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#1 May 13 2010 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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....Character growth. Can a new born baby kick a soccer ball into a net their 1st day into a new world? Can a new born baby make a peanut a jelly sandwich? Can a new born baby change an oil filter after 5000 miles? Can a new born baby cut through metal with the newly forge katana that was give to them? No they can't. Just like everything else in the universe, everything must grow before its potential is realized and/or seen.

I see everyone, who is complaining, talking about the battle system being to slow. Forget it being an alpha. What game do you all know, that gives everything at the beginning with no learning curve? Or, "What are all these tools/functions for, I'm confused,overwhelmed?"

For all the mmo's I can remember. I don't recall any of them getting fast and furious until endgame/level cap. SE wants growth to be a big part of this game, and I can tell you that nothing fast is going to happen to our characters till their growth is at its fullest.

Look at any mmo, they always start of slow, combat wise, and it gets crazier the more you grow your character. Even ones that starts off being fast to most people, becomes even faster as their growth develops.

The only thing people should be looking at and reviewing, till this beautiful piece of art comes out, is how fluid the animation is,(walking, running, battle, emotes, crafting)the visuals, draw distance, and the progression of how the servers are stabilizing to load of the people logging in. Because, even when the game comes out and all the above are in perfect shape, your character is still going to have some growing to do. And that one swipe or strike, you can only do,will turn into a 5-6hit combo/magic burst(whatever it may be..).

Also go in knowing this is not an action RPG. I see alot of these new f2p mmos going that route. Get that out of your head going in. This is a tradition RPG mmo with a battle system, like most people have deduce, to be a little along the lines of ff9,10 11,12 with its own originality.

With a battle system that will be a little faster paced that 11, the vets can all agree, it should be fun as heck. And, when a year from now, we all are laughing at the foolish things that were ranted about in some of these forums.

The review going on now are premature and silly and have no merit where the battle system is concerned.

Peace out! One

Edited, May 13th 2010 10:14am by Rustyshield

Edited, May 13th 2010 10:19am by Rustyshield
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#2 May 13 2010 at 8:32 AM Rating: Good
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I like your post. You strike some very true chords. Now I'm posting from a semi-naive standpoint, I've never alpha tested a game so I'm not sure what kind of kinks are "normal"

But I've heard people say the battle system feels slow and in my own head I've almost instantly said "It's only an alpha, and people are still learning the controls"

I hope we're both correct. Time will tell, but I have high hopes.
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#3 May 13 2010 at 8:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rustyshield wrote:
The only thing people should be looking at and reviewing, till this beautiful piece of art comes out, is how fluid the animation is,(walking, running, battle, emotes, crafting)the visuals, draw distance, and the progression of how the servers are stabilizing to load of the people logging in.

Actually that probably the element of the game we should be looking least at. Most MMORPGs improve significantly upon animation and lighting/texturing before release, and the quality of the look of the game in alpha isn't an indicator of how it will look during release.

The overall flow and style of combat is one of the elements that tends to stay the same. In the early levels you have fewer moves, but you tend to use them just as often as you would normal moves. By around level 6 the pace of the entire game is usually set. If we're seeing a 6-12 wait between actions now then it is likely we'll see a 6-12 second wait between actions at end game, even if our number of skills vastly increases. There are still a few possible situations which negate that possibility, but probability seems to be favoring a slow game at this point.

Edited, May 13th 2010 9:52am by Allegory
#4 May 13 2010 at 9:00 AM Rating: Decent
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The main problem isn't that people are looking at the wrong or right things, they are scrutinizing them way too much. We might get a significantly different game when it is released. It may look similar but they may abandon a lot of the things they have created.

Heck look at Age of Conan. Was great through the first city and felt like a truly diverse experience... way too linear but whatever that's okay. Then after that the game went downhill. Now a days all i hear is positive comments about how amazing the game has gotten and how much better it is. This is during release too... imagine what a company can do during the beta.

The game has a lot of problems, i'm a coder i know exactly how it feels. Who knows the game could potentially get worse or better. Personally i think you should stay away from any personal experiences about how good it is or is not until it hits open beta or release.

Although we don't remember it(and i wasn't part of it...) i bet this exact same thing happened during the FF11 beta.
#5 May 13 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I wholeheartedly agree with you. It is inevitable to look at the alpha and not find something that you would like to be changed or altered, that's the whole point of the alpha. I have found myself countless times looking through alpha information and footage finding elements here and there that need to be changed, and I'm sure they will. All in all the game looks beautiful, is playing out great for the beginning stages of alpha, and I feel it is going to be a wonderful MMO at release. People do need to look at all the alpha information with a grain of salt, remembering that we aren't supposed to even see it yet.
#6 May 13 2010 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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Is this a response to threads in another forum? I don't see any complaining here about the battle system, likely due to ZAM's NDA policy for beta-related info.
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#7 May 13 2010 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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Eske wrote:
Is this a response to threads in another forum? I don't see any complaining here about the battle system, likely due to ZAM's NDA policy for beta-related info.


Yeah that's what I was thinking too. OP is ranting against something, but not the stuff that happens over here...
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#8 May 13 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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The first rule of FFXIVght club is we don't talk about FFXIVght club!
#9 May 13 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with your post for the most part. The thing I try to balance in my mind is saying too much while it's in alpha, and saying not enough. If everyone passes off everything they see wrong as 'well it'll probably get better, it's only alpha' then you could have a finished product looking very similar to an unfinished game. But yes, there's definitely a difference between whining and critiquing.

For the most part though, I'm encouraged by what I see. Cautiously hopeful for more growth I suppose.
#10 May 13 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
The overall flow and style of combat is one of the elements that tends to stay the same. In the early levels you have fewer moves, but you tend to use them just as often as you would normal moves. By around level 6 the pace of the entire game is usually set. If we're seeing a 6-12 wait between actions now then it is likely we'll see a 6-12 second wait between actions at end game, even if our number of skills vastly increases. There are still a few possible situations which negate that possibility, but probability seems to be favoring a slow game at this point.


That is not the case with any MMO I have ever played. When you get higher level you get more haste or faster mana regen or faster AP regen or something to offset the slowness of the initial levels. The combat system is faster and more complex at end game than it is when you start a new character.
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#11 May 13 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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This is also posted on gamefaqs lol... Everything over there is a rant about slow combat because in the leaked videos people can't be bothered to look in the corner of the screen to see the person is lagging (S and R thing is yellow just like in FFXI when you lag)
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#12 May 13 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Combat was slower in FFXI when compared to wow also.
Short of the albeit excessive length between some 2 hand weapon swing times the end result was that it tended to be easier to know what was happening in battle. This made healing a heck of allot less reactionary allowing you more time to decide what to do and what cool downs to pop and even give you time to look at the actual combat rather than be forced into watching nothing but everyone's life bars trying your hardest to not blink your eyes too often lest someone dies within that tiny amount of time.

Videos of FFXIV seem quite a bit slower than even FFXI. :/
That is not that big of a deal imho, "faster is better" is just as true as "more is always better"....
unless its a bug causing everything to be slower than it should be..

Who knows..
#13 May 13 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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kyansaroo wrote:
That is not the case with any MMO I have ever played. When you get higher level you get more haste or faster mana regen or faster AP regen or something to offset the slowness of the initial levels. The combat system is faster and more complex at end game than it is when you start a new character.

By a factor of 2 or more? I agree that many MMORPGs become faster as you reach endgame, but I'm speaking of significant speed increases. You can get haste in FFXI and WoW, but even with my outdated knowledge of both those games I don't believe in either of them you can reduce your abilities to a third of their normal cast/cd times.

It appears form the videos that there is about a six to twelve second interval between abilities. Personally, unless the game has an astonishing amount of tactical depth that takes us all by surprise, this is going to be far too much time for me. I would spend most of the combat waiting for my "turn."
#14 May 13 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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I could swear I remember reading that combat would be slower than FFXI.
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#15 May 13 2010 at 6:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I could swear I remember reading that combat would be slower than FFXI.


I recall reading that they want it to be more "cerebral" but I don't remember them having said they wanted it slower. They can't really afford to make it any slower unless they want people to go afk for a snack between attacks without missing a beat.
#16 May 13 2010 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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'Cerebral' could mean anything from.. a system where elements are weak/strong against other elements and types of physical attacks are weak/strong against different armors, to SE saying 'we don't want reaction time to be a huge factor in combat'. That's a pretty big gap but I don't know where they said that so I don't know the context. To me it seems... err, were I to see any videos of said combat... that lag is also playing a part.

This could also be a product of perhaps a specific class flaw and not a combat flaw. Perhaps a class like, say Archer, has fewer abilities and a slower attack at earlier levels. Again, I'm holding judgement for the time being, if it gets to mid-late beta like that, then maybe it's time to start worrying a bit.
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#17 May 14 2010 at 3:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't see the problem with people expressing their opinions on a mechanic they dislike. This is the point of the development system. So the developers can get feedback from players as to what they would like in the game they are going to buy. If people are fighting for faster battles, I'm okay with that since I'm used to faster games now. I have no real desire to go back to the huge wait time like in FFXI.

As other posters mentioned above. Who exactly is complaining though? I haven't seen a single thing in these forums about that. Which is sad since these are the only ones I currently know about.
#18 May 14 2010 at 5:26 AM Rating: Good
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i think it's a truly telling feature of the gamer population that they simply can't seem to take in a new gaming experience without immediately comparing it against their preconceptions which are themselves nothing more than the post-digestion stereotypes of other games.

i often hear of game developers being unwilling to take risks and implement radically new gameplay mechanics, but i think as i've grown older that it is only wise of them to take this approach. not because they aren't creative enough to give us really mind-warping gameplay, but because the vast majority of gamers only want the same old familiar paradigms and systems of older games. you guys are talking about how "all mmos have these features and we can therefore judge FFXIV for its adherence to those other games' designs".

how silly.

if you want to complain about a feature in FFXIV, then talk about it for its own merits. all the posts up there which have referenced another game, shame on you. how dare you (Allegory) talk about how games change "at level 6" as if all mmos changed at that specific level... really? really???

what if FFXIV gets slower as you approach the cap? what if it doesn't have a cap? what if combat is "slow" only for some characters, and not for others? what if we do in fact see radical changes in the combat system before it even hits beta?

and even besides all that, i'd think the gaming world would be getting rather sore from all the face-rolling and key-mashing that WoW is made up of. i, for one, would be thrilled by an mmo that didn't so resemble Quake. if i have to cast frostbolt one more time, so help me...
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#19 May 14 2010 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
...comparing it against their preconceptions which are themselves nothing more than the post-digestion stereotypes of other games.


Quote:
i'd think the gaming world would be getting rather sore from all the face-rolling and key-mashing that WoW is made up of. i, for one, would be thrilled by an mmo that didn't so resemble Quake.


So, you're upset that people have stereotypes but have no issue using them yourself. Did I get that right?
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#20 May 14 2010 at 7:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I recall reading that they want it to be more "cerebral" but I don't remember them having said they wanted it slower. They can't really afford to make it any slower unless they want people to go afk for a snack between attacks without missing a beat.


Agreed, how can you make FFXI slower? Out of all the games i played it was by far the slowest paced in more then just combat.

I used to afk with my thief all the time. Just every 1-2 battles hit the SA+TA macro and then stand there again. The games required little thinking for a lot of classes. Everyone else seemed to do the same thing too, so many minutes wasted waiting for someone to come back because they went afk. Have twice as many battles at half the length. Keep people interested and excited. Make the world seem a little more populated too.

Personally if they can make special moves less effective and more frequent it might take a step in the right direction. Just seems the game depending upon the tiny little "luck" effects way too much.
#21 May 14 2010 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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Caia wrote:
Quote:
...comparing it against their preconceptions which are themselves nothing more than the post-digestion stereotypes of other games.


Quote:
i'd think the gaming world would be getting rather sore from all the face-rolling and key-mashing that WoW is made up of. i, for one, would be thrilled by an mmo that didn't so resemble Quake.


So, you're upset that people have stereotypes but have no issue using them yourself. Did I get that right?


I believe he/she was using that stereotype as an example to prove his/her point. Comparing FFXIV to other games where the standard is held constantly will only lead to a game similar to said other games. I as well am hoping for a different kind of MMO. The point is to be open-minded and not expect every MMO to follow certain pre-set standards so that we can get a game all of us will enjoy.
#22 May 14 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Default
snieh wrote:
I don't see the problem with people expressing their opinions on a mechanic they dislike. This is the point of the development system. So the developers can get feedback from players as to what they would like in the game they are going to buy. If people are fighting for faster battles, I'm okay with that since I'm used to faster games now. I have no real desire to go back to the huge wait time like in FFXI.

As other posters mentioned above. Who exactly is complaining though? I haven't seen a single thing in these forums about that. Which is sad since these are the only ones I currently know about.


The issue right now is that there are certain forums where people are looking at leaked alpha footage and complaining about the pacing of combat. It's horribly, horribly slow. The mystery issue right now is just how much of the pace of combat is a reflection of what SE intends and how much of it is a function of the lag in conjunction with inexperienced players not really knowing what they're doing. The OP cut and paste his appeal for patience to "a few" fansites, apparently not stopping to ocnsider the context under which he posted them.
#23 May 14 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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boriss wrote:
I used to afk with my thief all the time. Just every 1-2 battles hit the SA+TA macro and then stand there again. The games required little thinking for a lot of classes. Everyone else seemed to do the same thing too, so many minutes wasted waiting for someone to come back because they went afk. Have twice as many battles at half the length. Keep people interested and excited. Make the world seem a little more populated too.


Did you ever play red mage? %-|
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#24 May 14 2010 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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In most of these videos with slow combat.. Are they swinging 2 hand weapons?

AngusX wrote:
boriss wrote:
I used to afk with my thief all the time. Just every 1-2 battles hit the SA+TA macro and then stand there again. The games required little thinking for a lot of classes. Everyone else seemed to do the same thing too, so many minutes wasted waiting for someone to come back because they went afk. Have twice as many battles at half the length. Keep people interested and excited. Make the world seem a little more populated too.


Did you ever play red mage? %-|


I was thinking the same thing but he does state some classes and not all of them requiering very little thinking. IMHO I can agree with that.. While rdm was absolutely at the brink of my sanity as far as complexity and timing playing war was waiting for my tp to reach 100 most of the time...

Should be a middle ground imo..

Edited, May 14th 2010 12:43pm by thorazinekizzez
#25 May 14 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Allegory wrote:
kyansaroo wrote:
That is not the case with any MMO I have ever played. When you get higher level you get more haste or faster mana regen or faster AP regen or something to offset the slowness of the initial levels. The combat system is faster and more complex at end game than it is when you start a new character.

By a factor of 2 or more? I agree that many MMORPGs become faster as you reach endgame, but I'm speaking of significant speed increases. You can get haste in FFXI and WoW, but even with my outdated knowledge of both those games I don't believe in either of them you can reduce your abilities to a third of their normal cast/cd times.
While haste caps at 50% for spells, it doesn't cap until 80% for auto-attack... which means you get some pretty insane speeds. And 70-80% isn't especially difficult for a DD to get (/sam or SAM/, equipment, haste (a mage), march (a bard) and samba (a dancer)). Just having some decent equipment and a mage around, which should be any endgame activity - a 2-handed DD will have about 40% haste. If you have enough bards in your linkshell (more than one) you can even spare one for the DD party, bringing them to 60%.

And this isn't even getting into dual wield, which just about every 1-handed DD uses. Thats 15% just for starters (20% with Suppanomimi which isn't especially uncommon).

Endgame really is a lot faster. As for actual abilities, you can't change their speed at all other than merits - and thats only for some - but in FFXI, perhaps you could class weapon-skills as abilities. Their speed of use rises with TP generation, and thus speed.

This isn't even getting into zergs which have become increasingly popular as of late - in these every DD will be at 75-80%. Thats faster than Monks 2hour, Hundred Fists (77%).

I really am considering creating a video of myself playing either Samurai or Thief or Monk - heck even Dark Knight - just to show people in these FFXIV forums how fast FFXI really could get if you create an efficient party setup.

Quote:
I used to afk with my thief all the time. Just every 1-2 battles hit the SA+TA macro and then stand there again. The games required little thinking for a lot of classes. Everyone else seemed to do the same thing too, so many minutes wasted waiting for someone to come back because they went afk. Have twice as many battles at half the length. Keep people interested and excited. Make the world seem a little more populated too.
Please tell me this was during the exp process. This kind of activity is the sad reason why THF has developed such a bad rep as a DD. I suggest you ask some of the THF forums how busy they can be in endgame activities. The difference between a good and a bad DD is just... so blindlingly obvious - especially in the use of parsers, there is no way FF requires little thinking. Something that doesn't require little thinking cant mean two DD's of similiar equipment, and in the same party, can have such drastically different damage results. And no, luck has barely any effect on this - unless you're parsing for < 5 minutes.

-------------------------

Also I might as well retort myself rather than saving it for later;

You're using specific examples without mentioning the other side of end-game, DD's sitting around building TP, or not being able to stack haste because they need ACC/ATT to hit! Not to mention mages and bards are too preoccupied with more important duties than buffing the DD.

Sure. This is true, well, sometimes. These kind of methods were certainly prelevant in FFXI a few years ago, DD's had a very boring time pretty much sitting on the sidelines, attacking every now and then... mostly doing nothing for up to an hour at a time (looking at you Kirin). Though these examples really weren't that common, or at least are not now. For anything extremely big, maybe, but for just about every other activity DD's should be functioning similiarly as to a merit party.

Of course some LS's cant do this though, their DD's are underbuffed because they can't spare bards around, or their DD's dont have very good gear because they haven't obtained it yet. This is also true, but it is becomingly increasinly uncommon nowdays.

Heck, LS's are up to the point where all that big stuff that you 'have' to fight slowly... they're zerging it! The complete opposite! How is this for slow-ffxi-combat? I do realise the irony in showing an low-buffed THF not wearing any haste gear (they're wearing 14% of SLOW gear and is using the slowest form of dagger available) - but you can see how the others are playing around him/her.

Basically; speed has become part of modern FFXI - slow combat really is uncommon nowadays. The mechanics were always there, they're just more easily accessed now. Heck we had this in 2007 before the cap was nerfed.

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tl;dr conceptions of FFXI's speed seem to be based on what its like with zero buffs, or alternatively what endgame was like over three years ago.

Edited, May 14th 2010 5:14pm by LordFaramir
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#26 May 14 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:
While haste caps at 50% for spells, it doesn't cap until 80% for auto-attack... which means you get some pretty insane speeds. And 70-80% isn't especially difficult for a DD to get (/sam or SAM/, equipment, haste (a mage), march (a bard) and samba (a dancer)). Just having some decent equipment and a mage around, which should be any endgame activity - a 2-handed DD will have about 40% haste. If you have enough bards in your linkshell (more than one) you can even spare one for the DD party, bringing them to 60%.

Well auto-attack speed isn't particularly relevant. I understand that in ffxi it builds tp faster and therefore allows you to use weaponskills more frequently, but ignoring the ws aspect it's just an automatic animation. Whether someone autoattacks once every second for 50 damage or once every 6 seconds for 300 damage doesn't change the number of choices they made per second.

I'm far more interested in the intervals of time between activated abilities, something you have to choose to use.
#27 May 14 2010 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
LordFaramir wrote:
While haste caps at 50% for spells, it doesn't cap until 80% for auto-attack... which means you get some pretty insane speeds. And 70-80% isn't especially difficult for a DD to get (/sam or SAM/, equipment, haste (a mage), march (a bard) and samba (a dancer)). Just having some decent equipment and a mage around, which should be any endgame activity - a 2-handed DD will have about 40% haste. If you have enough bards in your linkshell (more than one) you can even spare one for the DD party, bringing them to 60%.

Well auto-attack speed isn't particularly relevant. I understand that in ffxi it builds tp faster and therefore allows you to use weaponskills more frequently, but ignoring the ws aspect it's just an automatic animation. Whether someone autoattacks once every second for 50 damage or once every 6 seconds for 300 damage doesn't change the number of choices they made per second.

I'm far more interested in the intervals of time between activated abilities, something you have to choose to use.
Well considering that FFXIV doesn't actually have an auto-attack, if they retain a similiar haste function to FFXI then you could assume speeds will drastically improve with buffs.

Anyway; I do realise that auto-attack has no choices involved other than selecting it and even at 50% haste, weapon-skills are still only every 20-30 seconds, but DD's such as DRK, BLU, PUP, SAM and THF involve constant choices.

Moreso BLU, PUP and DRK. On these you should literally constantly be thinking about what action to make. There is rarely a reason to simply sit back unless you don't particularly need to be pushing yourself, or you're out of MP.

If a choice every 5~10 seconds is too slow then I suppose FFXI is slow, but I like to think of it more as a medium - and these faster MMO's are just... freakin' fast.

Also, compared to many other MMO's where you mostly repeat a cycle of attacks over and over, is there really much of a difference in choice as compared to auto-attack / WS? I mean, how much 'choice' or 'tactics' is really going on in other MMO's? Is it possible that these activated attacks are just pseudo-choice? Much like how in playing FF13 you could individually select all of your activities to perform and the combat will be blisteringly fast... or you could just mash auto-attack and occasionally paradigm-shift for the same effect. At least for the first few chapters.

Edited, May 14th 2010 5:30pm by LordFaramir
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#28 May 14 2010 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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I've been made aware of a supposedly official response to concerns from alpha testers that says combat speed will be adjusted, and that a lot of the slowness is due to latency issues and server instability (which, while apparently greatly improved recently, is still being worked on). I hope I haven't opened the NDA box here, but since its a nuts and bolts thing, and not content-relevant...

Also, I would think as more skills become available through levels, combat will probably become more involved.
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#29 May 14 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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LordFaramir wrote:
Also, compared to many other MMO's where you mostly repeat a cycle of attacks over and over, is there really much of a difference in choice as compared to auto-attack / WS? I mean, how much 'choice' or 'tactics' is really going on in other MMO's? Is it possible that these activated attacks are just pseudo-choice?

Oh I agree. Even in the faster paced MMORPGs the choices are often obvious and you often get into ability rotations; I wouldn't say these games are ideal. Mostly speed is a cheap way to make a game more challenging. If you can't make the game require twice as much thought then you can try to compensate by allowing half as much time. But given two two games where in each I know my next 6 moves in advance, I'll take the game where those 6 moves are only a 10 second look into the future as opposed to a 30-60 second look.
#30 May 14 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
LordFaramir wrote:
Also, compared to many other MMO's where you mostly repeat a cycle of attacks over and over, is there really much of a difference in choice as compared to auto-attack / WS? I mean, how much 'choice' or 'tactics' is really going on in other MMO's? Is it possible that these activated attacks are just pseudo-choice?

Oh I agree. Even in the faster paced MMORPGs the choices are often obvious and you often get into ability rotations; I wouldn't say these games are ideal. Mostly speed is a cheap way to make a game more challenging. If you can't make the game require twice as much thought then you can try to compensate by allowing half as much time. But given two two games where in each I know my next 6 moves in advance, I'll take the game where those 6 moves are only a 10 second look into the future as opposed to a 30-60 second look.
Mmm I see what you mean but I kind of meant like; the choices you actually have to choose. In some mmo's you chose abilities quickly as compared to FFXI in which you have less of that 'choice', but what about the actual choice. The decisions where you cannot fall back on your standard rotation, in which you have to react and choose an action which you feel best meets the newly arisen predicament.

I can't really equate a time to this sort of event - but I'd imagine FFXI isn't vastly different to other MMO's when it comes to these 'real' choices.

If you get what I mean anyway, I'm finding it a little difficult to explain the concept. But I know that while I'm tanking as Ninja or Paladin in end-game situations I know that I've had far, far more of these 'actual choices' than in any other MMO I've played - heck, more than most other games that I've played. There is practically nothing standard about tanking unless you do the same fight with the same people every time - there are so many potential factors to change an event. This is why I've never found FFXI to be slow. Whenever I'm in a seriously activty, I'm constantly thinking. Unfortunately, I notice a fair few people who label it as slow and simply put; underperform in critical activites. You have quite a bit of choice in how fast you want to play a game - or at least the speed of your decisions.

Gosh this sure is going on a tangent here. I've been writing far, far too many essays recently ;;
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#31 May 14 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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LordFaramir wrote:
Mmm I see what you mean but I kind of meant like; the choices you actually have to choose. In some mmo's you chose abilities quickly as compared to FFXI in which you have less of that 'choice', but what about the actual choice. The decisions where you cannot fall back on your standard rotation, in which you have to react and choose an action which you feel best meets the newly arisen predicament.

I understand what you're saying and I largely agree. What I don't agree with is that this is a binary situation, that a decision is either a purely nontrivial choice or it is a purely trivial choice.

The ability rotations in some MMORPGs are your bread and butter attacks that nearly equivalent to auto-attacking. They are pretty obvious choices, but they're still above auto-attacking and they still give you more flexibility. Some of the rotations are interesting in that they have interdependent abilities and that missing on one changes the optimal rotation of abilities for the next few seconds, and you have nontrivial adjustments being made all the time to an otherwise trivial system. This is a rare case, but it happens.

All in all, ability rotations require slightly more thought than auto-attacking and in my opinion make the game more tactical (if only slightly), more interactive, and more fun.
LordFaramir wrote:
If you get what I mean anyway, I'm finding it a little difficult to explain the concept. But I know that while I'm tanking as Ninja or Paladin in end-game situations I know that I've had far, far more of these 'actual choices' than in any other MMO I've played - heck, more than most other games that I've played. There is practically nothing standard about tanking unless you do the same fight with the same people every time - there are so many potential factors to change an event.

Out of the three core roles in most MMORPGs--tanking, healing, and damage dealing--I'd say tanking often requires the most thought and effort on the part of the player, usually followed by healing and in a far last place by damage dealing.
#32 May 14 2010 at 11:50 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Out of the three core roles in most MMORPGs--tanking, healing, and damage dealing--I'd say tanking often requires the most thought and effort on the part of the player, usually followed by healing and in a far last place by damage dealing.
True this, but people often seem to forget the tanks or simply say "easy as long as you can count to 3" (ah if only it was this easy... so, so many bad tanks ;;).
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All in all, ability rotations require slightly more thought than auto-attacking and in my opinion make the game more tactical (if only slightly), more interactive, and more fun.
Fair enough. I can say I agree with this concept on paper, but no damage-dealing in any MMO has ever captivated me like FFXI's battle system has. *shrug* I just feel like I'm doing so much more in FFXI. Maybe its because I use my entire macro palette, and several equipment change scripts per job. Maybe it's the whole equip change thing in general, but I'm always busy. I do feel a little bored when I have no gear to swap.

So I suppose what I'm saying is that I agree that ability rotations should be increasing tactical choice and interactivity, but I'm also saying that even without those FFXI battle system still (more than) makes up for it in its other features, in my personal experiences.

Anyway, we've gone off on a tangent here since we know that FFXIV will be completely be using ability rotation, just that it seems slow now. And yeah, it's just latency issues - it'll speed up, guaranteed.
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pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

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#33 May 14 2010 at 11:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Anyway, we've gone off on a tangent here since we know that FFXIV will be completely be using ability rotation, just that it seems slow now. And yeah, it's just latency issues - it'll speed up, guaranteed.


Even without latency, it's still just a bit faster than XI.
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#34 May 15 2010 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
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#35 May 15 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, we've gone off on a tangent here since we know that FFXIV will be completely be using ability rotation, just that it seems slow now. And yeah, it's just latency issues - it'll speed up, guaranteed.


Even without latency, it's still just a bit faster than XI.


In The Alpha

But anyway, what I hope the combat boils down to is something similar to the way I played WHM in FFXI. Be ready for what you are getting yourself in to, know what you need to know about the enemies and what you can expect from then and act accordingly. If this is a new experience for you, be ready in general and test the waters as you reasonably can using information you gain on the move.
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#36 May 15 2010 at 2:43 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
In The Alpha


I don't think it would be wise to change it either.
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#37 May 15 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Also, because it's alpha we don't know that what we (may or may not) see is even optimal. If I remember correctly there's 3 bars that fill up that 'power up' your attack - that is, if you let them fill your next attack will be more powerful than if you just used it when you could. From everything I (may or may not) have seen, it looks like people are letting them fill up before *every* attack. Maybe that's not optimal, maybe it's just supposed to be an opening bonus and the damage increase in a real time battle situation doesn't offset the damage of hitting abilities as soon as they're off cooldown. The large ATB gauge seems to fill very quickly.


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#38 May 15 2010 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Based on the title of the thread alone, I have to ask if anyone has a copy of SE's actual mission statement. Or the misssion statement of the development team working on FFXIV, otherwise, any assumption as to what there mission is is pessumptious speculation and absolutely nothing more.
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#39 May 15 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
LordFaramir wrote:
Fair enough. I can say I agree with this concept on paper, but no damage-dealing in any MMO has ever captivated me like FFXI's battle system has. *shrug* I just feel like I'm doing so much more in FFXI.


Definitely. Making a sandwich, reading a book, browsing ****, etc. All perfectly viable activities while performing combat in FFXI!

Plain and simple: If FFXIV does not have a more active and faster paced combat, SE is going to miss their goal of making the game accessible to a wider audience. It has to at least somewhat resemble realistic combat pacing or people just aren't going to bother.
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#40 May 16 2010 at 12:18 AM Rating: Excellent
coglins wrote:
Based on the title of the thread alone, I have to ask if anyone has a copy of SE's actual mission statement. Or the misssion statement of the development team working on FFXIV, otherwise, any assumption as to what there mission is is pessumptious speculation and absolutely nothing more.


In fact, SE devs have stated lots of times in various interviews what they want XIV to be/play like.
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#41 May 16 2010 at 2:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
LordFaramir wrote:
Fair enough. I can say I agree with this concept on paper, but no damage-dealing in any MMO has ever captivated me like FFXI's battle system has. *shrug* I just feel like I'm doing so much more in FFXI.


Definitely. Making a sandwich, reading a book, browsing ****, etc. All perfectly viable activities while performing combat in FFXI!

Plain and simple: If FFXIV does not have a more active and faster paced combat, SE is going to miss their goal of making the game accessible to a wider audience. It has to at least somewhat resemble realistic combat pacing or people just aren't going to bother.
I love how I can practically write a mini-essay on why FFXI combat isn't as slow as everybody seems to think it is, without actually achieving anything :P

But I'm way too sick of this point of contention to bother arguing it anymore, Ima just link here and hope people read it with an open mind.
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drk = 80 sam = 76
pld = 79 thf= 80
nin = 80 drg = 75
mnk = 76 war = 52

Retired for now ^ ***** you Abyssea. FFXIV woo eh..
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#42 May 17 2010 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
I didn't say at all whether it was or was not slow, and I don't think anyone can judge for certain how it will be yet, considering it's still in Alpha. I'm just saying *IF* it is slow.


Oh, also maybe things have changed but during my 3 years playing FFXI, it seemed rather slow. Even when I first started, and it was my first MMO. There are occasions where it's not, and those points are really fun. I played a Samurai rather decently, and loved beginning and ending a skillchain for instance. Those occasions were great. It was the fact that there was so little inbetween. I actually liked tanking in FFXI as a ninja because it gave you things to do. (and because you felt like an invincible badass).

Edited, May 17th 2010 12:03am by digitalcraft
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#43 May 17 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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SE clearly payed this poor intern to shoulder their ideals under the guise of a bright-eyed ZAM member.

But in all seriousness, I do agree with you.

Especially that whole "peace out" bit, peace is so underrated.
#44 May 19 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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At least from my experience, FFXI combat was fairly fast paced if you were maximising your performance (gear switches, skill chains/, pulling, tanking/semi-tanking, optimising recast rotations, constant support buff/debuff, optimising MP usage/regeneration etc).

True, it was slow in the lower levels (because you had less abilities), but it certainly sped up, and could be very frantic depending on which job you were playing. I wouldn't say that the combat needs to be sped up, but rather the rate of progression in character growth.
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