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#52 Jun 05 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Default
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This company fails at communicating, at least with its consumers in the West.


Communicating in the "western way" got many of the modern MMO's killed.

Would you be surprised if I said our expectations are flawed? We want fluff, and I can't blame SE for not providing us with it.
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#53 Jun 05 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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This company fails at communicating, at least with its consumers in the West.


Communicating in the "western way" got many of the modern MMO's killed.


Care to elaborate? Or you just wanna let that one dangle cryptically? I mean, I assume you're referring to companies promising the moon and failing to deliver. SE won't even talk to us in English.

Quote:
Would you be surprised if I said our expectations are flawed? We want fluff, and I can't blame SE for not providing us with it.


I'm not surprised, because you're clearly insane. Yeah, fluff would be great, but that's not it. It's that this company treats its western customers like an afterthought. It's a lack of respect and it makes it easy to dislike them. FFXI was the easiest subscription I ever canceled. Well, the decision to cancel it was easy, the actual process was a hassle. I know, I know, that's just how they do things in Japan.



Edited, Jun 5th 2010 12:07pm by Barkingturtle
#54 Jun 05 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Default
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Eske wrote:
I'm not really speaking to SE's online games, but rather their console ones here. Despite their high sales, I think that the company has been gradually alienating their NA demographic. Their games have stubbornly stuck to Japanese cultural memes, which don't resonate with an NA audience. It wasn't as much of a problem back when their graphics were limited to sprites, but now aspects like bishonen characters or anime stereotypes are a lot easier to pin down in their games.

FFXIII really drove a lot of this home for me. I loved the games graphics, but as I played it, it became increasingly apparent that I could not identify with any of the game's characters, nor the particulars of its plot. I highly doubt I'll be buying FFXV, for those reasons. Things seem to be going in the wrong direction in all those regards, a trend I'd wager will be exacerbated with each release. My habit of buying each subsequent FF release without a second thought has ended. And I don't think that I'm alone in that feeling.

Now, that's not to say that there's anything inherently wrong about SE focusing on their Japanese audience, but I don't think that SE wants to intentionally limit itself to that market. If they truly want to be a global force, then they need to start acting the part. Get a larger international presence on their development team, y'know? Addressing our NA FFXIV communities would really help them in this regard. As I see it, it's as much to their benefit as it is to ours, and therefore, I don't believe that we need to "earn" their participation, as you alluded to, Aur.

I think in the coming years we're going to see SE lose a lot of steam to "western" MMO's (which are beginning to rival SE's products in terms of graphical prowess and storytelling ability) in the coming years.


JRPGs have been known for decades to be vastly inferior game systems. in terms of game balance and mechanical sophistication, JRPGs have consistently demonstrated a glaring lack of such.

the japanese concept of "role play" has simply never existed, and character development or storyline (in a cinematic sense, since players are essentially limited to watching the "game" unfold) consists purely as cheap, shallow vehicles for graphical display.

JRPGs don't actually resemble RPGs in any meaningful way, and even by their own merits are demonstrating (in the face of modern gameplay understanding) that they just aren't well designed. the JRPG is phasing out, and evolving currently into more of an action/adventure genre. it's too bad they can't do that right either.

but FFXIV is an MMO, and there's a lot of good points about the asian design philosophy of MMOs.
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#55 Jun 05 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Care to elaborate?


Sure.

As you said, companies promise the moon and deliver a Sputnik. That is one issue.

Another is the fluff that most companies give the playerbase. Interviews, posts on the forums, whatever. This is all fluff in the end. It does not affect the game in any way. Only updates change the game, and that is (will be) SE's way of communicating with us. It is the the best kind of communication there is; the one that changes things. Looking at the update notes we can clearly see what they have done to the game. The rest of the communication affects nothing. They're just words. Apologizing? A way to appeal to the addicts, but at the end of the day it changes nothing. If the update is ****, it will still be. If SE wants to correct their mistake, they will do another update. If they don't, they won't.

That's not all of course, but I'm sure we'll get to the other points soon enough.

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I'm not surprised, because you're clearly insane. Yeah, fluff would be great, but that's not it. It's that this company treats its western customers like an afterthought. It's a lack of respect and it makes it easy to dislike them. FFXI was the easiest subscription I ever canceled. Well, the decision to cancel it was easy, the actual process was a hassle. I know, I know, that's just how they do things in Japan.


I'm sure you didn't know that Japanese get the same treatment as we do? Ask a JP what he thinks about SE and NA, and he'll answer "they treat the English better, JP's are just an afterthought!". It's funny, either way.

The thing is, if the Westerners care, then SE will deliver. Right now, as you said, XIV may not be in the top 5 of the most anticipated upcoming MMO's.. why do you think magazines and websites would want to interview companies like that? They want to appeal to mainstream, that is obvious. Even though we have websites like ZAM and FFXIVCore which have lots of XIV fans, the fanabse could be much larger too. In Japan the fact its Final Fantasy is enough to gather enough attention that people care and magazines report about the game. In the US? I'd say the same about Bioware and Blizzard. I'm sure if JP mags wanted to interview them they'd gladly deliver too. But not enough JP care about them.

I wish with the number of posts you have you'd have moved past the personal insults phase though.
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#56 Jun 05 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
All you're asking for is Fluff, Seriha.

Or not, some of it would just suck too.

Nothing personal.


Sorry, but passive aggressively playing the whole "The players don't know what they want" angle won't work on me.
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#57 Jun 05 2010 at 1:24 PM Rating: Default
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Sorry, but passive aggressively playing the whole "The players don't know what they want" angle won't work on me.


You can participate in the argument above, too. It's not just about that.
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#58 Jun 05 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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And if you're the same Hyan from BG, I know the argument won't get anywhere. It'd be like me expecting Kerberoz or NotASock to not be an *** here. In your case, your twitch would be riding SE and believing they can do no wrong with whatever it is they choose to bless us with. I know, being profiled sucks, doesn't it?

So, really, whether or not the JRPG is dying or DOA means crap. I can easily look back to games of old and say advertising was minimal alongside with distributor availability pushing other games more like sports titles or the latest action gimmick. You can't take the "role" part literally and in turn ***** that whatever doesn't pan out like an improv play because no matter how many paths a designer puts in for us to take, there will never be enough until AI itself can freely and randomly create scenarios based on our own random actions.

The rest of the JP rhetoric, is to some degree, pointless. I don't need an avenue for feedback for a console title. It's one and done. As long as we're paying monthly fees that pays their bills and grants them luxuries, we hold stock in the product's future. Ignore us? Fine, get XI 2.0. I'm sure a niche 200k players will love being the equivalent of those vocal, annoying Mac-loving hippie rejects that claim whatever to be the best thing ever despite another side of the market dwarfing them exponentially. Just because they can see the beauty of a system doesn't mean it's as beautiful as it can get.
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#59 Jun 05 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
Seriha wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
All you're asking for is Fluff, Seriha.

Or not, some of it would just suck too.

Nothing personal.


Sorry, but passive aggressively playing the whole "The players don't know what they want" angle won't work on me.


So then let's elaborate on it and get to something that's a bit more accurate.

You know what you want. Or at least, you think you know. And maybe you do. But here's the rub, as has been demonstrated time and again with other games, in other places, and right here in our ZAM forums... Someone gets an idea. To them, it's a great idea. It's fantastic. Bordering on brilliant. Revolutionary, even. Just one problem: they don't know enough about the genre or how things play off one another in an MMO to be able to see how that one idea could impact other people and/or other areas of the game. Either that, or they have an idea about how the ripple effect will play out and just don't care. And rarely will a player know how their brilliant idea fits with the ideas of the developers because I can assure you that the devs aren't going to be just sitting around waiting for the players to dictate to them what direction to take the game in next. Or worse, as we have seen here altogether too often, is that players will ignore that stated vision the developers have for a game and fight tooth and nail for concepts that would only serve to undermine that vision. In short, most players would just make an enormous mess of the game if their feedback was taken as seriously as some would seem to want it to be.

So okay, you may know what you want and you may or may not know or care what getting what you want could do to other areas of the game or the rest of the people you play with. And with every handful of posts in these forums we're seeing evidence that the last thing anyone around here seems to want to do is take responsibilty for their part so let me ask you something...if the devs were to implement an idea of yours that totally altered the game in other areas in a way that was nearly universally hated, would that be enough to teach you that knowing what YOU want is not the same as knowing what the rest of the community wants? It's one thing to accept feedback and consider it as an alternate set of brains to present things to the developers that they might have otherwise missed (they are still human, after all). It's another thing entirely to let the inmates run the asylum. And I can tell you straight up after having been in these forums for over a year, most of the ideas people come up with are garbage. They're unworkable for one reason or another. Either they don't fit with the developers stated vision for the game or the person coming up with the brilliant idea has failed to take into account the impact the implementtion of that idea would have elsewhere. I'm all for imagination but I'm sure you know by now that I'm largely against insisting that each and any flight of fancy warrants a spot in the game "because I think it would be cool."

There's a crazy thing about this illusion of communication. You could have a thread in a forum that has posts from a thousand individual users all advocating one idea and it would seem like a thunderous majority...until you look big picture and realize that it's 1000/several hundred thousand (if not million) and then you realize the scale. And then you realize just how important it is, unless you want to ruin the experience for yourself, to remember at all times that you're not paying for the right to design your own MMO. You're paying for the right to play an MMO designed by someone else and if you don't like it, the bottom line is that your sole recourse is to cancel your sub and move on. The more people trick themselves into thinking they're justified in proceeding with the, "SE had better do things my way or they're doing it wrong", the more disappointed they're likely to be. If something is clearly broken and SE doesn't do anything about it for several months, by all means let them have it. For all the rest of the subjective nonsense? Love it or leave it. Those, literally, are your options.

Objective scrutiny vs. cynicism.

Sadly, nobody in this thread is really addressing what information it is they would like from SE. In an attempt to give the cynics the benefit of the doubt, I thought that maybe there would be some questions here that people think might only be asked by NA/EU media and that's why it's important to them that SE expand their media involvement. When questions are put forward and there is no answer, it's usually because someone doesn't have an answer (which puts their demands on shaky ground) or because they know that providing the answer would undermine their argument (even worse). So maybe someone could be a sport and step out from the crowd and actually answer some of the questions I've asked of other people in this thread. Would go a long way to demonstrating objectivity vs. blind cynicism. Again, giving the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure none of you would be so ridiculous as to accuse SE of inadequacy simply because they aren't stroking your ego. There has to be more to it than that, no?
#60Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 05 2010 at 1:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Why do you twist my words, if I may ask?
#61 Jun 05 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sadly, nobody in this thread is really addressing what information it is they would like from SE. In an attempt to give the cynics the benefit of the doubt, I thought that maybe there would be some questions here that people think might only be asked by NA/EU media and that's why it's important to them that SE expand their media involvement. When questions are put forward and there is no answer, it's usually because someone doesn't have an answer (which puts their demands on shaky ground) or because they know that providing the answer would undermine their argument (even worse). So maybe someone could be a sport and step out from the crowd and actually answer some of the questions I've asked of other people in this thread. Would go a long way to demonstrating objectivity vs. blind cynicism. Again, giving the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure none of you would be so ridiculous as to accuse SE of inadequacy simply because they aren't stroking your ego. There has to be more to it than that, no?


They can't provide an answer they don't have, because your asking a question that's inherently unrelated.
PR is not about providing information.
#62 Jun 05 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aur, I'm not saying SE needs to listen to every idea they're given and put it in. Yes, too many cooks in the kitchen ruins the soup. Yet, too many items on the menu rarely scares away a customer. I don't think I've claimed any idea I've pimped for XI to be flawless in its original state. In actuality, I often propose something on the overpowered side, as it's better to scale it back some than to have something so grossly underwhelming that nothing ever changes. Additionally, I'd like to believe I possess empathy, so most often I am trying to see things from the big picture.



Now back to fanboi...

Quote:
Ignore us? Why should they do that? Now that would be a dumb move indeed.


Money from the haughty is no better than money from the casual. If the difference is between a million casual users and 200k others like yourself that are content with being told what you want, well, I'm sorry, but any smart business wouldn't be giving a crap about your wants if it meant diminishing their profits. Regardless, there are shades of gray between listening and not listening. I'm somewhere in them.

So, I'll save us some time for the next few hours. Go pat yourself on the back, say you're right, and report your victory to the SE overlords. Meanwhile, I should probably go back to the CoP thread in General just to see if Barrister is making an even greater elitist *** of himself in defending the level caps.
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#63Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 05 2010 at 2:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Hey, Seriha, think about this option for a second before you go back to your arrogant self (you and Aurelius are like twins, honestly):
#64 Jun 05 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quality of the game has nothing do with the style of communication?
How in the world did that worm it's way into the conversation?



#65Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 05 2010 at 2:30 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Communication can affect the quality, up to some point.
#66 Jun 05 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
Seriha wrote:
Aur, I'm not saying SE needs to listen to every idea they're given and put it in. Yes, too many cooks in the kitchen ruins the soup. Yet, too many items on the menu rarely scares away a customer. I don't think I've claimed any idea I've pimped for XI to be flawless in its original state. In actuality, I often propose something on the overpowered side, as it's better to scale it back some than to have something so grossly underwhelming that nothing ever changes. Additionally, I'd like to believe I possess empathy, so most often I am trying to see things from the big picture.


You're not understanding. It's not about gathering ideas from players as a substitute for developers. It's about listening to the feedback of players with regards to what is already in the game. Period. Nothing more. Absolutely nothing more. From time to time a dev comes across a blurb and thinks, "Hey, that's a good idea" and it winds up in the game. But it's not about everyone brainstorming for new stuff. It's not about players shaping the game. It's about players providing feedback on what the developers have done. See the difference? You aren't paying for entitlement to innovate. You're paying for the right to play a game someone else made. If it's broken, or if there are systems that irk you, by all means speak up. If you have an alternative suggestion, by all means speak up. If you don't have a problem and just have a fetish, by all means speak up. But the only thing out of those three categories a wise person would ever hope to be listened to intently is the feedback around what's broken. Period. But when players mislead themselves into thinking that their drop in the bucket of a monthly payment entitles them to innovate, their disappointment is their own fault.

And if that's the criteria for "listening", then SE is doing a **** fine job of it in the alpha. Frankly, people who are not currently testing the game and are whining about the level of communication they think they deserve but SE isn't providing are being childish. SE owes you nothing. They're accountable to you for nothing. When you pay for the retail box, then you can kvetch about communication. Until then, please just be a grown up and be patient.

Edited, Jun 5th 2010 2:10pm by Aurelius
#67 Jun 05 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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SE takes feedbacks from forums, and provides us with updates that tell us what direction the game is going. If they think something is wrong, they will fix it. If it's working as intended, they won't.



Do you really think it's so nicely cut and dry as all that?
Did it sound that easy in the article? If they don't see enough profit in your demographic that they don't staff your country's QA beyond a skeleton crew, and they don't see fit to spend any money on your PR, what makes you think your concerns have the clout to filter through middle management?







Edited, Jun 5th 2010 5:15pm by Zemzelette
#68 Jun 05 2010 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
Zemzelette wrote:
Quote:
SE takes feedbacks from forums, and provides us with updates that tell us what direction the game is going. If they think something is wrong, they will fix it. If it's working as intended, they won't.



Do you really think it's so nicely cut and dry as all that?
Did it sound that easy in the article? If they don't see enough profit in your demographic that they don't staff your country's QA beyond a skeleton crew, and they don't see fit to spend any money on your PR, what makes you think your concerns have the clout to filter through middle management?


Have you even seen how SE is responding to the alpha testers?
#69 Jun 05 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Default
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Do you really think it's so nicely cut and dry as all that?
Did it sound that easy in the article? If they don't see enough profit in your demographic that they don't staff your country's QA beyond a skeleton crew, and they don't see fit to spend any money on your PR, what makes you think your concerns have the clout to filter through middle management?


I don't think those factors are as important as things that affects in-game content.

You will probably need to call for GM maybe 2-3 times if you play the game for few years? As long as the game is good, I could not care less if my GM calls are not as satisfactory as I wished.

Few people (statistically) will get less than decent support, and we'll be horrified by it on the forums when said individuals come and make a thread about it, but in the end that's where it ends. Rarely it affects you in any way, and those who don't visit forums have probably not even heard about it, nor care.

So those are factors that wouldn't really affect SE's income, but if they keep implementing bad content and won't take into account our feedback and we decide to cancel our subscriptions, that's not a good situation for SE. With that in mind, I am quite sure SE tries to keep us in game in any way possible, and one of the easiest ways to do that is to listen to what we have to say. There's no need to answer anything back, since in the next update we'll see what they've decided, but listening to our feedback is definitely a good thing for them.

Not that I ever thought they would staff my country's QA in the first place, or spend any PR here, lol. This is a small country.
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#70 Jun 05 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Zemzelette wrote:
Quote:
SE takes feedbacks from forums, and provides us with updates that tell us what direction the game is going. If they think something is wrong, they will fix it. If it's working as intended, they won't.



Do you really think it's so nicely cut and dry as all that?
Did it sound that easy in the article? If they don't see enough profit in your demographic that they don't staff your country's QA beyond a skeleton crew, and they don't see fit to spend any money on your PR, what makes you think your concerns have the clout to filter through middle management?


Have you even seen how SE is responding to the alpha testers?


I have, and while to some degree it's certainly beaten what we've seen of XI, there's still a hint of vagueness to it that's left room for speculation. Whether or not they keep this up after launch is a serious point of contention, as going tight-lipped is something only Hyan would seemingly appreciate here.

Nonetheless, back to our earlier exchange, feedback on ideas and suggestions for new things aren't mutually exclusive. The fixes CAN be the suggested things, but it's basically up to SE to decide if that's the best route or try something else (be it from their own end or ANOTHER suggestion).

Not to pat myself on the back, but I once posted in Feedback that Beastman and Kindred Seals should now work like they do in XI with Shami basically taking them and keeping a running total. Why? At the time, I had like 24 inventory slots taken up with stacks of seals. Did SE listen to my suggestion specifically? I dunno. Was I the only who suggested it? I dunno. Is the actual suggestion harmful to the gaming environment? **** no. Sadly, such things can be responded with, "Well, they could've come up with this sooner..." or "It should've been this way from the start!" from the cynical gamer (See: Moogles in Selbina/Mhaura).

Perhaps the distinction is to be made in that it was a quality of game life suggestion as opposed to overpowering something because something something blah blah. Yet, power can determine a quality of game life, too, good or bad.
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#71 Jun 05 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, it's undoubtedly excellent. Let nobody say that Square hasn't been absolutely on point with their Alpha testers. It is what I would classify as western-style open communication, explanations are given and the honesty is sincere seeming, even though they're a bit too concerned with corporate pride to pull off the 'everyman appeal'. And also for the record, I'm sure Square's in a better state with XIV than XI on the simple business basis that they had an article a while back specifically stating they were hiring more warm bodies for the special task force.

If I honestly thought it was a guarantee that we'd be on the bad end of a powerless localization, I wouldn't be here typing this. It's just that I'm not sufficiently convinced otherwise either. (Largely because I'm a cynic)

But, that has more to do with the quality of community relations, than communication style. As I said before, both communication styles are valid technically speaking. You can have a closed communication style, that is of excellent quality. It's just that logistically eastern players are the only ones that see it. (Because if the localization live team gets the kind of backing to be in a authoritative position, they also tend to have the scratch to play by western rules. See; Enmasse studios. If they don't have the backing to be in an authoritative position, they do closed communication style - not for preference but to disguise their helplessness. See; Aion)

If you guys like closed styles? More power to you. There's a metric ton of truly wonderful asian games you guys can have your pick of, that most western players couldn't stand for more than a few months. I know the 'everybody's different angle' sounds like a cop-out, but, there really isn't any good or evil in any of this; only demographics.

Aurelius, I know your part of this argument is more to the tune of batting back people saying Square's doing a bad job in terms of community relations. Don't let the fact I contend you on some minor points give you the impression I disagree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say "Square did a bad job in the past", "I'm afraid Square will do a bad job in the future" and "God I wish they'd do more to attract people to this game here in the west". (which is more on the shoulders of the Marketing department).

But "Square is doing a bad job currently" is something I agree is a bit pessimistic.



Edited, Jun 5th 2010 8:33pm by Zemzelette
#72 Jun 05 2010 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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Japanese companies operate in a certain way and American companies operate in a certain way. Now I (still) have not been saying that I wouldn't personally LIKE to see SE "Behave Americanly" to their NA customers, but I don't -expect- it.

Barkingturtle wrote:
This company fails at communicating, at least with its consumers in the West. There is no excuse for it. I don't care how they operate in Japan, they are competing in a western market now and they need to meet our expectations.

[...]

Now don't get me wrong, I fully intend to play upon release


This was the counterpoint to what I was saying earlier... Notice the underlined parts. The person I quoted believes they communicate poorly because they don't communicate in the way HE wants them to. Add in the "I don't care how they operate" and the "They need to meet our expectations" and we're back to that sense of entitlement; the thought that "Because I spend my dollar with XYZ company," (Or because I'm -considering- spending my dollar there) "...that gives ME the right to tell THEM how THEY should operate." It doesn't.

Notice the end, "I fully intend to play". Here we have a customer who KNOWS how they operate, DOESN'T care, and EXPECTS them to change. But regardless of whether they change or not, he's STILL going to pay them.

Here's the obvious question: Where's a company's incentive to change ANYTHING if their customers are going to pay regardless of how they feel? Battered wife syndrome; "Yeah, I don't like how he treats me, but I'm staying with him". If you don't like how you're being treated, and you aren't going to do anything other than "ask them to stop" (which they ignore), then you LEAVE. If anyone feels that SE's product does not meet their expectations, speak with your dollar and DON'T BUY IT. If enough people stop paying SE, that FORCES them to either change or die.

A happy customer's $15 and a ****** customer's $15 are worth the same amount of money. I'm not going to say customer satisfaction is unimportant (it is) or that it's good to totally blow off your players (it isn't) but if you feel a company is not treating you the way you want to be treated, stop paying them. The argument that because you're paying them entitles you to tell them how to change is flawed. Honestly, couldn't it be said that maybe there's someone out there that LIKES the current way something is, and they're paying the same amount of money as you. It's just as easy to say "I pay my $15 a month and I want more communication" as it is to say "I pay my $15 a month and I'm fine with the communication as-is". You know what's easier for a company to do? The same thing they always do. And if neither of these customers is willing to leave over it, it makes financial sense to not waste resources changing the way they do things, if changing things is going to cost more money than leaving them alone.

Zemzelette wrote:
But, that has more to do with the quality of community relations, than communication style. As I said before, both communication styles are valid technically speaking. You can have a closed communication style, that is of excellent quality. It's just that logistically eastern players are the only ones that see it.


As pointed out here; there ARE players who LIKE closed communication style. So as I said, one player's "I'm paying you so you need to communicate with me on my terms" means just as much as another player's "I'm paying you and I'm fine with the way you were doing it."

Obviously not EVERYBODY is happy with the way SE does things, but apparently enough people are happy enough that they're still playing 11 more than half a decade later.

Yes, I'd LIKE to see more "open communication" as far as company reps posting on forums to give us periodic updates about what's coming... but my money doesn't ENTITLE me to it. And if I ever decide I'm unhappy enough with their closed-lipped business model, I'll stop playing. But until that point, and so long as I'm a paying customer, I always have the right to complain... but never the right to expect that I'm entitled to something other than what I know I'm paying for, any more than I can go into McDonalds and demand a meatball sub because "I'm a paying customer, and I want a meatball sub because that's what I always get at Subway and Quiznos."


Zemzelette wrote:
Oh, it's undoubtedly excellent. Let nobody say that Square hasn't been absolutely on point with their Alpha testers. It is what I would classify as western-style open communication, explanations are given and the honesty is sincere seeming, even though they're a bit too concerned with corporate pride to pull off the 'everyman appeal'

If I honestly thought it was a guarantee that we'd be on the bad end of a powerless localization, I wouldn't be here typing this. It's just that I'm not sufficiently convinced otherwise either. (Largely because I'm a cynic)


Hearing things like this makes me feel better, knowing that SE is at least trying to change their stance and be a little more open with their players this time around. ("Their players" = "The people currently playing alpha")

I'm hoping this continues on after alpha/beta and into the game's main life.


Zemzelette wrote:
Aurelius, I know your part of this argument is more to the tune of batting back people saying Square's doing a bad job in terms of community relations. Don't let the fact I contend you on some minor points give you the impression I disagree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to say "Square did a bad job in the past", "I'm afraid Square will do a bad job in the future" and "God I wish they'd do more to attract people to this game here in the west". (which is more on the shoulders of the Marketing department).

But "Square is doing a bad job currently" is something I agree is a bit pessimistic.


I pretty much agree on all of that. They've done poorly in the past, I'm anticipating certain aspects of their poor service to continue, but I'm hoping they won't. I also do wish they'd step up their marketing a little more, and I agree that it's still to early to say how it will turn out until we actually get our hands on a finished product.

At that point, if you like it, play it, and if you don't like it, keep playing whatever you're currently playing. I plan to follow my same advice; I plan to try XIV, and if it turns out to not live up to what I was hoping for, I will not play it for long. I will not play it for 3 years and rail them constantly about how the game doesn't have features I feel I need.
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#73 Jun 05 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:

Notice the end, "I fully intend to play". Here we have a customer who KNOWS how they operate, DOESN'T care, and EXPECTS them to change. But regardless of whether they change or not, he's STILL going to pay them.


Yeah, I fully intend to play because my wife does. Frankly, I don't see the game doing very well, though. I really hope it does, and I hope it's actually fun, because I'll be stuck playing it for awhile. Also, it'd be nice if it had a real UI.

I think the problem here is that a lot of you are Final Fantasy players, not so much MMO players. There is no other studio that communicates this poorly. No other studio fails to drum up excitement the way SE does. No other studio is less human. They're lazy or arrogant, I lean toward the latter, and a lot of you folks don't seem to know that you're entitled to better.

I'm not exactly suffering "battered wife" syndrome, as I've paid maybe three months total sub fees for FFXI, and the only other Final Fantasy game I've ever played was the original on my NES. They may get my initial fifty bucks for the box regardless, but I'm a prize, dude. I've been playing MMO's since 1999. They should be doing back-bends and tonguing my sac to convince me to drop a couple years worth of sub fees on their game, and they can't even be bothered to provide regular press releases in English.

Edited, Jun 5th 2010 8:13pm by Barkingturtle
#74 Jun 05 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Default
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As far as "attracting more players in the west," a few thoughts come to mind. Initially, I think of FFXI's popularity, or lack thereof - yet in my humble opinion it was the best MMORPG of the 2000s. I didn't mind that it has the persona of a 'little-known secret.' The game had/has no shortage of flaws, but I think it's fair to expect a harsh learning curve when you venture from offline RPGs to online ones, where players are now interacting with and affecting each other.

That said, it's obvious that the more successful a game or company is, the more they can invest in future endeavors. So while I'm not someone that needs to be playing the "most popular" game, I realize not being that has its financial disadvantages. In terms of pushing XIV, I'm sure SE will do whatever they think will be most profitable for them.. Ultimately I'd like to see more life as far as advertising (and overall communication), but won't expect it, as some have said here.

Barkingturtle wrote:
I think the problem here is that a lot of you are Final Fantasy players, not so much MMO players. There is no other studio that communicates this poorly. No other studio fails to drum up excitement the way SE does. No other studio is less human. They're lazy or arrogant, I lean toward the latter, and a lot of you folks don't seem to know that you're entitled to better.

And they're not your typical MMO company, either. Personally, I just see it as them being business-like, not so much cold, or less human. If they asked me, I'd question why they didn't appear more amiable and more open with their potential customers.. But again, I don't have an expectation of anything changing.

Ultimately people will speak with their money. To me, to what extent I play XIV depends on the game, not the PR. Even, to take it to an unlikely extreme, that I felt personally offended by how they operated, it would still be my loss if I didn't play what I considered to be the most enjoyable online game.

I realize my post here overlaps a lot with what has been said, but opinions are prone to do that.
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#75 Jun 05 2010 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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Only problem I have with the "Don't pay if you don't like it!" line of thinking is that, yes, if enough people did do that, the SE I've seen in the past would be more likely to just pack their bags and close up shop as opposed to trying to save a sinking ship.

Moreover, yes, part of my fee is going toward actual evolution and growth of the game. I don't mind if they use it for other or newer things, really, but when problems I have go unaddressed for long periods of time, and I see other players echoing those sentiments, I really have to wonder if my money is actually going where I think it is. Meanwhile, some people don't speak because they're afraid to. Others don't speak because they feel it won't do anything. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, etc..

That said, money FFXIV makes should go to FFXIV first. Other SE projects can get their cut later. Ideally, if you can build XIV into a juggernaut of at least 2 million players in the long term, you really have won the MMO game as a developer. Aion isn't doing too hot right now because Korea's basically given the Western market the bird with designing things around older, Korean server economies with greater player populations.
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#76 Jun 06 2010 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Moreover, yes, part of my fee is going toward actual evolution and growth of the game. I don't mind if they use it for other or newer things, really, but when problems I have go unaddressed for long periods of time, and I see other players echoing those sentiments, I really have to wonder if my money is actually going where I think it is. Meanwhile, some people don't speak because they're afraid to. Others don't speak because they feel it won't do anything. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, etc..


That would be fine and all...

But version updates are, in the end, sequels. Just like with your single or multiplayer games that get sequels too. With the only difference being, that you can't go back to the past version but you have to play the sequel, which isn't that bad of a deal in the end, since these sequels rarely make things worse than they were before, at least when it comes to old content.

If you are content with the sequel, you will pay the subscription fees for the next months, essentially paying SE for that sequel. If you don't like the next update, you don't have to pay for it.. you can cancel your subscription.

Thus, demanding that most of the money received goes to making the next sequel is a really weird standpoint to have, really. It's not like this with any other business, you don't see players asking for most of the profit gained from making game X to make X+1.

All that said, what you think the money should go to is not what SE should do. They'll, once again, do what is the most logical thing to do as a company, and if you think that's not enough, don't pay for those sequels, seriously.

Edited, Jun 6th 2010 8:57am by Hyanmen
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#77 Jun 06 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm having a hard time even considering an expansion a sequel as they loosely build on what's pre-established and, in SE's case, usually hit the shelf at under 20% completion. A general update is the most half-assed interpretation of the word ever. Much as people bash it, X-2 was a sequel. You got a new combat system. You got a new story. While they recycled some areas and characters from X, at least it made sense with the world being on Spira and all. Of course, you got new things, too. This is not a sequel. It's mostly trickling out what people paid for years ago with WotG's release.

Being minimalist ISN'T good in today's world of fast communication, and I'd say you're grossly overestimating the cost of potentially expanding your user base many fold. 2 million subscribers, even if for only 4 months, is greater than 200k for 12. By over three times. If it only costs 20% more to achieve that, they'd be stupid not to.

MMOs are easy money if you do it right. It's insanely good money if you do it well. What would you do with $1,800,000,000 a year if you managed to pull off 10 million subscribers at $15/mo? I imagine it wouldn't be spending under 5 mil on XIV's upkeep and updates. Don't say it can't happen, either. Blizzard's proven otherwise, much as I'm sure you'll turn around and say WoW sucks for whatever reason.

Edited, Jun 6th 2010 9:06am by Seriha
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#78 Jun 06 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Coyohma wrote:


Barkingturtle wrote:
I think the problem here is that a lot of you are Final Fantasy players, not so much MMO players. There is no other studio that communicates this poorly. No other studio fails to drum up excitement the way SE does. No other studio is less human. They're lazy or arrogant, I lean toward the latter, and a lot of you folks don't seem to know that you're entitled to better.

And they're not your typical MMO company, either.


Yeah, I know. They're the worst one. Turbine can rape Dungeons and Dragons and Tolkien and I still like them better. Cryptic pummeled Star Trek in the ***, and okay, they're worse than SE. NCSoft makes terrible games, but they make me laugh every now and then. Sony is the Devil, but they've made way better MMOs than SE, and they communicate regularly. Blizzard is galaxies ahead of any other major studio, because they basically do everything right. I'm betting that whenever FFXIV is released, Blizzard will make sure the release of their new expansion coincides with it. Their expansion will outsell FFXIV ten to one. And WoW is a bad MMO.

Yeah, SE is very different. They rely basically entirely on the reputation of their IP to sell boxes. It's arrogant.

And man, there are some increasingly weird arguments going on in this thread (version updates are sequels now?). I understand blind loyalty to a studio. I played Vanguard. But come on, people.
#79 Jun 06 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm having a hard time even considering an expansion a sequel as they loosely build on what's pre-established and, in SE's case, usually hit the shelf at under 20% completion. A general update is the most half-assed interpretation of the word ever. Much as people bash it, X-2 was a sequel. You got a new combat system. You got a new story. While they recycled some areas and characters from X, at least it made sense with the world being on Spira and all. Of course, you got new things, too. This is not a sequel. It's mostly trickling out what people paid for years ago with WotG's release.


You don't really have an argument there. All you're saying is that updates and expansions are too "small" to be sequels.. really now? Sequel is a sequel, no matter how big or small it might be. Or is it something that you get to decide? Hah.

The fact of the matter is, that you pay for these overpriced sequels (content wise, but you usually get much more playtime in return) and if they are not good enough, you don't have to pay for them.

You can deny it if you don't like the idea, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Quote:
MMOs are easy money if you do it right. It's insanely good money if you do it well. What would you do with $1,800,000,000 a year if you managed to pull off 10 million subscribers at $15/mo? I imagine it wouldn't be spending under 5 mil on XIV's upkeep and updates. Don't say it can't happen, either. Blizzard's proven otherwise, much as I'm sure you'll turn around and say WoW sucks for whatever reason.


What does Blizzard do? Considering WoW has 11+ million players and XI has like ~350k, do they give you 20 times as much content as SE does? It is sure they give you more for your buck, but 20 times?

Blizzard, like SE, maximizes their profits. If 2-3 million is enough to keep WoW up and running without losing subscribers, that's how much they'll spend on it. If they can get multimillion profits by just implementing a glorified unicorn to buy for $, of course they'll do it.

Quote:
Yeah, I know. They're the worst one. Turbine can rape Dungeons and Dragons and Tolkien and I still like them better. Cryptic pummeled Star Trek in the ***, and okay, they're worse than SE. NCSoft makes terrible games, but they make me laugh every now and then. Sony is the Devil, but they've made way better MMOs than SE, and they communicate regularly. Blizzard is galaxies ahead of any other major studio, because they basically do everything right. I'm betting that whenever FFXIV is released, Blizzard will make sure the release of their new expansion coincides with it. Their expansion will outsell FFXIV ten to one. And WoW is a bad MMO.


Ah, so making good games is not enough, they gotta kiss your *** too? That kind of princess attitude definitely goes a long way.
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#80 Jun 06 2010 at 10:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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You don't need to do 20x more to get 20x the players, as you'll otherwise inundate casual people with content they'll never get to see or possibly even feel outright overwhelmed. Merely have enough content to appeal without all the feel of needless grind and lack of accomplishment at the end of the day. The hardcore will always ***** about something being too easy, or too hard when it comes to something like AV. Hypocritically, these same people probably won't do anything without the perfect set-ups because it's easiest. Poo on them, the vocal minority, I say.

Meanwhile, get back to me when Hollywood starts releasing 15 minute movie "sequels" and charging another $45 every 3 months because I'm paying for it to be made in good faith when they decide to add another 15 minutes to it. Sure, I could wait a year and a half and maybe eventually see a 90 minute flick, but... uh, what am I supposed to do during that time? Just watch old stuff over and over? Why do we accept this in the MMO world again? Oh, because some people wanna be unique as long as possible. Gotcha.

Edited, Jun 6th 2010 12:26pm by Seriha
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#81 Jun 06 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ah, so making good games is not enough, they gotta kiss your *** too? That kind of princess attitude definitely goes a long way.


Well...Yes.
If there wasn't any profit in it, companies wouldn't bother.
Couching the phrase in sexually derogatory verbiage doesn't somehow make it bad, or produce a good argument.

This isn't Xbox live. >.>;
#82 Jun 06 2010 at 10:55 AM Rating: Default
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You don't need to do 20x more to get 20x the players, as you'll otherwise inundate casual people with content they'll never get to see or possibly even feel outright overwhelmed. Merely have enough content to appeal without all the feel of needless grind and lack of accomplishment at the end of the day. The hardcore will always ***** about something being too easy, or too hard when it comes to something like AV. Hypocritically, these same people probably won't do anything without the perfect set-ups because it's easiest. Poo on them, the vocal minority, I say.


What about when no matter how much you spend, you'd only be able to break even (as many join in as leave)?

XI is already long past the situation like this. It kept growing steadily, until a wild WoW appeared, and was super effective. It wasn't growing anymore, only dying. Throwing more money at it would not have been enough to generate enough new subscriptions to make it worthwhile, at least according to SE. They decided to start working on a sequel instead, which will probably pay off in the long term if it's good enough.

Now with XIV spending more money at it would be a wise move for SE to do, as long as the playerbase keeps growing. Especially at the start of it's lifespan. It has a lot of potential that XI already lost, long time ago. Just as it is (or at least was) worth it for Blizzard to throw more money at WoW, it should be the same case with SE and XIV.

Quote:
Meanwhile, get back to me when Hollywood starts releasing 15 minute movie "sequels" and charging another $45 every 3 months because I'm paying for it to be made in good faith when they decide to add another 15 minutes to it. Sure, I could wait a year and a half and maybe eventually see a 90 minute flick, but... uh, what am I supposed to do during that time? Just watch old stuff over and over? Why do we accept this in the MMO world again? Oh, because some people wanna be unique as long as possible. Gotcha.


Yes, why do we accept it? Although you should remember that as we're watching the first "movie", before it ends there's already (in the best case) another "movie's" worth of content added. One day we'll inevitably catch up though, and only get 15mins worth at time. That's why it's also good that companies add something to do during the time while waiting for the sequel; you usually have multiple paths to see the existing content, like leveling different classes and so on. You can so essentially watch the same "movie" multiple times from different perspectives, although during the second watch it's no longer as fun as before, obviously.

Once we're past that point, either you get bored and stop giving the company your money (as you should if you don't like what you're getting; 15mins of content is not very much in the end) or you're so addicted already that you'd rather hang around and complain about only getting 15mins worth of stuff to do. Rinse and repeat until you've had enough and /ragequit and make sure everyone on the forums know it, while also forgetting that you might have had some fun during the first movie after all.

All that said I don't think you can straight compare how MMO and movie sequels work. They're still sequels though, either way.

Quote:
Well...Yes.
If there wasn't any profit in it, companies wouldn't bother.
Couching the phrase in sexually derogatory verbiage doesn't somehow make it bad, or produce a good argument.


At least in the single player side of gaming industry, making good games is enough to generate profit. Companies don't need to kiss people's asses to make them happy; if you make a good game, that's enough.

In contrast, you rarely get so addicted to single player games that you buy the sequels regardless of how much they suck though. Good thing there's this thing called "communication" that keeps said addicts at bay. Enough apologizes and promises and they'll stay.


Edited, Jun 6th 2010 4:58pm by Hyanmen

Edited, Jun 6th 2010 5:00pm by Hyanmen
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#83 Jun 06 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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At least in the single player side of gaming industry, making good games is enough to generate profit. Companies don't need to kiss people's asses to make them happy; if you make a good game, that's enough.

In contrast, you rarely get so addicted to single player games that you buy the sequels regardless of how much they suck though. Good thing there's this thing called "communication" that keeps said addicts at bay. Enough apologizes and promises and they'll stay.



Ahhhh. better.

That does happen, certainly. It's always sad to see people's good faith used.

But that's taking the dark side scenario and using it to discredit the whole. There are many instances of open communications styles in very good games. It's just being enacted as simple innocent PR move. (And many instances of closed communication styles being the genuine operation of business and not a cover for inability. Again, mostly in Asia. But, they're out there.)

Edited, Jun 6th 2010 1:32pm by Zemzelette
#84 Jun 06 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Default
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But that's taking the dark side scenario and using it to discredit the whole. There are many instances of open communications styles in very good games. It's just being enacted as simple innocent PR move. (And many instances of closed communication styles being the genuine operation of business and not a cover for inability. Again, mostly in Asia. But, they're out there.)


Definitely, neither approach means the game is bad.

But, saying SE SUCKS because they don't focus on the PR side and rather the games they make, is just false.

It's just made to be so in the MMO industry. When SE- or any company for that matter- doesn't have massive PR campaigns and such before & after release of their single player games, it doesn't generate such a massive uproar as it does with MMO's. Few "I wish SE marketed the game more.." opinions, but at the end of the day the game is what matters, not what happens -outside of the game-.

In the end MMO's and single player games are not exactly that different, only the fanbase can be more rabid when it comes to otherwise pretty irrelevant factors like PR. Does PR generate success, or rather creating a good game? Unlike with single player games, good PR can compensate for a lackluster game, but if the game sucks, it sucks, with or without PR.

At the same time, if the game is good, it is good without or with PR.

If SE is a good developer, the game will be good and successful. If SE is a bad developer, the game will be bad and unsuccessful. That is what it comes down to, just like with single player (and non-massive multiplayer) games. Open or closed communication? Irrelevant. As long as it's there.

Also, thanks for taking me seriously >_>.



Edited, Jun 6th 2010 6:04pm by Hyanmen
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#85 Jun 06 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriha wrote:
Only problem I have with the "Don't pay if you don't like it!" line of thinking is that, yes, if enough people did do that, the SE I've seen in the past would be more likely to just pack their bags and close up shop as opposed to trying to save a sinking ship.


I've been a fan of the Final Fantasy Franchise up until I spent five hours slitting my wrists with a rusty knife playing FF13. If 14 turns out to be the one way tunnel that FF13 was, then I'm **** sure going to quit it. And yes, I've heard that "after the first 15 hours, it gets good" but I can't bring myself to slog through more than an hour a day, tops. I'd sooner go back to FFXI and start a brand new character from scratch and level it to 99 without a subjob. It would be less painful.

Regardless, most of their past titles were games that I've played and replayed and enjoyed. Not just FF games, but the Mana games, the Saga games, and so on. Even so, if enough people feel that SE is doing poorly enough that they're going to stop spending their money with them, and that money loss is enough to cause SE to go bankrupt... I'd hate to see it, but if it happens, it's their own fault.

Like I said, a happy customer's $15 has the same value as an unhappy customer's $15. And unless they're willing to walk with it, a company has no reason to change the way they work. Paying for a product you're that unhappy with tells the company you feel their product is worth paying for. And as long as that product is making them money, they're going to continue making their product, their way.

I'd hate to see SE go out of business, especially over the same franchise that was supposed to be their last game before they went out of business back in the 80s, but if it happens as a result of no one wanting to pay for SE's product and communication, then let it be a wake up call to other developers who feel that SE's business strategy is a valid one. Maybe a major game developer suffering a financial crisis as a result of players unhappy with them is what the game industry as a whole needs to see for any change to happen with anyone. I don't want to see it personally, but if enough people don't like their product and service that this is the result, then I can accept that.

Again, I'd like them to have changed during the FFXI era, but I didn't care enough that I was willing to stop playing. This time around, if I'm unhappy enough with the product/communication level, I -will- quit. I think we're being far too nice to them if we're going to pay our money on their product after finding out we don't like it, just because we're afraid of a company we like losing money. It's not our responsibility to keep them in business, it's their responsibility to produce a product that keeps our business.

But at the same time...

Barkingturtle wrote:
Yeah, I fully intend to play because my wife does. Frankly, I don't see the game doing very well, though. I really hope it does, and I hope it's actually fun, because I'll be stuck playing it for awhile.

[...]

I think the problem here is that a lot of you are Final Fantasy players, not so much MMO players. There is no other studio that communicates this poorly. No other studio fails to drum up excitement the way SE does. No other studio is less human. They're lazy or arrogant, I lean toward the latter, and a lot of you folks don't seem to know that you're entitled to better.

[...]

They should be doing back-bends and tonguing my sac to convince me to drop a couple years worth of sub fees on their game, and they can't even be bothered to provide regular press releases in English.


...spending our money with them does not automatically entitle us to expect their product to be a certain way.

If YOU feel that their product is inferior and YOU feel that they treat you poorly, then YOU should spend YOUR money elsewhere, your wife be damned. Let her play the games she likes, and you play the games you like.

Apparently half a million people didn't think SE was that bad over the past 6 years. I had my gripes, but not big enough to stop playing until the stress and hassle of being a lead in an endgame LS finally got to me, which had little to do with SE.

You don't deserve "back bends and sac tonguing" for $15 a month. If you think another company is willing to give you that for $15, then go pay them $15 instead and enjoy it. Let your wife pay her $15 for a game she seems to be willing to enjoy as-is. If I feel I'm "entitled to better", I'll look for a game that provides "better" and I'll pay them instead. At the time, FFXI was the MMO I felt was most worth my subscription. Even playing it alongside WoW, I enjoyed FFXI more, despite Blizzard having FAR better customer service. Currently I'm playing DDO and seem to be enjoying it as well. I've had my gripes about all three games.

Matter of fact, and I'm getting off into a tangent here... two of my biggest gripes with WoW were that new raids invalidated nearly all gear in all but current tier content (Vanilla/BC raid gear and Naxx/Uld are 95% worthless in terms of loot) and the constant cycle of "newer, better, higher item level" takes away much of the challenge of old encounters when done at max level (which is about to increase by 5 more, making Icecrown Citadel worthless as soon as Cataclysm's first raid is live). I suppose that because I paid my $15 to Blizzard, that entitled me to DEMAND they cater THEIR game to ME, right?

Of course not. They have their product and I paid for it until I decided I didn't like it anymore. At that point, I didn't expect that I was "entitled to better" just because I had been paying them for years; I quit and went elsewhere. Clearly enough people who continue to play it are happy with the service they are receiving, or happy enough to pay their monthly fees; I wasn't.

Barkingturtle wrote:
Also, it'd be nice if it had a real UI.


No clue what you mean by this. I thought FFXI's UI was fine. And honestly, with as many games out there that are virtually a xerox of WoW's UI, I'm really hoping the UI looks absolutely nothing, or at least as little as possible, as other MMOGs currently on the market. I'm sick of the "Health/character portrait in upper left, party on the left, minimap in upper right, hotbars on the bottom, bags in the lower right, chat in the lower left" layout. Move sh*t around and change sh*t.

I'd like the FFXIV UI to be at least somewhat customizable and have addons, although I don't expect it. I'm not sure what you mean by "a real UI" (as opposed to a fake one?) though.

Seriha wrote:
Moreover, yes, part of my fee is going toward actual evolution and growth of the game. I don't mind if they use it for other or newer things, really, but when problems I have go unaddressed for long periods of time, and I see other players echoing those sentiments, I really have to wonder if my money is actually going where I think it is. Meanwhile, some people don't speak because they're afraid to. Others don't speak because they feel it won't do anything. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, etc..


I also have problems when I feel like I have concerns and that they aren't being addressed. People -should- speak up when they have concerns, and the company -should- listen and respond to them. Ideally, that's what I'd like to see out of SE this time around. If players can voice their issues and SE listens, answers them, and fixes those issues, then that's a huge step in the right direction (and from the sound of the alpha communication, it sounds like they're on track to this, which I love). The question is, if they DON'T listen and respond to concerns, are people going to accept their silence and keep playing what they feel is a flawed product? If the answer to that is yes, then you aren't giving them a reason to ever change.

It's a sad state of affairs when people won't speak up because they know their voice won't be heard, I agree. But it's even worse when these same people keep paying for a product they dislike. The only thing that's worse than paying for a game you dislike and saying nothing is feeling that -because- you pay for the game, that makes you -entitled- to get what you want, when you want it, how you want it. If you're paying for a game and dislike it, speak up. If they don't listen, stop paying. If enough people stop paying, it's up to THEM to either change or close up shop. But so long as you keep paying them, you're not giving them any incentive to change, because your opinion isn't loud enough to affect their wallets.

EDIT: Look at Dominos. Apparently enough people were unhappy enough with them that they were willing to take their money elsewhere. What was the result? Dominos CHANGED and started a massive "We've changed, come try our new product" PR campaign to bring customers back. If people didn't like Dominos but kept buying it, they never would have had any reason to change anything.

You wouldn't pay for a pizza you don't like from Dominos, complain that %company% does it better and keep buying from Dominos, would you? Of course not; if you liked another company's pizza better, you'd buy pizza from them. You buy the pizza you like, so why not buy the MMORPG you like too?

Edited, Jun 6th 2010 2:21pm by Mikhalia
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#86 Jun 06 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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But that's taking the dark side scenario and using it to discredit the whole. There are many instances of open communications styles in very good games. It's just being enacted as simple innocent PR move. (And many instances of closed communication styles being the genuine operation of business and not a cover for inability. Again, mostly in Asia. But, they're out there.)


Definitely, neither approach means the game is bad.

But, saying SE SUCKS because they don't focus on the PR side and rather the games they make, is just false.

It's just made to be so in the MMO industry. When SE- or any company for that matter- doesn't have massive PR campaigns and such before & after release of their single player games, it doesn't generate such a massive uproar as it does with MMO's. Few "I wish SE marketed the game more.." opinions, but at the end of the day the game is what matters, not what happens -outside of the game-.

In the end MMO's and single player games are not exactly that different, only the fanbase can be more rabid when it comes to otherwise pretty irrelevant factors like PR. Does PR generate success, or rather creating a good game? Unlike with single player games, good PR can compensate for a lackluster game, but if the game sucks, it sucks, with or without PR.

At the same time, if the game is good, it is good without or with PR.

If SE is a good developer, the game will be good and successful. If SE is a bad developer, the game will be bad and unsuccessful. That is what it comes down to, just like with single player (and non-massive multiplayer) games. Open or closed communication? Irrelevant. As long as it's there.

Also, thanks for taking me seriously >_>.



Edited, Jun 6th 2010 6:04pm by Hyanmen


I agree here; I'd rather play a great game with bad PR than a bad game with great PR. FFVII received a MASSIVE amount of PR towards it and it was easily one of my least favorite of the series. FF: The Spirits Within received a massive amount of PR and got horrible reviews in the US (I liked it though, to be honest).

PR brings in more people, and more people means more money, but more people doesn't mean better game. The argument that "WoW is the best MMORPG because it has the most players" holds as much water as "Walmart is the best place to shop because they have the most customers". There are far better places to shop than Walmart and there are far better games to play than WoW.

I'd like to see some PR and some hype around FFXIV to get the word out a little more in the US, but ultimately what I'd like to see is a FFXIV that I will want to play for 5+ years, whether it has 500,000 players or 5,000,000.

PR is important, but not as important as the product itself. I'd still like to see a little more PR though.
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#87 Jun 06 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Default
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PR brings in more people, and more people means more money, but more people doesn't mean better game. The argument that "WoW is the best MMORPG because it has the most players" holds as much water as "Walmart is the best place to shop because they have the most customers". There are far better places to shop than Walmart and there are far better games to play than WoW.


Now I'm not trying to start an argument with this, but while in my opinion WoW Is the best game on the market right now, it's not because of their communication, but because they have very good developers, and thus the game is good.
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#88 Jun 06 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
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PR brings in more people, and more people means more money, but more people doesn't mean better game. The argument that "WoW is the best MMORPG because it has the most players" holds as much water as "Walmart is the best place to shop because they have the most customers". There are far better places to shop than Walmart and there are far better games to play than WoW.


Now I'm not trying to start an argument with this, but while in my opinion WoW Is the best game on the market right now, it's not because of their communication, but because they have very good developers, and thus the game is good.


If you feel it's the best MMORPG because of their developers and because you enjoy the game, then that's reasonable. I disagree, but you're certainly entitled to have a different opinion than me on games you like, since I'm not you.

But we can agree that it's not "the best game" -because- "it has the most players", right?

The point I was making was that "how good a product is" is not a RESULT of "how many people use that product", but rather the product on its own merits.

EDIT: And honestly, the bulk of my complaints with WoW (aside from the two I mentioned) had to do with the players ANYWAY (Idiots who stand in fire, "LFM H UK, GS 5k+ only" retards, etc) which kinda DOES stem from having more players... but regardless, the game ITSELF is as good or as bad as you, the player, think it is. Whether there's a thousand people playing or a million people playing, it doesn't affect thw quality of the game itself (except in situations where groups are difficult to come by, which can be remedied by the game itself even such as level sync or cross-server LFG)

Edited, Jun 6th 2010 2:27pm by Mikhalia
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#89 Jun 06 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Default
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If you feel it's the best MMORPG because of their developers and because you enjoy the game, then that's reasonable. I disagree, but you're certainly entitled to have a different opinion than me on games you like, since I'm not you.

But we can agree that it's not "the best game" -because- "it has the most players", right?

The point I was making was that "how good a product is" is not a RESULT of "how many people use that product", but rather the product on its own merits.


Actually, I don't enjoy the game that much. My personal preference is XI because of the differences between the two. Still, I acknowledge that overall, (imo) WoW is a better, more well designed game.

I couldn't play it more than 50 levels, because it doesn't appeal to my kind of player. And I don't think every game should, either ;).

But now we are getting too off-topic. Your last sentence is right.
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#90 Jun 06 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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You wouldn't pay for a pizza you don't like from Dominos, complain that %company% does it better and keep buying from Dominos, would you? Of course not; if you liked another company's pizza better, you'd buy pizza from them. You buy the pizza you like, so why not buy the MMORPG you like too?


I know where you're going with this, but really, any joe with some dough and tomato sauce could make some form of pizza with the aid of an oven. I've personally worked for two pizza chains in the past, and while I can't say which is better as they both had some strengths, I can look to other kinds of pizza served around here and do feel some suck. I also had no problem with Dominos before their change. I've yet to actually try their new stuff, either, even though I've suggested it when conversation of ordering some pie comes up.

Anyway, MMOs aren't nearly as numerous as pizza places. While not everyone can code one, everyone can give feedback on what's good and bad. I do believe that paying and offering feedback is a show of good faith from the customer that the company can address the problem. Pulling your money out and ******** strikes me as more of a not really caring about what eventually happens. The respect is a two way street to me. Treat me right, I'll tell my friends they treat me right, and if they join up and tell their friends? Well, it's free advertising, really.

SE's not solely an MMO designer, though. If XIV flops, they still got the console market. I'd argue it's not nearly as profitable than an MMO would be, but I'm sure they could still get by with proper product focus and production. As is, the MMOs let them make more console games than we would otherwise get. Or even invest in things like anime (They have a hand in Fullmetal Alchemist, if I recall). I don't think Dominos does tacos... or lawn furniture... or whatever. Essentially, while SE isn't "too big to fail" like american banks, they wouldn't go down easily. I have no doubt they'd lop off a gangrenous limb, though.

If one does believe MMOs are plentiful, you have to further break things down into the preference of the player. I favor medieval fantasy over the sci-fi angle of Star Wars or Star Trek (even though I am a fan of both otherwise). Right now, of the more fantasy-themed games, I guess there's FFXI, WoW, LotR, and maybe Aion. I know there are other F2P ones, but that particular dynamic doesn't appeal since they usually make those games to be unfair to those who don't pay. As for the 4 I listed, though, I need to look further. Is PvP a focus? How's the PvE? How bad are the grinds? Does the game even LOOK good? I mean, yeah, I've had burnt pizza before and it tasted fine, but WoW looking like **** this day and age is partly why I haven't gone anywhere near it after XI wore me out.
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#91 Jun 06 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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It's my opinion that we won't see meaningful improvement in player/developer communications unless/until they create or designate an official forum. Even IF they were to massively increase SE's presence on the myriad of unofficial sites, you'd have to travel all around the web to glean the morsels of information on each one.

The MMOs with official forums do the playerbase a great service by providing the definitive place to make your concerns known to the dev team, and to reliably get information from the devs and their staff in return.
#92 Jun 06 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think anyone's saying you shouldn't do feedback.
But, there should be a statute of limitations on your patience.

If you feel like you don't have choices, keep an eyes on sites like Massively.com that cover a smattering of games.
There a ton of truly good MMOs out there that just tend to go under people's radar.

Specifically on the "non-free-to-play PvE fantasy MMO with decent graphics that will probably have people who play nice on the customer service front"; you have a couple more choices looming on the horizon you might want to take a peek at. Guildwars 2, Tera Online and Rift: Planes of Telara.






Edited, Jun 6th 2010 8:37pm by Zemzelette
#93 Jun 06 2010 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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Firstly, and this is getting off topic... "Free to play with paid options" games like DDO, etc will cost you MORE than $15/mo unless you're budget conscious. Once you're spending 15-20 a month on a game like DDO, it's time to "upgrade" to a subscription game.

Moving on from that...

Seriha wrote:
Quote:
You wouldn't pay for a pizza you don't like from Dominos, complain that %company% does it better and keep buying from Dominos, would you? Of course not; if you liked another company's pizza better, you'd buy pizza from them. You buy the pizza you like, so why not buy the MMORPG you like too?


I know where you're going with this, but really, any joe with some dough and tomato sauce could make some form of pizza with the aid of an oven. I've personally worked for two pizza chains in the past, and while I can't say which is better as they both had some strengths, I can look to other kinds of pizza served around here and do feel some suck. I also had no problem with Dominos before their change. I've yet to actually try their new stuff, either, even though I've suggested it when conversation of ordering some pie comes up.

Anyway, MMOs aren't nearly as numerous as pizza places. While not everyone can code one, everyone can give feedback on what's good and bad. I do believe that paying and offering feedback is a show of good faith from the customer that the company can address the problem. Pulling your money out and ******** strikes me as more of a not really caring about what eventually happens. The respect is a two way street to me. Treat me right, I'll tell my friends they treat me right, and if they join up and tell their friends? Well, it's free advertising, really.


Anyone can make pizza, but not anyone can make GOOD pizza. I personally felt Dominos was fine, but based on their current PR campaign of "We don't suck anymore, give our food another try!", I'm guessing my opinion and yours were not the majority. Enough people disliked their product enough to walk, and enough people walked that it hurt Dominos' wallet. That left them with two options: Close or change. They chose to change, and have been pushing the "We've changed, give us another chance" angle. SE made a lot of changes later in FFXI's life, but they didn't really put any effort into PR for "Hey, we have level sync and more nomad moogles; come try FFXI again and we'll give you a free month" or whatever would work for them. I guess they really didn't feel they needed to, but at that point, they weren't getting many new players in anymore, and the people who were fed up and left long ago never heard about the changes except as word of mouth.

Don't get me wrong; word of mouth from a trusted friend is the best sort of advertising you can get (and it's free) but a little more "Hey, come try our product" would be nice. Even Nintendo and Sony have figured out that advertising in America equals sales in America. I still say "more people doesn't necessarily equate to better product" but it can't hurt to have more people to party with (at least from 10 to 73 anyway).

Seriha wrote:
SE's not solely an MMO designer, though. If XIV flops, they still got the console market. I'd argue it's not nearly as profitable than an MMO would be, but I'm sure they could still get by with proper product focus and production. As is, the MMOs let them make more console games than we would otherwise get. Or even invest in things like anime (They have a hand in Fullmetal Alchemist, if I recall). I don't think Dominos does tacos... or lawn furniture... or whatever. Essentially, while SE isn't "too big to fail" like american banks, they wouldn't go down easily. I have no doubt they'd lop off a gangrenous limb, though.


Dominos doesn't do tacos or lawn mowers... but the problem you end up with sometimes is players who pay $15 a month and think that because their $15 a month gets them tacos from Taco Bell, it entitles them to tacos from Dominos. If you want tacos, go pay Taco Bell your money instead sinec you know they serve a product you enjoy. If you don't like pizza and Dominos says "We sell pizza", it's rather dumb to walk in to a Dominos, pay them, and demand tacos for no other reason than "Other places have them" and that alone makes you feel entitled to them.

Seriha wrote:
If one does believe MMOs are plentiful, you have to further break things down into the preference of the player. I favor medieval fantasy over the sci-fi angle of Star Wars or Star Trek (even though I am a fan of both otherwise). Right now, of the more fantasy-themed games, I guess there's FFXI, WoW, LotR, and maybe Aion. I know there are other F2P ones, but that particular dynamic doesn't appeal since they usually make those games to be unfair to those who don't pay. As for the 4 I listed, though, I need to look further. Is PvP a focus? How's the PvE? How bad are the grinds? Does the game even LOOK good? I mean, yeah, I've had burnt pizza before and it tasted fine, but WoW looking like sh*t this day and age is partly why I haven't gone anywhere near it after XI wore me out.


Indeed, I'm not a fan of sci-fi games either. I've tried EVE and was bored as ****. Didn't really even try SW or ST. Pass on Aion because it's too PVP oriented for me, tried RO (quit because it felt like too much of a grind with little story), tried FFXI (quit due to LS-induced stress), tried WoW (quit due to overabundance of people who are elitist in dumb ways where elitism is unnecessary and constant obsolescence of gear), haven't tried LotRO yet. Currently playing DDO (Trying to refrain from spending any money at all but I have a feeling I'm gonna break down before the month is over).

So FFXIV sits on the horizon as my next hope at a good MMORPG that I'm hoping I'll enjoy. If not, then it's back to DDO, or perhaps something else.
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#94 Jun 06 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
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A couple of things I wanted to point out for everyone being hasty with their trigger fingers here:

a) Worldwide release of FFXIV and I understand it will be voice-acted in English.

b) Square Enix has recently acquired Eidos (a large western game developer).

c) Square Enix was also recently the publisher of Supreme Commander 2, a western real-time strategy title.

As you can see, there is definitely a strategic shift in SE internally to re-align itself to Western markets.

It takes longer than a few months to change a company culture and philosophy which hasn't had to evolve for 20 years at the cutting edge of electronic entertainment. Clearly they are moving in the right direction of inclusiveness given their global presence, but these things take time.

The other point nobody else has raised is that there is likely a commercial reason as to why Dengeki/Famitsu are getting the most recent and top quality news - they probably paid the highest amount for that privilege too.

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#95 Jun 07 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Good
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Dik wrote:
b) Square Enix has recently acquired Eidos (a large western game developer).

c) Square Enix was also recently the publisher of Supreme Commander 2, a western real-time strategy title.

As you can see, there is definitely a strategic shift in SE internally to re-align itself to Western markets.


I don't know if I'd make much of those last two points. Apparently, SE's ownership of Eidos is a purely financial move:

    SE is allowing Eidos to continue operations as an independent developer, according to Kotaku


I'm not sure what to think about Supreme Commander 2...the original was a THQ game IIRC. To me, SE taking over publishing duties isn't necessarily indicative of a value shift on the company's part. It could be simply a financial call, like the case with Eidos appears to be.

As I see it, if you want to align yourself with western markets, and you have an existing western playerbase, then it's logical to begin that process by opening up some communication lines with that demographic. That way, you learn their likes and dislikes, ins and outs, etc.

I'm content with how things are proceeding with FFXIV, but there's certainly some room for improvement if we're talking hypotheticals. I think ascorbic's point about an official forum is spot-on. That'd be a great venue for communication with the company.
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#96 Jun 07 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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Eske wrote:
I'm content with how things are proceeding with FFXIV, but there's certainly some room for improvement if we're talking hypotheticals. I think ascorbic's point about an official forum is spot-on. That'd be a great venue for communication with the company.


I think SE could really benefit from having an official board, with official company reps and GMs who read the board and post periodically, much like Blizzard does.

Whether they adopt another site's boards (like Alla for example) as the "Official boards they lurk and post at" or whether they implement their own BBS system on their own site that they can moderate and browse, I think even the step of saying "Hey, if you post here, we will read what you say, and we'll let you know what's going on"

Alla's FFXI feedback forum is supposedly viewed by SE; every so often we've seen them show up on "recent visitors" and once in a blue moon they'll post something, but just to have SE take the route Blizzard has done regarding "Official forums" that they have reps (paid or unpaid) to reply to you... it would be a massive step in the direction of open player communication.
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#97 Jun 07 2010 at 6:31 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:

But we can agree that it's not "the best game" -because- "it has the most players", right?


If you don't think one of WoW's greatest draws is its huge playerbase, you're just wrong. A lot of players does make an MMO a better game, because in an MMO more players means more players to group with, to contribute to the economy, to socialize with, to PvP against, etc etc. It makes it a better game.

I know I've gone back to WoW just because it was more populated and I felt like actually playing an MMO. Conversely, to me the most attractive game feature-wise is still Vanguard, but there's no one playing it, and thus I'm not, either.

Most of the time you're right in that a popular isn't "better" just because it is more popular, but MMOs are not like that, MMOs are better when they are more popular. The worst thing that can happen to an MMO is low population.

I'm not advocating a huge, resource-draining, public relations campaign be launched by SE, but what would it hurt to have a community liaison feeding us fluffy teasers and answering conceptual concerns and just sharing bits of information? They don't need to have official forums; they could do it here on Allah's just fine. On another message board I frequent, I converse regularly with Curt Schilling, a former major league baseball player who has started a gaming studio with the intention of making a new MMO based on an original IP. I know nothing about the game. Know what I do know? I know Curt's philosophies and I know I like Curt and I know I'll be buying his game when it comes out. Because he talks to the community all the time. Almost every day. If my wife didn't have a Moogle tattoo, I'd probably not even know FFXIV existed.

Any of you getting it yet?

#98 Jun 07 2010 at 7:06 AM Rating: Decent
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If you don't think one of WoW's greatest draws is its huge playerbase, you're just wrong. A lot of players does make an MMO a better game, because in an MMO more players means more players to group with, to contribute to the economy, to socialize with, to PvP against, etc etc. It makes it a better game.


And still, at some point (pretty early on, actually) the number of players becomes trivial at best, because servers can't in most cases interact with each other. It doesn't matter if the game has 500k or 5 million players, as long as server's are full. Normal player won't see any difference between 100 active servers and 30.

Cross-server features like auto-group allow for more flexibility, but you don't really need a huge playerbase for that either, as long as there is always people using the system.

Quote:
I'm not advocating a huge, resource-draining, public relations campaign be launched by SE, but what would it hurt to have a community liaison feeding us fluffy teasers and answering conceptual concerns and just sharing bits of information? They don't need to have official forums; they could do it here on Allah's just fine. On another message board I frequent, I converse regularly with Curt Schilling, a former major league baseball player who has started a gaming studio with the intention of making a new MMO based on an original IP. I know nothing about the game. Know what I do know? I know Curt's philosophies and I know I like Curt and I know I'll be buying his game when it comes out. Because he talks to the community all the time. Almost every day. If my wife didn't have a Moogle tattoo, I'd probably not even know FFXIV existed.


Moogle tattoo is pretty awesome.

In the end, there are not many logical reasons, aside from PR, for SE to do what you suggest. Right now all of SE's development manpower is going for the goal of making a stable, enjoyable game experience. One of the devs could, of course, hang around on the forums telling people how awesome his ideas are, but he could as well be making the game instead of talking fluff.

There are two ways to make a game well-known: Hyping it through the roof and riding on the popularity factor, or making a good game that speaks for itself. Call them arrogant if you want, but in the end when the game comes out and kicks *** we couldn't care less about how much it is marketed in the US. At least until we've exhausted all the current content and the time for seriously considering quitting comes up.

But hey, that might be just me. I'll enjoy the game, you hate and detest SE for out-of-game factors... to each his own.

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#99 Jun 07 2010 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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"If you build it, they will come?"

That's not very practical, because as someone pointed out there's a whole lot more folks out there who have no idea what FFXI is (or that its been out for nearly a decade) than folks that do know and like it\play it. It really won't make a difference if FFXIV kicks *** all over the place if no one knows it's there.

SE has gotten themselves a very bad reputation stateside, and the numbers just speak for themselves. The only press they get is bad press and they aren't even proactive when it comes to defending and explaining their decisions. Instead, they would rather wage their quiet war against RMT and figure out new and interesting ways to **** the playerbase off. At least, that's how is *seems*.

Honestly I don't think that XIV is going to be a smash hit. We will play it because we are their loyal fanbase of the last seven years, but unless something changes and changes very soon, I don't see it becoming the household name that WoW has become. A little communication would go a long way and I think that's all that anyone is asking for. It doesn't matter if it's fluff or substance - all that would really matter is that SE was making an effort to get closer to their customers.

I don't understand why some of you are arguing that there is something wrong with the "Customer is always right" philosophy. It's actually a solid business principle. It doesn't mean that the customer gets a free pass to be a jerk and make unreasonable demands - what it means is that without the customer, the business can't exist, and therefore, the customer is the number one priority.

I don't feel like the number one priority when it comes to my dealings with SE, and I don't really like being taken for granted. And you know what? I don't think I'm alone.
#100 Jun 07 2010 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Until Blizzard started doing cross-server things, servers themselves could pretty much be considered giant instances. This also tied back to my point that you don't need to do 20x the work to please 20x the players, as not everyone will be doing everything at exactly the same time every day forever and ever. Game release/Post-patch rushes happen, yes, but between server "instancing" and genuine instancing, people should presumably be able to do whatever within reason whenever, party needs notwithstanding.

Otherwise, I do believe connecting all the players massively would be a good thing. If all of FFXI's servers shared the same AH, I'm wondering if things would be a lot cheaper than they are now. Getting help for quests/missions is an obvious difficulty, and largely why I see the pending CoP adjustment as a good thing since it shifts focus from of-level-capped groups to low-man or solo viability until the Tenzen fight (which might become soloable at 99 for some, even). Of course, instancing is a balancing act, and I've seen people whine about it changes a MMO into glorified chatrooms just because they don't see some random dude they don't even wave at or help while on their way to whatever. Sure, I've played the hero from time to time in XI, but I can never play expecting someone to be out there to randomly save my ***, either. Either way, as long as grouping is easy and beneficial to everyone involved (even if they don't need the explicit purpose of the group), instancing is fine.

As for official forums, the only thing I'd be worried about is the level of hands tying that goes on in the chain of command. In Aion's case, it really seems the Western market has **** for input in the game's future even though it was supposedly going to vary from the Korean version. The recent 1.9 patch saw things more reflective of the Korean economies where players have hundreds of millions of kinah due to their year advantage, but players on our side who've only had the game for 7-8 months are still getting characters to level 50 or barely even breaking 10m before it's spent on something they need. There's a lot of outrage going on, and it's not just one or two vocal people, but all we've really seen from the western reps is that they're taking it up with the Korean division. Really, it's bad enough we're already a game version behind (Koreans are on 2.0) when SE had managed worldwide releases of content. Far as I'm concerned, the majority of the game is just numbers, and code's not written in squiggle. There's not as much to translate as they'd like us to believe, really, and this whole level of disconnect reminds me of the anime/manga industry and how long it takes to get official dubs/translations here when I see fan groups having subbed episodes done in 8 hours and scanslations within a few days.

So, yeah, there is a way to have official forums and still **** it all up. Feedback, quite simply, can't be lopsided in favor of one culture. If you want it that way, don't release globally.
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#101 Jun 07 2010 at 8:40 AM Rating: Default
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"If you build it, they will come?"

That's not very practical, because as someone pointed out there's a whole lot more folks out there who have no idea what FFXI is (or that its been out for nearly a decade) than folks that do know and like it\play it. It really won't make a difference if FFXIV kicks *** all over the place if no one knows it's there.


Really, now? What exactly do you base this on?

If you ask your normal final fantasy player about XI, he surely knows it, and will definitely tell you why he hasn't played or didn't get far in the game. Be it the general lack of user friendliness or subscription fees or something else.

Not to mention it doesn't work the same way as with single player games. MMO's are meant to be played for years. The first 2 weeks aren't as important for the profits as with 'normal' games. MMO's grow in time, and XI is the best example of how a game can grow without a lot of media attention. It kept growing steadily until better options came around.

On the other side of the spectrum you have companies with little to no funds for PR release games such as The Witcher that sell more than a million copies with nonexistant marketing. Now consider a title like Final Fantasy that everyone surely knows already. SE had practically no ads nor anything else PR wise over here, but surprise surprise, the latest single player title was still on top of the selling charts for weeks.

Quote:
SE has gotten themselves a very bad reputation stateside, and the numbers just speak for themselves. The only press they get is bad press and they aren't even proactive when it comes to defending and explaining their decisions. Instead, they would rather wage their quiet war against RMT and figure out new and interesting ways to **** the playerbase off. At least, that's how is *seems*.


And their games still sell like hot cakes. What numbers, exactly, speak for themselves? The metacritic score for FFXIII? The sales chart for the same game?

But you act like defending themselves would do any good. When asked "why don't you create an FFVII remake?" and they give you an honest answer, people don't believe it. Director of XIII explains his decisions, "fans" rip him apart word by word.

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Honestly I don't think that XIV is going to be a smash hit. We will play it because we are their loyal fanbase of the last seven years, but unless something changes and changes very soon, I don't see it becoming the household name that WoW has become. A little communication would go a long way and I think that's all that anyone is asking for. It doesn't matter if it's fluff or substance - all that would really matter is that SE was making an effort to get closer to their customers.


It's not aiming to be a smash hit like WoW. Leave that up for Bioware.

But yeah, I think we've gone over this already. Fluff is all we want, but if you provide a good game and no fluff? That's not enough to satisfy Western MMORPG Customers.

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I don't feel like the number one priority when it comes to my dealings with SE, and I don't really like being taken for granted. And you know what? I don't think I'm alone.


Then stop acting like you want to be. You pay the game, obviously the game is good enough for you. SE has no need to go further. If you are not satisfied and leave, that forces SE to try to please you and your likeminded fellows.

You are the reason why SE takes you for granted. You set the bar, SE has no need to go further than that.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

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