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#1 May 29 2010 at 3:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm a competitive person, and I'm sure I'm not alone in the FF community in that regard. So when I did my best in XI, yet was still light-years behind the top players in terms of gil, questions arise. Acquiring gil is the only real obstacle the game has to offer - 15/15 Skadi was fun as I enjoyed Salvage; the mythic requirements outside of Alexandrites were mostly what I was doing anyway, etc. I have every Rare/Ex drop I feel I "need," and my standards are sky high. The only thing absent is sheer gil. And I don't mean 10m, because that's want-to. I mean hundreds of millions.

Enough to buy 30,000 Alexandrites, enough to buy Dusk Gloves +1, enough to buy a Speed Belt (or God forbid I target Ninurta's Sash instead). For brevity's sake I won't go into everything that gil is needed for, but the point here is that it's easily hundreds of millions.

What makes the above a difficult reality, is when you see the players with real gil. You know the type - gil is never an obstacle for them, at all. If they want something, and gil is part of the equation, it's taken care of immediately, even if it's a truly massive amount. Even the most naive know what this means.

Bottom line - an overwhelming percentage of people with hundreds of millions either bought gil, or took it from their LS. Now, finally to my point.
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Taking this and applying it to XIV, to enjoy the game the most, will you play within the rules and try to take solace in your legitimacy? Or will the insurmountable amount of gil needed for something you're dying for, coupled with the reality of others cheating to obtain it.. ..prove too much to deal with? Would you sooner quit, or cave in and engage in the illicit activity as well?

In XI, I've had a sullen mindset for a long time - it really took shape when their Alexandrite plans were made known, and I realized it was another cop out to the rich players. Quite frankly, it broke my spirit, and to start XIV in the same way would be truly depressing.

Perhaps the happy medium is just playing through the storylines, but after being a hard core XI'er, I know I'll be missing out on so much. When I think back on FFXI, the thing that stands out first is the nightly Salvage, and how much fun endgame can be if you're doing events you like, with the right people. It might be better to slog through halfheartedly than to give up that aspect entirely. I don't know. I wish I did..
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#2 May 29 2010 at 3:54 AM Rating: Decent
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You'll definitely enjoy the game if you go in with that mindset from the start.

"How can I raise my epeen? Should I cheat for it, or should I be content with being a lesser person than those with relics?"

Some people are just good at making cash. You can lie to yourself by saying "they bought it" or "their LS helped", which certainly is the case sometimes, but just because you're not good at making gil doesn't mean others aren't.

They found their source of income and are definitely not going to reveal it to anyone else. At the same time "normal" players just think "he must buy gil!" out of jealousy or other lower form of human emotions.
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#3 May 29 2010 at 4:01 AM Rating: Decent
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There's a difference between 50 mil, and 500 mil. I'm not an idiot, I know how gil is made, and can make my share. However, I'll re-emphasize the first sentence here.

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#4 May 29 2010 at 4:06 AM Rating: Decent
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You did your best, it clearly wasn't good enough. That doesn't mean you should assume those with more gil "bought it" or "had their LS help them".

Edited, May 29th 2010 10:06am by Hyanmen
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#5 May 29 2010 at 4:18 AM Rating: Good
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In the cases I'm aware of, I know for a fact that the rich got that way from RMT and stealing from LSs. To think other than what I've stated- "an overwhelming percentage of people with hundreds of millions either bought gil, or took it from their LS," is being naive.

I do not assume, when I see someone with extreme amounts of gil, that they got it via any illegitimate means. I'll say that again. I do not assume, when I see someone with extreme amounts of gil, that they got it via any illegitimate means. However, I will likely be suspicious, based on past experiances and the realities within this game. To simply skip along and figure "Oh wow, someone with multiple relics and all the best gear, they must be amazing at making gil!" is mindnumbingly naive.
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#6 May 29 2010 at 4:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Of course those with multiple relics are most likely either buying gil or have their LS help them.

One or two relics, at this point of the game, however, is a completely different matter.

What causes your suspicions, is the reality of human nature. Just because it is possible doesn't mean that's the way it is, but it's better to assume so to make one feel better about himself.

Either way, it is too bad that you are already planning these things when it comes to XIV. Trying to be the best becomes more important than enjoying the game for what it is... but if that's how you want to do it, good luck.
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#7 May 29 2010 at 4:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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You know when I was leveling up through my days. I learned the value of my gear and the value of Gil. The truth is, you really don't need all that much Gil or top notch gear to be an effective player. There are some socially accepted norms, but even still, if you can prove that you know what you're doing, no one will ever question you.

I think that I had the best of times when I struggled to get every little ounce of performance from every piece of gear, pairing up with any possible and affordable and or oddball foods, just to reach that bar. Yes I took some criticism, but in the end having achieved level 93 cooking, understanding which foods to eat at which times, where each food caps and how far you can push a capped food before moving to the next tier, no one could question the knowledge that I'd gained and my performance proved it.

My journey also took me to find every NPC which sold anything and everything to save a pretty Gil, and also traffic goods from different areas to bring in Gil; you'd be surprised how many people actually purchase Distilled Water from the AH at 2000 Gil, when you can buy it from the Inn next door at 10Gil per stack >.< (SHH it was a secret) lol.

In being poor, I learned to be very resourceful and eventually I was able to adopt a system which made me a sustainable income. Not the 100 Millions of Gil like you speak, but a good steady 1 Million a week was definitely enough to get by.

Even after all that, I never had the top of the line gear, because in the end I didn't need it. I was performing just as competitive as everyone else with mediocre gear. Of course that's not to say that I didn't try for the gear that was fairly easy to get.

For me, the mentality is and always will be that Gear and Gil do not make good players, and I'm sure we've all had our share of those types.
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#8 May 29 2010 at 5:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
What causes your suspicions, is the reality of human nature. Just because it is possible doesn't mean that's the way it is, but it's better to assume so to make one feel better about himself.

I don't think that's quite it - if someone's better than me at something, I have no qualms about admitting it. The list isn't short, of things I fail at.

It's the probabilty that drives the suspicion. Not so much a desire to feel better about myself as it is a desire to exercise logic and reasoning. And to remain clear, it is a suspicion, not an assumption. A quote I recently came across:
RenesDescartes wrote:
It is very certain, that in times where it is impossible to discern what is true, we must look instead to what is most probable."



Hyanmen wrote:
Either way, it is too bad that you are already planning these things when it comes to XIV. Trying to be the best becomes more important than enjoying the game for what it is... but if that's how you want to do it, good luck.

I wish I had the kind of personality to genuinely not care about "being the best", but some people are different. To me, they coincide.

Kayanna wrote:
For me, the mentality is and always will be that Gear and Gil do not make good players, and I'm sure we've all had our share of those types.

I agree with what you've said, though I think it's pretty undeniable in the debate of skill vs. gear, skill & gear > either of them.

Edit - I found the quote!

Edited, May 29th 2010 7:18am by Carrilei
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#9 May 29 2010 at 5:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think that's quite it - if someone's better than me at something, I have no qualms about admitting it. The list isn't short, of things I fail at.


In this case, though, I think the issue is that they have something you don't, but you want to have.

If that something is important to you, is it harder to admit in that case? Considering that you want to be the best (at what you do?), this could be.

How do you "calculate" the probability, anyhow? I think that you have an assumption about the probability of people using their LS or buying gil, and that raises your suspicions.

I don't really know how you could apply "logic" and reasoning to it, without actually knowing how large the scope of people doing this kind of thing is. We know that people do it, but as far as logic goes, that's all we have.
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#10 May 29 2010 at 5:29 AM Rating: Good
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It may be impossible to prove that the large majority of truly rich players got there via those means, but at the same time, it would be equally impossible to prove that they didn't.

I haven't logged in for two months, and like I said, I've been mentally checked out for a long, long time. I'm looking towards XIV in terms of performance, not back at XI. Basically, I no longer have an emotional horse in this race. I don't think I'm particularly biased here - if you can't tell, I'm interested in knowing the reality, not trying to warp or dilute it.

I think the amount of gil purchased would come as a real surprise to people.. It's widespread, and you have people at the top, with serious discretionary income that purchase the better part of a billion gil. Couple this with the endless drama from endgame shells about what their leaders have done... And yes, I feel the richest players are more likely than not a product of illegitimacy. Oh, and I haven't even mentioned things like botting, which is the definition of rampant in XI.

In short, it's a perception. You try to extrapolate what you see in your little corner of your server to the rest of the server, and every server, and try to come up with your percieved reality.


It's kind of what like I heard on espnradio awhile back. They were talking about team owners, and that they were doubting these owners were all great people. The truth is, when you come to be a billionaire, you're probably stepping on and over people to get there, and it isn't all warm and fuzzy.

Are they relying on facts there? No, just an understanding of how the world works, and interjecting probability or likelihood with that.

Edited, May 29th 2010 9:36am by Carrilei
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#11 May 29 2010 at 5:53 AM Rating: Decent
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It may be impossible to prove that the large majority of truly rich players got there via there means, but at the same time, it would be equally impossible to prove that they didn't.


That is precisely my point.

But if you want to know the reality, I don't think you can follow what you feel. You should not overlook the possibility that you, despite feeling what you do, are not looking at it from an objective perspective, which you should if you want to know the reality of things.

For all you know, those human emotions might be affecting your decisions, as much as you want to believe that you are as objective as possible.

For being in the 'scene' for as long as I can remember, I can not share your feelings. On the other hand, I never wanted to get my hands on the most expensive items. You can say that I am blind for not noticing such a large-scale phenomenon, but in this case, I don't think there's a way to 'prove' or by using logic calculate the case that is most likely. We have only our perceptions of the reality to back us up, but in the end- it's not much.

(I'm not saying that I haven't seen my share of people that clearly bought gil to get their stuff, or used their LS to help, but in the big picture of things, it was only a fraction at best).
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#12 May 29 2010 at 5:55 AM Rating: Default
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Bottom line - an overwhelming percentage of people with hundreds of millions either bought gil, or took it from their LS


There's a little hole in your theory, a huge hole actually.

The people who buy or steal gil do so for one simple reason, they need it for something. Those with an excessive amount wouldn't really need it now would they? If the gil isn't being spent then it obviously wasn't needed, so what's the incentive to waste money on RMT or risk whatever by stealing/duping it from others?

#13 May 29 2010 at 6:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Raolan wrote:
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Bottom line - an overwhelming percentage of people with hundreds of millions either bought gil, or took it from their LS


There's a little hole in your theory, a huge hole actually.

The people who buy or steal gil do so for one simple reason, they need it for something. Those with an excessive amount wouldn't really need it now would they? If the gil isn't being spent then it obviously wasn't needed, so what's the incentive to waste money on RMT or risk whatever by stealing/duping it from others?


I'm not sure what you're getting at.. Who said these massive amounts of gil weren't being spent?

Edit - well to be more clear, when I said what you quoted, "hundreds of millions," I mean that they had spent the large majority of it.

Hyanmen wrote:
That is precisely my point.

But if you want to know the reality, I don't think you can follow what you feel. You should not overlook the possibility that you, despite feeling what you do, are not looking at it from an objective perspective, which you should if you want to know the reality of things.

For all you know, those human emotions might be affecting your decisions, as much as you want to believe that you are as objective as possible.

For being in the 'scene' for as long as I can remember, I can not share your feelings. On the other hand, I never wanted to get my hands on the most expensive items. You can say that I am blind for not noticing such a large-scale phenomenon, but in this case, I don't think there's a way to 'prove' or by using logic calculate the case that is most likely. We have only our perceptions of the reality to back us up, but in the end- it's not much.

(I'm not saying that I haven't seen my share of people that clearly bought gil to get their stuff, or used their LS to help, but in the big picture of things, it was only a fraction at best).


Hard to argue with that, perception v. perception. Obviously with nothing new factoring in, we'll both think what we think, and that's that. Perhaps, since you never really wanted the most expensive items, the potential bias here doesn't elude you, either.

It's frustrating when there are no facts and you feel a certain way, but that's life sometimes.

Edited, May 29th 2010 9:48am by Carrilei
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#14 May 29 2010 at 6:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, to reply to your first post, I don't see the accomplishment in 'cheating' my way through to get something rare.

If it's beyond my capabilities, I will move on and pursue things that are within my reach without having to fool myself. Of course I will try to be the best I can be, at the same time. All that is within my reach, I will try to get.

I think if you could have a mindset similar to mine, you would be able to enjoy the game more. Being the best, really is pointless if you cheated your way there. People will not look up to you. You will not get any satisfaction out of it, as much as you think you would. You will probably end up quitting either way. When you have nothing to go after anymore, it all becomes pointless and boring. You're the best... what's next? Wait for update that may or may not have something for you? What if there isn't? Wait for the update after that? And so on..
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#15 May 29 2010 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
You will not get any satisfaction out of it, as much as you think you would. You will probably end up quitting either way. When you have nothing to go after anymore, it all becomes pointless and boring. You're the best... what's next? Wait for update that may or may not have something for you? What if there isn't? Wait for the update after that? And so on..


I see what you're saying, and there is some truth to things being pointless and boring if you have everything.. But at the same time, it can also be really nice to have the stress of it alleviated, so you can just focus on the game. I experianced what that's like when I finished my Salvage set - when I didn't need anything else, I could sit back, relax, and enjoy it more.

And improvement isn't just in gear, not that I'm implying you really meant that.. But I'm sure I'd have a lot more fun fine-tuning and experimenting/testing things with everything I wanted, rather than the alternative.

If the game is strong enough, there should be a lot to keep your attention besides the actual acquisition of gear. And to be blunt, if the game is what is should or could be, a lot of this discussion is moot, since RMT would not be a significant influence. This won't happen, because SE likes their gil/rmt/etc model apparently, but I can dream~
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#16 May 29 2010 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Ultimately, I guess it boils down to one part access, another luck. FFXI's economy was pretty dismal in that those with all the wealth could pretty much ***** up the flow of everything else if they really wanted to. How they came about the cash didn't really matter.

Emphasizing fair access through leves/instances and the presence of reasonably priced NPC alternative gear can do a good job in keeping some of the insanity in check. The rest lies in that luck portion I hinted initially. Nobody likes going 0/100 on something, but going 1/1 on everything can lead to a shallow game if the challenge doesn't seem to match up to that reward.

It's not really a secret I hate Salvage, and SE came close with doing something right with Mythics until the Alexandrite requirement. Players don't like arbitrarily being gimped, nor does creating a system where it's more beneficial to leave people out strike me as wise in an MMO. If you can guarantee steady effort yields a reasonable reward, then I don't think people will be having issues with gil, drop rates, or whatever the problem that's typically tied to character progression. It's also very important to give people incentive to help others beyond warm and fuzzy feelings, lest we create another CoP or general quest/mission post-rush completion difficulty scenario.
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#17 May 29 2010 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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If the game is strong enough, there should be a lot to keep your attention besides the actual acquisition of gear.


Maybe I'm just jaded, having played FFXI for a number of years before quitting (shell too small, couldn't take the "big" stuff anymore) and WoW for a couple (go go raid grinding), but in the end, whether you're paying out of pocket to have an item made or buy the completed product or doing certain fights to get drops, isn't the goal of most major MMOs to acquire gear? Sure, there are other parts of the game that keep people hooked (crafting, fishing, exploration, etc.), but in the end the intention is the create the best character you can. Developing a character in non-gear related areas IS enjoyable, but it only takes you so far. If people want to be the "best" and take on the "hardest" content, you often have a minimum of gear needed to play your role most effectively, and generally people seem to want to acquire more gear to do those fights quicker and more efficiently.

That being said, I agree with your general principle. My account was hacked in that rash of hackings all those years ago, and I cannot brook the notion that people buy currency in any game to get ahead (and people buying it in WoW is laughable - it's so easy to make money in that game in a short amount of time that if you can't make it on your own, you shouldn't be playing) or supporting those who do. I was never a rich player in FFXI, but I was comfortable. I dreamed of a relic, and dusk +1; I had a few really expensive items (Blau Dolch for my thf, hauby+1 for my war and nin etc.) that I bought with money I earned legitimately through farming or BCNM/ENM/KS99s etc. It took me a while at times, but I always felt satisfied when I finally got those items.

I am also hoping that SE has learned their lesson. Many of the changes they made to the gear in the game with more "sidegrades" and "slight upgrades/downgrades" in different ways eliminated the need for tons of gil for basic gear. Access to decent gear was made easier, even if you still had to work pretty hard for it - ie. within Assault tag limitations, etc. If they do this from the very start, and embed a little more gil making in the Guildleve system itself, I think less players will hit they wall they did in FFXI. I'd personally not like to have to spend the literally DAYS of playtime I spent farming at lower levels to afford better gear. My first 75 took me the better part of a year because I spent so much time farming for decent gear. While I realize the Japanese philosophies about hard work and competition and all that have an impact on the game, I hope SE realizes that there is still a very strong fan base elsewhere in the world who don't enjoy grinding.
#18 May 29 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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I had a hard time keeping a good amount of gil on me when I played FFXI. But that was completely my own fault. I never found a way to make gil that was fun to me. In my head I was always thinking "Hey great I'm making gil, but I could be in a party or doing a quest or doing something NOT boring"

Now if you add to the fact that I only played for less than 10 hours a week, well, as my brother told me "You're the reason that gil sellers exist"
I can honestly say that I never bought gil. Not a single time. But I was **** sure tempted, it would have been so much easier and I wouldn't have had to deal with the "why are you still wearing that?!" Or "You should have been using X weapon since X levels ago!"


All that being as it may, I have no intention of buying gil in FFXIV either. I'm going to get out of the game what I put into it. Sure if I buy gil (which in my mind IS cheating) things would be easier. But I would know I cheated, and for me that's enough not to do it. This time around I plan on picking up a craft, and maybe I'll have to bite the bullet and put some real time into farming. Than again, maybe not. The devs have said that they plan on making gil easier to acquire. I understand that the end result will simply mean higher prices for "teh uber leet gears" So when I get enough to get those I will piece them together a little at a time.


BTW KayannaBigGrr, fantastic post! I remember deal seeking with NPCs myself.

Edited, May 29th 2010 10:55am by ReiThor
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#19 May 29 2010 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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That's one of the things I've always hated about the Everquest-era MMO.
Almost all the carrots (at the time, weapons/armor) were purchasable. Now, there's nothing wrong with finances and status having a relationship, afterall, there's no easier way to make sure money has value. But there is a problem when your carrot directly relates to the ability of a character to complete content and desire to complete content, meaning you've created a relationship between finances, the game's difficulty, and the chief motivation.

...there's asking for trouble, and then there's putting a friggin' mint on it's pillow.


I think there's a few things that'll help to suck out the desire to buy gil in the first place.
Mostly because it separates the above, the game's difficulty, the motivators, and the finances are still related but not completely unified.

The motivators are separated out from finances because in XIV NM drops (and I think leve rewards?) are all planned to be EX/soulbound. So we know automatically there's going to be a good chunk of the carrots that are outside the financial structure. Motivators are separated out from difficulty because in the modern day MMO non-combat related things are considered motivators. These items range from pure fluff to vaguely utilitarian, and can be made to be external to finances (ala titles) or internal to finances (ala furniture) as the devs see fit.

Difficulty is separated out from finances and motivators largely on the basis of the combat itself. Nowadays, difficulty is less a measure of your items and more a measure of you. So whatever ends up happening on the armor/weapon front isn't the alpha and omega of your probability of success. Also, games that allow you to select your difficulty, are less likely to create the sort of brick walls that warm people up to the idea of cheating in the first place.


/edit: Ninja post revamp, go!



Edited, May 29th 2010 12:27pm by Zemzelette
#20 May 29 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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While I do understand your points about RMT, I think that you have looked past the main point if your looking for legal reasons to stay happy and extremely rich at the same time, in game.

In both MMO's I have played. WoW and FFxi. Popularity (The servers knowledge of who you are), and rare crafting skills/plans are the key to being legally rich. In WoW, one of the most popular Paladins on Blackhand (Snowhammer of Avatar Corda) won multiple rolls for rare crafting items. Its was really a monopoly for months that he had on many rare items, and after some counseling from others in guild, we convinced him to make millions from it. He was against it at first, being as humble as his is, but after a bit he saw the money coming in and was hooked. He had hundreds of millions at a time when getting a couple million was retarded hard. In FFxi, the same exact kind of thing. I knew another person who the whole **** sever seemed to know, and his blacksmithing skills were second to none on the server, thus, he was even able to just give me my first million gil in ffxi, which I believe I spent half on a air ship pass, if you can believe.

The key to being legally rich in MMO's is Popularity, Availability and Rare Crafting Skills/Plans. You cant not be rich, unless you don't charge for your service like "Snowhammer" was having moral problems with..... Cause in the end, what you're doing is raking in all the easy gil/gold that the cheaters are buying to get your rare items crafted. Its dirty, but all business is dirty when it comes to being rich.

Edited, May 29th 2010 8:55am by Daggit
#21 May 29 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
Carrilei wrote:
In the cases I'm aware of, I know for a fact that the rich got that way from RMT and stealing from LSs. To think other than what I've stated- "an overwhelming percentage of people with hundreds of millions either bought gil, or took it from their LS," is being naive.

I do not assume, when I see someone with extreme amounts of gil, that they got it via any illegitimate means. I'll say that again. I do not assume, when I see someone with extreme amounts of gil, that they got it via any illegitimate means. However, I will likely be suspicious, based on past experiances and the realities within this game. To simply skip along and figure "Oh wow, someone with multiple relics and all the best gear, they must be amazing at making gil!" is mindnumbingly naive.


How gil will factor in to XIV is unknown at present. Alpha testers are earning gil and the ones who know how to manage it are just fine (and happily poking fun at the people who waste it and then cry that they don't have enough.) SE is also planning to increase the amount of gil entering the economy for the next round of testing. That, however, is only the testing and SE could just as easily reduce the amount of gil dropped from mobs and earned from levequests for retail release. What is at issue isn't even so much how much you can earn, but how much you ever really need to spend. Alpha testers have access to only a trivial array of crafted gear...their upgrades are coming largely from NPCs, which is common in MMO testing.

I don't expect to see such a heavy enphasis on gil in XIV compared to XI. The devs know that the economic situation in XI was broken, especially relative to what they're trying to offer with XIV. I would expect that if you go into XIV with the same mindset towards earning gil that you had in XI, you'll be just fine.
#22 May 29 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
How gil will factor in to XIV is unknown at present. Alpha testers are earning gil and the ones who know how to manage it are just fine (and happily poking fun at the people who waste it and then cry that they don't have enough.) SE is also planning to increase the amount of gil entering the economy for the next round of testing. That, however, is only the testing and SE could just as easily reduce the amount of gil dropped from mobs and earned from levequests for retail release. What is at issue isn't even so much how much you can earn, but how much you ever really need to spend. Alpha testers have access to only a trivial array of crafted gear...their upgrades are coming largely from NPCs, which is common in MMO testing.

I don't expect to see such a heavy enphasis on gil in XIV compared to XI. The devs know that the economic situation in XI was broken, especially relative to what they're trying to offer with XIV. I would expect that if you go into XIV with the same mindset towards earning gil that you had in XI, you'll be just fine.

Agreed that it's the amount needed that matters, in relation to how "easy" or "difficult" it is to earn gil.

I hope you're right, but I can't help but notice their actions haven't exactly backed up this line of thinking. They made mythics require over 100m after they saw what the gil requirement with relics had produced. They've never made an impact on Imperial Wootz Ingot prices, despite obvious answers like ichor from Einherjar, etc. Their actions in XI over the last few years don't exactly portend what you've said.
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#23 May 29 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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Its sort of odd for me to say this but I 'liked' the way things worked in FFXI. Its a great example of a free market system in economics and all the things that can go wrong and right that come along with that.

In XI, just like real life, there will always be people who know how to make money faster and easier then others. They might do it in a legit way or a illegal way...just like real life. They may know where to take the gil they made and invest it in something bound to make more gil or even try to control the market and hold a monopoly on certain items. In a truly free market...all is fair in money making.

It why most real life places make laws and limits. Preventing price fixing and monopoly's and such...but XI did not do this 100% of the time of course and its what made it sort of un-fair for others...while insanely lucrative for a corporation run like LS.

Heck, on of the most POWERFUL things you can do to make money is control the perception of the player base. How do I mean? well when you get the whole community to believe they 'need' a item...and you control the supply of that item...you can set your own super high price and make a none stop profit since people think they 'need it'.

Back when Sushi had first started getting popular, me and one other guy made tons of gill really fast since I started supplying him with rice and fish and he could make it, and we would split what was sold. Once more competition started making more sushi of course our profit went down...but we made alot of fast cash first.

Long story short? Economics is tricky...but oh so fun to manipulate.
#24 May 29 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I encourage everyone to buy gil from the beginning in XIV. Focus on winning those Darwin Awards and you'll go down in history. I imagine this time around Square Enix is going to be more lenient on the gil, but who really wants an easy game? It isn't hard to make gil in Final Fantasy XI, you just have to know how to do it since it is an open market. Supply and demand, make contracts with crafters; sell items on multiple characters at a time.

But yeah, pretty sure all gilsellers/gilbuyers will be curb stomped from the beginning now that they know what to look for. I wouldn't even think about doing it personally.
#25 May 29 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
Carrilei wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
How gil will factor in to XIV is unknown at present. Alpha testers are earning gil and the ones who know how to manage it are just fine (and happily poking fun at the people who waste it and then cry that they don't have enough.) SE is also planning to increase the amount of gil entering the economy for the next round of testing. That, however, is only the testing and SE could just as easily reduce the amount of gil dropped from mobs and earned from levequests for retail release. What is at issue isn't even so much how much you can earn, but how much you ever really need to spend. Alpha testers have access to only a trivial array of crafted gear...their upgrades are coming largely from NPCs, which is common in MMO testing.

I don't expect to see such a heavy enphasis on gil in XIV compared to XI. The devs know that the economic situation in XI was broken, especially relative to what they're trying to offer with XIV. I would expect that if you go into XIV with the same mindset towards earning gil that you had in XI, you'll be just fine.

Agreed that it's the amount needed that matters, in relation to how "easy" or "difficult" it is to earn gil.

I hope you're right, but I can't help but notice their actions haven't exactly backed up this line of thinking. They made mythics require over 100m after they saw what the gil requirement with relics had produced. They've never made an impact on Imperial Wootz Ingot prices, despite obvious answers like ichor from Einherjar, etc. Their actions in XI over the last few years don't exactly portend what you've said.


SE has to cater to its existing playerbase with XI. With XIV, they've got the freedom to cater to an entirely different marketplace. In this case, based on what they've said, their market consists of upwards of 20 million potential FF fans. As the genre has evolved, we've seen that excessive grinding only appeals to a small portion of the MMO demographic (outside of Korea) and SE has to aim even bigger than that. I expect to see some pretty tasty rewards to be found at the end of some pretty substantial grinds, but I also expect to see the majority of the game accesible to people who may be interested in playing to win, but not at the expense of hours every week for years for the sake of achieving a single goal.
#26 May 29 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
the mythic requirements outside of Alexandrites were mostly what I was doing anyway

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Enough to buy 30,000 Alexandrites

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it really took shape when their Alexandrite plans were made known

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They made mythics require over 100m

Ah, yes. The "******** about the Mythic Taking Too Long" part of the mythic upgrade--a side-quest to Duties, Tasks and Deeds which does not appear in the quest log.

When you get to the ZNM trophies, you will look back on 30k gems and laugh. I know, it sounds stupid now, but you will see. Or maybe you won't.
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#27 May 29 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh, it's not that bad if you're working on it along with everything else that's required. It's not like you finish your rocks and exclaim "Well, now I should get started on my trophies!" Do ZNM, find out who else is, and offer to buy them. I have Tinnin's Fang, had the option to buy Sarameya's Hide.. And I haven't really been trying since I know I'm not about to come up with 110 million gil before XIV.

What would suck, is if you d/c during the fight, and lose them... I'd give you that much.

And by the way, it has nothing to do with "taking too long." It's the exact opposit.. The other parts of the quests will take time - someone can RMT their way to 30,000 rocks very quickly.

Edited, May 29th 2010 10:54pm by Carrilei
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#28 May 30 2010 at 4:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I've been playing FFXI since soon after it came out in America. When I first started out, it was all about adventuring, adventures, having fun with friends, exploring new places, leveling new jobs, it was just fun. But some time down the road it went from that to this stupid political mindless online ******* contest filled with drama anger and greed. I was a big part of that for many years, got all the bells and whistles you could imagine and eventually got out of it. These days I play just to enjoy missions, to do small events with friends, to level up, and lately I've been recapturing that very adventure I once had. That is what the game is about. Right now, when I look back at FFXI my good memories aren't of how I obtained an Ace's Helm, a Adaman Hauberk, A Dalmatica, or a relic. No, I look back and think of when I first tried to find my way to jeuno, and trying to figure out how to unlock Paladin.

I think online competition is one of the most pointless and useless things in the world, having been a part of it for many years. A video game should be an adventure, something fun you do with good company and enjoy. I'll be more than happy to be proficient at it and put effort into it, but I will never get caught up in all the stupidity and immaturity of worrying about what person I've never met has how many more pixels than I do. Life is too short to waste like that, and I really do wish I could get back the years I poured into end game.

TL;DR stop and smell the roses. It's more fun to dance4 and explore than it is to brag about how large your Epeen has grown.
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#29 May 30 2010 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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EndlessJourney wrote:
I've been playing FFXI since soon after it came out in America. When I first started out, it was all about adventuring, adventures, having fun with friends, exploring new places, leveling new jobs, it was just fun. But some time down the road it went from that to this stupid political mindless online ******* contest filled with drama anger and greed. I was a big part of that for many years, got all the bells and whistles you could imagine and eventually got out of it. These days I play just to enjoy missions, to do small events with friends, to level up, and lately I've been recapturing that very adventure I once had. That is what the game is about. Right now, when I look back at FFXI my good memories aren't of how I obtained an Ace's Helm, a Adaman Hauberk, A Dalmatica, or a relic. No, I look back and think of when I first tried to find my way to jeuno, and trying to figure out how to unlock Paladin.

I think online competition is one of the most pointless and useless things in the world, having been a part of it for many years. A video game should be an adventure, something fun you do with good company and enjoy. I'll be more than happy to be proficient at it and put effort into it, but I will never get caught up in all the stupidity and immaturity of worrying about what person I've never met has how many more pixels than I do. Life is too short to waste like that, and I really do wish I could get back the years I poured into end game.

TL;DR stop and smell the roses. It's more fun to dance4 and explore than it is to brag about how large your Epeen has grown.

While I'm sure we all understand what you are saying, Endless, you must remember that everyone has their own idea of what's fun. For the more competitive gamers, because being competitive in any area is completely normal and instinctual, endgame is the reason they play the game and where they find the most fun. You might think otherwise, but that doesn't mean other players are wasting their time or stupid for doing what THEY think is fun. This is where you are mixing opinion in with fact a little too liberally.
#30 May 30 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think it's impossible to both get what you want, and smell the flowers at the same time. That's my goal, anyway.
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#31 May 30 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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[quoteHyanmen]They found their source of income and are definitely not going to reveal it to anyone else. At the same time "normal" players just think "he must buy gil!" out of jealousy or other lower form of human emotions.[/quote]

This, more or less. I wouldn't be surprised if any honest player with enough spare time to try and completely top off their wallet would be banned for suspected RMT.
#32 May 30 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think it's impossible to both get what you want, and smell the flowers at the same time. That's my goal, anyway.


I think Kayanna rebutted this nicely so I won't bother parroting him/her.

But my opinion on the subject is that there will always be dishonest and corrupt players. I can't say I knew any multiple relic holders from XI who didn't exploit others in some way, but I did know many others who managed to become 100 gillionaires and obtain relics/mythics through legitimate means. How do I know for certain? Well, I knew some of them IRL; others showed little if any evidence to the contrary that they were dishonest people. Given how corrupt some of the playerbase was, these people certainely earned my respect for succeeding in the game through fair and legitimate means.

Bottom line is that you can be prosperous and rich in an MMORPG without resorting to questionable behaviour. Will it take more work? Certainly. But I believe the dignity you preserve in the end is well worth it.
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#33 May 30 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Playing for adventure and all that is fine, but I don't think there is anything inherently bad about competition.

It might be seen as a bit of a 'who's got the bigger e-peen' but competing can be really fun. A party of melees trying to show off who can do the highest damage and continuing to try and one up one-another sort of forces them to become 'better' at what they are doing.

Its why they have to make super hard to get gear, to give those people who seek that competition something to well...do!

But those super hard things can be both beneficial for the competer and the adventurer. A super hard quest that has a good story and a good reword? The adventurer might know what to do and where to go and wants to see the story, but is not really 'strong enough' to do it alone. While the Competer might not care about the details...but they can hit hard and want the reword. In this way the two work as a pair, and everyone can go home happy (even if the competer can sometimes be a bit of a jerk)
#34 May 30 2010 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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To be fair, it's not entirely about competing with others. I fell in love with a job class (as well as the expansion), and even if I were the only one playing (not a plausible hypothetical, but..).. I'd still want to see the Quicksilver I got years ago come to fruition. I have been able to start the quests, but I'll never complete them, and I'll never get to face Balrahn in Nyzul Isle.

I put everything into one job class, but I feel like I didn't get to experiance everything I should've.
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#35 May 30 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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My answer to the topic would be simple: "The Smart Way to Play" (IMHO)is to create a character you feel a connection to, choose a job you find enjoyable to play, find a group of like-minded adventurers that share your goals, and hope the content doesn't run dry.


Carrilei wrote:
I put everything into one job class, but I feel like I didn't get to experiance everything I should've.



I can certainly sympathize with that feeling, because I don't think many people in XI ever accomplished all of their highest goals. Not that I consider that a purely bad thing. I for one find it infinitely preferable to know there's interesting content I'll never complete rather than play a game where the requirements to the "ultimate content" are low enough that you "hardcore to the core" types suck through any new updates hours after release and spend another month in town with your thumbs up your butts XD.

Some of XI's endgame gear was insanely hard to get. It required the long term effort of a sizeable group of skilled people to get a single piece completed. Weekly spawns of beasts with highly coveted gear that often didn't actually drop what you needed. The insane amount of Gil needed for some of the activities you listed. I'm not advocating any of those mechanics return (so put the keyboard down, Aurelius ;P). All I'm saying is that I hope when you leave XIV, it's because other interests/responsibilities/hobbies/FFXVII draw you out. I sure hope it doesn't come because you were simply flat out bored. That's got to be worse.
#36 May 30 2010 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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ascorbic wrote:
I can certainly sympathize with that feeling, because I don't think many people in XI ever accomplished all of their highest goals. Not that I consider that a purely bad thing. I for one find it infinitely preferable to know there's interesting content I'll never complete rather than play a game where the requirements to the "ultimate content" are low enough that you "hardcore to the core" types suck through any new updates hours after release and spend another month in town with your thumbs up your butts XD.

I know and agree with what you're saying, but I think the structure of FFXI is all wrong to have this sort of thing. While there are (hopefully..) some truly rich XI'ers who have done it the right way, there are far too many who haven't. The system in place not only requires insane amounts of gil, but then when people break the rules because of it, there's no punishment for it. It's a major double-failure.

I see it as comparable to the free trials. They finally got rid of them, since they were being used by far more RMT than legitimate players. It was the only logical thing to do. The relic/mythic/most expensive items in the game group is, in my opinion, compromised to a similar extent. Thus I really can't come to respect it - the best items should go to the best players, some combination of ability and commitment or dedication. I hope XIV finds a way for this to happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.

ascorbic wrote:
All I'm saying is that I hope when you leave XIV, it's because other interests/responsibilities/hobbies/FFXVII draw you out. I sure hope it doesn't come because you were simply flat out bored. That's got to be worse.

XVII, lol - I appreciate the thought.. Though I have a hard time envisioning myself getting bored like we've seen happen to some players, simply because I "had everything." Obtaining things is only one facet of a FF game, though admittedly it is a focal point once you progress through the story.

ascorbic wrote:
My answer to the topic would be simple: "The Smart Way to Play" (IMHO)is to create a character you feel a connection to, choose a job you find enjoyable to play, find a group of like-minded adventurers that share your goals, and hope the content doesn't run dry.

Aye.
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#37 May 31 2010 at 12:30 AM Rating: Decent
Carrilei wrote:

I see it as comparable to the free trials. They finally got rid of them, since they were being used by far more RMT than legitimate players. It was the only logical thing to do. The relic/mythic/most expensive items in the game group is, in my opinion, compromised to a similar extent. Thus I really can't come to respect it - the best items should go to the best players, some combination of ability and commitment or dedication. I hope XIV finds a way for this to happen, but I wouldn't bet on it.


The easiest way to go about doing that would be to revamp the system so that you can't buy the items you need in order to complete the process. If Dynamis currency, for example, had been Ex, it would have forced players to earn it legitimately (or stir up whole extra mountains of loot drama). Same goes for any grind that involves acquiring substantial quantities of materials. Personally, I'd rather see the grind replaced by challenge. I've said it before but it's worth repeating: reward me for success, not mind numbing repetition. I don't mind running and re-running content trying for gear drops and walking away empty handed because the RNG didn't favor me that day, but when you couple RNG with a mandated obscene grind and the option to skirt the rules to bypass it, people are going to cheat. And it's not necessary to design the game that way.
#38 May 31 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Default
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ascorbic wrote:
I can certainly sympathize with that feeling, because I don't think many people in XI ever accomplished all of their highest goals. Not that I consider that a purely bad thing. I for one find it infinitely preferable to know there's interesting content I'll never complete rather than play a game where the requirements to the "ultimate content" are low enough that you "hardcore to the core" types suck through any new updates hours after release and spend another month in town with your thumbs up your butts XD.

Some of XI's endgame gear was insanely hard to get. It required the long term effort of a sizeable group of skilled people to get a single piece completed. Weekly spawns of beasts with highly coveted gear that often didn't actually drop what you needed. The insane amount of Gil needed for some of the activities you listed. I'm not advocating any of those mechanics return (so put the keyboard down, Aurelius ;P). All I'm saying is that I hope when you leave XIV, it's because other interests/responsibilities/hobbies/FFXVII draw you out. I sure hope it doesn't come because you were simply flat out bored. That's got to be worse.


"Hardcore" people who got most of those things, like Relics, Mythics, etc, sacrificed one thing or another. You can sit here and tell me "But they like to play that way" or that "Nuh uhh" but they sacrificed one of two things every time, I know because I've done it, people who've been around it and done it know it as well. You either sacrifice other people's time, or you sacrifice your own, to a unhealthy amount. Basically, you either ***** people over or do them unfairly in one way or another (taking more than you rightfully should, using a linkshell bank, etc) or you sacrifice so much of your real life that you end up unhealthy. As in, you sacrifice the things it warns you not to (that disclaimer is just to cover their *** from lawsuits, they know **** well what they are doing) like school, jobs, friends, etc.

If some people want to be "So hardcore" that they feel the need to play in these unhealthy increments of time or to do others immorally then I guess they can go @#%^ themselves or find another game. I'm sick and **** tired of hearing these illogical and stupid excuses that I heard in FFXI. There's no "Special person" or "Super hardcore" person that these systems are right for, just people who are willing to sacrifice more time than is sanely healthy, or others who will do things an underhanded way. We are all gamers, after awhile, we will all become skilled at something. It's not like some people magically have more skill than others.

What can square enix do to solve this and keep people playing and interested? Two words...

New Content

Keep giving people new things to do, keep them interested, keep things fresh, and you will get to see who's good, who is proficient, and even who will waste too much of their time, without feeling like there's content you can't experience because you are a healthy and sane individual with some morals.

Edited, May 30th 2010 11:38pm by EndlessJourney
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