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FFXIV and the Active Time Battle systemFollow

#1 May 17 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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As the Final Fantasy XIV alpha test chugs along, we have seen news steadily trickling in to give those of us outside the loop some idea of how Eorzea is shaping up. Along with general stability issues and basic controls, it has been reported that a main focus of the testing is on the battle system. This time around, Square Enix is taking a departure from the automated attacks of Final Fantasy XI and giving players a more hands-on control of the flow of combat.

Read the article here.
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#2 May 17 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Well i hope is good cause i enjoy FF11 battle system a lot, yes it was automatic but a lot of the times didn't feel like it cause you had some may controls and macros to deal with so it didn't feel so much automatic to me as it was. I hope FF14 has some really interesting battle system that is not hard to play with, FF13 was like watching a freaking movie, there was only one button to press lol it was X.
#3 May 17 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I have to say that I really enjoyed FFXI's style of battle. I think standard melee attacks being automated removes some of the tediousness of battle. Having to select every single sword strike is going to get repetitive and old quite quickly. I feel like an MMO should have a real time battle system. For me an ATB system would make it feel more like a console game, so I am kind of disappointed in this direction, but I will wait to see how things develop. Hopefully SE keeps their ears open to its fan base over the next couple of months.

Edited, May 17th 2010 11:19pm by DrCapricious
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#4 May 17 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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FF13 was like watching a freaking movie, there was only one button to press lol it was X.


I disagree, FFXIII wasn't like watching a movie although it did give you that option but if you cared about 5 starring battles, especially the hunt missions you couldn't just "press X". Anyway, I'm loving what I'm hearing about FFXIV so far. For me speed of battle comes second to strategy, as long as the system isn't too slow and boring and from what I've "heard" its not that slow and most of the time the slowdown has been server lag, or so it would seem - I have also "heard", on the contrary, of faster paced battles when server lag wasn't an issue. Anyway, as long as the game can keep me involved and thinking, I think its a lot more important than me running through hordes of monsters clicking 1 on my hot bar keys and chugging along...I was watching Aion vid earlier on youtube and I can't fathom for the life of me what people like about speed when there is no strategy involved. I'm all for speed, but not at the expense of strategy, Aion doesn't do this (it is however a very good looking game)...anyway, veering off topic, sorry...game looks awesome, finally we got something to read, thanks Elmer, give us as much news as you can please its getting boring waiting for more info!! :D
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#5 May 17 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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Agreed, thanks a lot for the update Elmer. I anxiously seek out info everyday and it is nice when someone has something valuable to contribute, so thanks for that = ) Anyway, I am sure the battle system will turn out to be great, it's still early in the game. I have plenty of faith in the SE development team.
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#6 May 17 2010 at 11:07 PM Rating: Good
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I think it is hard to tell right now how complex this system is since all the abilities aren't available and a group setting with everyone's abilities end-game has yet to be tested. Once everyone has say several "super abilities", which have a long cool-down, that first gauge will help determine your rotation with other members of the groups. Hopefully, if they do include skill chains and magic bursts (please yes, I haven't heard anything about this yet, that part of the system felt the most engaging with other players, etc) the gauges will help everyone with their rotations more so than just being overwhelming to look at. I do feel somewhat that the gauges might slow things down because things aren't "instant", but the positioning and "on-the-move" style of combat might balance out the thought of slow gauges by keeping your eyes on the action itself. The second and third gauges are positioned in the GUI where the player and battles are occurring, this will help keep us focused on the battlefield timing and I appreciate the thought put into that dynamic.

Depending on the number of abilities and cross-class abilities, it may get overwhelming to have to actually micro manage each cool-down if there are a lot of them. I also wonder if say, with a party of 6 during a big boss fight, the boss has a timed magic reflect shield. You have to cancel your already charged weapon skill ability, to say weapon skill chain with a group member; and essentially wait another 2 gauge lengths (because of cool-down and charge up right?) to do it over again? Thus throwing off skill rotation, or risking taking massive damage from magic reflect from a weapon skill chain? Sound's like the battles will have a lot of prior planning before going in, assuming this is the way it will go. Lot's of coordination within the party is going to be needed most likely which is welcomed, I just hope everyone is on some kind of ventrillo/teamspeak/in-game voice chat =)

#7 May 18 2010 at 1:24 AM Rating: Good
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I really enjoyed the FFXI battle system, and as long as their are skillchains and other things that require communication, I'll be happy regardless of the speed. Skillchains were one of my most favorite things in FFXI, and I was a little sad when it got to the point of people just laughing them off ("lol just burn it dummy, we don't need to do that" ...but it's fun, dangit). One of the things that bores me about WoW combat is everybody's just kind of doing their own thing, and somehow passing it off as teamwork, even though you frequently do entire dungeons without saying a word other than "hi" or "bye." Since they already mentioned they were bringing back skillchains, I'm sure the speed won't be to unbearable. I think they know that people won't be wanting to sit on their action gauges (or TP or whatever it is we end up waiting on) for to long.
#8 May 18 2010 at 3:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Just hope the FFXIV isn't too slow. A big difference with the earlier games is that when you were managing the command for one character, the bars for the other ones would fill up. In FFXIV you will have just one character, so the "waiting" part will be a lot more noticeable.

Another question that comes to my mind is: will spells still require casting time and/or will you have to wait longer for your bar to fill up after?
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#9 May 18 2010 at 7:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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The speed of the game has me a bit concerned, not so much for myself, but for the fact that it may not be well received by the general masses. I really want FFXIV to be super successful, and i see that potential, but my friends all complained about ffxi's slower game play, and if ffxiv's remains as slow as it looks, it won't pan out well.
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#10 May 18 2010 at 7:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Short version: Excellent for tough battles, adding a whole new layer of strategy and skill. For easy fights, however, it could be a royal pain in the posteria.

Long version:

I believe that hand-picking every action you perform will bring a nice level of added depth to battle in general. I don't have an issue with speed really, as long as it is not so slow as to seem cumbersome. I certainly hope that it will make hard battles a lot more tactical and engaging, and prevent some classes being a lot less fun to play than others (this was, in my opinion, a problem with FFXI. Certain jobs just didn't have as much work to do in party battles than others, and as such I never enjoyed playing those jobs as much).

That said, I do have one rather big reservation with an all hands-on combat system, and that is that it makes casual combat horribly onerous. I play a button heavy MMORPG - Guild Wars - where in combat the vast amount of damage you do is from actions you select by hitting number keys or clicking icons on the skill bar. This makes strategy very important, but only if you're fighting something difficult. If you are ripping through fodder while farming, or just travelling around it quickly gets very annoying and repetative.

During the time I have to concentrate on button mashing actions in a fight, I can't chat to my friends on the game, or run to the front door, or pick up the phone when it rings, or even divert the majority of my attention to something else for a few minutes unless I'm happy to come back to a corpse (always a risk, true, but a greatly reduced risk when I know that my character will carry on fighting to the minimum of their abilites while I can't attend to them).

This is only an argument that applies to solo casual play, true, but for me that is a significant portion of my online time on FFXI, and it will be an important requirement for me on FFXIV too.

I hoping that there will be an option to select a default repeated action, or perhaps a "stance" that you stay in until you select a different action, even if the damage over time for that stance is far less than my output would be if I were picking actions one by one (so it is only effective against easy targets).

Auto attacking is far and above more preferable to me than hitting the same button again and again and again, which is exactly what fights against easy mobs are likely to end up turning into (as strategy against such mobs would be irrelevant).

The removal of auto-attack from FFXIV is one of the few worries I have about the game, but I remain hopeful that my reservations about it will prove unfounded. If they don't, I guess I'll end up spending my casual play time back on FFXI, with FFXIV running on a different screen as a glorified chat engine >< That would be a shame.

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#11 May 18 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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I liked FFXI, but I also liked FFVI, so I'm going to keep an open mind. Like the article says, battles seem slow on the outset, but this could be due to the learning curve and could be fixed from tweaks by SE. Here's hoping!
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#12 May 18 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually, I found the FFXI battle system to be the reason I stopped playing the game. This is just a list of the serious faults in their battle system.

Target switching: This is a must for accidents. Sure it was okay if the two targets were in your line of sight but if anything were to sneak up behind you it would take you out of battle stance and you would have to wait several seconds before you could auto attack again.

Spell Casting: Being interrupted while casting a spell was annoying at best. It was impossible to cast if you had more then one mob attacking you at alternate timings.

Stop and go sheathing: This is a minor detail, but when I'm running for my life and I have JUST enough of a lead on the mob that I might actually get away, only to STOP to put away my weapon once past autobattle range, was beyond infuriating.

Spell variety useless: The only spell you use is the latest one you bought. They need to release the entire elemental tier of spells at the same level. Making SOME strategy in using spells instead of "Stone II" 5 times then rest no matter what weakness of mob you're fighting.

Speed: Yes, yes. This has been brought up over and over again. I bring it up at least once more. In todays fast paced society I do NOT enjoy waiting 5 seconds inbetween each weapon swing and each mob I fight is a 5 minute fiasco. Lenghty battles are meant for RAID content. Not solo content.

I seriously hope they rectify these issues in this game. It's just a few examples of poor planning and poor programming.
#13 May 18 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Perhaps they should implement an auto-attack button. Kinda of like how you could press the auto-run button and your character will keep running forever. Why not just press a button and your character will just repeat the last command indefinitely. You can press the button again to toggle it on and off. Don't see how that would hurt anyone.
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#14 May 18 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
EpedemicOptikz wrote:
Perhaps they should implement an auto-attack button. Kinda of like how you could press the auto-run button and your character will keep running forever. Why not just press a button and your character will just repeat the last command indefinitely. You can press the button again to toggle it on and off. Don't see how that would hurt anyone.


I'm not sure why there seems to be such an aversion to actually taking part in combat. Everything has to be automated or stackable or queueable or...whatever. It's not an RTS.
#15 May 18 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
I'm not sure why there seems to be such an aversion to actually taking part in combat. Everything has to be automated or stackable or queueable or...whatever. It's not an RTS.


Well, I can think of two reasons for this. One, being the biggest for me personally, is the ability to get up mid fight and walk away mid fight for something. You know when you come back the mob will be dead. You're not in good shape but the fight will still happen without you needing to be there every available second. I'm sure people will not be happy with reason one so in reason two it will be more clear. My second reason is for "random disconnects". This is just a part of online games. You're GOING to disconnect at one time or another. I personally enjoy logging back in with a dead mob(and me in bad shape) as opposed to my dead body and a full health mob walking on my corpse.
#16 May 18 2010 at 2:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
EpedemicOptikz wrote:
Perhaps they should implement an auto-attack button. Kinda of like how you could press the auto-run button and your character will keep running forever. Why not just press a button and your character will just repeat the last command indefinitely. You can press the button again to toggle it on and off. Don't see how that would hurt anyone.


I'm not sure why there seems to be such an aversion to actually taking part in combat. Everything has to be automated or stackable or queueable or...whatever. It's not an RTS.


the point is that, what difference would it make to leave auto-attack on for 5 attacks, or attacking 5 times by pressing the enter key or the 1 key or w/e is the attack button.

convenience. typing a long message to a friend while your character attacks instead of just selecting attack, typing 1/4th of the message, selecting attack, typing the next 1/4th, ..., and so on so your character doesn't stand there like a statue while it's getting pummeled. convenience that just in case you need to answer the phone, take a ****, check out a website really quick, anything really. I don't see why anyone would be against having an auto-attack toggle.
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#17 May 18 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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convenience that just in case you need to answer the phone, take a ****, check out a website really quick, anything really. I don't see why anyone would be against having an auto-attack toggle.


As far as the 'check a website real quick' part of this argument goes;

It's kind of in the same category as going to watch TV while waiting for a PT invite in XI.
There's nothing wrong with it on the player's end of things, but it highlights a major failing on the part of the developer. If you feel the need to entertain yourself, while in the process of entertaining yourself, somebody along the line has done you a grave disservice.

As far as the little life activities go;

You can just call for a break if your in a group, or take a moment between battles if your not. You don't think the phone rings in a healer's house? Tanks don't get a case of the munchies? We've managed this for years now without starving to death at our computers, I promise you'll be just fine :)

Edited, May 18th 2010 5:16pm by Zemzelette
#18 May 18 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
snieh wrote:
Well, I can think of two reasons for this. One, being the biggest for me personally, is the ability to get up mid fight and walk away mid fight for something. You know when you come back the mob will be dead. You're not in good shape but the fight will still happen without you needing to be there every available second. I'm sure people will not be happy with reason one so in reason two it will be more clear. My second reason is for "random disconnects". This is just a part of online games. You're GOING to disconnect at one time or another. I personally enjoy logging back in with a dead mob(and me in bad shape) as opposed to my dead body and a full health mob walking on my corpse.


EpidemicOptikz wrote:
the point is that, what difference would it make to leave auto-attack on for 5 attacks, or attacking 5 times by pressing the enter key or the 1 key or w/e is the attack button.

convenience. typing a long message to a friend while your character attacks instead of just selecting attack, typing 1/4th of the message, selecting attack, typing the next 1/4th, ..., and so on so your character doesn't stand there like a statue while it's getting pummeled. convenience that just in case you need to answer the phone, take a ****, check out a website really quick, anything really. I don't see why anyone would be against having an auto-attack toggle.


Lemme put it to both of you this way. Play in the manner that suits you. It's your subscription, your time, etc. Keep in mind, however, that there are people like me who prefer that every person in a group be actively participating and not just coasting along with an occasional glance at the screen or listening for the sound of a dead mob to focus their attention where I would have expected it to be when they agreed to join the party. And there are ways for pricks like me, expecially a tanking prick, to find out if you're actually being a team player or just riding the coattails of any schlub that will take you. And lastly, there are pricks especially like me who will remove you from a group in a heartbeat despite any later protests, objections, or other adolescent QQ that starts with or could be construed as, "WTF?!?!"

I don't mind occasional distractions...phone, kids, spouse, whatever. I do resent carrying people. As long as your motivations for stacking commands is legitimate and demonstrates the appropriate level or respect to your team, that's fine. It won't always be like that, however, which is why I disagree with the concept. It's not really a necessary feature. Especially if the pcase of combat doesn't pick up relative to what's going on right now.
#19 May 18 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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... and ever so suddenly the spell "haste" gains a new level of usefullness.

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#20 May 18 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not really looking forward to an Active Battle system mainly because of the social detriment.

Part of getting to know the members of your party is talking to them.
Unfortunately if I'm spending all my time in party chaining attacks and twitch tapping I'm not able to chat with anyone. Soloing to Endgame without talking to anyone isn't really any different than partying to endgame without talking to anyone. If the battle system makes it impossible for me to chat humorously with friends any time I'm leveling then I might have a problem with it.
#21 May 18 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Default
So this will mean melee attacks will not automatic i guess.

Doesn't FFXI already have this?

Spells aren't automatic of course and throwing/shooting have to be commanded each time.

What i don't get is how melee attach have to be.
It should of been optional because its gonna feel like playing a slower SAM on all/most melee jobs.

I can see the window now spamming messages about "You can't attack target, please wait" or something like that.

Ive heard from alpha testers that the battle system is very boring but you'll never know till the final release.
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#22 May 19 2010 at 12:56 AM Rating: Decent
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It's perfect the way it is, servers just need better stability so it doesn't seem to laggy/slow. Its way faster, more intuitive and funner than FFXIs system. Definite step in the right direction.
#23 May 19 2010 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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I have to say I rather love the idea of no auto-attack and an ATB guage. See I have played many mmorpgs starting with Ultima and ending with FFXI with a few others like Everquest and Asheron's Call in between. Now as much as I liked some of the other mmos, and believe me I did (especially AC), I always felt something was lost with the inclusion of a real-time battle system.

FFXI was the mmo to make it clear to me what that was. Without some sort of system to slow down the gameplay, every mmo on the market just feels like glorified FPS that just happens to have some rpg elements. Now FFXI did not get it totally right, but they attempted too with their slower battle system. It gave me the sense(to a degree) that it was more strategic, by giving me far more time to think out my actions(similar to turn-based). I could then make better choices, rather than feeling rushed to activate whatever ability just happened to become available after cooldown.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that FFXIV be turn-based. However, I do like the idea of a semi-real-time battle system, and this ATB gauge is just the ticket. And I am probably gonna hurt some people's feelings when I say that yes I want a slightly slow battle system, with more strategic elements, and a focus on team effort. If there is enough going on in the battlefield, then a slightly slowed down battle system won't seem that slow. I really want FFXIV to be like this, because I have been desperately searching for an MMO to fill the void that FFXI left behind, and so far there are none like it. Every single mmo I have tried since I left FFXI has two major problems: they all prodominantly focus on PvP, with no EPIC PvE (read PvE that matters), and they all are twitchy and seem to be based on reflex and hotbar bashing (cooldown timers are way too short) more than math and strategy. Basically here is my rule of thumb: In any mmorpg if by skill you mean action-oriented reflexes and split-second timing, then this is not an rpg to me. I call this an action game. In any mmorpg If by skill you mean expert knowledge of your role, the roles of others, and the enemy, then I could accept this as an rpg.

Some will hate me for this, and some will love me for this. Some will say I am wrong. All I can say is this is my opinion, there is no right or wrong to it. I used to love the real-time battle systems, but I have slowly come to resent them. I do sincerely hope that SE continues with the way the battle system works currently. I think it would be a shame for it to be like all other mmorpgs battle systems. However, what will be will be. And If SE chooses to go the popular way, then I guess I'll just go pout about it for a day or two and then get over it and go back to FFXI.

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#24 May 19 2010 at 1:59 AM Rating: Good
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Zemzelette wrote:

As far as the 'check a website real quick' part of this argument goes;

It's kind of in the same category as going to watch TV while waiting for a PT invite in XI.
There's nothing wrong with it on the player's end of things, but it highlights a major failing on the part of the developer. If you feel the need to entertain yourself, while in the process of entertaining yourself, somebody along the line has done you a grave disservice.

As far as the little life activities go;

You can just call for a break if your in a group, or take a moment between battles if your not. You don't think the phone rings in a healer's house? Tanks don't get a case of the munchies? We've managed this for years now without starving to death at our computers, I promise you'll be just fine :)

Edited, May 18th 2010 5:16pm by Zemzelette


I'm sure we all know that the game will not require your full undivided attention at all times. Some people just afk the entire time, some people afk half the time but doesn't leave their party hanging, and some people just concentrate on the game 100% because they have nothing else to do yet they're just staring at a screen watching animations occur.

If people are in a party, and SE says the game requires a great deal of strategy and it's action packed where there is many vs many, then we wouldn't need an auto-attack. But for solo play, whose the auto-attack going to hurt but yourself? Maybe if SE can make the game in a way that we really wouldn't need an auto-attack, then no one would complain about it.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Lemme put it to both of you this way. Play in the manner that suits you. It's your subscription, your time, etc. Keep in mind, however, that there are people like me who prefer that every person in a group be actively participating and not just coasting along with an occasional glance at the screen or listening for the sound of a dead mob to focus their attention where I would have expected it to be when they agreed to join the party. And there are ways for pricks like me, expecially a tanking prick, to find out if you're actually being a team player or just riding the coattails of any schlub that will take you. And lastly, there are pricks especially like me who will remove you from a group in a heartbeat despite any later protests, objections, or other adolescent QQ that starts with or could be construed as, "WTF?!?!"

I don't mind occasional distractions...phone, kids, spouse, whatever. I do resent carrying people. As long as your motivations for stacking commands is legitimate and demonstrates the appropriate level or respect to your team, that's fine. It won't always be like that, however, which is why I disagree with the concept. It's not really a necessary feature. Especially if the pcase of combat doesn't pick up relative to what's going on right now.


It seems you treat the game like a job rather than a game. I play the game to have fun, not work like it's a job. I could care less what a person does in a party, as long as they do their job, and by job, I mean the function of their class. There are some things that just need to be done, and that's it. If the white mage doesn't give the tanking ninja haste, then the white mage isn't doing his/her job. If people do their job, let them take small afk breaks during fights all they want. Not everyone wants to take a break when someone else takes a break, and some people might even leave during this time since they could be partying with a party that doesn't take breaks.

Would you rather someone just go afk and stand there doing nothing, or someone go afk and actually hit the mob and do damage? It's like killing someone, even if you ban guns, it won't stop the killing. Sure, it's not a necessary feature but a convenient one and unless this game is attention demanding, I'd be pretty bored of just tapping the enter key all day. Again though, if I'm using a different skill every time my turn is up, then I really can't complain. Of course though, to rememdy this problem for people like you, just disable the auto-attack function when partied with someone.
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#25 May 19 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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I could care less what a person does in a party, as long as they do their job, and by job, I mean the function of their class. There are some things that just need to be done, and that's it.


That's actually exactly what he was saying...some people do tend to take off mid party thinking no one may notice, and that's what Arelius was saying he doesn't like.
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#26 May 19 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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I don't want it to be like FF11 that for sure, playing a melee in 11 was boring as ****.

I like that FF14 has no auto attack but I don't think it should be ATB based, they should try and come up with a system with different cooldowns and recast timers.

That way players would have freedom on how they use their skills but will still be required to use them carefully depending on the recast time.
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#27 May 19 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
EpedemicOptikz wrote:
It seems you treat the game like a job rather than a game. I play the game to have fun, not work like it's a job. I could care less what a person does in a party, as long as they do their job, and by job, I mean the function of their class. There are some things that just need to be done, and that's it. If the white mage doesn't give the tanking ninja haste, then the white mage isn't doing his/her job. If people do their job, let them take small afk breaks during fights all they want. Not everyone wants to take a break when someone else takes a break, and some people might even leave during this time since they could be partying with a party that doesn't take breaks.


I treat it like a game but I also make a point of treating groups like any other team. That entails a certain measure of respect for the people in the group to include such things as being available to make adjustments on the fly in case something goes wrong. That's not something you can do when you're in the other room pouring a soda or with your neck craned watching TV.

Quote:
Would you rather someone just go afk and stand there doing nothing, or someone go afk and actually hit the mob and do damage? It's like killing someone, even if you ban guns, it won't stop the killing. Sure, it's not a necessary feature but a convenient one and unless this game is attention demanding, I'd be pretty bored of just tapping the enter key all day. Again though, if I'm using a different skill every time my turn is up, then I really can't complain. Of course though, to rememdy this problem for people like you, just disable the auto-attack function when partied with someone.


I would rather people not join a group if they can't devote the necessary attention to their role in the first place. It's not a, "Hey, I've gotta go afk...again...what would you rather I do?" scenario. It's a, "Hey, you've gone afk...again...maybe we'd be better off with someone who can sit still for longer than 15 minutes and devote the necessary attention to the task at hand."
#28 May 19 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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I am a little worried about the battle system's "waiting around" aspect. In a year or two I can see requirements for joining parties and events being a certain amount of Haste rating and that might cause some newer folks to get excluded.

There is some level of gear requirement in XI but for the most part people aren't getting excluded from things because they have a headlong belt as opposed to a swift belt. The difference seems like it will end up being more pronounced in a system where everyone is sitting around doing nothing at all while waiting for an action bar to fill up. Right now at least we are auto-attacking. I don't think that taking out the auto-attacking aspect is going to be the best way to go.

I get where people are coming from with wanting a slower battle system, but slower doesn't necessarily mean there is any more math or strategy involved than faster systems. I tend to think that faster systems make you think on your feet and you still have to have the same level of knowledge regarding what your abilities do and how they might affect the tide of battle - slower battles are just more forgiving.
#29 May 19 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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If people are in a party, and SE says the game requires a great deal of strategy and it's action packed where there is many vs many, then we wouldn't need an auto-attack. But for solo play, whose the auto-attack going to hurt but yourself? Maybe if SE can make the game in a way that we really wouldn't need an auto-attack, then no one would complain about it
.

Essentially that's what I'm going for, yes. If Squeenix is going to beat their own drum to the tune of 'strategic' and 'cerebral', they probably shouldn't have a battle system that makes people feel like they want to repeat the same action over and over again.

There's no sin in you getting bored with something that's boring, there's sin in the developer making it that way in the first place.


Quote:

There is some level of gear requirement in XI but for the most part people aren't getting excluded from things because they have a headlong belt as opposed to a swift belt. The difference seems like it will end up being more pronounced in a system where everyone is sitting around doing nothing at all while waiting for an action bar to fill up. Right now at least we are auto-attacking. I don't think that taking out the auto-attacking aspect is going to be the best way to go.


That depends on whether or not it feels like 'nothing at all'.
Your character can be doing nothing, but you personally can be very busy. They've put this space of time for you to mentally prepare your next action, how much that feels like wasted time directly relates to how much a battle requires your thought.

This is one of those things you'll only ever be able to determine from a first hand experience.
It's not like you can hear people's thoughts through screenshots and videos :3








Edited, May 19th 2010 2:10pm by Zemzelette
#30 May 19 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gii wrote:
Short version: Excellent for tough battles, adding a whole new layer of strategy and skill. For easy fights, however, it could be a royal pain in the posteria.


I'm in agreement with Gii on this one. When I'm in a party, or taking part in a quest, my attention is centered on the game. During these times, the idea of no auto-attack seems appropriate. It'll keep me active, and make combat more engaging.

I'm mildly apprehensive about how it'll affect farming, however. I'd like to be able to take it easy when farming in FFXIV...listen to music, check websites, talk to people in-game and out, etc. etc. As a ranger in FFXI, I had to press a button every single time I wanted to use a ranged attack on a mob, which became very tedious when farming. But hey, if they lower the need for farming in FFXIV, that'd resolve the problem too. My ranger spent roughly 9 hours farming to every 1 hour of exp parties.

Perhaps they could add an auto-attack toggle, and when it is active, you do a bit less damage than you would when you're pressing "attack" manually? That way you would be discouraged from using it within a party, but when farming, you could toggle it if your attention was occupied with something else for a bit? I could go for something like that.

It's tough for me to really understand how it'll affect FFXIV without getting my hands on the game. I don't know how often I'll be attacking, compared to using other skills/macros and such. As a general rule though, I think I like my MMORPG's to be heavier on macro strategy, and light on the twitch/micro stuff. That's the kind of balance I'd like to see in FFXIV, and I don't know if no auto-attack gels with it. We'll see soon enough.

Edited, May 19th 2010 3:00pm by Eske
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#31 May 19 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske wrote:
farming

I was hoping we would kill off this abomination by 2010 2011. FFXIV is as good a place as any to start.

Edit: Fiscal Year--tee hee hee.

Edited, May 19th 2010 5:37pm by Almalexia
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#32 May 19 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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Almalexia wrote:
Eske wrote:
farming

I was hoping we would kill off this abomination by 2010 2011. FFXIV is as good a place as any to start.


Fingers crossed, man. Fingers crossed.
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#33 May 19 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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I don’t really know what to think of the ATB system. On the one hand, it gives the impression that players will really have to focus on coordinating their attacks and working as a team to succeed in any battle; a theme that basically flew out the window with the advent of Mana/TP-burn parties in FFXI. On the other hand, requiring that each and every standard melee-attack be selected/queued sounds incredibly tedious, especially when one considers how much basic melee factored in to FFXI (Anyone with a level 75 character has probably swung their sword/axe/whatever a few thousand times without realizing it).

I suppose the advantage is that the ATB will allow the player to work with their melee attacks, rather than against them as was the case in FFXI. Take Thief as an example: whenever the player wished to do SATA, they’d either turn away from the mob or disengage entirely to ensure that the auto-attack didn’t make a waste of their job abilities. It’s like saying “Oh hang on there, monster, I need to get ready to stab you in the back.” With ATB, the player will have more fluid control of how their end of the battle plays out.

Edited, May 19th 2010 7:49pm by Kaaraa
#34 May 23 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I just made a post in another thread about my concerns about the battle system and how I felt that menu, gauge, and meter based combat would be old hat by now. Tho I wouldn't have felt this way had I not played a very well designed action adventure game which reshaped my whole perspective and standards of what we should expect for fantasy and/or adventure driven games. Menu driven combat was necessary for much older platforms but these days its hard for me to see them as anything but lazy or unimaginative game design practices. Its hard to get into this subject with those who prefer these traditional elements who feel its the only way to assure that RPGs remain "strategical" or "in-depth".

I find it ironic since this genre is supposed to cater those with indulgent imaginations despite how unimaginative and stagnant the combat systems in these game have gotten. I see the reliance on meters and gauges and command inputs as a crutch that largely Japanese developers have trouble getting away from. I personally blame their habit of pretty special effects they use for attacks and spells, I think SE values the effects more than the actual combat itself. Remember how cinematic heavy a lot of SEs RPGs are. They need to put less emphasis on the spectacles since they lose their charm when they become a annoying and monotonous.

This was especially bad for mages, the cure locking was a pain, and the long recast times of AMs which I'd be convinced exists for the sake of preserving the spectacle of the graphical effects.
#35 May 23 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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If they're going to make the battle system less automated by having us click the attack button for every swing I hope we have the option to swing whenever we want with a full bar being max potential damage and an immediate attack with very little progress in the bar would be a weak attack. I always hated waiting five or six seconds to swing my greatsword just to finish off 1 hp left on the mob. You remember those early days killing rabbits with two full swings, when 1.2 swings would do the job. I'm all for it.
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#36 May 23 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really mind the fact that there is no auto-attack. Since in most games they generally accounted for very little. But other than that. The ATB gauge is pretty much just a variant on what other games call a global Cool Down. So I'm not following what people are getting agitated about. You couldn't execute attacks while AFK in any game I know about =/.
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#37 May 24 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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I like the sounds of the system personaly.

I may take a hit for this but I do hope it's generalised enough so as to not realy say anything... hehe
I have looked at some of the recint vids and it looks like the system is faster than the people so long as there is no lag. I don't think people need to worry about it being so slow.

Edit: if it is an issue let me know, mods, and I'll comit sepuku after cleaning the post.

Edited, May 24th 2010 1:30pm by zurinadrg
#38 May 24 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Edit: if it is an issue let me know, mods, and I'll comit sepuku after cleaning the post.


Take some pics or it didn't happen ;o
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#39 May 24 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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Take some pics or it didn't happen ;o


but.. but I have the shirt on order *pout* they ran out so it's on back order...

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#40 May 24 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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That's pretty funny. I love the dotted line :)
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#41 May 26 2010 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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All I want to know is, WIll the battle system be complicated enough that being not sober will make a major difference?
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