suggest a way of combating the "kekeke zerg rush" approach to encounters without impacting people while out-of-combat, which is a bigger concern to me. If a wipe is going to occur, I just want it to occur so that my group and I can brush ourselves off and get back to trying again as quickly as possible.

I don't want to wait out an X minute res sickness, as it's basically telling me to stop playing the game until the timer runs out. Any mechanic that encourages you to stop playing even for a little bit should be frowned upon imo.
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#121 May 07 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Default
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RedGalka wrote:

thorazinekizzez wrote:
You didn't....
Just don't make eye contact lest you argue with a ****** for 3 pages.... (And apparently his sock puppets too)
Hes actually clueless so just ignore em.


I don't do sock puppets. I never had a problem with being rude or an @sshole if people are being stupid. ***** karma. Not that it was the case here when I addressed Allegory.


DAMNIT
I was confused for some reason when I read the response, it was misdirected thinking it was another person not you..
That was DUMB of me and I am sorry. You are NOT a ****** and you are not using sock puppets.. Sorry sorry sorry... ><
#122 May 07 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Default
thorazinekizzez wrote:
RedGalka wrote:

thorazinekizzez wrote:
You didn't....
Just don't make eye contact lest you argue with a ****** for 3 pages.... (And apparently his sock puppets too)
Hes actually clueless so just ignore em.


I don't do sock puppets. I never had a problem with being rude or an @sshole if people are being stupid. ***** karma. Not that it was the case here when I addressed Allegory.


DAMNIT
I was confused for some reason when I read the response, it was misdirected thinking it was another person not you..
That was DUMB of me and I am sorry. You are NOT a ****** and you are not using sock puppets.. Sorry sorry sorry... ><


I don't see any sockpuppets in this thread. If you were refering to me, my standard response when someone accuses me of having/using a sockpupet is to PM an admin about it or STFU. If you weren't refering to me, PM an admin about it or STFU. Another win-win. Love that.
#123 May 07 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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That guy right there. :)
Got me so on edge I just went off the handle for no reason haha...

Anyway I know to avoid direct things with him now and ill double check response. Also ill just begin reporting anything he does rather than responding.
#124 May 07 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Default
thorazinekizzez wrote:
That guy right there. :)
Got me so on edge I just went off the handle for no reason haha...

Anyway I know to avoid direct things with him now and ill double check response. Also ill just begin reporting anything he does rather than responding.


You do that, sporty. I reckon it'll just be a matter of time before you're getting the "STFU" treatment from admins and not just me.
#125 May 07 2010 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
Allegory wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
So you're for zombie tactics then Allegory?

When did I say that?

Allegory wrote:
I think any type of raise sickness is a bad idea


I understand that you operating under the assumption that the game will allow in combat resurrecting, but that is a silly assumption to make.

If you disallow in combat resurrecting or severe limit it, then you kill two birds with one stone. You get rid of annoying and pointless waiting periods after death, and you prevent zombie tactics.

Edited, May 7th 2010 4:42pm by Allegory
#126 May 07 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Default
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
If you were refering to me, my standard response when someone accuses me of having/using a sockpupet is to PM an admin about it or STFU.

Don't tell him to PM an admin. Do you want him to find out I'm just your puppet? As if the avatar doesn't make it obvious enough!

Edited, May 7th 2010 4:41pm by Allegory
#127 May 07 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
Allegory wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
If you were refering to me, my standard response when someone accuses me of having/using a sockpupet is to PM an admin about it or STFU.

Don't tell him to PM an admin. Do you want him to find out I'm just your puppet? As if the avatar doesn't make it obvious enough!


I think a sock/main combo with a combined post count of over 25,000 would almost be epic enough to warrant leaving them both alone, but I'd probably be too busy rate camping myself to stir up trouble so we'll just have to keep that our little secret for now...
#128 May 14 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
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You can't do "almost everything" with casual play. You can PUG raids with casual play. You can muddle your way through those same raids in a casual/social guild. You're going to miss out on a very large chunk of content that way, but that doesn't mean you can't raid. See the difference?




Sorry, I had to pipe in on this comment. First off I am against casual focused MMOs because of WoW. You mention missing out on a large chunk of content if you pug? What content would that be exactly? You can pug every Raid up to the current raid because you can get every tier except the current tier by running instances. Which you pug. When I played no one ran Ulduar or Naxx because it was pointless. Blizzard intentionally killed those instances, and I have pugged both of them when I am lucky enough to find a group who cares to even run them. The guilds I run with don't even bother with them neither do most guilds because they are a waste of time with Blizzards current setup.

So what content do hardcore gamers have in WoW? Well, lets see. There is only ToC(when I played), and Onyxia. The rest is irrevelant in part to Blizzards amazing design decisions. Well we can pug Ony np which is 50% of endgame "Hardcore" content. Can we pug ToC? Why yes... yes we can. So what content are you talking about exactly that casuals are missing out on?


Also, I should take this time to remind you that you get to run these 2 very shallow, short "hardcore" raids once a week. Yes you read that right. You have 3 hours of gameplay once a week. Yeah, your all right. This casual gaming idea is a fantastic deal......



I can tell you right now if FFXIV if a solo fest til endgame and then I get 2 instances dungeons that are so uneventful that I can't stand even logging in, and if I can only run those 2 dungeons once a week. I will most definitely not pickup this game.



#129 May 14 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Also, on the topic of death penalty. It should sting. If you like death being meaningless then they should make servers to please both sides of the coin. It is really rediculous that they are leaving a HUGE market untapped without any real reason.

My ideal death penalty would include corpse runs and exp loss or debt. Dying should not be something you do to warp around the map ALA WoW. Death should be something feared. It should create a rush of adrenaline when you die. Not make you numb to dying because it is so meaningless. I would prefer a exp penalty over a waiting "sickness" period simply because playing a game is a lot more fun than waiting for an icon to dissapear. Which is really "really" lame as a death penalty. Oh I died... Ill go get a coke... Oh yeah! That is awesome!

Being down in a dungeon should be scary. It should not become a redundant task that zombie tactics can overcome. It should be an experience. I view dungeons like a scene out of the old Indiana Jones movies. It should feel intense! There should be a lot on the line! Without great loss there is no great gain. If you have no loss and only gain then the game is meaningless. Everyone gains. So everyone wins. No one is a true hero. There is nothing to admire. Everyone is the same, or at least capable of the same. In Everquest there was a plane called the "Plane of Fear". It was found late in the original game. It was hidden in a wall in a zone that noone bothered to explore. Once it was found you had the best players attempting to explore it. Yet not everyone was successful. Sometimes you lost your corpse, but in contrast the guys who came out of the Plane in tact were admired. It was an amazing accomplishment. You had explored this mysterious and frightening realm and actually survived. You had gear that few would even see.


That is the kind of game I want. Unfortunately every single game since Everquest (never played FFXI) has failed at giving me an "Experience" I mean an epic experience. A game with real danger. A game that made me feel like I was literally in another world. No instances, just freedom. The ability to do anything. No restrictions. The world was dangerous and gathering a group of adventurers was definitely a good idea, but it wasn't forced if you played a Necro, Mage or Druid, **** even a Bard and Ranger could solo. Instead everygame since WoW has been instances to death, lacks any real excitement, is all about quit 10 minute "GET ME MY LOOT NOW THEN IM LEAVING YOUR ***" type of experience. It is dull, it is lifeless. There is nothing in these games that shows me any sort of "experience". So if FFXIV decides that this shallow experience is the way it wants to go. Count me out. I am forced to help put a project together that emulates Everquest. Because not one single company has strayed from the WoW like experience in the last what 7 years?
#130 May 14 2010 at 11:07 PM Rating: Decent
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So what content are you talking about exactly that casuals are missing out on?


Hard modes, I'm guessing. Some of the normal mode ICC bosses as well--my guild's 25-man alt runs weren't making it past Putricide with the 10% buff last time I went to one, so I can only imagine what it's like for complete PUGs.

Quote:
Also, I should take this time to remind you that you get to run these 2 very shallow, short "hardcore" raids once a week. Yes you read that right. You have 3 hours of gameplay once a week. Yeah, your all right. This casual gaming idea is a fantastic deal......


ToC Heroic. Within an hour. With a PUG. Most PUGs I or guildies have ever been in find Northrend Beasts challenging, and that's on normal mode with tier 10 pieces; there's no way such groups will ever down Anub'arak in 25-man heroic mode, even in ilvl277 epics.

Quote:
Also, on the topic of death penalty. It should sting. If you like death being meaningless then they should make servers to please both sides of the coin. It is really rediculous that they are leaving a HUGE market untapped without any real reason.


Market research, please.

Quote:
My ideal death penalty would include corpse runs and exp loss or debt. Dying should not be something you do to warp around the map ALA WoW. Death should be something feared. It should create a rush of adrenaline when you die. Not make you numb to dying because it is so meaningless. I would prefer a exp penalty over a waiting "sickness" period simply because playing a game is a lot more fun than waiting for an icon to dissapear. Which is really "really" lame as a death penalty. Oh I died... Ill go get a coke... Oh yeah! That is awesome!


I sort of agree; a weakness penalty is likely to translate directly into time not spent playing, which will probably translate into time spent playing something else eventually. SE should try to avoid design decisions that discourage play. Exp debt is better than exp loss, so if I had to choose, I'd choose debt. As for corpse runs, are you referring to runs to recover your lost gear, or runs to make it back to where you died so you can soften the blow of the death penalty?

Quote:
:words:


You know what? Go play Darkfall. It's inspired by old-school UO, so that's about as hardcore an experience as you can get currently.

Edited, May 15th 2010 1:18am by Quanta
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#131 May 14 2010 at 11:20 PM Rating: Decent
Blackdogs wrote:

Sorry, I had to pipe in on this comment.


Sorry...you lost me when you referenced Onyxia as being "hardcore" content. Please don't try to challenge my statements when you haven't a clue. It won't go well for you.
#132 May 14 2010 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
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What I am failing to understand in this thread is why some people are saying that they prefer a res sickness over losing exp or an exp debt. If you take a step back and look at all three of these options, they all mean the exact same thing, basically: extra time you have to wait to progress your character. The difference, in my opinion, is that exp loss makes you feel like you're actually losing something, even though in all three cases you are losing the same thing: time. If I had to choose between them, I would absolutely go with exp loss or exp debt because for me the illusion is still there and I don't have to stop literally everything I'm doing for fear of continuously dying and therefore having to wait even longer to become unsick. A res sickness is nothing but a time sink that people use as excuses to go afk. I'd also rather lose experience than have no way to raise myself and have to walk all the way back to where ever I died, although I don't know how this works in FFXIV so far.

Only giving a res sickness also makes it far too easy for people to take advantage of the system by using death-warps, dying on purpose so they don't have to put as much effort into partying (I have seen this happen in FFXI when R3 is involved), or making a run through a zone all-out because you really have nothing to lose and can keep raising yourself with RR/whatever else you have available. A simple raise sickness isn't a penalty in many cases, it's a relief. Something needs to actually be taken away, and I don't think it should be tied to money in FFXIV because crafts are now CLASSES and that is completely unfair to players who want to play DoM or DoW instead. Experience is the one base that all classes share equally, and that should be what is affected, through loss or through debt. I think what we can all agree on is that FFXI may have taken the loss a bit too far. With a fair adjustment, I think it is safe to say people won't take advantage of dying in FFXIV but won't throw their keyboard out the window (as often) from losing 10k experience in something similar to Dynamis.
#133 May 15 2010 at 12:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Bluefirefly wrote:
Only giving a res sickness also makes it far too easy for people to take advantage of the system by using death-warps, dying on purpose so they don't have to put as much effort into partying (I have seen this happen in FFXI when R3 is involved), or making a run through a zone all-out because you really have nothing to lose and can keep raising yourself with RR/whatever else you have available.

If people are using death as a way to travel more quickly, then in my opinion developers shouldn't be asking themselves "What's wrong with this death penalty?" but rather "What's wrong with our travel system?"

If I don't want to spend 30 minutes traveling back to my homepoint/rez area then adding an exp penalty isn't going to change that. It's only going to force me to do something I don't want to do, which in my opinion makes the game worse not better.
#134 May 15 2010 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry...you lost me when you referenced Onyxia as being "hardcore" content. Please don't try to challenge my statements when you haven't a clue. It won't go well for you.


My point exactly. The endgame isn't hardcore. When I played and ToC was out there was only ToC and Ony. Neither of which were hardcore. I am glad that you just dissproved your own statement that Casual games like WoW "Leave casuals with a huge chunk of gameplay missed" which if you don't count Ony as hardcore. Leaves one raid that can be puggable. Again your statement was false. Next time think things through.



Also to the guy saying citing hardmodes as some form of hardcore endgame. It isn;t exclusive. My whole point in piping in was to point out the fact that anyone can do any content in WoW. There is no content casuals can't see. The whole game is shallow and easy. I fear the future of MMOs if they follow this model. The other thing is most people lack any motivation to run hard modes. Simply because it isn't worth it with it offering no real advantage. It is just repeating what you already did in the exact same way yet again. Not much content, just a harder way of doing the same content.

Edited, May 15th 2010 3:33am by Blackdogs
#135 May 15 2010 at 4:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Oops finger slipped and rated you down instead of up Blackdogs :T

When I said "almost everything" I was indeed hinting at that you can't really do the latest new raids or a lot of the hardmodes until Blizzard tunes them down, but this really is just a fraction of the game and not the other way around like some people are trying to make you believe.
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#136 May 15 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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As it should be. Why should all of the coolest stuff be for hardcores (I have nothing else to do so I can play 10 hours a day) players only? Blizz makes it so the latest and greatest stuff will be seen by the really good players, but eventually lets everyone in so more than 0.1% of the players will actually get to see all the work they put into the raids. And there's still hardmodes if you want a challenge. Yes, there should be stuff only hardcores can get, but not the majority of the endgame content. This is a game and you shouldn't have to devote your life to it just ot get anywhere.
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#137 May 15 2010 at 8:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Casuals should be able to experience everything, but skilled players should be able to get ahead one way or the other.
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#138 May 15 2010 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Allegory wrote:

If people are using death as a way to travel more quickly, then in my opinion developers shouldn't be asking themselves "What's wrong with this death penalty?" but rather "What's wrong with our travel system?"

If I don't want to spend 30 minutes traveling back to my homepoint/rez area then adding an exp penalty isn't going to change that. It's only going to force me to do something I don't want to do, which in my opinion makes the game worse not better.

I was actually using that as an "instead of" comparison, not to mention it is only one of my points and not one I put too much focus on since everyone is now given teleport and warp in FFXIV. EXP loss and traveling aren't tied together very tightly by any means so there's no point in trying to pick it apart to make an argument against a separate subject.

Besides, I think we both know an MMO can have a perfectly legitimate traveling system and still have people using this as a means to get around because they're lazy and nothing is fast enough for them. Example: AoC. I'd rather stay on the topic of death penalty, though.
#139 May 15 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
Blackdogs wrote:
Quote:
Sorry...you lost me when you referenced Onyxia as being "hardcore" content. Please don't try to challenge my statements when you haven't a clue. It won't go well for you.


My point exactly. The endgame isn't hardcore. When I played and ToC was out there was only ToC and Ony. Neither of which were hardcore. I am glad that you just dissproved your own statement that Casual games like WoW "Leave casuals with a huge chunk of gameplay missed" which if you don't count Ony as hardcore. Leaves one raid that can be puggable. Again your statement was false. Next time think things through.


I'm not talking about your dated concepts of what does or does not entail hardcore. I'm talking about specific numbers involving how many ranked guilds have downed certain encounters. And the players comprising those ranked guilds represent only a small portion of the overall playerbase of the game. When you're talking 50000 or so ranked guilds (not all of which have downed all content by any stretch of the imagination) in a game with over 5 million players in the regions in question, it starts to shed a little light on just how casually accessible raiding really is. But when you don't know what you're talking about and you're not afraid to put your own subjective spin on reality in order to prove your point, it's okay to just barf out all kinds of erroneous "facts" and pretend like you've made a point, isn't it?

Everquest is dead, k? It was a niche game that appealed to a niche market. SE is not focusing their attention on that market this time around. Cry all you want...the hardcore, life sucking grind that was the hallmark of online RPGs 10 years ago does not appeal to enough people to make targeting that niche market a smart business decision.
#140 May 15 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Also to the guy saying citing hardmodes as some form of hardcore endgame. It isn;t exclusive. My whole point in piping in was to point out the fact that anyone can do any content in WoW. There is no content casuals can't see.


It's not exclusive, except for the fact that a casual player who isn't in a raiding guild probably isn't going to see even heroic Marrowgar, let alone heroic Lich King. You can still see Lich King on normal mode though--maybe, eventually--and see the ending for the expansion. I see nothing wrong with that.

Quote:
The whole game is shallow and easy. I fear the future of MMOs if they follow this model.


Oh yeah, I agree. Making your game as accessible as possible to as many people as possible is a poor design decision, not to mention a poor business decision. I know a ton of developers who lament the fact that more people are playing their games and enjoying themselves.

Seriously, are you one of those "special snowflake" types? I just want to know whether to take your opinions seriously or not.

Quote:
The other thing is most people lack any motivation to run hard modes. Simply because it isn't worth it with it offering no real advantage. It is just repeating what you already did in the exact same way yet again.


Right, except for the extra mechanics. And the higher-quality loot. And the achievements. And the drakes. Nope, not motivating factors at all.

Quote:
Not much content, just a harder way of doing the same content.


I've seen more complaints about content not being challenging enough than I have complaints that content is not exclusive enough, probably because the jerks arguing for exclusivity are basement-dwelling tards who need to go outside for a bit. Heroic modes solve the challenge problem by making content, well, challenging. The current model isn't perfect, seeing as you have to complete the normal modes first--by which point, you've gotten most of the fight nailed down and just have to learn the extra mechanics--but with heroic modes being available from the get-go next expansion, it should be easy to determine who just wants to see content, who wants a genuine challenge, and who wanted to be a special snowflake. My expectation is that a lot of the pro-challenge people are actually pro-exclusivity people in disguise.

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#141 May 15 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Also to the guy saying citing hardmodes as some form of hardcore endgame. It isn;t exclusive. My whole point in piping in was to point out the fact that anyone can do any content in WoW. There is no content casuals can't see. The whole game is shallow and easy.


:::cough:::

Isn't it ironic the demographic that's most likely to berate others for wanting to explore less efficient possibilities for reasons like affinity are the first to complain when content becomes widely accessible because they want exclusivity?

Just saying,
"no special little snowflakes"



Edited, May 15th 2010 12:04pm by Zemzelette
#142 May 15 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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It seems like a difficult line to draw between fair/balanced and too harsh.
I think we all agree that there should be some type of a death penalty, but we can't agree on what it should be.

A gil fine is just another reason for gil-sellers to be in game, it makes dying trivial at best for those with gil, and what exactly would happen to your character if don't have any gil when you die?
A sickness/weakness isn't the worst punishment but it screams waste of time. If you combine it with an exp loss then you're getting hit twice as hard. Which seems too harsh in a "casual friendly" experience.
I think (as much as it sucks) exp loss + armor durability loss is the most acceptable route to take. You lose exp as the punishment for dying, and the lasting effect is that your equipment is damaged. You can still go right back to fighting, but you will have a small barrier that prevents you from performing at your full potential. Tweak as need be, does it get worse with each death? Is there a limit to how badly your gear can be damaged? Can a crafter repair the damage in the open world?
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#143 May 15 2010 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
ReiThor wrote:
It seems like a difficult line to draw between fair/balanced and too harsh.
I think we all agree that there should be some type of a death penalty, but we can't agree on what it should be.


My experience is that the people insisting that penalties should be severe and unforgiving just argue from that point of view because they think it makes them badass. It reminds me of that scene in Happy Gilmore where Happy goes to the batting cages and stands there and lets the balls hit him. Tough ol' happy later goes on to get his *** kicked by a 70 year old game show host. Being willing to accept consequences that most people would deem unnecessary or excessive doesn't prove or accomplish anything.

Imagine thsi conversation, if you will:

MadGuy>> I quit! I've had enough of this crap!
OtherGuy>> What's going on?
MadGuy>> This game sucks!
OtherGuy>> What do you mean? You don't like the combat?
MadGuy>> No, no, the combat is fine. I actually really like it.
OtherGuy>> You don't like the scenery?
MadGuy>> No, that's fine too. Actually, it's gorgeous.
OtherGuy>> You think the story is lame?
MadGuy>> No way! The story is awesome! It's one of the best parts of the game!
OtherGuy>> Economy issues?
MadGuy>> Nope.
OtherGuy>> So if you like the combat, you like the look of the game, and you like the story, and the economy is fine, what's so bad about it that you suddenly want to quit?
MadGuy>> There's not enough of a penalty when you die.

Riiiight.
#144 May 15 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My experience is that the people insisting that penalties should be severe and unforgiving just argue from that point of view because they think it makes them badass.



You haven't read anything anyone has typed then. Your assumptions of partially false. On one hand yes being the guy who survived or who is surviving a harsh and unforgiving world is a reward. Just like succeeding in a harsh and unforgiving life and making it to the top is rewarding. Yes it gives you a feeling of being badass. The main feeling though is the adrenaline, excitement, and intensity of having a lot to lose. War wouldn't be War if you just respawned in real life. It is this feature alone that makes war so intense. When someone survived the war and lived to tell about it they were rewarded and honored. It is a stance of respect and admiration for someone who survived against all odds. If all war heroes respawned and they all were heroes then we have no war heroes. It gives the world a personality. Without MBA all stars there would be little motivation for the little guy. You need things that are accessable only to the best of the best, Exclusively. I know you all wanna be MBA allstars without even trying, but some people are just a different breed I guess.



Also, guys my whole point in my last post was to respond to "The one and Only" who had said casuals missed out on a large chunk in WoW and was praising it like it was the holy grail of MMO design. I was just pointing out that casuals miss out on nothing.

As for the guys who stated that design decisions to make a game that revolves around 2 hours of gameplay a week? Meaning you run 1 raid and then down a simple boss and that is all you have to an entire week. Then next week you get to do the same exact thing with no difference at all because the whole game is instanced and nothing could possibly be different. Look if you like paying for a game so you can play it 8 hours a month. Then hats off to you sir, but I gotta say your a moron if you like this approach.


Oh and yeah Hardmodes don't add anything new (barely) except for Ulduar. Hardmodes only add maybe one new factor "sometimes" it is mainly more damage and health. Its like saying run in a straight line! Now run in a straight line with weights on your feet! Now do this again next week because your time is up! Hurray!


No, I want a game that can take a solid month to explore one whole dungeon like everquest. I want an experience not a treadmill. I like to see "new" things. I like to have a part of the world remain mysterious and difficult. Im not a 5 year old in a store demanding everything be given too me. I sware this demanding instant gratification nonsense ****** me off, I want a "GAME" not a hand me out. The only people I can see expecting handmeouts are the basement dwelling nerds. The people who actually enjoy a challenge often enjoy the challenge because they challenge themselves in there daily lives. Too bad your most likely a bunch of poor SOBs pretending to be elite on a forum who have no clue about challenge.


Also what you all call a "grind" I call "gameplay". Yeah thats right. Playing the game is gameplay. I know its a shock, but it is. You hate attacking monsters without seeing your number rise? Then your an idiot and your playing the game for the wrong reasons. What kind of person wants to see his number get high rather than enjoying a fun game that can last forever? Why not let endgame start from the beginning? Why not always have something to do or look forward too? If you hate having to see a yellow bar go up, then look at yourself in the mirror and punch yourself for playing an RPG. ITS A RPG.




#145 May 15 2010 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
Blackdogs wrote:
Quote:
My experience is that the people insisting that penalties should be severe and unforgiving just argue from that point of view because they think it makes them badass.



You haven't read anything anyone has typed then.


I read it all. I'm a business owner. I'm also preparing to launch an alternative business venture, the success or failure of which will actually mean something. I don't need to seek "risk" in a video game. I don't play video games as a substitute for success despite risk in the real world. And I really don't have time to spend my recreation time boring myself to tears grinding repetitive content for years seeking the puny carrot on the mile long stick. I also don't really have time to spend hours recovering from the penalties associated with failure, particularly when that failure can come as a result of something so simple (and unavoidable) as a lag spike or a party member's disconnect. I played through the grindfest that was FFXI at a time when I didn't have a whole lot else going on in my life. I've since matured a bit and no longer have the interest or inclination to subject myself to that in the name of "entertainment". I can assure you, I have a lot more respect for someone who has the balls to stick their neck out in the real world and try to accompllish something that can have a substantial impact on their quality of life than I do for someone who thinks their masochistic urges with regards to their recreation pursuits in any way elevates them above anyone else when it comes to personal character.

If you think your accomplishments in a video game in any way reflect on you as a person, you're a fool. Grow a pair and step out into the real world where your successes and failures can actually impact your quality of life and the lives of the people around you. You'll learn the difference.

Quote:
Also, guys my whole point in my last post was to respond to "The one and Only" who had said casuals missed out on a large chunk in WoW and was praising it like it was the holy grail of MMO design. I was just pointing out that casuals miss out on nothing.


I never praised it as the holy grail of anything. Don't be an ***.
#146 May 15 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Without MBA all stars there would be little motivation for the little guy. You need things that are accessable only to the best of the best, Exclusively. I know you all wanna be MBA allstars without even trying, but some people are just a different breed I guess.


Developers are not there to judge, they're there to entertain. Which is why they genuinely recognize and develop for playertypes that are interested in schadenfreude, those who like the misfortune of others and enjoy feeling superior. In Bartle's system they're called Killers, in Bateman's system they're called Monsters, in Yee's system it's called Grief. We more easily relate these types to PvP, but they exsist in PvE structures. Their desires are considered valid, immoral as they may be, and are planned to be satisfied by developers.

B~u~t.
They are an extreme minority. A percentage of a percentage of a percent. (and they wouldn't want it any other way, as rarity is part and parcel to the allure of their position). There is point where pleasing them as a customer is good business, and point where it's bad business. Exclusivity is bad business.

The MBA metaphor is simply incorrect. All Players do not feel motivated by the existence of exclusivity. Players have a variety of types, and the motivations of these other player types are utterly alien and exotically different from your singular perspective. I know this seems obvious, but, people are different. There is only one type of player who is served by by exclusivity, and that's yours.

On top of that, developers do not want to spend the untold capital and manhours it takes to create AAA quality work just to satisfy a small percentage of their playerbase and enrage the rest. That's why the hardcore carrots you see today are things that are cheap to produce ; little token prizes that essentially amount to a texture swap. To do otherwise is, quite frankly, a waste of perfectly good money.

Congratulations, MMOs are popular now. That means we have big businesses interested in investing alot of money to make these games look great, continue to evolve, and are serviced well. But with those lots of lots of people to help pay the bills, comes lots of lots of different interests. Time to learn to share. <3



Edited, May 15th 2010 4:56pm by Zemzelette
#147 May 15 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Don't be an ***.


LOL I would almost put this quote in my siggy!
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#148 May 16 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:

B~u~t.
They are an extreme minority. A percentage of a percentage of a percent. (and they wouldn't want it any other way, as rarity is part and parcel to the allure of their position). There is point where pleasing them as a customer is good business, and point where it's bad business. Exclusivity is bad business. <snips>

Congratulations, MMOs are popular now. That means we have big businesses interested in investing alot of money to make these games look great, continue to evolve, and are serviced well. But with those lots of lots of people to help pay the bills, comes lots of lots of different interests. Time to learn to share. <3


I'm really shocked to see SO many people arguing on behalf of businesses and money, as if they don't have enough people on their side already telling everyone how to run the world despite how wrong they always seem to be. Going by these arguments, I guess that means you all think SE should start targeting girls between the ages of 9-15 (something like that) because everyone knows young teenagers are the ones that they are going to get the most money from just like in every other category of sales. Why don't we just put Taylor Swift and Hannah Montana in FFXIV, you know, since it would be "good for business." Or why not make the gameplay just like Halo and CoD, since it would probably be "good for business." (bad examples, but I hope you get my point) Why don't you guys try offering up arguments that are actually going to better the game instead of make SE money because that should really be the last thing on our minds when it comes to making suggestions for a videogame.

And I completely agree with the above comment that if people are paying monthly so they can play a game 4-8 hours a week, they better be well-off or else they are just retarded. MMO's being popular or not, they should still target the group of people that are actually gong to PLAY them seeing as it is THOSE people who will be spending their time either enjoying it or hating it and quitting eventually. MMO's are NOT made for someone who is working two jobs, has a wife/husband and 5 kids, is in debt thanks to credit cards, can't figure out how to use a simple UI, and are against a death penalty. MMO's are not made for people who simply do not have time to devote to them and they shouldn't be watered down to accommodate those said people (and I am NOT implying any MMO out there is or isn't watered down, but they will be if we keep thinking like this). I have seen way too many posts saying "I'm afraid I'll get addicted again" "I'm afraid my girlfriend will break up with me once FFXIV comes out" "I'm worried about how much the game will cost" "I don't have enough money to upgrade my computer/buy a PS3." It's scary to think people have THAT much trouble getting their priorities in order. I, for one, don't want a game catering to people who probably shouldn't be allowed to play in the first place.
#149 May 16 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
Bluefirefly wrote:
I'm really shocked to see SO many people arguing on behalf of businesses and money, as if they don't have enough people on their side already telling everyone how to run the world despite how wrong they always seem to be.


Wada made it pretty clear what his priorities are. I don't necessarily agree with that approach, but there has been plenty of other explicit information released by the devs that indicate they aren't aiming for the same niche FFXI appealled to.

Quote:
And I completely agree with the above comment that if people are paying monthly so they can play a game 4-8 hours a week, they better be well-off or else they are just retarded.


Compared to what? People who go to a movie once/month? People who dine out once/month? I dunno...$15 for 4-8 hours of entertainment is pretty cheap these days...
#150 May 16 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Your devotion to the ideals of yesteryear warms my old heart.

You don't think I sometimes prefer the way things used to be to the way things have become? I did just lament in another thread about how we would have never thought to do this gearscore nonsense if the market hadn't been casualized. I remarked how cold and paranoid communities seem nowadays. I have my moments of nostalgia too.

But how I feel about these things as a person, can be completely detached from an analysis of the industry.

Like or hate it, it is what it is. By all means do your civic duty as a player and create feedback about your feelings. But Squeenix has been pretty clear about their demographic target, and all that we've seen of their game design decisions thus far consistently reinforces it. For what it's worth making sure someone 'with alot of time on their hands' was sufficiently entertained was one of their design goals. It's just that this doesn't necessarily correlate to spending oodles of cash on exclusive content.

You know, should you ever feel like you just want to travel back in time for a while, there's always the MUD community. Because they are text-based and cost nothing to produce, people get really inventive with them sometimes, and there are still some fairly active games out there.




Edited, May 16th 2010 8:45pm by Zemzelette
#151 May 16 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Default
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Edit: moved content.

Edited, May 16th 2010 10:30pm by Eske
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