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Moving from Alpha to BetaFollow

#1 May 27 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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As the time draws ever closer for Final Fantasy XIV to level up into a beta, Dengeki sat down with Producer Hiromichi Tanaka, Director Nobuaki Komoto and Planner Kenichi Iwao to discuss the progress of the game thus far. Some of this article has been leaked already, and various tidbits can be found around different fansites. Let's take a look through the article itself and confirm exactly what the developers said.

Read the full story here
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#2 May 27 2010 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Really interesting. As I expected, most of the feedback from the Alpha isn't going to be implemented immediately, but in the beta.
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#3 May 27 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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The next round of testers has already been chosen for when phase 2 of the alpha begins.


I wonder if they have been informed yet.
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#4 May 27 2010 at 10:53 PM Rating: Default
patient wrote:
Quote:
The next round of testers has already been chosen for when phase 2 of the alpha begins.


I wonder if they have been informed yet.


I have a feeling we'd know. There will be a ton more testers this time than the 1st round, and we pretty much knew right away for the Alpha.
#5 May 27 2010 at 11:05 PM Rating: Default
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Players feel that the pace of battles is too slow. The developers plan to implement a new system for the beta that is almost completely different.


That is awesome. It's a very nice change (from XI) to see SE acting upon player feedback on such a big issue. Smiley: cool
#6 May 27 2010 at 11:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Wooooo! Is anyone else incredibly excited that goblins are coming back for XIV?

Also, if we don't have moogles in our houses who is going to clean up all that armor all over the floor? T_T
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#7 May 27 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Great to see that things are moving forward :)

Sounds like there was a lot of complaints about the battle system. I'm glad they were so open to criticism.

Can't wait for the PS3 beta lol!!!
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#8 May 27 2010 at 11:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm just hoping they don't turn it into a button-masher of a game.. There's no shortage of those out there. Strategy > Speed.

One thing that could drive me away from this game is if I had to go all 'carpal tunnel' to play.


I do like their mentioning of Venice, Palmyra, and Mayan cities as inspiration for their three starting city-states.. Though I think bringing a carnival atmosphere to their desert oasis is arguably a bit of a clash.. And from the Gridania art I've seen, it doesn't look like it's situated in Mesoamerica - more like the Shire..

Edited, May 28th 2010 1:54am by Carrilei
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#9 May 27 2010 at 11:43 PM Rating: Decent
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There will exist NPCs that players are unable to create themselves (i.e. male Miqo'te).


Just waiting for the drama to unfold on this one. lol. I'm in the "it would be nice but not a deal breaker" camp. On the other hand, this dashes my dreams of world goblin domination! However, I am happy to hear about the friendly beastmen aspect of goblins. Would rather slowly torture those dirty rat....er qiqirun. All in all, great article. Thanks so much Elmer!

About the only thing I am really worried about at this point is the level of customization. Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of lots of customization: both aestetic and mechanic. However, that does not mean I want every player to basically be clones of eachother with the accidental difference of a weapon. I guess it just seems like a certain amount of flavor could potentially be lost. What is the advantage of one class versus another, if I can just sub that classes abilities? I see nothing wrong with traditional roles of tank, healer, and DD. Sure I don't mind some customization for certain classes to be able to at least decently fill multiple roles, but not to the extent that any player can basically cover any position in a party no matter what their main class. Anyways, maybe I am too worried over nothing, and then again maybe I have been seeing too much leaked information >.>

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#10 May 27 2010 at 11:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Players feel that the pace of battles is too slow. The developers plan to implement a new system for the beta that is almost completely different.


It really is encouraging to see them making the motions of listening to the play-

Quote:
There will exist NPCs that players are unable to create themselves (i.e. male Miqo'te).


-......nevermind.


Actually, I'm still holding out hope for something unique. There is that second destroyed city we haven't heard hide nor hair of. And it seems weird to have 12 gods, 6 cities, and 5 races.

Edited, May 28th 2010 2:01am by Zemzelette
#11 May 27 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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All the races will become selectable in the beta version. This includes Miqo'te, Komoto adds with a laugh.
It looks like a whole new chapter is set to unfold based on the feedback and opinions of all the users.


I was kinda thinking the same thing until i had read this
Quote:
There will exist NPCs that players are unable to create themselves (i.e. male Miqo'te).


I find it hard to believe that SE didn't get " feedback" and "opinions" on the male and female counterparts to Miqo'te and Roegadyn .
Come on SE give the player base this option.. People have been requesting it for years ! The first quote kinda lead me to believe that SE made them playable... /shakes head. Everything else looks awesome. Thanks Elmer !
#12 May 28 2010 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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It is a pretty big slap in the face to have them in the game, but as NPCs only. Again. Personally I've given up on this issue for XIV (it's clear they want none of it -no matter what their players say), so whatever. At least we get Qiqirns and other Aht Urghan mobs. <3 ToAU.

Edited, May 28th 2010 2:07am by Carrilei
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#13 May 28 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Default
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one of the things that stood out to me was this:

"XIV aims to bring more freedom to the life of the adventurer. In XI, players were introduced to the world as citizens of a particular nation. In XIV, you can freely associate yourself with different guilds."

I'm a bit sad about that...I was so looking forward to being a citizen of Ul'dah (what I'm hoping to be XIV's version of Bastok anyway)
#14 May 28 2010 at 12:32 AM Rating: Good
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I wouldn't give up hope yet. Perhaps the "(ie Male Miqote)" was Elmer's addition so we'd have an example of what the Dev was saying. That little part that went "This includes Miqo'te, Komoto adds with a laugh. " is suspicious to me. That little chuckle may have been because he knows. In the back of his mind he knows. He knows that we don't know and he's trying to keep it a secret. That's why he's smiling. They exist people. They're bluffing. lol.

Have you ever tried to fool somebody but gave it away because you started smiling? Kinda like that. :P

Edited, May 28th 2010 12:57pm by mithrandrk
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#15 May 28 2010 at 1:15 AM Rating: Decent
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mithrandrk wrote:
I wouldn't give up hope yet. maybe the "(ie Male Miqote)" was Elmer's addition so we'd have an example. That little "This includes Miqo'te, Komoto adds with a laugh. " -laugh may have been because he knows. In the back of his mind he knows. He knows that we don't know and he's trying to keep it a secret. That's why he's smiling. They exist people. They're bluffing. lol.

Have you ever tried to make fool somebody but failed because you started smiling? Kinda like that. :P


This text is so bad and really shows how desperate this guy wants male miqote. *laughs*
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#16 May 28 2010 at 1:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I do like their mentioning of Venice, Palmyra, and Mayan cities as inspiration for their three starting city-states.. Though I think bringing a carnival atmosphere to their desert oasis is arguably a bit of a clash.. And from the Gridania art I've seen, it doesn't look like it's situated in Mesoamerica - more like the Shire..


I think that is taking their inspiration a little too literally. A city surrounded by deep forest does not have to be in Mesoamerica, just as Limsa-Lominsa doesn't have Venetian canals. I'm not really sure what clashes about a "carnival" feel to a desert city.. Vegas anyone? ;D

Overall I think when they said "inspiration" they meant inspiration.. not "carbon copy."
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#17 May 28 2010 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
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The battle system wont change as drastically as people may think, there is just no way - its not as if they built two completely different battle systems for a game this big just so they could try them during alpha/beta phase...no way. Personally, if they speed it up, maybe a nudge, I'd be ok with it but the speed its at atm isn't so bad..It just wont become a button masher as many MMOs are nowadays.
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#18 May 28 2010 at 3:42 AM Rating: Default
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I don't think SE is ignoring players when it comes to the male Miquote. There is a big difference between people just randomly saying "Yeah, I want a male version." in forums and people expressing themselves in concise feedback. It's obviously not a big enough issue to turn their heads.

I look forward to hearing peoples takes on the beta and the changes they made and the effects. I'm very much liking the interviews so far since they seem to say "We're not trying to punish you anymore. Consolation prizes are good. Rewarding people for helping you is better." I've always thought of that as the most important thing when it comes to quests/missions. Is proper reward for people helping you with something they've already completed. The Promy missions come to mind. That was hours of dedicated time. The exp reward scroll(for people already done the mission) was a step in the right direction to help people with that.
#19 May 28 2010 at 4:00 AM Rating: Good
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There will be many monsters from Aht Urghan and beyond that players can expect to see.


yay colbiris >.>
#20 May 28 2010 at 5:23 AM Rating: Decent
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SolidMack wrote:
The battle system wont change as drastically as people may think, there is just no way - its not as if they built two completely different battle systems for a game this big just so they could try them during alpha/beta phase...no way. Personally, if they speed it up, maybe a nudge, I'd be ok with it but the speed its at atm isn't so bad..It just wont become a button masher as many MMOs are nowadays.


You have no way of knowing that. FOr all you know, they *did* completely abolish their established combat system from *alpha* builds and decided to go a different route. It wouldn't be the first MMO to do so and it won't be the last. Things happen, things, change, and perhaps it simply isn't shaping out to be exactly like they want and they'll scrap it. Perhaps they'll simply shorten the duration of the ATB "global" timer so that commands can be inputted more quickly.

But frankly that's unknown, and until the round of A2/B1 starts, no one will. For all we know, they're getting massive pressure from "The Big Boys" once it's been seen how the majority of players in alpha and those seeing it second hand from alpha via leaks don't like how slow it is. The *best* comparison I've seen is from someone that managed to kill mobs an area over with as minimal lag as possible, and it still was, at best, as "fast" as FFXI.

This whole "strategy" vs. "speed" debate is overdone and completely false. Having lead raids/alliances in FFXI, EQ, EQII, and in WoW, the ONLY thing that a slower combat pace does is give people time to let their minds wander. In theory, the idea that the pauses between your auto-swings (95% of your combat in FFXI, be brutally honest) gives you a chance to plan out an attack. In reality, there's nothing to "plan" and that time is spent with people thinking about other things outside of the game and does nothing but spell distraction.

When it was announced they were going to do away with auto-attack and every command would have to be inputted manually, I immediately thought of Age of Conan and how utterly *horrible* it is there. So far, the combat in FFXIV is the same as Age of Conan; it's clunky, it's slow, and it's not really fun. Combined with a non-working mouse + keyboard control scheme it's frankly not enjoyable at all.

Personally? FFXI is too slow, WoW is too frantic. I want something in between, and as it stands right now, the pace of FFXIV isn't that. That and it seems to borrow from FFXI's absolutely sh*tty hate system so far (yes, I know it's an alpha).



Edited, May 28th 2010 7:25am by StrijderVechter
#21 May 28 2010 at 6:06 AM Rating: Decent
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thanks for the translation Elmer :D
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#22 May 28 2010 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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* Other monsters, like the Dodo and Puk, that are familiar to XI players will appear in XIV. There will be many monsters from Aht Urghan and beyond that players can expect to see.


In before Colibri. SE....WWWWWWRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYY

Rest of the info is awesome though. On the whole "Male Miqo'te are NPC only again!" thing, I'm really indifferent towards that subject. It's not really as important as people try to make it (think someone said it'd be nice but not a dealbreaker if they're not playable; I would hope people would take that approach). Focusing on far more vital subjects such as the battle system should of course take precedence.
#23 May 28 2010 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
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A bazaar-type system is planned for players to buy and sell goods. They want players to be able to keep their bazaars open even when logged out.


That be nice if they add that. No leaving the PC/PS3 on all night just to sell some items.
#24 May 28 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
SolidMack wrote:
The battle system wont change as drastically as people may think, there is just no way - its not as if they built two completely different battle systems for a game this big just so they could try them during alpha/beta phase...no way. Personally, if they speed it up, maybe a nudge, I'd be ok with it but the speed its at atm isn't so bad..It just wont become a button masher as many MMOs are nowadays.


I'm not sure SE could have been more clear:

SE wrote:
Players feel that the pace of battles is too slow. The developers plan to implement a new system for the beta that is almost completely different.


When a large number of alpha testers (comprised mostly of FFXI players selected under SE's loyalty campaign) are saying it's too slow even after a substantial portion of the lag has been addressed, it's too slow. How much "almost completely different" will shift it towards the "button mashing" you're averse to we don't know, but I think "almost completely different" is about as close to "drastic" as you can get.
#25 May 28 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Ul'dah will have a coliseum where players can participate.


#26 May 28 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Default
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
SolidMack wrote:
The battle system wont change as drastically as people may think, there is just no way - its not as if they built two completely different battle systems for a game this big just so they could try them during alpha/beta phase...no way. Personally, if they speed it up, maybe a nudge, I'd be ok with it but the speed its at atm isn't so bad..It just wont become a button masher as many MMOs are nowadays.


I'm not sure SE could have been more clear:

SE wrote:
Players feel that the pace of battles is too slow. The developers plan to implement a new system for the beta that is almost completely different.


When a large number of alpha testers (comprised mostly of FFXI players selected under SE's loyalty campaign) are saying it's too slow even after a substantial portion of the lag has been addressed, it's too slow. How much "almost completely different" will shift it towards the "button mashing" you're averse to we don't know, but I think "almost completely different" is about as close to "drastic" as you can get.


It was slow because of latency, which was still faster than FFXI's prehastegasm era. People want an action game and I guess SE will finally give people who feel MMORPGs should be fast paced Arcade games.

If anything it seems like they'll probably make both gauges fill together and you can activate basic attacks before the initial gauge fills for less damage or something.

People felt it was "too slow" after latency because it wasn't action game fast.

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#27 May 28 2010 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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When a large number of alpha testers (comprised mostly of FFXI players selected under SE's loyalty campaign) are saying it's too slow even after a substantial portion of the lag has been addressed, it's too slow. How much "almost completely different" will shift it towards the "button mashing" you're averse to we don't know, but I think "almost completely different" is about as close to "drastic" as you can get.


Said testers still don't know jack sh*t about how the combat is later on. Raise the combat speed at level 10, make the combat potentially too fast later. I hope at least SE is aware of that.

Edited, May 28th 2010 4:08pm by Hyanmen
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#28 May 28 2010 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think that we are in any danger of SE making the speed "action game fast". What this reminds me of is way back when we all first started playing, went outside the starter city of our choice, and began whacking away at monsters. Remember how back then we weren't getting our first weaponskill until we were dunes-level? Then, they changed it so that we get our first weaponskill at skill level 5 which you would typically see at around level 2. All of a sudden, the leveling experience got so much better.

I see the battle system changes as akin to that, only, it's not taking them 4 years before they implement it.
#29 May 28 2010 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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How will you translate that to XIV though? You get abilities like every two levels already.

What can they do to make it different, yet keep it from not being action game?

The effect gauge alone kinda makes it hard for them to just speed up the combat.. you gotta have at least enough time to press the skill at the correct gauge level.

Edited, May 28th 2010 4:52pm by Hyanmen
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#30 May 28 2010 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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This text is so bad and really shows how desperate this guy wants male miqote. *laughs*


LOLLL Yeah I'm going to attribute it to being tired though hahahaaa I'll go fix it. :P
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#31 May 28 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
Remember how back then we weren't getting our first weaponskill until we were dunes-level? Then, they changed it so that we get our first weaponskill at skill level 5 which you would typically see at around level 2.
Wait, you hit the dunes at level 4? That's kinda stretching it :D

But yeah, having it at 5 rather than 10 was nice but the difference between level 2 and level 4 is about 30minutes
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#32 May 28 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I understood "(ie no male Miqote)" as Elmer's interpretation, which is a completely reasonable guess seeing as how we know there are models for both genders of Miqote/Roegadyn, but there's no indication of them being playable thus far. I'm still not completely convinced that they don't have plans to implement them, although it seems unlikely.

Quote:
I see nothing wrong with traditional roles of tank, healer, and DD.


Nothing wrong? Does that include waiting for hours for a tank or a healer?

I can only imagine what changes they're planning for the combat system, but it seems to me that if you're going for a turn-based-ish real-time-strategy game, the answer to "too slow" isn't "faster!" but "harder!" It sounds like a problem of there not being any real thought to what abilities you select and your positioning during combat. Strategy games are no fun if you can figure out a successful strategy before you even start the battle-- there has to be some fluidity.

I also can't help but wonder if the system is good as-is for the late game when you have lots of abilities and challenging opponents, but I guess it's also important to keep people playing long enough to get there.
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#33 May 28 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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I also can't help but wonder if the system is good as-is for the late game when you have lots of abilities and challenging opponents, but I guess it's also important to keep people playing long enough to get there.


I was concerned about this as well, however... once I read this:

Quote:
HT: Komoto told the testers before alpha started that the tempo of battle is something we’re looking at. When beta test starts, we will be implementing a completely different battle system, practically remade from the ground up. We weren’t planning on using the current battle system in the first place, but we didn’t want players to wait until beta, so we explained the situation and opened the test.


I realized that they were planning on using a different system from the beginning, not just because enough people whined about it in the Alpha. The one there is currently seems like a placeholder like a lot other things as well.

Now I'm really excited to see what they have come up with.
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#34 May 28 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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LordFaramir wrote:

Wait, you hit the dunes at level 4? That's kinda stretching it :D

But yeah, having it at 5 rather than 10 was nice but the difference between level 2 and level 4 is about 30minutes


Ok, yea I was stretching it just a tad :p

My point was really that it was a small change, but it made a world of difference for those of us who started when the game was in its NA infancy and it seemed to take FOREVER to level. Back then, it was a little more than 30 minutes as well, because the xp monsters gave was a lot lower and there weren't nifty things like the new tutorial NPC or FoV to help along, and there was only the Empress Band which you couldn't get right away because it cost a lot of CP so you were basically on your own for quite some time.

Little things make all the difference, and it just seems to me like SE sees that the players crave a more engaging experience and I think it's great that they are accepting that feedback instead of ignoring it.

Edited, May 28th 2010 3:41pm by Torrence
#35 May 28 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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After reading the interview on FFxivcore.com I found an interesting part about the combat system, that could solve some of the questions I seen asked.

Quote:
DP: The alpha test started with the game at a rather unpolished state. How are the players taking this?


That question was answered by SE, with this reply.

Quote:
NK: A lot of players have been pointing out the poor tempo of battle and the lack of explanation for parts of the game. We are trying to decide how write the explanations for beta and commercial release, so these are really helpful comments.
HT: Komoto told the testers before alpha started that the tempo of battle is something we’re looking at. When beta test starts, we will be implementing a completely different battle system, practically remade from the ground up. We weren’t planning on using the current battle system in the first place, but we didn’t want players to wait until beta, so we explained the situation and opened the test.


The bold part pretty much explains it clearly

People complaining about the speed of battle should be happy, and it should put to rest the notation that they couldn't possibly have another battle system in place to test out. Its also kind of funny that he mentioned they weren't even planning to use the current battle system that is on alpha in the first place.
#36 May 28 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Default
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It was slow because of latency, which was still faster than FFXI's prehastegasm era. People want an action game and I guess SE will finally give people who feel MMORPGs should be fast paced Arcade games.


Latency was an issue, yes. Latest reports out of the alpha are saying that the latency is far less of an issue and the combat is still too slow.
#37 May 28 2010 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Fantastic find Elmer, thanks a bunch. Well it seems the the Alpha battle system was just a place holder to test out various skills and character mechanics. For me that is something that is very promising. I am excited to see what SE actually has up its sleeve. Also, I love the idea about the game being based on "freedom". I think when all is said and done we are going to be playing in a world with a wealth of possibilities that we have never seen before in a MMO.
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#38 May 29 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Default
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The pace of battle is too slow by today's standard. I'm really happy to hear that they're not only speeding it up, but doing something completely different than alpha. In an MMO I want to be able to unleash an ******* of attacks and be entertained. If I wanted to sit and wait around for my next attack, I'd play an RPG on a console or go back to FFXI. That system is outdated and boring. I've played both WoW and FFXI for over 5 years each, as well as many other MMOs (most of them were garbage). Although FFXI was my first love and will always have a special place in my heart, WoW's combat was a whole new level of fun. Pushing your character/gear to it's limits and DPS racing is exciting and gives an opportunity to really prove what all your hard work is worth. People based their parses off of how fast they could down colibri in a merit party. That's pretty sad. Diehard anti-blizzard FFXI players always come up with this BS about slower paced = more strategy. No it doesn't, FFXI boss fights were nothing but monotonous tank & spank. I can't wait to see if SE is really stepping up the action this time around.

Edited, May 29th 2010 11:04am by GuardianFaith
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#39 May 29 2010 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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and it still was, at best, as "fast" as FFXI.


With all due respect to your opinion, no it wasn't. This game is faster than FFXI from even the laggy footage that has leaked, sorry man, its not that slow...people are just mindless nowadays (not pointing at you or anything) and they want speed speed speed...they want everything and they want it fast. My parents own a restaurant, I was working there yesterday and this guy walks in and orders a burger and asked how long it takes - we said 10 minutes (its freshly made, unlike McDonald's who cook batches at a time) and he gives us this surprised expression like, "10 minutes!!!"...omg 10 minutes is so long for someone to wait nowadays. In today's society everyone wants everything fast - its not different in MMOs but what I was talking about when I was saying strategy over speed is the gameplay in Aion is so fast and if anyone says there's strategy involved in any party play prior to end game is a liar...and just because you may think end game is the only part of the game we should party up some of us don't even think of playing end game. I hope they don't tweak it too much, speed it up a bit sure, but nothing too drastic.
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#40 May 29 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
I can only imagine what changes they're planning for the combat system, but it seems to me that if you're going for a turn-based-ish real-time-strategy game, the answer to "too slow" isn't "faster!" but "harder!" It sounds like a problem of there not being any real thought to what abilities you select and your positioning during combat. Strategy games are no fun if you can figure out a successful strategy before you even start the battle-- there has to be some fluidity.


No, it's too slow. The complaint is that there is far too great a delay between actions as a physical damage class. It's not that people don't feel like there's enough to ponder between attacks...it's that they're bored waiting to do what they've decided to do. Giving them more to think about for simple tasks is not the solution unless you want to alienate a large portion of your potential playerbase.

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I also can't help but wonder if the system is good as-is for the late game when you have lots of abilities and challenging opponents, but I guess it's also important to keep people playing long enough to get there.


People are already sporting full action bars. Again...it's not a shortage of things to do...it's the time between opportunities to do them.
#41 May 29 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
SolidMack wrote:
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and it still was, at best, as "fast" as FFXI.


With all due respect to your opinion, no it wasn't. This game is faster than FFXI from even the laggy footage that has leaked, sorry man, its not that slow...people are just mindless nowadays (not pointing at you or anything) and they want speed speed speed...they want everything and they want it fast. My parents own a restaurant, I was working there yesterday and this guy walks in and orders a burger and asked how long it takes - we said 10 minutes (its freshly made, unlike McDonald's who cook batches at a time) and he gives us this surprised expression like, "10 minutes!!!"...omg 10 minutes is so long for someone to wait nowadays. In today's society everyone wants everything fast - its not different in MMOs but what I was talking about when I was saying strategy over speed is the gameplay in Aion is so fast and if anyone says there's strategy involved in any party play prior to end game is a liar...and just because you may think end game is the only part of the game we should party up some of us don't even think of playing end game.


I would think that wanting a brisk pace so that they're constantly engaged in the combat would be the opposite of mindless.

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I hope they don't tweak it too much, speed it up a bit sure, but nothing too drastic.


They've said the system they're putting in place will be "almost completely different". Don't get your hopes up.
#42 May 30 2010 at 3:01 AM Rating: Decent
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They've said the system they're putting in place will be "almost completely different". Don't get your hopes up.


I know they said this I just have a hard time believing them...am I in the wrong even? ****, before we knew anything about the game, we were under the impression there is no typical leveling up system in FFXIV...because we believed SE when they said it. I just don't see any company taking the time to build 2 completely (drastically different)combat systems just so they could try them out and throw one out the door. MAYBE SE is the first one to do this because maybe they see the reward is greater than the time taken in this case but its not really something that's done regularly, if at all even. If I'm to guess here I would say that by drastically different SE will maybe speed it up a bit and change the charge up system they have in place and then when they get backlash from people saying, "but you guys said completely different!!" they'll call it a translation error...you can definitely quote me on this when we know more, and there is a chance I could be completely off, but this is my input on this situation.

Edited, May 30th 2010 5:05am by SolidMack
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#43 May 30 2010 at 3:08 AM Rating: Decent
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They've said the system they're putting in place will be "almost completely different". Don't get your hopes up.


"There will be no levels or experience points this time."
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#44 May 30 2010 at 4:40 AM Rating: Good
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You know I think its bloody fantastic.
They've trialled a battle system, and yeah it's kinda slow and boring, but like they said, it's only in Alpha, and they can literally uproot the entire system and make it better. I just think it's really nice to see them listening and taking in all the feedback. And it just goes to show what Beta's are there for.
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#45 May 30 2010 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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They've trialled a battle system, and yeah it's kinda slow and boring, but like they said, it's only in Alpha, and they can literally uproot the entire system and make it better. I just think it's really nice to see them listening and taking in all the feedback. And it just goes to show what Beta's are there for.


We don't know if they've listened or not yet.

They were working on the different system, even before the Alpha began. I doubt feedback had much to do with that.

The feedback might affect the development of the new system though, so we'll see if their voices are heard.

I hope not.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#46 May 30 2010 at 10:52 AM Rating: Decent
SolidMack wrote:
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They've said the system they're putting in place will be "almost completely different". Don't get your hopes up.


I know they said this I just have a hard time believing them...am I in the wrong even? ****, before we knew anything about the game, we were under the impression there is no typical leveling up system in FFXIV...because we believed SE when they said it. I just don't see any company taking the time to build 2 completely (drastically different)combat systems just so they could try them out and throw one out the door. MAYBE SE is the first one to do this because maybe they see the reward is greater than the time taken in this case but its not really something that's done regularly, if at all even. If I'm to guess here I would say that by drastically different SE will maybe speed it up a bit and change the charge up system they have in place and then when they get backlash from people saying, "but you guys said completely different!!" they'll call it a translation error...you can definitely quote me on this when we know more, and there is a chance I could be completely off, but this is my input on this situation.


Well, unfortunately, SE has already said that the combat systems in place were never what they intended to be using. The intended systems weren't complete yet so they put together what they could just to get the testing off the ground. So yes, they DID make two different combat systems...one last minute hack-job to get into the first test build and the one that they were still working on when the alpha began. I would expect that the "new" system will borrow heavily from concepts used in the initial testing but in terms of pace and flow it will be quite different.
#47 May 30 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Default
Hyanmen wrote:
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They've said the system they're putting in place will be "almost completely different". Don't get your hopes up.


"There will be no levels or experience points this time."


They prefaced that with something along the lines of, "at least not in the traditional sense." And the system in place is currently a departure from the traditional RPG leveling system the way physical level is distinct from class level and class level (rank) is based on weapon skill points you earn during combat as opposed to a fixed rate you earn based on your level relative to the level of the mob you fought. There's a difference between what they said a year ago relative to a game still far from complete and what they've said about changes they're going to be making within the next month. In this case, one was a commentary on a plan for development, and the other is an announcement of something that is already almost fully developed for testing and slated for an almost immediately upcoming push.
#48 May 30 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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They prefaced that with something along the lines of, "at least not in the traditional sense." And the system in place is currently a departure from the traditional RPG leveling system the way physical level is distinct from class level and class level (rank) is based on weapon skill points you earn during combat as opposed to a fixed rate you earn based on your level relative to the level of the mob you fought. There's a difference between what they said a year ago relative to a game still far from complete and what they've said about changes they're going to be making within the next month. In this case, one was a commentary on a plan for development, and the other is an announcement of something that is already almost fully developed for testing and slated for an almost immediately upcoming push.


Yeah I know, and still, if they say there will be a different combat system, it probably will be a departure from the current one, just like with the progression system.

But either way, there are experience points and levels, so I'm kind of expecting a same kind of difference as with normal leveling system vs. XIV's leveling system. Not "completely reworked from the ground up", but enough to see that there are significant differences.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#49 May 30 2010 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I would expect that the "new" system will borrow heavily from concepts used in the initial testing but in terms of pace and flow it will be quite different.


So we're in agreement then? because that's more or less what I was saying...I don't think it'll be that drastic a change, it'll most likely flow better and speed up a bit but since this game is based around party play as well I wouldn't expect it to speed up too much either and it really shouldn't, not like its that slow to begin with.
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#50 May 30 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Default
SolidMack wrote:
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I would expect that the "new" system will borrow heavily from concepts used in the initial testing but in terms of pace and flow it will be quite different.


So we're in agreement then? because that's more or less what I was saying...I don't think it'll be that drastic a change, it'll most likely flow better and speed up a bit but since this game is based around party play as well I wouldn't expect it to speed up too much either and it really shouldn't, not like its that slow to begin with.


No, I don't think we're in agreement. I think you're being hopeful and ignoring what has been said. You're talking tweaks. SE is talking a few weeks of extremely vocal feedback saying that the combat in XIV, with or without lag, is terribly slow. When you have such a large segment of players repeating the same sentiment, a tweak isn't going to cut it. They need to speed it up and the main way they can do that is to cut the unnecessary delay between attacks. They could reduce damage done, increase the speed of attacks and be left with a system that is no less cerebral and fights that last just as long (if that's what SE wanted). The trend in the genre is about 1.5-2 seconds between actions and it seems to be a pretty good mix of keeping players involved and giving them time to think about what to do next without giving them so much time that they've already decided and now they have to wait to go. Giving a one action queue to all attacks is a pretty slick way to avoid the "button mashing" scenario you spoke of but at the end of the day, if SE isn't giving people something meaningful to do during those lengthy delays between attacks, they're not doing themselves any favors as a game studio by leaving them in. There's nothing cerebral about waiting.
#51 May 30 2010 at 10:54 PM Rating: Decent
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So we'll be seeing a revamped combat system when Beta hits. Cool. And what we've seen so far isn't necessarily representative of what they've been working on. Cool. And you have no further information.

And so now you're arguing over the semantics of "tweak" versus "revamp", "action mash-up" versus "boring", "cerebral" versus "mindless"......

I know it's been a slow news week, but come on people...

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