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Crafting mini-gameFollow

#1 May 07 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
Of course, all systems being subject to change, I'm wondering what folks think about the crafting system in FFXIV...most notably the mini-game that has replaced the XI standard of "select crystal -> select components -> pray." It looks like SE has done a fairly reaosnable job of putting success/failure in the hands of the players this time around as opposed to simply basing it around current skill level + RNG.

Based on the profession(s) I'm most interested in, it looks like it could be fun. I'm a bit curious to see how SE is going to manage the system for consumables that are frequently crafted in large numbers, but for low volume crafting I could get used to a more interactive approach to the whole process.

Thoughts?
#2 May 07 2010 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I think it'll largely depend on the results yielded. If the mini-game gives decent yields for the amount of time invested in it, I think it'll work well. For example, I found the fishing mini-game in FFXI to be fun, except that, if I'm remembering it correctly, it could be agonizingly slow to get X stacks of a particular fish due to the fact that you had to weaken and catch each fish individually, though maybe there were some points where you could catch multiples of the same fish; I can't recall. Maybe it was lure-dependent.

I just don't want to play the mini-game at all for gathering professions if the result is going to be one of a particular item each try; I'd rather just be able to farm my items and then focus on a tradeskill mini-game that I'll enjoy, like smithing.
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#3 May 07 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Default
Quanta wrote:
I think it'll largely depend on the results yielded. If the mini-game gives decent yields for the amount of time invested in it, I think it'll work well. For example, I found the fishing mini-game in FFXI to be fun, except that, if I'm remembering it correctly, it could be agonizingly slow to get X stacks of a particular fish due to the fact that you had to weaken and catch each fish individually, though maybe there were some points where you could catch multiples of the same fish; I can't recall. Maybe it was lure-dependent.

I just don't want to play the mini-game at all for gathering professions if the result is going to be one of a particular item each try; I'd rather just be able to farm my items and then focus on a tradeskill mini-game that I'll enjoy, like smithing.


It looks like one of the commands you can execute while crafting can finish the synthesis very quickly but with a heavy durability penalty (which appears to be at least partially randomized) meaning greater chances of failure. It's way too early to tell if the durability while crafting will carry over to the finished product, but if it does I would say that it would be a very nice touch and add a scale to the "NQ/HQ" system. In the case of things like food, I could see it being a function where you can (hopefully) crank out large volume of normal food but if you wanted higher quality snacks, it would take longer.

Folks have brought up how much they'd like to see a crafting mini-game in the past and my only reservation about the system is the one around being able to produce the things you need without having to take all day to do it. What I'm liking so far (in general, not just related to crafting) is that SE is building a lot of systems into the game that can create a very substantial amount of diversity later on as the game evolves (depending on how they make use of said systems, of course).
#4 May 07 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I personally do not want crafting to be some mini game. There are too many things that can go really wrong with a system like that. Lag for instance, What happens if I get a lag spike or lag out while playing a mini game? Do I lose my super mega-rare crafting mat that I had to kill a boss to get, then beat out 20 other people all rolling on the loot? Nor would I want to have to play the same mini game hundreds of times while crafting stacks of food, cloth, sheets of metal, metal rings, metal bars, metal imaginary objects that are all components of the true final product, Sure it would be a novel idea when you first think about it, but after you play it a few dozen times it would become a annoyance and put a lot of people off from crafting.

In XI I got my CC to 99 and had everything else maxed as much as I could. Heck I even maxed out chocobo digging before it was made easy. Crafting to me is something I do when I don't have a lot of time to invest, or I am somewhat distracted. Im sure many people will disagree with me, but to each their own.

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#5 May 07 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
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I like it.
It's paints a very consistent design philosophy in regards to crafting/gathering being full fledged classes.

Most of my concerns that remain are the kind of stuff that can't really be seen until release or later.
Such as keeping armor and weapon related classes relevant in spite of dungeon drops, making sure the financially viable recipes are diverse, and making sure whatever the position the crafter/gatherer has in the endgame structure they're still able to have a good storyline experience.

It really is weird to see somebody other than SOE display crafting competency.
#6 May 07 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
Mistre wrote:
I personally do not want crafting to be some mini game. There are too many things that can go really wrong with a system like that. Lag for instance, What happens if I get a lag spike or lag out while playing a mini game? Do I lose my super mega-rare crafting mat that I had to kill a boss to get, then beat out 20 other people all rolling on the loot? Nor would I want to have to play the same mini game hundreds of times while crafting stacks of food, cloth, sheets of metal, metal rings, metal bars, metal imaginary objects that are all components of the true final product, Sure it would be a novel idea when you first think about it, but after you play it a few dozen times it would become a annoyance and put a lot of people off from crafting.

In XI I got my CC to 99 and had everything else maxed as much as I could. Heck I even maxed out chocobo digging before it was made easy. Crafting to me is something I do when I don't have a lot of time to invest, or I am somewhat distracted. Im sure many people will disagree with me, but to each their own.



I need a non-offensive, funny little image that I can start inserting into posts when people talk about how they don't want things that are already confirmed to be in the game.

The crafting system as it currently stands will not be influenced by lag. It may or may not be influenced by a disconnect, but it's not a twitchy "must press button now or fail!" system. I don't know if the information I saw qualifies as an alpha leak. It's being discussed in other forums that have a vested interest in preserving reasonable ties with SE, so I'll PM an admin and see where it stands for just how much I can post about the system in the hopes of preventing this thread from derailing into speculative likes/dislikes. That's not what I started it for...it's more to discuss what is already in the game.
#7 May 07 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Default
Zemzelette wrote:

I like it.
It's paints a very consistent design philosophy in regards to crafting/gathering being full fledged classes.

Most of my concerns that remain are the kind of stuff that can't really be seen until release or later.
Such as keeping armor and weapon related classes relevant in spite of dungeon drops, making sure the financially viable recipes are diverse, and making sure whatever the position the crafter/gatherer has in the endgame structure they're still able to have a good storyline experience.

It really is weird to see somebody other than SOE display crafting competency.


To be honest, I'd be fine with a lot of crafting skills later in the game being focused around repairs and consumables. I'm not opposed in any way to having crafters able to make some really nice gear, but I think that when it comes down to long-term benefit from a crafting discipline, having a persistent need for your skills is better than trying to churn out HQ gear for mega profit.
#8 May 07 2010 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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As much as I like the idea of inherent repeat business, I always worry when somebody's upper echelon experience is of the one-trick pony variety. If we really are taking crafting to be a means and not an ends, I think variety is key.
#9 May 07 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
To be honest, I'd be fine with a lot of crafting skills later in the game being focused around repairs and consumables. I'm not opposed in any way to having crafters able to make some really nice gear, but I think that when it comes down to long-term benefit from a crafting discipline, having a persistent need for your skills is better than trying to churn out HQ gear for mega profit.


Perhaps the ability to craft competitive gear could be a reason to bring a smith or tailor to a raid, so that they can obtain the recipe. Or perhaps one of the requirements to crafting such items would be that you first have to craft it in a special place (like the fiery maw of the red dragon the group just defeated) before you can craft it normally elsewhere.
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Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#10 May 07 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
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(>...>lll

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

Edited, May 7th 2010 1:24pm by Humster

Edited, May 7th 2010 1:25pm by Humster
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#11 May 07 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I like that SE is giving crafting more focus. I like that it's not just something to do on the side while you wait for a party.

I've been seeing people speculate about the combat abilities the crafting classes may or may not have, and I'm hoping they get very few. The crafting mini-games hopefully will be fun and clever enough so that players will want to main crafters and not be concerned if their class has little to no combat ability.
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#12 May 07 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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I think it looks pretty ingenious. The developers have taken an area of gameplay that they know players enjoy - battle - and tried to apply it to an area that's traditionally a bit dull. Crafting items now is basically a battle that requires you to strategically respond to events that will determine your success, failure, and possibly other special attributes. All we've seen so far are the basic crafting abilities, but each class will unlock new ones as they level, just like a combat job. They could add all kinds of depth to this foundation.
#13 May 07 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Mistre wrote:
I personally do not want crafting to be some mini game. There are too many things that can go really wrong with a system like that. Lag for instance, What happens if I get a lag spike or lag out while playing a mini game? Do I lose my super mega-rare crafting mat that I had to kill a boss to get, then beat out 20 other people all rolling on the loot? Nor would I want to have to play the same mini game hundreds of times while crafting stacks of food, cloth, sheets of metal, metal rings, metal bars, metal imaginary objects that are all components of the true final product, Sure it would be a novel idea when you first think about it, but after you play it a few dozen times it would become a annoyance and put a lot of people off from crafting.

In XI I got my CC to 99 and had everything else maxed as much as I could. Heck I even maxed out chocobo digging before it was made easy. Crafting to me is something I do when I don't have a lot of time to invest, or I am somewhat distracted. Im sure many people will disagree with me, but to each their own.



I need a non-offensive, funny little image that I can start inserting into posts when people talk about how they don't want things that are already confirmed to be in the game.

The crafting system as it currently stands will not be influenced by lag. It may or may not be influenced by a disconnect, but it's not a twitchy "must press button now or fail!" system. I don't know if the information I saw qualifies as an alpha leak. It's being discussed in other forums that have a vested interest in preserving reasonable ties with SE, so I'll PM an admin and see where it stands for just how much I can post about the system in the hopes of preventing this thread from derailing into speculative likes/dislikes. That's not what I started it for...it's more to discuss what is already in the game.


I'm not sure if you can talk about it or not, but I'm curious, is it just one mini-game/system for crafts in general or are there differences/different mini-games depending on what craft you are working with?

I am all for a mini-game system for crafts. I've never really been the one to craft much(in any game), but so far there is not really any of the combat oriented classes in XIV that has caught my eye and thus I am getting more and more interested in how these craft classes will work.

If the mini-game system is well developed/varied I can definitely see myself trying out Weaver as a fulltime "main", which is very different from anything I've done before and the idea is quickly growing on me. Seeing confirmation of mini-games for crafting classes(i.e taking a first step towards making it a possible "real" class) just makes me more excited and convinced that this might be for me.

I do hope crafters have a role in endgame "raids" as well, I might not have to add much to the fight itself, but I want to be able to participate somehow and not feel "shut out". I am sure the craft mini-games(which I hope develop and become more advanced as your skills grow) will be fun, but I don't want to sit in town, staring at a wall, waiting for my "LS raid" to come home with great stories and a recipe and tell me to make something for them. I want to take part in the action somehow.

Maybe, during the fight, for me to be able to craft something I have my own "crafting-battle-mini-game" where I have to be where the fighting is, like do my own thing to the monster to be able to gather the items required when the beast is dead. Like have the fighters fight the mob and keep it busy while "crafters" run in at certain times to do a ritual or w/e to get a special item that won't drop off the beast. That way I would need fighters there to kill the monster(and we of course get drops too), and they need me there to get the craft items needed to make some other special armor/weapon etc.
#14 May 07 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Default
Belcrono wrote:
I'm not sure if you can talk about it or not, but I'm curious, is it just one mini-game/system for crafts in general or are there differences/different mini-games depending on what craft you are working with?


The only information out at this time is for blacksmithing. I wouldn't expect the system to be much (if at all) different for other DoH. While they may add additional options as you progress your Class Rank as a DoH, I really don't expect to see the crafting system as something that most people would want to do in place of a combat-oriented main. It's way beyond the FFXI system in terms of interaction and diversity, but that's not saying much.

I think that when SE said that you'd bring DoH to your combat groups, it would be as almost a sub-job kind of thing. I could see some crafting guildleves benefiting from bringing a party to help you clear some nasties from around a resource node, but in terms of actually taking part in fights, I wouldn't count on it. You're not going to have weavers hopping around dragons trying to sew them to the ground or tanners trying to sneak up to the dragon while the fight is in progress to yoink a scale from it. I think it will be more a case of...for example...groups welcoming the idea of a Conjurer with the ability to repair cloth armor or another combat class that can repair metal armor as a "just in case" measure. I could see something implemented where, upon killing the giant evil dragon guy thing, its corpse turns into a resource node from which only tanners could extract crafting materials, or the giant evil rock monster with a moogle-hide loincloth turns into a pile of rubble upon death that someone could mine from. But in terms of actually having people in a group walking around with their crafting tools equipped for the duration of the fight, I'm not sure SE could implement that in a way that would be both entertaining for the crafter and not fundamentally ridiculous to the casual observer.
#15 May 07 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
But in terms of actually having people in a group walking around with their crafting tools equipped for the duration of the fight, I'm not sure SE could implement that in a way that would be both entertaining for the crafter and not fundamentally ridiculous to the casual observer.


I think crafters could fit well in a support role when it comes to combat; they don't really deal much damage, but they provide buffs and debuffs that allow the combat-oriented classes to perform better. Imagine a Blacksmith being able to buff his party's weapons or apply an armor debuff to a mob due to the knowledge his trade provides him. They could come up with similar uses for the others, I'm sure.

Edit: That seems to be the plan, actually. At least for Blacksmiths:

Quote:
Blacksmithing techniques are capable of weakening enemies constructed of metal, as well as discovering loot that would otherwise be overlooked by the untrained eye.

Blacksmiths provide an edge to themselves and others by ensuring that weapons are always kept in optimal condition.


They'll certainly allow other classes to equip Blacksmith skills, no doubt, but I would imagine that some skills will probably be exclusive to the class, so that there's reason to bring them along when killing internet dragons.

Edited, May 7th 2010 3:15pm by Quanta
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Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#16 May 07 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
Quanta wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
But in terms of actually having people in a group walking around with their crafting tools equipped for the duration of the fight, I'm not sure SE could implement that in a way that would be both entertaining for the crafter and not fundamentally ridiculous to the casual observer.


I think crafters could fit well in a support role when it comes to combat; they don't really deal much damage, but they provide buffs and debuffs that allow the combat-oriented classes to perform better. Imagine a Blacksmith being able to buff his party's weapons or apply an armor debuff to a mob due to the knowledge his trade provides him. They could come up with similar uses for the others, I'm sure.


More likely than having people running around with their crafting tools in hand, if there was a class skill that allowed you debuff armor that just happened to be learned at a certain rank of Blacksmith, you'd equip that on a combat oriented class. I'm beyond this speculative silliness now. DoH aren't going to be buffing classes in combat. They're going to have their own little niche as crafters and may benefit from things that you find in the field that you'll either need an escort to get and/or would head out as a combat class to get to and then switch when the fighting is done, but you're not going to have a battery of DoH standing by in big fights to do ridiculous little things. You're not going to have people standing around in fights with their mining picks and sewing needles getting ready to...be ridiculous. I know that SE has been pretty vague in the scope of what DoH/DoL are going to be doing, but at some point common sense just has to kick in.
#17 May 07 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm beyond this speculative silliness now.


But all we can do is speculate until more information comes to light. :/
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Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#18 May 07 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Default
Quanta wrote:
Quote:
I'm beyond this speculative silliness now.


But all we can do is speculate until more information comes to light. :/


Ideally that speculation would evaluate potential scenarios based on what we already know. I'm not sure where people came up with the idea that there would be a use for full time DoH/DoL in combat parties, but based on what we now know it's pretty obvious that if your taking a Tanner to a fight, it's because they've got an adequately leveled DoW/DoM to help with the fighting and would switch to their Tanner if/when appropriate.
#19 May 07 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Quote:
I'm beyond this speculative silliness now.


But all we can do is speculate until more information comes to light. :/


Ideally that speculation would evaluate potential scenarios based on what we already know. I'm not sure where people came up with the idea that there would be a use for full time DoH/DoL in combat parties, but based on what we now know it's pretty obvious that if your taking a Tanner to a fight, it's because they've got an adequately leveled DoW/DoM to help with the fighting and would switch to their Tanner if/when appropriate.


Unless you've got information that I don't, I'm not 100% sure what DoLs/DoHs are going to be capable of in your average group. Last I checked, information on them was sketchy, at best.

I'll agree with one thing, though: nothing SE has come up with is more ridiculous than a crafter in comba--

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/4708/squallgunbladebyse.jpg

Err...I take that back.

Edited, May 7th 2010 3:34pm by Quanta
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Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#20 May 07 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think it's important to really get to the root of the feeling.
We're just so coded to think combat is 'where all the fun is'. It's really no surprise we think that, typically all the production values go into combat and combat scenarios while traditionally crafting has been this meager monetary monotony we participated in from time to time. So when we hear that crafting classes won't be feasible additions to your average group-oriented Guildleve, we think 'oh crap'.

This is not how it has to be, crafters not having a real hand in combat is not necessarily a condemnation to the types of activities you can fill your day with. That's part of what makes quest-based gameplay so glorious, it's the developer's big bright arrow to point your behavior in a specific direction. And there's nothing saying crafters can't be pointed to group play (with combat classes and eachother), can't be pointed through an epic storyline, or pointed to special experiences and areas meant only for them.


Edited, May 7th 2010 3:44pm by Zemzelette
#21 May 07 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Default
Quanta wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Quote:
I'm beyond this speculative silliness now.


But all we can do is speculate until more information comes to light. :/


Ideally that speculation would evaluate potential scenarios based on what we already know. I'm not sure where people came up with the idea that there would be a use for full time DoH/DoL in combat parties, but based on what we now know it's pretty obvious that if your taking a Tanner to a fight, it's because they've got an adequately leveled DoW/DoM to help with the fighting and would switch to their Tanner if/when appropriate.


Unless you've got information that I don't, I'm not 100% sure what DoLs/DoHs are going to be capable of in your average group. Last I checked, information on them was sketchy, at best.


Players are getting beyond rank 10 with Blacksmithing in the alpha and have yet to uncover any skills that would be of any benefit whatsoever in combat. They are getting class xp from crafting, however (obviously). So DoW/DoM get class xp from fighting, and DoH/DoL get craft xp from plying their trade. Why would SE allow DoH/DoL to double dip from the xp fountain if they could go out and fight and get class xp from the fighting and then head back to town and get more class xp from crafting with the goodies they got while fighting? And if DoH/DoL can't get class xp from fighting, why would they want to go out and fight as a crafting discipline when they could just as easily earn rewards on a combat discipline and then change weapons between the fighting to gather/repair/whatever? And if there's no incentive for them to go out and fight, why give them buffs/debuffs that parties would want? If DoH/DoL were intended to be functional parts of combat groups, why would they get their own distinct guildleves that further award class xp? See how that works? Taking what we know and asking relevant questions to come up with a likely scenario. Reasonable speculation.
#22 May 07 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Players are getting beyond rank 10 with Blacksmithing in the alpha and have yet to uncover any skills that would be of any benefit whatsoever in combat. They are getting class xp from crafting, however (obviously). So DoW/DoM get class xp from fighting, and DoH/DoL get craft xp from plying their trade. Why would SE allow DoH/DoL to double dip from the xp fountain if they could go out and fight and get class xp from the fighting and then head back to town and get more class xp from crafting with the goodies they got while fighting? And if DoH/DoL can't get class xp from fighting, why would they want to go out and fight as a crafting discipline when they could just as easily earn rewards on a combat discipline and then change weapons between the fighting to gather/repair/whatever? And if there's no incentive for them to go out and fight, why give them buffs/debuffs that parties would want? If DoH/DoL were intended to be functional parts of combat groups, why would they get their own distinct guildleves that further award class xp? See how that works? Taking what we know and asking relevant questions to come up with a likely scenario. Reasonable speculation.


I see. That makes sense, then.

I guess the thing I worry about most is seeing crafting professions end up as more of a "hobby" of the combat-oriented classes as opposed to an actual "career" choice that a player will make when they create their character, simply because most players are probably going to opt to see the epic storyline that the combat classes are going to end up getting. Maybe crafters will get one too, but I'm not sure how you make blacksmithing sound epic without involving combat at some point in the process.
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Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#23 May 07 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quanta wrote:
[quote=The One and Only Aurelius][quote=Quanta][quote]I'm beyond this speculative silliness now.


See how that works? Taking what we know and asking relevant questions to come up with a likely scenario. Reasonable speculation.


I understand what you are saying, but the problem is that you have gone to other websites and read about alpha leaks about it all, which many on zam haven't. You might know a lot of what is and what isn't in the game, giving you hints as to what direction SE is taking, whereas it is very difficult to say for someone who doesn't have the same knowledge. Many of us do the same thing as you, it is just that what we "know" is a lot less than what you "know".
#24 May 07 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I see. That makes sense, then.

I guess the thing I worry about most is seeing crafting professions end up as more of a "hobby" of the combat-oriented classes as opposed to an actual "career" choice that a player will make when they create their character, simply because most players are probably going to opt to see the epic storyline that the combat classes are going to end up getting. Maybe crafters will get one too, but I'm not sure how you make blacksmithing sound epic without involving combat at some point in the process.


I can see your point. Would you rather make 100 helmets for the upcoming battle, or be wearing a helmet for battle? I don't know about you, but I know my answer.

I don't see epic and crafting in the same light, but it could easily be fun and important to the storyline. As others have said, some guildleves are for crafters specificly.
Still I'm excited to finally try my hand at a craft. I think I missed out by not really doing any in FFXI. When the game comes out, alchemy it is.
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#25 May 07 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Default
Quanta wrote:
I see. That makes sense, then.

I guess the thing I worry about most is seeing crafting professions end up as more of a "hobby" of the combat-oriented classes as opposed to an actual "career" choice that a player will make when they create their character, simply because most players are probably going to opt to see the epic storyline that the combat classes are going to end up getting. Maybe crafters will get one too, but I'm not sure how you make blacksmithing sound epic without involving combat at some point in the process.


I never saw the DoH/DoL as being something that any significant number of players would choose to focus on exclusively. I saw it as a a reasonably innovative spin on SE's concept of a "character" in FFXIV. Would it be possible to do nothing but progress a DoH/DoL? I would assume so, particularly if you've got a supportive group of friends/guildies that are willing to funnel you materials since farming on your own without a combat class would probably get a little irritating once you got out of the starter zones and the things around you start deciding that your face looks like a tasty snack. All I've ever seen DoH/DoL as are a diverse and innovative way to integrate crafting into your character build beyond simply farming crystals/materials and going nuts. I think people are still having a hard time integrating this concept of equipping skills from one class onto another which certainly isn't helping the confusion.
#26 May 07 2010 at 2:11 PM Rating: Default
Belcrono wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quanta wrote:
[quote=The One and Only Aurelius][quote=Quanta][quote]I'm beyond this speculative silliness now.


See how that works? Taking what we know and asking relevant questions to come up with a likely scenario. Reasonable speculation.


I understand what you are saying, but the problem is that you have gone to other websites and read about alpha leaks about it all, which many on zam haven't. You might know a lot of what is and what isn't in the game, giving you hints as to what direction SE is taking, whereas it is very difficult to say for someone who doesn't have the same knowledge. Many of us do the same thing as you, it is just that what we "know" is a lot less than what you "know".


My information is coming from the FFXIV subforums of a popular and very well known FFXI fansite that has more moderator presence nuking for NDA violations than we have here. I've requested admin clarification on the NDA-relatedness (or not) of this information here out of respect for what Pikko/Elmer etc are trying to do here, but it's not like I'm dredging the underbelly of the intartoobz for this information.

Edited, May 7th 2010 1:13pm by Aurelius
#27 May 07 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd say calling the career crafting mindset rare is fair.
But, so is the career healing mindset, and nobody second-guesses the validity of those mechanics. Actually it's remarkable crafting and gathering has the level of fandom it does for traditionally having the mechanical depth of a kiddie pool. It really says something when a thing is persistent in spite of itself.

:p
If the cutscenes for combat classes are oftentimes more about listening to character development, lore, mystery and political intrigue, why would the cutscenes for a crafting class be centered around needlepoint? It's not a story about the mechanical process of combat, it's a story about the world and combat just so happens to get involved.




Edited, May 7th 2010 4:52pm by Zemzelette
#28 May 07 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Default
Zemzelette wrote:

I'd say calling the career crafting mindset rare is fair.
But, so is the career healing mindset, and nobody second-guesses the validity of those mechanics. Actually it's remarkable crafting and gathering has the level of fandom it does for traditionally having the mechanical depth of a kiddie pool. It really says something when a thing is persistent in spite of itself.

:p
If the cutscenes for combat classes are oftentimes more about listening to character development, lore, and political intrigue, why would the cutscenes for a crafting class be centered around needlepoint?


Probably because the person with the missions questions whether or not a sewing needle or a mining pick is going to be of much use against the horrible nasty monster scourging Eorzea, whereas the person with the giant sword or the ability to conjure fireballs from their fingertips inspires a little more confidence. It seems to me like the way SE initially described the system is creating confusion. I think people saw all these different categories of disciple and jumped to the conclusion that they would all be lumped together in terms of jobs/classes that you might bring to a fight. I never saw it that way, which is why I'm not surprised to see the combat effectiveness of crafting disciplines at this point is near zero.
#29 May 07 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Probably because the person with the missions questions whether or not a sewing needle or a mining pick is going to be of much use against the horrible nasty monster scourging Eorzea, whereas the person with the giant sword or the ability to conjure fireballs from their fingertips inspires a little more confidence.


:p
It's the Alpha and we already have political subterfuge, I don't think it's going to be quite that straightforward a plot. Or least, I think there's adequate enough wiggle room in this mystery of the Flashbacks, omnipresent threat of Garlean empire, shaky Alliances between previously warring city-states that having antagonists that aren't monsters and dramatic tension that isn't combat is at least a reasonable idea. Heck, even XI managed the first.

Edited, May 7th 2010 5:19pm by Zemzelette
#30 May 07 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Default
Zemzelette wrote:

Quote:
Probably because the person with the missions questions whether or not a sewing needle or a mining pick is going to be of much use against the horrible nasty monster scourging Eorzea, whereas the person with the giant sword or the ability to conjure fireballs from their fingertips inspires a little more confidence.


:p
It's the Alpha and we already have political subterfuge, I don't think it's going to be quite that straightforward a plot.


I don't disagree that XIV has everything it needs to create the delicious complex storylines that SE is so well known for, but why does every class need to be combat oriented? I could see SE going all large-scale and having DoH/DoL sent to forward base camps to repair fortifications and heavy weaponry and being given a glimpse at the conflict between the flavor of the month baddie that way, but why would a crafter be called upon to get involved in the turmoil of the land in any other way? If I show up to my nearest military base with a skill saw and a hammer and say, "I'm ready! Get me on the next plane to Afghanistan!" what do you think they're going to say?
#31 May 07 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think you may have misinterpreted one of my earlier posts. :p
I see no problem in making crafting classes non-combatant. I only see a problem in not making them interesting.
#32 May 07 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Default
Zemzelette wrote:

I think you may have misinterpreted one of my earlier posts. :p
I see no problem in making crafting classes non-combatant. I only see a problem in not making them interesting.


I could see that being a concern in a game that was based entirely around crafting. Not so much an issue in a game where people can switch between classes with a minor gear swap and take in the whole deal.
#33 May 07 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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One of the better folks at creating storylines, just so happens to have gone against the grain in such a way that crafters are utilizing this system that's wholly apt for delivering narrative.

At that point it's kind of like, well, why not?



Edited, May 7th 2010 6:02pm by Zemzelette
#34 May 07 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
Zemzelette wrote:

One of the better folks at creating storylines, just so happens to have gone against the grain in such a way that crafters are utilizing this system that's wholly apt for delivering narrative.

At that point it's kind of like, well, why not?


I'm not opposed to it. ****, if there was a way for someone to focus exclusively on a DoH/DoL craft and see the complete story arc, I'd be absolutely fine with that, too. My point is that if I'm building a group to go out and tackle a big evil nasty thing, everyone in the group had best be capable of a lot more than hucking pebbles in order to warrant a spot and so far, that appears to be about the scope of what crafting classes would be able to bring to a fight.
#35 May 07 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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:p And I am dandy with that too.
If only all internet discussions resolved themselves so easily.
#36 May 07 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
Zemzelette wrote:
:p And I am dandy with that too.
If only all internet discussions resolved themselves so easily.


Smiley: motz

Ya, I've got nothing...
#37 May 07 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I really like the idea of a mini-game. I do, however, agree with some people who say that playing the same mini-game over and over again might get a little annoying. I think a good way to fix this might be to shorten the length/decrease the difficulty needed during the mini-game to make certain things as your skill increases. For example, if you have level 99 cooking, you shouldn't have to spend a lot of time and energy making something that is level 20. Even with the option for HQ/NQ, rabbit soup or whatever basic foods we will start out with shouldn't take up a lot of a skilled cooker's time.
#38 May 07 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
Bluefirefly wrote:
I really like the idea of a mini-game. I do, however, agree with some people who say that playing the same mini-game over and over again might get a little annoying. I think a good way to fix this might be to shorten the length/decrease the difficulty needed during the mini-game to make certain things as your skill increases. For example, if you have level 99 cooking, you shouldn't have to spend a lot of time and energy making something that is level 20. Even with the option for HQ/NQ, rabbit soup or whatever basic foods we will start out with shouldn't take up a lot of a skilled cooker's time.


It looks like that shortening of the process will be the case, or at the very least the functionality to shorten it based on your skill would be in place. I think the more drawn out procedures will be reserved for things like armor and weapons where you're willing to take your time and try to get the best result possible. And I could see as well, again referencing the cooking example, that if you just wanted to crank out some basic food it could go very quickly but if you wanted to take your time with it you could end up with better results.
#39 May 07 2010 at 6:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Just for clarification since the information sources are scattered and it would appear that a number of people are having difficulty tracking it down, I'll go over the basics of the system the way it's currently reported to work.

When you go to craft something, you get a crafting interface on your screen that in some ways resembles the old FFXI crafting window (ie. slots to place your materials). After placing your materials in the boxes, you're asked to choose whether to use your main hand tool or sub hand tool.

After selecting, a status pane opens up that shows a completion gauge (looks like an HP bar and starts at 0) and fills as a percentage (empty = 0% complete, full = 100% complete.) In addition, there is a numerical value corresponding to durability. It starts at a number above zero and if it hits zero at any time during the synthesis, the synthesis fails and all (some?) of your mats go poof. And finally, there is a number that corresponds to your "focus". Exactly how this works is a little unclear. It has been suggested that the higher your focus number upon successful completion of the combine, the better your chances of an HQ result. Whether or not focus impacts how much each action progresses the synthesis towards completion is also a bit unclear.

Anywhoo...

You then get a list of actions that you can take that correspond to your "approach" to a particular phase of the synthesis. This can be things like "Standard", hasty, rapid, careful or wait. Different options each produce different results. Hasty, for example, would advance the completion bar a significant amount but would also subtract substantially from the durability and would grant little focus. Careful requires high focus to work reliably and advances the completion bar slowly but results in less durability loss.

You choose your action and you get your results. It is possible to fail an action resulting in a lower than "normal" increase to completion and a penalty to durability, but failing one action does not necessarily mean you fail the entire synthesis attempt. Select another "approach" and repeat the process until you blow your sh*t up or you've completed the synthesis. Note that there does not appear to be any sort of timer at this point (hence my comment before that lag would not likely impact synthesis results). To put it a little more clearly, you'd open the synthesis window, select your mats, select main or sub hand tool, and then select one of the action options. You then get a notification that you have gained <x>% towards completion, lost <y> durability, and gained <z> focus. Select another action and repeat until 100% complete (success) or 0 durability (failure).

Whether or not you'll be able to back out of a synthesis in progress to change tools is unclear at this time. Class xp is granted for successful completion of synthesis. (Whether or not you get a lesser amount for failed synthesis is unclear...I wouldn't count on it, however).

That's the mini-game. As always, information about game systems as they exist in the alpha is subject to change without notice. No NDAs were knowingly violated in the creation of this post. Some moogles, however, were viciously beaten simply out of spite. Have a nice day.


Edited, May 7th 2010 5:28pm by Aurelius
#40 May 08 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not even sure if the new crafting system qualifies as a mini-game (at least not judging from the video I've seen).

It's more like the kick-off meter from Madden '94...
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#41 May 08 2010 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
akirussan wrote:
I'm not even sure if the new crafting system qualifies as a mini-game (at least not judging from the video I've seen).

It's more like the kick-off meter from Madden '94...


I guess it depends largely on how they tune it. There definitely appears to be a lot more player control over the results as opposed to simply selecting materials and then waiting for glory or bankruptcy. I think a lot of the depth will depend on whether or not the durability carries over into the finished product, or whether it's just something used to determine whether you succeed or fail. Part of me thinks that SE wouldn't want to be volunteering to have a seperate item entry in the database for every single ingot or Meat Miq'obob. But if its a case where high quality ingots converted to high quality components and finally into high quality items means the final item will be better than one that was mashed together in a ham-fisted flurry of impatience, crafting just went from "grind mats and have Mysterytour up on the second monitor" to something where diligent crafters will have a significant edge.
#42 May 08 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I like it and i hate it

Like -

Now things might be more then just a simple: sword or sword +1.
It will give some like me, who want to craft full time, a reason to master the craft system
Provides much more versatility to peoples needs when you customize weapons
Is an actual craft system now! let's be honest WoW and FFXI's are pretty boring, dull and every ****** that can click a mouse button can basically do it.


Dislike -

As someone already said, it will get tedious doing it repeatedly. Like forcing you to do the exact same WS/combo on an enemy every, single, time you fight him, without any exceptions.
You could potentially lose some valuable materials if you d/c or interrupt during an craft session.

Edited, May 8th 2010 8:34am by boriss
#43 May 08 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
As someone already said, it will get tedious doing it repeatedly. Like forcing you to do the exact same WS/combo on an enemy every, single, time you fight him, without any exceptions.
You could potentially lose some valuable materials if you d/c or interrupt during an craft session.


I think that (as speculated before) as you gain more skill in your chosen craft, things that are basic will become easier to make. Instead of a ten step process it may become a five or eventually a three step craft.

As for losing your materials, I guess there are 3 ways to do this. If you D/C while crafting you lose your stuff. This prevents people from doing it on purpose because they see it going poorly and want to start over.
Or you could start back at square one upon DC, which as I said before would be very exploitable.
Or, and I don't know how possible it would be, when you re-log you are at the same step you were at when you disconnected. Seeing as how the steps don't time out I don't see it being impossible for that to be the case.

I wonder if you can use new tools as you level for better crafts. Blacksmith Lv 1: Rock tied to stick. Max Level: Mjöllnir?
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#44 May 08 2010 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Could be the tools used can be a form of progression, a rock tied to a stick would be appropriate for working with copper, but as you move to the stronger and harder materials, they require higher strength tools (e.g. Moljnir would be overkill for copper, but you need something that strong to work adaman). I don't imagine the equivalent rarity would apply, just making stronger tools available but unusable to people with lower skill levels.
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#45 May 08 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Default
ReiThor wrote:
Quote:
As someone already said, it will get tedious doing it repeatedly. Like forcing you to do the exact same WS/combo on an enemy every, single, time you fight him, without any exceptions.
You could potentially lose some valuable materials if you d/c or interrupt during an craft session.


I think that (as speculated before) as you gain more skill in your chosen craft, things that are basic will become easier to make. Instead of a ten step process it may become a five or eventually a three step craft.

As for losing your materials, I guess there are 3 ways to do this. If you D/C while crafting you lose your stuff. This prevents people from doing it on purpose because they see it going poorly and want to start over.
Or you could start back at square one upon DC, which as I said before would be very exploitable.
Or, and I don't know how possible it would be, when you re-log you are at the same step you were at when you disconnected. Seeing as how the steps don't time out I don't see it being impossible for that to be the case.

I wonder if you can use new tools as you level for better crafts. Blacksmith Lv 1: Rock tied to stick. Max Level: Mjöllnir?


A rock tied to a stick is the only tool I'm allowed to use at work without a helmet <.<

I think it's a very safe speculation that higher class rank in a particular discipline will allow for faster combines (fewer steps). As it's currently tuned, a basic low level ingot can be a one or two step process for a relatively low rank Blacksmith. And I do expect to see better tools available as upgrades as you progress your class. LOTRO has a system similar to that for their tools where better tools have higher durability and also increase chances for critical success (HQ). SE could do something very similar where different tools have varying impacts on rate of completion, durability decay, and probably even focus.
#46 May 08 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I know you mentioned having the ability to use a main hand tool or an offhand tool to start the combination.

Is it possible you may need to swap tools during the synth at a certain point for higher level synths?

I also imagine you could wind up in total 'crafter gear', at higher levels that may improve your focus. Like an apron, gloves, and goggles, for the woodworkers or blacksmiths. Or a Toque, and coat for chefs. Or asbestos gloves and magnifier for alchemists. Stuff like that.
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#47 May 08 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Default
LebargeX wrote:
I know you mentioned having the ability to use a main hand tool or an offhand tool to start the combination.

Is it possible you may need to swap tools during the synth at a certain point for higher level synths?

I also imagine you could wind up in total 'crafter gear', at higher levels that may improve your focus. Like an apron, gloves, and goggles, for the woodworkers or blacksmiths. Or a Toque, and coat for chefs. Or asbestos gloves and magnifier for alchemists. Stuff like that.


It wouldn't surprise me to see the option to switch tools partway through the crafting process, although it could just be a case where certain tools can only be equipped in a specific slot (main/sub) but from there you have to select the appropriate tool for the particular synthesis and then follow through with that tool to completion. It could be that the tools provide bonuses to crafting similar to the way weapons/armor can provide bonuses to stats. As example, say you had a smithing hammer that gave <x> bonus to focus and tongs that gave <y> bonus to focus...those bonuses might be additive even if you were only using the hammer for the combine. I haven't seen or read anything about people trying to change tools midway through the process, however, so I can't really say one way or the other how it currently works in that regard or how SE intends to have it work for retail release.
#48 May 08 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It wouldn't surprise me to see the option to switch tools partway through the crafting process, although it could just be a case where certain tools can only be equipped in a specific slot (main/sub) but from there you have to select the appropriate tool for the particular synthesis and then follow through with that tool to completion. It could be that the tools provide bonuses to crafting similar to the way weapons/armor can provide bonuses to stats. As example, say you had a smithing hammer that gave <x> bonus to focus and tongs that gave <y> bonus to focus...those bonuses might be additive even if you were only using the hammer for the combine.


That way makes sense too. And then, you'd need different combinations of tools for different jobs. Like tongs and hammer for armor, or file and hammer for swords, for example.

However they wind up setting it up for final release, it certainly seems like there's a pretty large potential for crafting being a bit more involved. I was pretty into crafting in FFXI, and I for one am definitely looking forward to the new system.
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#49 May 08 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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There are many ways to work a crafter into a storyline, as long as they can get from place to place.

I mean, imagine you enter your guild and a cutscene happens where a government official requests a new order of some military equipment. But why? The nation is at peace. You get ordered to deliver the new supplies. You accidentally get word of some military plan that you weren't supposed to hear. They decide to recruit you for whatever their purposes are. They send you and an official on a caravan to some remote village to meet with their correspondent there. You work with some others to reinforce the new battlements. Maybe help with some secret weapon they're developing. Who knows?

Just because someone isn't directly involved with combat, doesn't mean plot has to go to the wayside. The best spies, in spite of movies and Ian Fleming novels, rarely do much fighting. I imagine the same folks who are fine crafting all day, are probably okay with plotlines without a strong combat focus. Few books have a great deal of fighting, and yet some of us enjoy those.

Crafting isn't really epic, sure, by itself. But going into an enemy base, building a bomb there McGuyver-style or setting up a trap, can be pretty fine as well.
#50 May 08 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Just because someone isn't directly involved with combat, doesn't mean plot has to go to the wayside. The best spies, in spite of movies and Ian Fleming novels, rarely do much fighting. I imagine the same folks who are fine crafting all day, are probably okay with plotlines without a strong combat focus. Few books have a great deal of fighting, and yet some of us enjoy those.


It just occurred to me: if they made DoH/DoL plotlines play out like something out of Spice & Wolf, it'd be the most awesome thing in the history of everything ever.

Edited, May 8th 2010 3:38pm by Quanta
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#51 May 11 2010 at 5:08 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
I think people are still having a hard time integrating this concept of equipping skills from one class onto another which certainly isn't helping the confusion.


i instantly thought of FF8 and FFTA. learning skills from weapons isn't a new idea in the final fantasy franchise, and neither are "class-less" nor "multiclass" systems.

in fact, for some reason, i've always identified the final fantasy franchise with mix-n-max character development. what's confusing me is the organization of player characters into "disciplines" and "classes" at all when everything i've heard of the system seems to deny any rigid boundaries (specialization) on character growth.
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