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#102 Jun 07 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
Barkingturtle wrote:
If you don't think one of WoW's greatest draws is its huge playerbase, you're just wrong. A lot of players does make an MMO a better game, because in an MMO more players means more players to group with, to contribute to the economy, to socialize with, to PvP against, etc etc. It makes it a better game.


I think that's a pretty fair statement, particularly at this stage of the game's lifespan. Love it or hate it, WoW gets credit for taking the MMO genre mainstream. There's really nothing about WoW that warrants its success at the level it has seen aside from being in the right place at the right time with the right concepts.

Having said that, I really don't think this is about SE drumming up more interest in the game. They were at E3 talking about it last year and they'll most likely toss out a blurb about it this year. People interested in MMOs in general tend to keep tabs on who is developing what. SE doesn't need marketing to drive launch sales. Pre- and post-launch word of mouth is the primary form of advertising for any MMO. People know XIV is coming. Whether or not they care is another matter. North American and European sites have already posted coverage of FFXIV at various points in the development whether SE targeted them specifically for a press release or not. That satisfies the demands of getting word out.

MMO devs don't advertise. WoW does now because they have billions of dollars to mess around with but they weren't doing it during the game's development. People who want to know will know. People who don't care won't. That's the way it has always been with MMOs. Viral marketing is cheap, easy, and horribly effective.

I'm still not sure what it is people would like SE to be doing. Maybe I'm just being a dense monkey, but I can't help but feel all this talk about SE drumming up more interest for the game is just the evolution of the conversation to cling to the "they must talk more" argument.

SE is doing fine.
#103 Jun 07 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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You don't know what we would like SE to be doing? I think it's been said a couple times that it would be nice for a rep to descend from on high to mingle with the commoners once in a while.

All joking aside, I just think that it's not asking too much for SE to assign a rep to keep us updated on what they have on the horizon and to address the *major* concerns that the players have.

The last time I remember hearing from the *Square Enix Community* was during the pandemonium warden fiasco. It took an 18 hour marathon battle and the front page of every major gaming magazine out there to illicit any sort of response out of SE and you don't think there's anything wrong with that? And THEN, they posted a thread, everyone kissed their *** in it about how great it was to hear from them, and then they just disappeared, presumably until the next thing that hits the news.

No one is asking them to give up all their secrets and spend every day responding to every whiny thread on these forums. But, it wouldn't kill them to have a rep come round once a month to give Alla an exclusive.

#104 Jun 07 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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All joking aside, I just think that it's not asking too much for SE to assign a rep to keep us updated on what they have on the horizon and to address the *major* concerns that the players have.


It's not too much asked indeed, but it isn't required either.
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#105 Jun 07 2010 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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LemmingKingXXX wrote:
Mostaru wrote:

Osar... we all can talk to a SE representative(kind of) in FFXI, we just have to do something stupid, and you get a chance to talk in the jail with the GM. :D


I know this was a joke, but to be clear, the GM's are not actually members of SE, they are outsourced to SOE (so if you have a beef with Everquest...)


hehe yeah, and thats why i said "(kind of)"
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#106 Jun 07 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
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All joking aside, I just think that it's not asking too much for SE to assign a rep to keep us updated on what they have on the horizon and to address the *major* concerns that the players have.


It's not too much asked indeed, but it isn't required either.


It would be appreciated though.

Like I said, I'd like to see more interaction from them, and I will be happy and pleasantly surprised if we get it, but I don't EXPECT it. And I know that going in. I know, when I buy the game and pay my monthly fee for FFXIV, what to expect out of the game. I should expect a company that doesn't really communicate with their player base, despite producing a game I mostly enjoy regardless.

If I have a problem with that, I should buy something else.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Barkingturtle wrote:
If you don't think one of WoW's greatest draws is its huge playerbase, you're just wrong. A lot of players does make an MMO a better game, because in an MMO more players means more players to group with, to contribute to the economy, to socialize with, to PvP against, etc etc. It makes it a better game.


I think that's a pretty fair statement, particularly at this stage of the game's lifespan. Love it or hate it, WoW gets credit for taking the MMO genre mainstream. There's really nothing about WoW that warrants its success at the level it has seen aside from being in the right place at the right time with the right concepts.


Barkingturtle wrote:
Most of the time you're right in that a popular isn't "better" just because it is more popular, but MMOs are not like that, MMOs are better when they are more popular. The worst thing that can happen to an MMO is low population.


Aurelius hit the nail on the head. If all MMORPGs turned into single player games with a handfull of NPCs to fill in your party slots for you, WoW would fall significantly. The game itself is not "better" in all aspects for all people; the main draw of it is its popularity. I won't dispute that it's the most popular game on the market, but it's simply the most draw because it managed to be "in the right place at the right time".

And even non WoW players would have to concede the massive popularity the game has gathered, from two limited time Mountain Dew flavors to an episode of South Park (which I picked apart endlessly; boars don't give 2 XP, they give XP based on level and stop giving any when they go grey, etc...) WoW is unquestionably the most popular game but popularity alone is not the sole determining factor of "best".

That's the problem with society and media today... you have **** like American Idol and Big Brother and such which are just giant popularity contests that try to justify themselves as "more votes for X equates to how good X is", or talentless hack singers/"performers" who gyrate their pelvis to pre-recorded music and try to justify themselves as "it's good because people watch it, therefore you should watch it because it's good". Cyclical logic is cyclical.

Even you (Barkingturtle) feel that Vanguard is a better game by your own admission, but you won't play it for no other reason (that you provided) besides "More people play WoW, so I'm going to play a game I admit isn't as good because it's more popular"

So at this point, I have to wonder: how many people ONLY chose WoW -because- of its popularity and have no idea that there are many other MMORPG options out there? For many people, WoW is their first and only MMORPG (and it's painfully obvious when they try a different MMORPG and talk about everything in WoW terminology. So now that you bring up the "I like another game better but I only play what is popular" argument, it makes me wonder how much of WoW's NA players are the same way.

This next statement is untrue about WoW, but if you took an absolutely abysmal game model (Let's say Superman 64 Online) and managed to somehow get 25 million people playing a horrible game, would that make the game "Great" in your eyes because, despite the abysmal gameplay and mechanics, "a lot of people play it, so it must be good"? Like I said before; if you follow that logic, you must really love shopping at Walmart, since it's the best store ever by virtue of the people shopping there.

Second life has like 8-10 million players, doesn't it? So by the logic that "more people = better product", Second life must be the second best MMOG out there behind WoW; why not go play that? How about because despite all the people who play it, it's crap. 8 million people can own a polished ****, but that doesn't make it not still a piece of ****. If I wanted to make all of my decisions based on "Doing what everyone else is doing because everyone doing it makes it better", I'd go back about 8 years to High School. Fortunately, I've since learned something that School DOESN'T teach you: The ability to think for yourself. If you enjoy something, then do whatever that thing is. But nothing is awesometacularsauce for no other reason than "Everyone else is doing it so I'm not cool if I'm not doing it too"

Again, I really liked WoW; I played it for a few years until I got tired of it. It's a pretty solid game overall which manages to draw in a large playerbase. But among the half dozen MMORPGs I've played over the years, it comes in third in terms of my game preferences. I've seen games I liked worse, but I've seen games I've liked better, too.

And as someone pointed out, except in cross-server situations, the overall amount of players is irrelevant. From my time playing on WoW, my player interaction was limited to my server only, until cross-realm LFG was added, at which point it was limited to my battlegroup (I dislike PvP so I never did BGs).

No offense, but unless you were in the Nightfall battlegroup, you might as well not have ever existed as far as my playing experience goes. And if you weren't, then I might as well not have ever existed as far as your playing experience goes. Assuming 20,000 players per server times 20 servers, that's 400,000 total players I would ever have the chance to interact with. I have characters on both factions, but if you don't then you can halve that.

So "15 million subscribers" means little to me when I'll only ever have a chance to meet less than 3% of them. And 8-10 million of them are in Asia-Pacific, and most on different servers anyway. So "A lot of people you will never meet do the same thing you do" doesn't really mean much. The only things I care about are the gameplay mechanics, features, and to a lesser extent the graphics. Things like "How many other people are playing" don't really matter so long as I can get a group. And if I can get a group on my server, why do I care about 500 other servers? They really don't affect me any more than I affect them.

It might matter if the game were like EVE where everyone is on the same server and the amount of people DOES matter (Although the game still felt empty to me most of the time anyway; but that's how space is), but in a game where the population is divided by servers, it doesn't matter if there are 15, 50, or 5000 servers on a basis of personal experience.

Don't let me talk you out of playing WoW if you like it, but don't try to justify its greatness by saying "It's great because so many people play it". Talk about the fact that it has a shallow learning curve, the fact that it's easy to pick up and put down, the fact that quests are easy and that grouping is easy, or whatever it is you enjoy about the game... but the total amount of people playing it (over 90% of which you will never ever meet) is irrelevant.

Any game, whether it has a thousand, a million, or a billion players only needs enough people to pay the bills and such that the players always have someone to party with. Population can be too low if it takes forever to build a party, a problem FFXI had before level sync (and WoW had before cross realm LFG), and THAT can kill a game, but that's about it. If FFXI's 500,000 subscribers jumped to 5,000,000 and they added 200+ more servers, that wouldn't make FFXI better... it would just make it "more popular". That's it.

Barkingturtle wrote:
I'm not advocating a huge, resource-draining, public relations campaign be launched by SE, but what would it hurt to have a community liaison feeding us fluffy teasers and answering conceptual concerns and just sharing bits of information? They don't need to have official forums; they could do it here on Allah's just fine.


For once, I mostly agree with you, at least as stated. It would be nice to have a little PR. It would be nice to have some fluffy teasers and some community reps talking to us. I don't -expect- it, but I agree that it would be nice if we had it.
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#107 Jun 07 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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Mostaru wrote:
LemmingKingXXX wrote:
Mostaru wrote:

Osar... we all can talk to a SE representative(kind of) in FFXI, we just have to do something stupid, and you get a chance to talk in the jail with the GM. :D


I know this was a joke, but to be clear, the GM's are not actually members of SE, they are outsourced to SOE (so if you have a beef with Everquest...)


hehe yeah, and thats why i said "(kind of)"


I've always thought this was dumb as ****. A requirement for being a GM in a game should include "Someone who plays the **** game". With certain GMs, you could always tell that they had no idea about simple game mechanics, and it was horribly frustrating.

That's one thing I have to give credit to Blizzard for: Their GMs are usually good-natured and all of the ones I've spoken with are WoW players themselves. You're much more likely to get a sympathetic ear on the other end of the chat window if the person sitting there has been in the same boat as you.
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#108 Jun 07 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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That's one thing I have to give credit to Blizzard for: Their GMs are usually good-natured and all of the ones I've spoken with are WoW players themselves. You're much more likely to get a sympathetic ear on the other end of the chat window if the person sitting there has been in the same boat as you.


Now that is certainly true. However, just like with PR, people tend to put too much emphasis on the customer service overall.

Now if you have someone make a thread on the forums saying how he got horrible CS while trying to do X, everyone is like "wow that is so horrible, why won't SE do anything?!". At the same time, though, 499,999 people keep playing the game happily, with most not even knowing that something as horrible as X happened. And for most of those who do know, it doesn't involve them in any other way than that they're playing the same game as the victim.

Now you might, while playing the game for few years, call a GM few times. Sometimes the service is decent, sometimes it's just plain bad. Still, that translates to around 0,0001% of your total experience with the game. That is really, not that much in the end.

That said, if the game is good, few poor experiences like this can be overlooked.

Then there might be some unlucky individuals that get hit more heavily. They have all the reason to be upset, but in the end the chance of that happening is like getting hit by a car while walking down the street; it's possible, but nothing you should be afraid of.

It is certainly bad PR when you have one or two of these threads on the forums, but put it into perspective and 99,999% of players continue their lives as normal, playing happily like nothing ever happened. Some random poster on the forum might feel sympathy for the guy (and his friends of course) but its pretty much like hearing that some guy somewhere got a heart-attack and died. Do you have enough sympathy to care for all these unfortunate incidents? I certainly don't. I'll feel sorry for a while, but if it doesn't involve me, I'll move on pretty fast. I don't think most people differ from me in this aspect.

But hey, just giving y'all some perspective here. I can't help but think that's what SE thinks while allocating resources for these things though. If that ensures a better game, in any way, then ****, I don't mind.
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#109 Jun 07 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
That's one thing I have to give credit to Blizzard for: Their GMs are usually good-natured and all of the ones I've spoken with are WoW players themselves. You're much more likely to get a sympathetic ear on the other end of the chat window if the person sitting there has been in the same boat as you.


It is certainly bad PR when you have one or two of these threads on the forums, but put it into perspective and 99,999% of players continue their lives as normal, playing happily like nothing ever happened. Some random poster on the forum might feel sympathy for the guy (and his friends of course) but its pretty much like hearing that some guy somewhere got a heart-attack and died. Do you have enough sympathy to care for all these unfortunate incidents? I certainly don't. I'll feel sorry for a while, but if it doesn't involve me, I'll move on pretty fast. I don't think most people differ from me in this aspect.


Most people complain about the problems very few tell you the good side. Not saying universal truth of course, just people are more... Emotional about problems then they are the good things. I work tech support, It's EXTREMLY rare for somebody to call in saying they dont haev a problem and they love the service they get.. had it happen.. confuses me everytime... Most people call in over .. waht some people would thing are trivial thing. But to these people there big deals. Easy fix's but stressfull to thoes experiencing it.
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#110 Jun 07 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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::wince::
When your players start to draw a parallel between receiving your customer service and sudden tragic accidents, in an effort to defend it, you know you probably messed up somewhere.


Edited, Jun 7th 2010 3:39pm by Zemzelette
#111 Jun 07 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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To some degree, until the game comes out, we can't safely speculate on what they should be doing with us. All we can really compare it to is what FFXI and other games have done, naturally each having their own levels of success and satisfaction. For the most part, people don't like how they handled XI, even if they did continue to play. Such might very well have meant there was nothing better for them out there with XI having the best potential for their preference. That's where I stood for many years. ****, it's where I still stand. Nobody likes seeing wasted potential. I can't think of very many circles where pulling out is typically considered a show of support for something, really, and this could be strongly reflected by the community's feel toward SE over the past year with the half-assed add-ons with us feeling like SE pulled out on us in favor of XIV. That cloud of doubt still lingers even if the devs have said they'll still do more if people keep paying. Doing more isn't the same as doing enough.
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#112 Jun 07 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
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When your players start to draw a parallel between receiving your customer service and sudden tragic accidents, in an effort to defend it, you know you probably messed up somewhere.


Hm, you're right... They're not even close, but people take it a lot more personally when someone receives bad customer support than when someone gets hit by a car.

It's like a personal crusade for many at that point.
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#113 Jun 07 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zemzelette wrote:
::wince::
When your players start to draw a parallel between receiving your customer service and sudden tragic accidents, in an effort to defend it, you know you probably messed up somewhere.


That is quite possibly the funniest thing I've heard in a while. You deserve two whole internets for that one.

Seriha wrote:
To some degree, until the game comes out, we can't safely speculate on what they should be doing with us. All we can really compare it to is what FFXI and other games have done, naturally each having their own levels of success and satisfaction. For the most part, people don't like how they handled XI, even if they did continue to play. Such might very well have meant there was nothing better for them out there with XI having the best potential for their preference. That's where I stood for many years. ****, it's where I still stand. Nobody likes seeing wasted potential. I can't think of very many circles where pulling out is typically considered a show of support for something, really, and this could be strongly reflected by the community's feel toward SE over the past year with the half-assed add-ons with us feeling like SE pulled out on us in favor of XIV. That cloud of doubt still lingers even if the devs have said they'll still do more if people keep paying. Doing more isn't the same as doing enough.


Yeah, this is pretty accurate. It's not really fair to say "SE needs to do X/Y/Z with FFXIV" when the game is still in Alpha. Most of us (myself included) are just having pre-action kneejerk reactions in anticipation of receiving the same product we got for the past 6 years.

I agree it's not fair to judge how they're GOING to handle something when we really don't know.

Hypocritically, I'll admit that I'll probably still do it. It can't be helped.
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#114 Jun 08 2010 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:

I agree it's not fair to judge how they're GOING to handle something when we really don't know.

Hypocritically, I'll admit that I'll probably still do it. It can't be helped.


Everything is speculation at this point anyway. And I do find it fun to specualte. If anybody feels the need to bash my opinions dosnt really matter much to me tehre only opinions :P. (Not saying anybody has really done that too often anyway) but still.. yeah that was kinda random wasnt it lol.
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#115 Jun 08 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Default
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anticipation of receiving the same product we got for the past 6 years.


I don't think this kind of thinking is logical.

Feel free to think what you want though.
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#116 Jun 08 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ducks quack. If they moo, I'd be surprised. Is SE a duck, or will they be a cowduck?
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#117 Jun 08 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:

Quote:

anticipation of receiving the same product we got for the past 6 years.


I don't think this kind of thinking is logical.

Feel free to think what you want though.


What is so illogical about it then? We have received very poor customer support for the past 7 years of their flagship product. What spectacular indication have they given us that the service is about to do a complete 180 when their *new* flagship product is released?

It's completely logical to expect that nothing will really change, and that it might even get worse as they try to support two online products instead of focusing all efforts onto one.

I admire your unwavering faith in SE, but I think you are looking at things through rose-colored glasses.
#118 Jun 08 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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they know us NA'ers will happily hand over our subscription dollars come launch anyway regardless? ;P
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#119 Jun 08 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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What is so illogical about it then? We have received very poor customer support for the past 7 years of their flagship product. What spectacular indication have they given us that the service is about to do a complete 180 when their *new* flagship product is released?


Oh, I must've misunderstood him/her then. I thought since s/he was talking about "the same product", s/he meant the game and not the CS.
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#120 Jun 08 2010 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
What is so illogical about it then? We have received very poor customer support for the past 7 years of their flagship product. What spectacular indication have they given us that the service is about to do a complete 180 when their *new* flagship product is released?


Oh, I must've misunderstood him/her then. I thought since s/he was talking about "the same product", s/he meant the game and not the CS.


Yeah, I was referring to the quality of customer service and support, not the actual game itself. Obviously it's a new game, but my concern is whether we're going to be receiving the same (severely lacking) support we have gotten with XI or whether they will be trying something different this time around.

And in Hyanmen's defense regarding his car accident analogy, he does raise an interesting point.

100% true story: My father was stopped at a red light when a police officer, lights off, going 55 mph, sped through an intersection, not responding to a call, and slammed into him. The accident totaled his work van (he owns his own business so it was his only one) and send him to the hospital. Me, my sister, her husband, her husband's parents, our pastor, and two police officers were involved in COMPLETELY gutting all the tools and supplies from his truck (filled three pickup trucks with the contents) because the Sergeant who responded to the accident said that for insurance claims purposes, it HAD to be towed to a "County Authorized towing facility" for inspection of damages, and we didn't want to risk having anything stolen out of it while in an impound lot (because of course no one would be responsible for that).

EDIT: I should also mention that because the Sergeant said at the scene "The officer was clearly at fault", all witnesses were told they could go. So now there are suddenly no witnesses for the case. Fancy that.

Throughout all of the dispositions, my parents have been told that the maximum the county will pay on police negligence suits is $20,000, because there is a CAP due to TOO MANY negligence suits. His new van (to replace the totaled one) and his hospital bills alone were more than that, never mind the fact that my mother had just gone through surgery to have her cervical cancer removed and my father had to take her to her radiation and chemotherapy appointments with his left arm in a sling. Three years later, they have FINALLY set an actual court date (January 2011) to take this to trial, where their lawyer will have to prove gross negligence. Incidentally, because the officer who hit my father is the son of a captain in a local precinct, not only did he NOT get fired, but he has been promoted TWICE since then.

Now THAT story, 100% true, and even more sh*tty to go through than to tell, would likely net me half a dozen **********, that sucks" at best. More likely this story will be forgotten by the end of the page.

Conversely, if I posted a copy of one conversation I had with one GM who was a complete moron (and I have three or four of those laying around if I want to go through all of my old screenshots spanning 6 years of FFXI), I would end up with a 5+ page topic of people talking about how horrible SE's support is, how they wish they had better service...

So the analogy itself was a bit extreme... but he's right. People do seem to care more about one bad support experience than they care about a car accident. I'm not sure why this is true, but it is.

I will also say this: I totally agree that the actual product is more important than the service that supplements it, but any flaws in a product (and every product has flaws at some point) are quickly forgotten with a good customer service story.

Also true story: One week after I proposed to my fiancee, her engagement ring broke. I emailed the company I purchased it from who paid return shipping, fixed the break, thickened the band all around (basically they added more gold to the ring at no charge) and sent it back next-day shipping, with a promise that if it EVER breaks again, it will be replaced for free. Yeah, I'm annoyed that the ring broke in the first place, but the exceptional service made up for it, and they'll be the first place I recommend to anyone who mentions shopping for jewelry.

Conversely, if they had just told me "Tough ******** she broke it, that's not our fault", I'd have been livid to say the least.

So a good game can operate independent of customer support... but every game has its share of problems, and good customer support makes customers far more willing to overlook those problems in the grand scheme of things. Bad support makes you not only talk about how bad the support it, but it exacerbates the problem as well. "There was a billing issue but SE got it straightened out" vs "My bank @#%^ed up, SE banned me, and not only did I sit on hold for an hour, but I was told I have to log into my account (WHICH IS BANNED) and talk to a GM, then hung up on!"

I'm not going to play a bad game regardless of the customer service, but when good games hit a bump, it's never helpful to your inherent stress level to be on hold/in queue to talk to someone, KNOWING that they probably aren't going to help you ANYWAY.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 2:50pm by Mikhalia
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#121 Jun 08 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:
So the analogy itself was a bit extreme... but he's right. People do seem to care more about one bad support experience than they care about a car accident. I'm not sure why this is true, but it is.


I don't want to make a big deal out of what is clearly a tangent issue here, but I think that there's a couple logical explanations for this:

Firstly, this is a video game forum, so we can expect that everyone is interested in discussing video game subject matter, less so unrelated topics. Perhaps it would get the attention that you're referring to in OOT though, who knows.

Secondly, there's not a whole lot to be said for your anecdote beyond condolences. I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that I can't offer advice, because it's a situation that I have absolutely no experience with. It's also not very controversial, something which accounts for most of the attention that this particular thread is getting. In a thread say, about a bad CS experience, I'd wager that you'll have your share of people arguing on SE's behalf.
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#122 Jun 09 2010 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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A lot of posts here are talking about PR and I think that is a fair bit different than the sort of community relations going on in other MMOs (some of them at least).

I've played 4 MMOs: FFXI, WoW, Eve and (briefly) EQ2. I'm not going to go into my personal opinions about what the strengths and weaknesses of these respective games are, this is just for reference to let you know where I am coming from.

In two of the games, WoW and Eve, there exists an official forum attached to the main website. There, employees of the company interact with the playerbase to share ideas, resolve issues and, just sometimes, have a little fun. 'We want new servers,' 'this boss is too hard,' 'Dramiels are too powerful,' and so on. You get the picture. Overall, it's pretty effective. There is a centralized place players come to interact out of the game and pass information back and forth between developer and player (it is a two way street in an evolving MMO).

In my opinion, if you release an MMO and don't have a localized (in SEs case one each for NA, EU and Japan) website with an official forum attached for interaction with your players, you are already behind the 8-ball. All MMOs have issues at some point. Players will have valid complaints/concerns. Does community relations ensure success? Of course not, but it goes a long way in helping the game evolve. If you compare where WoW was when it was released, and where it is today and where it is going, it feels quite different (for the better IMO). I'd like to think that community input has had something to do with that.
#123 Jun 09 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
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199 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Barkingturtle wrote:
If you don't think one of WoW's greatest draws is its huge playerbase, you're just wrong. A lot of players does make an MMO a better game, because in an MMO more players means more players to group with, to contribute to the economy, to socialize with, to PvP against, etc etc. It makes it a better game.


I think that's a pretty fair statement, particularly at this stage of the game's lifespan. Love it or hate it, WoW gets credit for taking the MMO genre mainstream. There's really nothing about WoW that warrants its success at the level it has seen aside from being in the right place at the right time with the right concepts.



I couldn't disagree more. If you compare where both FFXI and WoW started and where they are currently, there is a stark contrast between the two games (and the governing philosophies behind them).

WoW started pretty big, but they've still steadily grown. In my opinion, the one thing that Blizzard has done exceptionally well is how they've evolved the game over time to (mostly) improve it.

FFXI by comparison seems stagnant, frozen in time. That was a game that was screaming out for its shortcomings to be fixed and SE implemented changes that were, frankly, far too little, far too late.
#124 Jun 09 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
FFXI by comparison seems stagnant, frozen in time. That was a game that was screaming out for its shortcomings to be fixed and SE implemented changes that were, frankly, far too little, far too late.


The game is too far behind. The core mechanics itself are too far behind. They were from the start.

Now instead of trying to redo the whole game to get up to modern standards, SE chose to make a new game from the scratch.

Business wise, that is The logical thing to do. If you want to regain your place in the industry, which will have more impact: A 2002 game being redone from the scratch up to today's standards (which would **** off a lot of existing customers, see: SWG) or a completely new game being made from the scratch up to today's standards? What are the potential players going to think?

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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#125 Jun 09 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
FFXI by comparison seems stagnant, frozen in time. That was a game that was screaming out for its shortcomings to be fixed and SE implemented changes that were, frankly, far too little, far too late.


The game is too far behind. The core mechanics itself are too far behind. They were from the start.

Now instead of trying to redo the whole game to get up to modern standards, SE chose to make a new game from the scratch.

Business wise, that is The logical thing to do. If you want to regain your place in the industry, which will have more impact: A 2002 game being redone from the scratch up to today's standards (which would **** off a lot of existing customers, see: SWG) or a completely new game being made from the scratch up to today's standards? What are the potential players going to think?


Now seems like a good time to bring up an adage:

There are two ways to ruin a game. One is to ignore your player base, and the other is to give them what they ask for.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
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#126 Jun 09 2010 at 9:41 PM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
There are two ways to ruin a game. One is to ignore your player base, and the other is to give them what they ask for.


So it's all about balance in the end.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

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