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#1 May 12 2010 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Today i saw a video about how mining works, it was very interesting.

OK, this is a new video that will help you understand how mining on FFXIV works. In the below video the player is on a quest that requires him to gather mined items.
Mining is done through a skill based menu. Once you start to attempt to mine a circle will appear on the screen.


An inner ring grows from the centre of the circle and with a timed button press you stop the growth of the ring. It looks like you want to get the inner ring as large as you can without it growing bigger than the circle.






After the first attempt the inner ring shrinks a little, then the next attempt repeats the process but uses the shrunken ring as the maximum area the next ring can occupy.
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#2 May 12 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Cool, I like the sound of crafting mini games. I hope that they add additional things to make it more interesting as you try to mine "higher level" materials, otherwise I could see it getting too tedious.
#3 May 12 2010 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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... Yeah, I beleive this info comes from a leak so this thread won't be here long.

Edit: though there was sonething about mining in one of the magazines so who knows.

Edited, May 12th 2010 10:30pm by zurinadrg
#4 May 12 2010 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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In before lock.

And...

How do I mine for fish?
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Also... Hunter 62, Rogue 52, Warrior 66, Warlock 43, Death Knight 70, Shaman Who Cares? ;)

FFXI -- Caia -- Retired/Deleted -- Blm 75, Alchemy 97
Pandimonium server - Rank 10 - Bastok

Zaela Rdm -- 35, Alchemy 45 -- Forced into retirement because I didn't have the right kind of credit card. Hope it was worth 18 bucks a month, SE.

#5 May 12 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm just hoping they come up with something that won't be widely abused by bots.. The concern I'd have with something like this, is bots being able to do it 'perfectly' every time, where a human has no chance at it.

That said, anything is better than the simplistic "trade the pick-axe to the Mining Point" in a vacuum.

Kinda sad when you see some improvement in a system and the first thing that comes to mind is "well, to what extent will bots be able to exploit it?"
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#6 May 12 2010 at 10:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm just hoping they come up with something that won't be widely abused by bots.. The concern I'd have with something like this, is bots being able to do it 'perfectly' every time, where a human has no chance at it.


Its nearly impossible to make something bot proof. They can make it hard to bot, but anyone that wants to, and has enough spare time, can beat it.

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WoW -- Zaia -- Dragonmaw -- Mage 80 BABY! Alchemy 450
Also... Hunter 62, Rogue 52, Warrior 66, Warlock 43, Death Knight 70, Shaman Who Cares? ;)

FFXI -- Caia -- Retired/Deleted -- Blm 75, Alchemy 97
Pandimonium server - Rank 10 - Bastok

Zaela Rdm -- 35, Alchemy 45 -- Forced into retirement because I didn't have the right kind of credit card. Hope it was worth 18 bucks a month, SE.

#7 May 12 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Good
Caia wrote:
Quote:
I'm just hoping they come up with something that won't be widely abused by bots.. The concern I'd have with something like this, is bots being able to do it 'perfectly' every time, where a human has no chance at it.


Its nearly impossible to make something bot proof. They can make it hard to bot, but anyone that wants to, and has enough spare time, can beat it.



True. But SE came up with a good anti-bot system with the not-so-new now Fishing system in XI. I'm sure they're keeping that in mind for XIV. But yeah, nothing's 100% unbottable.
#8 May 12 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah I understand that certainly, but the idea should be to design something that while interesting and fun to execute isn't easy to bot.. And for the platform to hopefully catch those who do cheat.

FFXI failed miserably on all accounts.. I'm willing to give SE a mulligan as they're in a much better position this time around. They've gained knowledge and experiance.. But they better at least try this time. They flat haven't in XI.
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#9 May 13 2010 at 12:27 AM Rating: Good
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Carrilei wrote:
Yeah I understand that certainly, but the idea should be to design something that while interesting and fun to execute isn't easy to bot.. And for the platform to hopefully catch those who do cheat.

FFXI failed miserably on all accounts.. I'm willing to give SE a mulligan as they're in a much better position this time around. They've gained knowledge and experiance.. But they better at least try this time. They flat haven't in XI.


I think it's safe to say that they have at least tried, if they hadn't been trying then fishing would still be simple limitless command instead of a 200 fish/day minigame, unless you are under level 20, or hadn't been playing longer than (2?) weeks, or aren't high enough level to fish in areas with coastline patrolling goblins and not be bothered by aggro. This of course isn't to mention the stuff they did to various farmed goods, the false positives of certain mule gardeners and changes to alchemy products as of a year ago (give or take). My problem isn't lack of effort, that they have in spades these days versus during the height of inflation, it's what their effort means to everyone else affected by the changes they make, those who aren't exploiting the system and shouldn't be caught in the collateral damage.

Make it hard to automate, don't make it hard to do.
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#10 May 13 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Unless I'm misinformed, Fishing bots are still readily available and in widespread use. It's a large reason I stopped my Fishing at 55 - why grind away endlessly when there are thousands of people who use a bot instead?

When I say not try, that's probably more targeted at the '..and try to ban the cheaters' part. They don't try to catch botters - perhaps because the platform they have in place is difficult to work with, I don't know.. But never have I seen someone be banned for botting despite it littering the game. I'm sure it's happened to someone, somewhere, but one idiot getting the axe based more on stupidity than anything else while 100 others go on untouched indefinately isn't an acceptable reality to me, no matter what the 'effort' level is.
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#11 May 13 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
True. But SE came up with a good anti-bot system with the not-so-new now Fishing system in XI. I'm sure they're keeping that in mind for XIV. But yeah, nothing's 100% unbottable.


Actually, the new system is much easier to build a bot for than the old system was. I won't go into too much detail about it, but since the new version has a little bar which goes back and forth it is very very easy to write a bot to be able to tell which way to pull the rod. Under the old system, the bot writer had to pay attention to certain pixels on the screen that weren't terribly obvious the way the new system is.

Now that's not to say the first version was substantially better. Just harder to build a decent bot for.

Quote:
FFXI failed miserably on all accounts.. I'm willing to give SE a mulligan as they're in a much better position this time around. They've gained knowledge and experiance.. But they better at least try this time. They flat haven't in XI.


Wow, write this day down. I'm going to defend SE on something.

Its **** near impossible to make something in a game unbottable. Whatever you can throw at the player, the programmer can adapt to. About the only way to stop it would be to add a captcha-like program. ( For details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPTCHA ) Though, this has its own set of issues. One, its **** annoying to have to enter random text every time you want to mine. Secondly, most captcha programs can be broken eventually. The older ones were broken very quickly. The newer ones are proving much more difficult to bot.

This isn't something SE can just put a band-aid on and hope it goes away. There isn't a whole lot they can do about it.

Quote:
When I say not try, that's probably more targeted at the '..and try to ban the cheaters' part. They don't try to catch botters - perhaps because the platform they have in place is difficult to work with, I don't know.. But never have I seen someone be banned for botting despite it littering the game. I'm sure it's happened to someone, somewhere, but one idiot getting the axe based more on stupidity than anything else while 100 others go on untouched indefinately isn't an acceptable reality to me, no matter what the 'effort' level is.


Basic bots are easy to find and get rid of. The issue is the more advanced bots and SE's policy to "not annoy legitimate gamers."

SE's GMs need some sort of proof that someone is botting. They have a variety of ways of testing for bots, but smart programmers know what they are and can avoid most ways of beng caught red handed. I can go into detail about it, but I'd rather not as it lets others know how to fool SE (and other game makers for that matter).

People assume its very easy to catch bots. But SE has limited resources and needs some proof before the act on anything. As such its much harder to rid the game of botters than most people realize.

Edited, May 13th 2010 3:13am by Caia
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WoW -- Zaia -- Dragonmaw -- Mage 80 BABY! Alchemy 450
Also... Hunter 62, Rogue 52, Warrior 66, Warlock 43, Death Knight 70, Shaman Who Cares? ;)

FFXI -- Caia -- Retired/Deleted -- Blm 75, Alchemy 97
Pandimonium server - Rank 10 - Bastok

Zaela Rdm -- 35, Alchemy 45 -- Forced into retirement because I didn't have the right kind of credit card. Hope it was worth 18 bucks a month, SE.

#12 May 13 2010 at 1:13 AM Rating: Decent
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What about Warden and similar anti-cheating tools? To me if they launch XIV without anything to help them catch people botting and hacking, they're not trying. I had the perception years ago that SE cared more about the legitimacy of their online game than any other company. If XIV becomes the massive botfest XI is without them really trying to make it otherwise, sadly there's no way I could think that anymore.
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#13 May 13 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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What about Warden and similar anti-cheating tools? To me if they launch XIV without anything to help them catch people botting and hacking, they're not trying. <snip>


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_%28software%29

Warden (and other programs like it) are a good tool to slow down botting, but they are by no means 100% accurate. Those that know what they are doing can easily bypass Warden. Again, I'd rather not go into the specifics of it because I'd rather not help people bypass such programs. Just take my word that, with a bit of knowledge, Warden won't work.
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WoW -- Zaia -- Dragonmaw -- Mage 80 BABY! Alchemy 450
Also... Hunter 62, Rogue 52, Warrior 66, Warlock 43, Death Knight 70, Shaman Who Cares? ;)

FFXI -- Caia -- Retired/Deleted -- Blm 75, Alchemy 97
Pandimonium server - Rank 10 - Bastok

Zaela Rdm -- 35, Alchemy 45 -- Forced into retirement because I didn't have the right kind of credit card. Hope it was worth 18 bucks a month, SE.

#14 May 13 2010 at 1:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think getting rid of botting is indeed impossible, but, I think the heart of your concern is less that some people are juking the system and more that it ends up impacting your enjoyment of the game.

Games have been successfully designed in such a way the activities of gilsellers have so little effect they operate as an underground black market as opposed to wallstreet tycoons. This has less to do with the method of which resources are acquired, and more to do with how easy it is to corner and manipulate the market.

Crafting/Gathering being bottable doesn't necessarily mean the economy is in trouble.
#15 May 13 2010 at 2:03 AM Rating: Good
Carrilei wrote:
I had the perception years ago that SE cared more about the legitimacy of their online game than any other company. If XIV becomes the massive botfest XI is without them really trying to make it otherwise, sadly there's no way I could think that anymore.


If anything, SE has gone to the other extreme where botting is concerned and OVER reacted. I believe there's still a sticky on the top of these forums to the tune of "SE is STILL Banning".

There's been interviews where SE has talked about botting/gilselling and XIV. They've said pretty outright that they are going to be actively combating it right from the start. I believe they've learned a lot about botters/gilsellers in XI (their first MMO btw). I'm sure they're going to take that knowledge and apply it well in XIV. At least, I hope...
#16 May 13 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Zemzelette wrote:

I think getting rid of botting is indeed impossible, but, I think the heart of your concern is less that some people are juking the system and more that it ends up impacting your enjoyment of the game.

Games have been successfully designed in such a way the activities of gilsellers have so little effect they operate as an underground black market as opposed to wallstreet tycoons. This has less to do with the method of which resources are acquired, and more to do with how easy it is to corner and manipulate the market.

Crafting/Gathering being bottable doesn't necessarily mean the economy is in trouble.


Very valid point. Who knows what measures SE will take to protect the economy.
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