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No Paladin? Crowd Control Mechanics, DDO SimilairitiesFollow

#1 May 25 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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So I guess that FFXIV is going to take a page out of DDO's book and finally have an ability in which a Paladin or Tank in general will be able to build hate towards a group of enemies instead of just one target like Provoke is to Paladin. After playing DDO for a little while as a Paladin, Intimidate is definitely an interesting ability in that game. It basically generates hate on any given targets within a certain range of you.

I am curious if FFXIV is going to go down that path too, it would be kind of neat. However in DDO that game falls short of a few things regarding Hate. Hate is built upon purely DPS in DDO. Healing party members will not generate anything, self buffs will not generate any hate etc. This is where I feel that FFXI is the strongest when it comes to other hate systems like in WoW/DDO/etc.

I guess for those DPS people who like to do damage and see big numbers it is fine. I come from the Paladin who like to cast helpful defensive buffs for the entire party, toss a cure here and there when needed; and also be able to go toe to toe with a big badass monster and do damage and be able to tank with a pure focus on defense.

It seems regardless of what game you play, you just don't have the tools to be a Brick Wall, keep hate on a monster when so many game developers are going the Pure DPS route making the Paladin class outdated. I am really going to miss the Paladin class when FFXIV comes out. Sure they might have the DPS style tank.... but I don't like that style.

Anyone else going to miss the Brick Wall tanking? Granted FFXI and other MMOs really didn't give Paladin a really good chance to have abilities that make it shine and keep hate off of Pure DPS roles doing massive damage. Maybe I will just play FFXI til the day it dies. Cause if DDO can't even get Paladins right... lost cause.

Not to mention in DDO you can't even be a Pure Paladin because Intimidate isn't even a class skill and you have to multiclass Fighter or Rogue. Granted in FFXI you have to sub Warrior... which I never understood. How come so many games/MMOs totally make Paladin classes wrong.

I hate to say this but FF 13 got the tank class right! <3 Sentinel
#2 May 25 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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I have a feeling FFXIV would have to implement some kind of group hate provoke. A lot of the structure that has been released states that many enemies will travel in "packs".

I agree that FFXIII and sentinel did things right, and I would like to see some skills carried over for a tank structure in FFXIV.
#3 May 25 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
Gladiators are confirmed to have at least one AoE threat tool.
#4 May 25 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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SleeplessMickey wrote:
I have a feeling FFXIV would have to implement some kind of group hate provoke. A lot of the structure that has been released states that many enemies will travel in "packs".




From what I have seen from the official site, all offensive and cure spells are AoE. I wonder what that reveals about combat in FFXIV? I am very interested for SE to drop us some more details. So far the combat system seems a bit slow and lackluster, hopefully there is much more in store. E3 next month, right?
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#5 May 25 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Excenmille wrote:
So I guess that FFXIV is going to take a page out of DDO's book and finally have an ability in which a Paladin or Tank in general will be able to build hate towards a group of enemies instead of just one target like Provoke is to Paladin.

Not to nit pick, but this wasn't something DDO originated. I know at least CoH and WoW had aoe tanking two years prior, and I'm sure it was around long before. FFXI is fairly unique for focusing so much on single target tanking.
Excenmille wrote:
Hate is built upon purely DPS in DDO. Healing party members will not generate anything, self buffs will not generate any hate etc. This is where I feel that FFXI is the strongest when it comes to other hate systems like in WoW/DDO/etc.

In WoW, pretty much every action builds hate. It's fairly similar to FFXI in this respect and nothing like DDO.
Excenmille wrote:
Anyone else going to miss the Brick Wall tanking?

We don't know that FFXIV won't have it. Using the gladiator class and borrowing some healing skills from the conjurer it might be possible that a tanking style similar to paladins evolves. I think it would be a loss to not have a variety of tanking methods, and I'd rather have at least one brick wall tank than none.
Excenmille wrote:
How come so many games/MMOs totally make Paladin classes wrong.

I think that many games have a clear vision for the RP and fluff of a paladin class, but few have a clear vision for how it works in gameplay. Rogues/Thieves/Burglars almost always involve some type of teamwork dependency (to either get behind an enemy or to use their special skills) and involve opportunistic tactics. They are usually DPS with some type of support/control. In most every MMORPG it's clear what they do.

Paladins are usually tanks, but how they tank and what else they do tends to vary greatly. No one seems to know just how they should play.

Edited, May 25th 2010 9:19pm by Allegory
#6 May 25 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
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I was never a good Paladin in FFXI. I guess it comes from using DD classes first, then looking at the sad numbers my dmg did as a Paladin I wasn't ever happy. That being said, I had a HUGE amount of respect for Paladins late in the game. If given the choice I would have chosen a Paladin tank over a Ninja tank every time.

I'm excited to see what the tanks are like in FFXIV, and I think that I'll give tanking a try in the new game.... After I get my Lancer right.

Here is a quick "thanks!" to all the pro tanks out there!
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#7 May 25 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Sure they might have the DPS style tank.... but I don't like that style.

Why?

Please do not respond if your reasons include one or more of the following:

1) Role-playing
2) Nostalgia
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#8 May 25 2010 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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From my understanding (and also complete confusion) the armory system to this game SHOULD allow you to make almost any class a tank class...well maybe, since we don't have information on armor and if any other class can equip a shield but still the possibilities 'should' be limitless.

Like, in theory, you should be able to be a Thaumaturge, take a good portion of a Pugilist's abilities and maybe the Conjurer skill 'Trance Chant' to use along with the Thaumaturge's ability 'Paradigm Shift' to make a wider AoE spell and be a evasive mage tank that can blast multiple mobs to gain hate.

Or just be a Marauder. They have that ability to make like...every attack AoE along with the 'Bloodbath' ability to get HP back from attacks. Now that sounds like a hate grabbing hit everyone kind of tank (though a Marauder in RP sounds like the opposite of a Paladin)
#9 May 25 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Like, in theory, you should be able to be a Thaumaturge...


While this may be true, the player base is going to want a more optimal build. As soon as we figure out how to play, there will be only a few select builds that the player base considers "good". If you're not playing one of those, you're unlikely to get many party invites.
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#10 May 25 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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DrCapricious wrote:
From what I have seen from the official site, all offensive and cure spells are AoE. I wonder what that reveals about combat in FFXIV? I am very interested for SE to drop us some more details. So far the combat system seems a bit slow and lackluster, hopefully there is much more in store. E3 next month, right?


in Crystal Chronicles, all spells were AoE as well -- anything that wandered into the effect while it was going off got damaged. the higher the spell level, the wider the AoE. perhaps that won't be the case in XIV, but just because a spell technically affects an area doesn't mean all combat will involve WoW-style AoE pulls. it's more likely that all spells simply have a small, default, radius and any extra mobs you can pack in there are a bonus.

Caia wrote:
[...]the player base is going to want a more optimal build. As soon as we figure out how to play, there will be only a few select builds that the player base considers "good". If you're not playing one of those, you're unlikely to get many party invites.


i really really wish people wouldn't say stupid things like that. you have no idea what the players in this game will think a few years from now, it'd be nice if we didn't have to start out in FFXI all over again just because people expect XIV to be identical.

Excenmille wrote:
[...]


in a way, it could be argued that the entire point of an aggro system and tank threat management is to make it challenging. it kind of seems a little too easy that a tank can press a button and "voila!" all hate management is done. limiting the maximum targets affected by hate abilities (especially with spells and such being AoE apparently by default) is one way of adding gameplay to tanks outside of mere damage.

crowd control having to work around the AoE black magics etc. would also add an element of tactics that would be nice to see. who knows what the state of crowd control will be in XIV?

i think it'd also be nice to see the mobs' AI differentiated between specific mobs. that is, it would be very dynamic to see some monsters prefer to attack certain kinds of players (casters first or whatever other class they really hate) beyond whatever hate-creating abilities they are being affected by. if tanks have to figure out which monster is going to really hate your healer, it'll definitely keep them on their toes with something to do!
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#11 May 25 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sure they might have the DPS style tank.... but I don't like that style.

Why?

Please do not respond if your reasons include one or more of the following:

1) Role-playing
2) Nostalgia



Making tanking a largely damage dealing role is part of larger movement to try to attract players to the less populated branches of the holy trinity by adding elements of the most popular one to it.

It yields interesting results, at least aesthetically. I've never seen so many healing/support classes play into the
Healing Shiv trope as I have in the past 5 years or so. And it does accomplish what it sets out to do, people are genuinely swayed by damage dealing capabilities and 'badass' aesthetics.

Unfortunately.
Some games handle this poorly. In an effort to give you more time to enact your damage dealing capabilities the actual mechanical process of tanking and healing is made to be trivially easy. So quite a few career healers/tanks have come to associate this idea with the loss of what challenge and depth there was in the mechanics they enjoy, for the addition of mechanics they were never particularly interested in in the first place.



Edited, May 25th 2010 11:48pm by Zemzelette
#12 May 25 2010 at 9:33 PM Rating: Good
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While this may be true, the player base is going to want a more optimal build. As soon as we figure out how to play, there will be only a few select builds that the player base considers "good". If you're not playing one of those, you're unlikely to get many party invites.




Thats fine, let alot of the general public be assuming morons who jump on the bandwagon of assumption. The proof is in the doing. If someone is looking to group and they say they can tank, I say give them a shot.

As far as the paladin talk goes, you make one. level your maurader and conjurers white/healing abilities and put them on your tool bar and role on

Edited, May 25th 2010 11:34pm by coglins
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#13 May 25 2010 at 10:04 PM Rating: Default
coglins wrote:
Thats fine, let alot of the general public be assuming morons who jump on the bandwagon of assumption. The proof is in the doing. If someone is looking to group and they say they can tank, I say give them a shot.

As far as the paladin talk goes, you make one. level your maurader and conjurers white/healing abilities and put them on your tool bar and role on


Pause for a moment and ask yourself if class and abilities are the only things that define whether or not a particular character is suited to tanking effectively. If you think long and hard, you'll come up with the missing link to your delightful theory of snowflakes and buttersheep.

Lemme know what you come up with. I believe in you.
#14 May 25 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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i really really wish people wouldn't say stupid things like that. you have no idea what the players in this game will think a few years from now, it'd be nice if we didn't have to start out in FFXI all over again just because people expect XIV to be identical.


Its not stupid, its human nature. People look to find the optimal way to do X. In this case X is measured in exp/hr. And this doesn't just happen in FFXI. WoW has it, Eve has it, DDO has it. In fact, EVERY game has it to some degree or another.

Just because you think the sky being blue is "stupid" doesn't mean the sky isn't blue. :)

Quote:
Thats fine, let alot of the general public be assuming morons who jump on the bandwagon of assumption. The proof is in the doing. If someone is looking to group and they say they can tank, I say give them a shot.


Sure, why not? And if it fails horribly it might just be an exception. But if the same setup fails over and over again, continuing to use it is silly at the very least.

Optimization: Its how you get from here to there quickly. Its why we use cars instead of horses. Its why we use computers instead of paper and pencil to do complex math problems.
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#15 May 25 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pause for a moment and ask yourself if class and abilities are the only things that define whether or not a particular character is suited to tanking effectively. If you think long and hard, you'll come up with the missing link to your delightful theory of snowflakes and buttersheep.

Lemme know what you come up with. I believe in you.


OMG OMG OMG!

The distribution of stat points into those optimal for taking damage. Do I get a cookie?
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#16 May 25 2010 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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Its not stupid, its human nature. People look to find the optimal way to do X. In this case X is measured in exp/hr. And this doesn't just happen in FFXI. WoW has it, Eve has it, DDO has it. In fact, EVERY game has it to some degree or another.

Just because you think the sky being blue is "stupid" doesn't mean the sky isn't blue. :)



Of course they look. The difference is, in a balanced game, they don't find it.

Even if I agree that your average MMO corporation is far too happy robbing us all blind to change their ways anytime soon, there's no shame in wanting companies with more financial backing than some third world countries to do even half the balancing footwork joe boardgame manages without the benefit of post-production patching.








Edited, May 26th 2010 12:54am by Zemzelette
#17 May 25 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Well of course at this moment we don't have enough basic information on how to put together a tank. We know that basically a Gladiator is a tank. The class has heavy armor, shield, and though we don't know when you get them, but its starting abilities are all based on guarding and making hate. Even a weapon skill that deals damage and generates additional hate.

Unless a mage can wear heavy armor...and if they get the defense stat to really matter in this game...then yes, you might not have a mage tank...but pugilist seems like it might be geared for evasion tanking, so mage tank might be possible in some form.

In theory you can take the skills from any class and set them on any other class. Though you can't change to any weapon on any class or (possibly) use any type of armor. So far it even looks like Marauder lends itself to being a tank with its 'Defender' skill and maybe taking some of those Gladiator skills.

I really hope heavy armor really helps in dmg control...no more of that Drk in full heavy armor still taking hits like he's made of paper and stuff. ...
#18 May 25 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Zemzelette wrote:
Of course they look. The difference is, in a balanced game, they don't find it.

But we know the game isn't going to have perfect balance or balance to the point where any possible build/strategy is reasonably effective. No game does.

"Balanced game" is an arbitrary term. It means that a significant number of strategies are viable. However, even then there is still optimization and still cookie cutter builds.

Even if FFXIV turns out to be what most call a balanced game, there is still going to be optimizing and more or less preset builds.
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#20 May 26 2010 at 12:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's not like I'm expecting a Partially Solved game.
The day a videogame can manage that, I will weep tears of joy.

I'm just frustrated. There's an implicit submission in this "it's only natural" line of reasoning.
MMOs may come from an amateur game design culture, but why in the face of professional backing do our expectations for the game's balance remain the same?

Making most options viable and largely equal is exactly the sort of thing a person should expect from a professional game company with nearly 5 years of production time. A few builds, so overly much more effective even the public shuns you like a leper if you don't conform is not the normal result of this. Your average player isn't a forum goer, much less a min/maxer, much less an elitist. If they know of such things it's distantly, the resulting difference so minute they can't be assed to care beyond beating chests and pointing fingers.

If the public is behaving otherwise, it implies a failing in the validity or the naked-eye equality of choices.

There's a difference between optimization existing, and undermining meaningful choice. I know that sounds contrary to logic. "If there's a 'best DPS build', everyone would want to play it, and therefore it undermines choice". But we know from experience that isn't true. There are more people who ignore the flavor of the month than those who submit to it. We're more complicated than a greater or less than sign.


Edited, May 26th 2010 3:33am by Zemzelette
#21 May 26 2010 at 1:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm just frustrated. There's an implicit submission in this "it's only natural" line of reasoning.
MMOs may come from an amateur game design culture, but why in the face of professional backing do our expectations remain the same?* I'm sick of writing carte blanche for companies that damned well know better.


Agreed, but there's a reason behind it. Game makers make games that will SELL. In order to sell games, they have to make them easy enough for any idiot to use, yet complex enough for the power gamers to enjoy. What happens is you get a not-so-happy medium somewhere in the middle.

What you see as "amateur" game design, isn't amateur at all. They simply try to build a game that will be played by the biggest possible audience. A good deal of that audience is amateur (casual) players.

Quote:
There's a difference between optimization existing, and undermining meaningful choice. I know that sounds contrary to logic. "If there's a 'best DPS build', everyone would want to play it, and therefore it undermines choice". But we know from experience that isn't true. There are more people who ignore the flavor of the month than those who submit to it. We're more complicated than a greater or less than sign.


We know its possibly somewhat untrue. The power gamers out there will try and break the system. They'll find what they think is the optimal build. The players between casual- and power-gamers will copy this to a "T".

This brings us to the casual player. They may do there own thing for a while. But if they don't get into groups often enough or, just in general, can't get what they want out of the game they'll either quit or conform.

The player who truly does his own thing to meet his own goals is fairly rare. When was the last time you saw a Mnk/Whm seriously looking for an exp party? Dunes? Qufim, maybe? There's a REASON this kind of behavior stops so early: The player can't do what he wants to do with that set up.

Quote:
Caia paints a very different picture from you.
Making most options viable and largely equal is exactly the sort of thing a person should expect from a professional game company with nearly 5 years of production time. A few builds, so overly much more effective even the public shuns you like a lepar if you don't conform is not the normal result of this. Your average player isn't a forum goer, much less a min/maxer, much less an elitist. If they know of such things it's distantly, the resulting difference so minute they can't be assed to care beyond beating chests and pointing fingers.


By definition, they can't be equal. We can quibble over what "mostly equal" means, but I don't think it matters. There will be X builds which the player base says are good to use for doing thing Y. Doesn't matter if people look on the forums or not. They'll know either through seeing good builds do well, seeing bad builds do poorly, or hearing it from their guild/linkshell/party members/shouts in New Jeuno. People will learn what is and isn't a "good build".

For all those people expecting a world of different variation on possible combinations of abilities and powers, it just ain't gonna happen. At least not so far as being able to party effectively. A lot of people had the same perception going into FFXI (I sure did). Everyone found that only a select few setups were "allowed" for parties.
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#22 May 26 2010 at 1:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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If that were true, the entirety of an MMO's DPS population would play the single most damaging build of the single most damaging class.
#23 May 26 2010 at 1:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't claim it was 100% true.

Though, there is a reason people didn't play Sams or Drgs for a long long time. They were suboptimal damage dealers. Parties only allowed them in if a better DD wasn't available. This has largely been fixed, but it was a serious problem at one time.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Log on to FFXI right now and make yourself a Mnk/Whm or a Blm/War or whatever combination you want so long as its off the beaten path. Now, try and find a party like that. My bet is that you either won't be able to find a party, or you'll be the 6th person invited to a party that doesn't do so well.

Why do you think burn parties got to be so popular? They got lots of exp quickly. If you played a job that could be in a burn party, you didn't bother getting exp any other way. It was less than optimal and therefore a waste of your time.

Mark my words we'll see a very similar culture develop in FFXIV. It won't happen day one, but it'll happen.

Edited, May 26th 2010 3:51am by Caia
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#24 May 26 2010 at 8:14 AM Rating: Default
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Caia wrote:
Mark my words we'll see a very similar culture develop in FFXIV. It won't happen day one, but it'll happen.


then that will be the day that i and every other person who wants to enjoy themselves will leave and never look back.
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#25 May 26 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
Honestly, it still sounds like XIV is going to have threat based tanking, meaning you will have a specialized high defense, high threat class.

And honestly, I wish they'd move past that and move to a more intelligent system. Someone's gotta do it soon. Have smart enemies go after *actual* threats, i.e. healers and ranged spellcasters, and have the melee have to block them, low intelligence mobs would just attack by proximity. It would be much more realistic, and I think done right, more fun too. Instead of having highly specialized classes, people would have to generalize a little more to have some defense, mobility, etc.
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#26 May 26 2010 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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But hey, don't take my word for it. Log on to FFXI right now and make yourself a Mnk/Whm or a Blm/War or whatever combination you want so long as its off the beaten path. Now, try and find a party like that. My bet is that you either won't be able to find a party, or you'll be the 6th person invited to a party that doesn't do so well.


That would fall under failure to make choices valid,
which isn't really a good way to judge how vehement people are about the optimal.
(and is absolutely something I feel comfortable haranguing a company for dropping the ball on)

Xi's a hard thing to base an example around, but I'll try. It's hard to see the relationship between valid and optimal choices when almost all of the optimal choices just so happen to be the only valid ones.

I guess 'valid' an easy word to just throw out there, but I haven't really explained what I meant.
Valid means the choice you make doesn't interrupt the Flow or the Difficulty Curve. Flow is the careful balance of the ramping up of challenge of a game with the mastery of the player and the abilities granted to them, so that they're never overwhelmed or bored. The more familiar term is Difficulty Curve, which is how the game's flow looks when graphed as a relationship to challenge and time.

Probably a better example is the difference between Whm/blm and Whm/smn (pre-toau). No matter what you choose, your still mechanically able to meet the challenges the game presents, and you gain new tricks that allow you to overcome that difficulty at a pace that doesn't leave you bored or scrambling. Your still able to make a case about which of these choices is optimal. But that doesn't undermine how well they allow your character to interact with the game.




Quote:
Why do you think burn parties got to be so popular? They got lots of exp quickly. If you played a job that could be in a burn party, you didn't bother getting exp any other way. It was less than optimal and therefore a waste of your time.


The mass adaptation of Burn parties was a bit more hefty event than an optimal choice.

Players may have had a choice between the two, but this is generally not what we're talking about with the term 'player choice'. When we're talking choices, we're talking how well what you choose allows you to tackle the challenges the game presents, not changing the definition of 'challenge' within the game. This was obviously not something the devs had planned for, and normally that sort of thing isn't handled so lassiez-faire (especially when it allows an entire core mechanic to just evaporate into thin air).

I suppose that's the risk you run when you don't have guildleves to lead people by the nose.


Edited, May 26th 2010 1:38pm by Zemzelette
#27 May 26 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Honestly, it still sounds like XIV is going to have threat based tanking, meaning you will have a specialized high defense, high threat class.

And honestly, I wish they'd move past that and move to a more intelligent system. Someone's gotta do it soon. Have smart enemies go after *actual* threats, i.e. healers and ranged spellcasters, and have the melee have to block them, low intelligence mobs would just attack by proximity. It would be much more realistic, and I think done right, more fun too. Instead of having highly specialized classes, people would have to generalize a little more to have some defense, mobility, etc.
I kind of like that idea, but only with mobs that actually have some kind of intelligence (ie. humanoid). A lizard, crab or rabbit should still behave in a manner you'd expect, whoever is hitting them the hardest or ******* them off the most. Honestly, I think curing enmity should have never been put in FFXI in relation to "stupid" mobs. Like a beetle would even realize what the **** is going on past some guy in shiny armor poking and taunting him while a couple other dudes are hitting it with a big stick.

Edited, May 26th 2010 12:09pm by Harri
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#28 May 26 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Default
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Honestly, it still sounds like XIV is going to have threat based tanking, meaning you will have a specialized high defense, high threat class.


Nothing, absolutely nothing SE has said supports this being true.
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#29 May 26 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Like a beetle would even realize what the **** is going on past some guy in shiny armor poking and taunting him while a couple other dudes are hitting it with a big stick.


LMAO! As funny as that statement is, it completely makes sense.
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#30 May 26 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Honestly, it still sounds like XIV is going to have threat based tanking, meaning you will have a specialized high defense, high threat class.

And honestly, I wish they'd move past that and move to a more intelligent system. Someone's gotta do it soon. Have smart enemies go after *actual* threats, i.e. healers and ranged spellcasters, and have the melee have to block them, low intelligence mobs would just attack by proximity. It would be much more realistic, and I think done right, more fun too.

While it was a long time coming, FFXI now has many NMs with unique mob AI. I cannot remember the name, but there is a particular NM who will rush and attempt to stun spellcasters if it detects a spell being cast, regardless of current enmity. It's fancy and unexpected, but best reserved for NMs. Applying "unconventional" AI more generally sometimes invalidates a job/class, especially if its a popular mob type to target (eg. Colibri and BLMs; granted, BLMs have bigger problems than mobs with counterspell.)

Also, I don't understand how healers and spellcasters are "actual threats" while melee are not. The classic hate system already weighs threat based on damage dealt and damage recovered to determine who in the party is the most threatening. You could put a twist on it, though: in Dragon Age, for example, characters in heavier armor generate more enmity per action than characters in leather and robes. Why not reverse this for a sophisticated mob? Characters with lighter armor types could generate more enmity per action, or perpetually gain enmity in a certain proximity, simply by virtue of being weaker and therefore easier to kill. On the one hand, mages are more prone to danger; on the other, PUGs and the like generate more enmity.
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#31 May 29 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Every game has fun AoE stuff now. That's why FFXI is dying.
lol.

jk jk.

Edited, May 29th 2010 11:12am by GuardianFaith
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#32 May 29 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Any one think two or even three tanks would become something of a norm for a party? with SE saying they want an average party to be around 8 people and you'll be fighting groups of mobs rather then just pulling one at a time...it sounds like this wont be something a single tank would be able to handle alone.
#33 May 29 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Depends largely how the game is set up. If they wanted to they could make it so you didn't need a tank at all. On the other hand, they could set it up so that half your party had to be tanks to do well. Now neither case is likely, here, but in the end it will be up to how the game gets developed more than anything.
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#34 May 29 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Default
SideCH wrote:
Any one think two or even three tanks would become something of a norm for a party? with SE saying they want an average party to be around 8 people and you'll be fighting groups of mobs rather then just pulling one at a time...it sounds like this wont be something a single tank would be able to handle alone.


For an average 5-6 person party? No. There's a reason why tanks are hard to find...the role only appeals to a certain number of people. It's hard enough finding one person who is willing to tank...suddenly shift most of the damage roles to tank/offtank because it's necessary for the way the game is tuned and you're going to end up waiting a long, long time for groups to form.
#35 May 31 2010 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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There are a few, limited encounters in WoW where the party must fight a "party" boss-fight: 5 enemies of various classes that act more like other players in PvP than normal bosses. These fights often see NPC rogues jumping Priests who are busy healing, stunning and damaging them, just like in a PvP arena fight. There is a healer NPC, too, and failure to slow them down will make the encounter impossible. The tank is busy running around, using limited tools to get aggro from all of the enemies.

To me, those encounters (and I can only think of 2 in the whole game, sadly) are a lot more fun than the usual "bosses" which generally involve tanking, spanking and sometimes a little bit of dancing.

Anyone notice that the OP refered to WoW incorrectly? Almost like he was making stuff up? That seems a big thing on non-WoW boards.
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#36 May 31 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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SideCH wrote:
Any one think two or even three tanks would become something of a norm for a party? with SE saying they want an average party to be around 8 people and you'll be fighting groups of mobs rather then just pulling one at a time...it sounds like this wont be something a single tank would be able to handle alone.


In WoW these days, it is the norm for a tank to be holding 2-5 mobs at a time. All they need is some AoE hate-building abilities. All 4 tank classes in WoW have multiple AoE moves that can be used effectively to build hate.
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#37 May 31 2010 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Honestly, it still sounds like XIV is going to have threat based tanking, meaning you will have a specialized high defense, high threat class.

Nothing, absolutely nothing SE has said supports this being true.


I sure would think Gladiator for example would, or at least the fact that SEs FFXIV page has

Rousing Provoke - Use threatening gesture to increase enmity

and

Rampart - Spell proctecting yoursle, increasing both physical and magical defence

as spells listed, would be something SE said that absolutely supports it.
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#38 May 31 2010 at 9:00 PM Rating: Default
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Aurelius makes the most valid point about wanting to be a tank. Now...even though a Gladiator has alot of 'tank' skills the player has absolutely no reason to actually tank when playing as a Gladiator. Thats the point of the Armory system and all.

Oddly, anyone being able to become a 'tank' or not is also part of the Armory system. One of the things they pointed out is that if a party didn't have enough healers then some one should be able to just become one...so in theory that should be true with tanking. Though it of course takes a 'special' kind of person would wants to be a tank (I know I'm not one of them)

It almost sounds like a whole different can of worms can get opened when your party ask you, the melee build Gladiator, to start tanking since "you can".I wonder how the class search system will work then, since a standard 'tank class' wont fully-exist. I mean with the right skills a Gladiator can be like a thf, so its almost possible to have a party of 6 Gladiators all using different skills and styles and none of them being a tank!
#39 May 31 2010 at 9:24 PM Rating: Default
SideCH wrote:
Aurelius makes the most valid point about wanting to be a tank. Now...even though a Gladiator has alot of 'tank' skills the player has absolutely no reason to actually tank when playing as a Gladiator. Thats the point of the Armory system and all.

Oddly, anyone being able to become a 'tank' or not is also part of the Armory system. One of the things they pointed out is that if a party didn't have enough healers then some one should be able to just become one...so in theory that should be true with tanking. Though it of course takes a 'special' kind of person would wants to be a tank (I know I'm not one of them)

It almost sounds like a whole different can of worms can get opened when your party ask you, the melee build Gladiator, to start tanking since "you can".I wonder how the class search system will work then, since a standard 'tank class' wont fully-exist. I mean with the right skills a Gladiator can be like a thf, so its almost possible to have a party of 6 Gladiators all using different skills and styles and none of them being a tank!


Personally, I think people are misinterpreting what SE has said. Like you said, they seem to want to release a system so that a lot more classes will be viable as tanks just by equipping appropriate abilities. People inexperienced with "many vs. many" encounters look at that and seem to see a cluster of offtanks going nuts. There's lots of room for encounters where everyone in a party might be required to hold their own for a period of time, but as a general mainstay? No. It's a horribly inefficient way to go about combat. Not only is it resource intensive, it's relatively slow.

SE has said that they don't want classes forced into certain roles. They haven't said they want all classes capable of all things. It's a subtle yet significant difference in wording.
#40 May 31 2010 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
Its more realistic though that the horde of bad guys doesn't all go towards the most armored target because he happened to shout. It's not so much a problem that the highest DPS causes the most emnity, but that 'tanks' get these artificial abilities that generate emnity. That's the unrealistic part. It would be fairly easy to set up a system where mobs have a 'combat smarts' stat, where the smarter they are, the more 'appears easy to kill' effects emnity generation, and healing even moreso. I just think it would be even better if there was also an issue where you could block pathing, because that is also realistic. Its realistic that ranged can stay back and the armored guys try to contain the enemies.

Edited, May 31st 2010 11:04pm by digitalcraft
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#41 Jun 01 2010 at 12:09 AM Rating: Default
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Its more realistic though that the horde of bad guys doesn't all go towards the most armored target because he happened to shout. It's not so much a problem that the highest DPS causes the most emnity, but that 'tanks' get these artificial abilities that generate emnity. That's the unrealistic part. It would be fairly easy to set up a system where mobs have a 'combat smarts' stat, where the smarter they are, the more 'appears easy to kill' effects emnity generation, and healing even moreso. I just think it would be even better if there was also an issue where you could block pathing, because that is also realistic. Its realistic that ranged can stay back and the armored guys try to contain the enemies.


All you'd be doing in that situation is turning healers into tanks. Realism is a secondary concern to playability. There has to be some way that players can exert a certain amount of control over encounters. There would be nothing realistic about a lalafel blocking the path of a three storey tall dragon on its way to chew the face off the healer.
#42 Jun 01 2010 at 1:04 AM Rating: Decent
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There would be nothing realistic about a lalafel blocking the path of a three storey tall dragon on its way to chew the face off the healer.


/ja Face Chew

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lol
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#43 Jun 01 2010 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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All you'd be doing in that situation is turning healers into tanks. Realism is a secondary concern to playability. There has to be some way that players can exert a certain amount of control over encounters. There would be nothing realistic about a lalafel blocking the path of a three storey tall dragon on its way to chew the face off the healer.


Clearly you've never had to scrap lalafell of the bottom of your shoe.
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#44 Jun 01 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
The fact that lalafell can be any sort of melee class at all already has sailed that ship on home. :P
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#45 Jun 01 2010 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
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SideCH wrote:

Aurelius makes the most valid point about wanting to be a tank. Now...even though a Gladiator has alot of 'tank' skills the player has absolutely no reason to actually tank when playing as a Gladiator. Thats the point of the Armory system and all.

Oddly, anyone being able to become a 'tank' or not is also part of the Armory system. One of the things they pointed out is that if a party didn't have enough healers then some one should be able to just become one...so in theory that should be true with tanking. Though it of course takes a 'special' kind of person would wants to be a tank (I know I'm not one of them)

It almost sounds like a whole different can of worms can get opened when your party ask you, the melee build Gladiator, to start tanking since "you can".I wonder how the class search system will work then, since a standard 'tank class' wont fully-exist. I mean with the right skills a Gladiator can be like a thf, so its almost possible to have a party of 6 Gladiators all using different skills and styles and none of them being a tank!


The biggest problem with the lack of tanks in XI was that you couldn't play the class of your choice and still tank because you just couldn't take the damage. That left basically two classes that had the defensive skills and abilities because it was thought that being a strong melee fighter AND having good defense would be too overpowered. So, Paladins and Ninjas suffered somewhat and instead had good defense and evasion, respectively, and SE called it a day.

Other classes can tank in niche situations, but these two were and are the primary tank classes that are sought after when building an XP party. To succesfully break the trend of only two *builds* (Read: Classes) being acceptable for tanking, SE needs to rethink their approach to threat-generation and melee capabilities.

I'm not saying that clothies should be out there tanking dragons, but I do feel that melee classes should have reasonable enough defense and access to abilities to be viable tanks without sacrificing so much on the DD front. Then we would see more gladiators willing to bear the brunt of the monster's attacks.

I agree it takes a certain person to tank a monster now, but what if you didn't have to sacrifice your place on the parse just because you were the party's main tank?

That, I think, would solve the biggest issues with not enough tanks.

Healers, that's a different story.
#46 Jun 01 2010 at 12:13 PM Rating: Default
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There's potentially half dozen mobs to fight at time.

It's very possible that all the melee classes will have to tank in order to survive. One tank simply isn't enough.

The way equipment is divided also kinda supports this. Gladiators wield medium armor, but can use shields. Lancers and Marauders use heavy armor with high defense. Archer, Pugilist and mages use light armor with significant evasion boost in them.

The potential is there for all (melee)classes to be able to tank. Every class also gets some healing skills. Mages can't recover MP through normal means.

Figure out the rest!
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#47 Jun 01 2010 at 7:48 PM Rating: Default
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Your very right Torrence. In FFXI the community sort of 'declared' Ninja and Paladin to be your most effective tanks. While some classes had some 'tank' qualities or even un-orthodox ways of tanking that might work (I know I heard of Counter-Mnk's but I've never seen one in action...it sounds pretty cool though)the community at large might not be all for it.

though you can of course try it sometimes, find the right group of people that are up for anything and you can do some crazy/fun stuff (I've had my share of Drk tanks hehe, good times)

But also as Aurelius pointed out, SE wants the classes not to be 'forced into one role'. This is good...and bad. Since once the game comes out and some one finds some magic tanking build for one class...some people might start thinking 'that' is the only way to tank and start expecting that class to do it that one way. I mean how many people invited a NIN and expected them to start using elemental nukes? not to often (though I knew one NIN who subbed BLM and used HQ elemental staffs to really blast stuff) I'm just saying some creative builds can start to fall to the way-side.

Is there a way to make a class thats great at tanking but still acceptable at doing other things and not be 'forced into a role'? When the game comes out I do want to try and start out as a Marauder tank (if its possible) but not lose the ability to show up to a party as a Damage dealer (and not just hear "we need you to tank" all the time)
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