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#1 May 31 2010 at 11:55 PM Rating: Good
Mostly gone are the days of us making stuff up in lieu of absence of information, because well, there has been information. Sometimes I sort of miss it. For most things now, we can't really hypothesize or even fancifully imagine because we basically have an idea how it's going to work.

Well in light of the most recent news, that's not true with combat anymore. So, I'm going to take this moment for a last fanciful idea of something I think might be a fun system for combat.

In most MMOs, hit rating is an important stat. In order to hurt things, you need to hit them. It is also generally a fairly stagnant stat, consisting of gaining points in hit raising your accuracy vs opponents avoidance reducing it.

In final fantasy, its a hugely important stat. You need a lot to consistently hit raid level bosses. People pay a premium on food with hit on it to raise their hit for parties and raiding.

TL;DR warning, the next paragraph is just a rant about a weird WoW mechanic, feel free to skip it.
WoW has one of the most bizarre hit rating systems I know of. First you have hit rating, which you get from gear (you get everything from gear in WoW, they're all stat objects that fit in slot X. Armor is not for armor except on tanks. (As a side, Dragon age had one of the best armor systems I've seen in a long time). However, how much of this hit you need is actually based on your own level. The higher level you are, the more you need to raise a % of hit. Not the enemy level, your own level. But that's ok, because hit doesn't measure what you think it does anyways. Hit is how accurate you are against a mob not trying to avoid you at all. It's basically just made as a stat you need to gain in order to do good. Expertise on the other hand reduces the chance an enemy will dodge or block your attacks. It's what you usually think of hit as. The reason they did it this way (I think) is because it's hard to balance DPS if they're standing behind a mob where the mob can't block them, so they needed to create a stat that people had to gain in order to do more DPS. (note enemies can still dodge you from behind so you also need expertise) Hit is so you, super hero, slayer of fiends of legend, don't miss the blind side of a barn. Apparently more skill means less accuracy, or something.
/TL;DR

Anyways, I've thought of an idea where your hit rating is constantly changing depending on situation. In most games, it's pretty stagnant during a fight. Sure, there might be abilities a mob uses to reduce your hit, or abilities you use to rate it, but it's still basically stat X vs stat Y. What if we made that more situational?

I present the "Recklessness system"

Imagine a system where hit rating constantly changed depending on situation in the fight. If the mob is in ready status, they are harder to hit because they are ready to dodge or block. However, after an enemy attack, they are easier to hit for a moment, meaning timing your attacks can raise your accuracy.

Also, there is a penalty for missing attacks. The penalty is dependent on your weapon. If you're using fist weapons, it might be pretty small, maybe a delay as you're off balanced from missing, meaning the risk of attacking more recklessly is just that you hit less. If you're using a big 2-handed weapon, it might be larger, unbalance, reducing your defenses for a short time, etc, meaning reckless attacking will leave you open to counter attacks.

What this would do it make it important *how* you fight. If you're using a big weapon, you might have some small strikes, maybe a pommel strike that unbalances your enemy and reduces their evasion temporarily so you can connect with your big strike. Also, many abilities would be able to be charged up for more accurate strikes, i.e. sacrificing speed for accuracy. This also makes how you fight more dependent on what you are fighting. In FFXI, if you are going after high evasion mobs, you have to gear for it, but you basically fight the same way. In WoW there's literally no difference in your gear. However, under this system, *how* you fight would change depending on what you are fighting. Some mobs may be high evasion, but less penalty, some low evasion with big penalty, some high evasion with big penalty, etc. The fight tempo would change according to that.

The reason for this is because it causes both accuracy and speed to be dependent on how you fight. During the fight, the 'tempo' will change depending on what is going on. It sounds like there will be more group vs group fights, so it may come down to dps(DD) worrying about being attacked and having to slow down their tempo in order to focus on defense a bit, dodging an enemy attack and counter attacking when the enemy is unbalanced. People will do quick jabbing strikes in order to not get unbalanced and save their killing blows for when the mob is incapacitated.

A second part of this would be how you distribute your stat points. Do you spend them on damage and use a fighting style that requires you to be patient and strike when you have an opening, do you raise your evasion so you can get more opportunities to counter attack for heavy strikes? Do you raise your accuracy so you can attack more recklessly but for less damage yet more strikes and less chance of missing?

If it turns out that dps(DD) never have to worry about defending in normal circumstances (in FFXI or WoW, dps(DD) only need to worry about defensive abilities if things are going wrong in most cases), than perhaps there could be a system that on particularly unbalancing misses, an enemy gets a free counter strike.
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#2 Jun 01 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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If this system includes sword-chucks then I am interested.
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#3 Jun 01 2010 at 1:16 AM Rating: Decent
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For the Pugilist, Jarring Strike, and Haymaker Weapon Skills can only be used after evading, while the Featherfoot job skill's effect fades once you do evade something. So, they've already got something similar in effect as far as your actions effecting what happens after.

I can't see why they couldn't put something similar in effect for landing certain attacks or missing. Maybe a fumbles/critical hit chart or something... natural 20 a go go lol

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#4 Jun 01 2010 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
LebargeX wrote:
For the Pugilist, Jarring Strike, and Haymaker Weapon Skills can only be used after evading, while the Featherfoot job skill's effect fades once you do evade something. So, they've already got something similar in effect as far as your actions effecting what happens after.

I can't see why they couldn't put something similar in effect for landing certain attacks or missing. Maybe a fumbles/critical hit chart or something... natural 20 a go go lol



Interesting. Dark Ages of Camelot had a system like this. It made combat that much more interactive.

What I'd like to see is something that can be built on this. In the example listed, you evade > Jarring Strike > 2nd move which requires JS to be used first > 3rd, super strong move in this combo.
#5 Jun 01 2010 at 1:39 AM Rating: Decent
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
For the Pugilist, Jarring Strike, and Haymaker Weapon Skills can only be used after evading, while the Featherfoot job skill's effect fades once you do evade something. So, they've already got something similar in effect as far as your actions effecting what happens after.

I can't see why they couldn't put something similar in effect for landing certain attacks or missing. Maybe a fumbles/critical hit chart or something... natural 20 a go go lol



Interesting. Dark Ages of Camelot had a system like this. It made combat that much more interactive.

What I'd like to see is something that can be built on this. In the example listed, you evade > Jarring Strike > 2nd move which requires JS to be used first > 3rd, super strong move in this combo.


LOTRO's guardian functions similar to that. You have abilities that are only available for a limited time after you block, for example, and after using one of those another set of abilities is made available for a limited time. It makes for a reasonably dynamic flow since different abilities are better suited for different situations. Add in the fact that there's another entirely different set of tiered abilities that become available after you parry and it can make for some fun situations trying to alternate between the different sets before the timers in each expire.
#6 Jun 01 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Decent
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
LebargeX wrote:
For the Pugilist, Jarring Strike, and Haymaker Weapon Skills can only be used after evading, while the Featherfoot job skill's effect fades once you do evade something. So, they've already got something similar in effect as far as your actions effecting what happens after.

I can't see why they couldn't put something similar in effect for landing certain attacks or missing. Maybe a fumbles/critical hit chart or something... natural 20 a go go lol



Interesting. Dark Ages of Camelot had a system like this. It made combat that much more interactive.

What I'd like to see is something that can be built on this. In the example listed, you evade > Jarring Strike > 2nd move which requires JS to be used first > 3rd, super strong move in this combo.


LOTRO's guardian functions similar to that. You have abilities that are only available for a limited time after you block, for example, and after using one of those another set of abilities is made available for a limited time. It makes for a reasonably dynamic flow since different abilities are better suited for different situations. Add in the fact that there's another entirely different set of tiered abilities that become available after you parry and it can make for some fun situations trying to alternate between the different sets before the timers in each expire.



I would love to see something like this in XIV. This is bringing back my DAoC memories, lol. Never played LOTRO but it sounds very similar.

There were also moves that had to be done from the side and from behind, which sorta sounds like the general idea of what SE has in mind, based off that range illustration they did.

*edit*

I still really don't understand how DAoC died out the way it did. They did battlegrounds right, classes were a lot of fun, and RvR was a blast. Smiley: confused

Edited, Jun 1st 2010 12:52am by Osarion
#7 Jun 01 2010 at 5:39 AM Rating: Default
Aion is like that also. There are some moves that can only be used after a successful block, or parry. They also have some chain skills, that can only be used if the triggering attack lands. You really have to pay attention if you want to use your full range of skills.
#8 Jun 01 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Default
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While this kind of thing sounds awesome, I think we should try to keep the unnecessary hype to minimum.

Because when SE reveals their system, and it's nothing like this and in the worst case inferior to what awesome things we've thought about, we're inevitably disappointed.

So we should try to just be patient and see what they come up with. It could very well be something like this :).
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#9 Jun 01 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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If it were something like this then I would hope your character's blocking isn't very complicated. If it is then fighting becomes a "Who's going to make the first move" boring waiting game. Solo-ing will become a chore. Don't get me wrong, I love the praying mantis fighting style IRL, but I'd hate the fighting in FFXIV to be "who blinks first".


Then again a couple of posters have named games where the same kind of system is there and seems to work just fine. I've never played them so I can't say.
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#10 Jun 01 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Nice idea, but it seems to involve completely redesigning *most* of the XIV battle system we've seen so far... so I wouldn't hold my breath for it.
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#11 Jun 01 2010 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
Onionthiefx wrote:
Nice idea, but it seems to involve completely redesigning *most* of the XIV battle system we've seen so far... so I wouldn't hold my breath for it.


Hiromichi Tanaka wrote:
Komoto told the testers before alpha started that the tempo of battle is something we're looking at. When beta test starts, we will be implementing a completely different battle system, practically remade from the ground up. We weren't planning on using the current battle system in the first place, but we didn't want players to wait until beta, so we explained the situation and opened the test.



:3
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#12 Jun 01 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Default
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If they're going to use reaction time as a factor I just hope they make the trigger time long enough, or make blocks and dodges obvious enough.

Having to trigger an ability within .25 seconds of successfully blocking an attack that, among the various cluttered flashes of a full party beating on a mob, I might not realize I blocked, I'm going to get annoyed very quickly.

I don't mind them speeding up the combat a bit but if they turn XIV into a twitch game I will be most displeased.
#13 Jun 01 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm guessing that you'll be able to filter your chat log in such a way that it will tell you when you evade an attack. That way, you should be able to see exactly what's happening to your character and what abilities to use and when to use them.
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Character: Urzol Thrush
Server: Ultros
FC: The Kraken Club

Outshined

Teneleven wrote:
We secretly replaced your tank wemelchor with Foldgers Crystal's. Let's see what happens.

#14 Jun 01 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Default
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I like the idea. As a few people have said, it sounds like there are alot of abilities that seem to suggest really paying attention to how you are fighting as well as the position of the enemy.

Like the Gladiators 'Spinstroke' attack which is more effective when the enemy is not targeting you. Or Lancer's 'Feint' attack which can only be used after evading an attack...while it also ensures your next attack will land, meaning you want to set up a really strong low accuracy move to be used along side Feint.

And if we have these abilities...the mobs will probably have something like these or 'worse' moves, meaning you want to be very careful of missing a mob and being aware of where they are relative to yourself.
#15 Jun 01 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I see what you're saying digital, but it's almost TOO different from what we've seen. Here's to hopin'. ^^
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