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Where would you draw the line?Follow

#1 Jun 08 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Default
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FF14 will possibly include micro-transations and other forms of RMT possibly as a counter to the countless scammers already working on ways to pilfer gil and accounts not even in existence. WoW accounts are getting phished, keylogged, and otherwise hacked by the thousands. At what point does a game you're playing become worth more to someone else than it is worth to you?

How long till we join "secure communities", where your accounts are IP logged for security purposes, move from authenticators to fingerprint scanners already found on some laptops. How far are you willing to go, to secure something that should be a hobby, something you enjoy and play with friends in your free time. What is it worth to you?

Edit for Clarification: At what point does the cost to maintain and secure a computer & account outweigh the enjoyment you get from it.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 11:18pm by desmar
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#2 Jun 08 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't see what the actual question here is, really.

Are you asking whether we feel that an *SE Store* where we can buy in-game things with RL money is a good\bad\indifferent idea?

Are you asking whether Security tokens and other such devices meant to protect the account is a good\bad\indifferent idea?

Are you implying that we won't be able to play a game without a fingerprint reader (I read it as almost mark of the beast paranoia) in the near future?


#3 Jun 08 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
I don't see what the actual question here is, really.


I didn't either, so I'm just going to use your post as a starting point if that's okay.

Torrence wrote:
Are you asking whether we feel that an *SE Store* where we can buy in-game things with RL money is a good\bad\indifferent idea?


It's one thing for a free game to offer a cash shop that offers ingame weapons/armor/etc. That's how they make their money, since the game is free. But I'd personally be totally against a game that has a monthly subscription AND sells items in a cash shop which affect gameplay. It's one thing if they're novelty items like WoW's pets or the FFXI Harpsichord. The limit is "convenience items" like the Tidal Talisman or WoW's Celestial Steed. Once they start selling items that you can use that directly affect the rate at which you kill/are killed, that's when it's too much, IMO. It's one thing to not have shineys because you don't want to pay for them, but it's another to be "second best" for no other reason than because you're unwilling for fork out large amounts of cash in addition to a monthly fee.

Torrence wrote:
Are you asking whether Security tokens and other such devices meant to protect the account is a good\bad\indifferent idea?


I not only think they're great, I think they should be REQUIRED for all accounts. A security token should come WITH the game.

Torrence wrote:
Are you implying that we won't be able to play a game without a fingerprint reader (I read it as almost mark of the beast paranoia) in the near future?


Fingerprint reader would be pretty spiffy. Would also limit account sales, if your fingerprint is permanently tied to your account and is unchangeable.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 3:03pm by Mikhalia
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#4 Jun 08 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
It's one thing if they're novelty items like WoW's pets or the FFXI Harpsichord


I draw the line before this, even. I feel that if I'm paying a subscription fee, fluff items should be included within it as well. I fear the slippery slope of allowing RMT into games, even for trivial means. Gotta draw a hard line.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 6:50pm by Eske
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#5 Jun 08 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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This whole hacking issue would be a non-issue if people took simple care of their computer security. Get a good internet security program and don't click on links or download from sites you don't trust (no, you don't trust **** sites or sites that offer pirated material)...that's all you need to do to be secure.
#6 Jun 08 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
This whole hacking issue would be a non-issue if people took simple care of their computer security. Get a good internet security program and don't click on links or download from sites you don't trust (no, you don't trust **** sites or sites that offer pirated material)...that's all you need to do to be secure.


and ensure you have anti-script functions present on your browser to prevent sneak attacks from sites you thought you could trust
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#7 Jun 08 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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If people were more careful with their belongings they wouldn't have to worry about them being lost. I think the line is drawn at personal security...if you don't take the necessary steps to protect yourself only you are to blame. Hopefully you take it as a lesson to grow and take better care of your personal belongings.
#8 Jun 08 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I draw the line before this, even. I feel that if I'm playing a subscription fee, fluff items should be included within it as well. I fear the slippery slope of allowing RMT into games, even for trivial means. Gotta draw a hard line.


This!

I agree with this point. If I'm paying the subscription, I should be getting 100% of the content. I suppose, if they wanted to make it free to play, micro transactions would be a way to get more content. I much prefer the flat fee monthly subscription, though.

As far as the security issue, I feel there's a balance to be had. I need to be responsible with my digital information such as passwords, but the company I'm paying for my entertainment should also have some safeguards in place.
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#9 Jun 08 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
Eske wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
It's one thing if they're novelty items like WoW's pets or the FFXI Harpsichord


I draw the line before this, even. I feel that if I'm paying a subscription fee, fluff items should be included within it as well. I fear the slippery slope of allowing RMT into games, even for trivial means. Gotta draw a hard line.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 6:50pm by Eske



100% agree.
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#10 Jun 08 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I think what the OP is saying is this.

Just how much money do you have to spend to insure your game is just that YOUR GAME.
IF you game for say 2 years and have built up your CHR for them 2 years to oneday log in and see it totaly wiped out How would you feal.

I played FFXI off and on for 6 years. The tokes came out like what 2 years ago?
When you 1st joined you had an agreement with SE that thay wouldent sell your info to 3rd parties. And that all your info would be secure. Sence you had your Credit card info and home addrerss listed with them.

Then thay ( SE ) offered the Token for 10 bucks. I never got one. Only because i said why should i fork over 10 more dollars for something there saposed to be doing anyway.

#11 Jun 08 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Just how much money do you have to spend to insure your game is just that YOUR GAME.
IF you game for say 2 years and have built up your CHR for them 2 years to oneday log in and see it totaly wiped out How would you feal.


I played FFXI from PS2 release. I can't remember exactly when that was. My account was hacked in that rash of hackings two or three years ago. I felt violated and helpless. I had an anti-virus program. I had an adware program. I ran regular scans. I had none of the trojans or keyloggers on my computer, but somehow my account was still stolen and sold. However, I was never mad at SE for any of this (I was furious at how they treated people whose accounts were hacked and the stone age policies they had in place, but that's another thread), I was mad at the hackers. At the RMT. At the people who bought gil in the first place that created the situation.

Had I thought for a second it could happen to me when I was reasonably sure my computer was pretty secure, I would have happily forked over a measly $10 for a security token.

Quote:

Then thay ( SE ) offered the Token for 10 bucks. I never got one. Only because i said why should i fork over 10 more dollars for something there saposed to be doing anyway


Let's be clear on this, and it's been said a couple times already in different ways: SE is a business; they are a game company. They are supposed to provide a game, content for that game, and access to the game for their users. Nowhere is it expected that they are responsible for the security of your computer.

I also support the idea of security tokens and I'm considering getting one for my FFXIV account. I think it's almost arrogant of a user base to assume that the company should be responsible for the safety of personal computers. Should they provide ways to make it more safe? Sure. But they have to design, monitor, and maintain such systems, so it'll cost money. Should they protect your information from third parties? Absolutely. However, we simply cannot expect them to be responsible for things out of their control - like hackings and/or targeted third party attacks. Or people being morons with their information and their internet security on their own home computer.

The game will always be YOUR game. Your account and computer are another story entirely. Take responsibility for it.
#12 Jun 08 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Agree with dalm here. SE isn't responsible for the security of your computer. They are responsible for the security of their game, making sure nobody can hack it, but 99.99% of the time when you are "hacked" it has nothing to do with the game you were playing but the websites you've been visiting.
#13 Jun 08 2010 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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burtonsnow wrote:
If people were more careful with their belongings they wouldn't have to worry about them being lost. I think the line is drawn at personal security...if you don't take the necessary steps to protect yourself only you are to blame. Hopefully you take it as a lesson to grow and take better care of your personal belongings.


so now.... somehow.... it's the victim's fault that their stuff got stolen because they didn't protect it from the thief....? is that what you're saying? because.... that's what it looks like you're saying.

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Edited, Jun 8th 2010 11:05pm by Kaolian
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#14 Jun 08 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
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LaFey wrote:
burtonsnow wrote:
If people were more careful with their belongings they wouldn't have to worry about them being lost. I think the line is drawn at personal security...if you don't take the necessary steps to protect yourself only you are to blame. Hopefully you take it as a lesson to grow and take better care of your personal belongings.


so now.... somehow.... it's the victim's fault that their stuff got stolen because they didn't protect it from the thief....? is that what you're saying? because.... that's what it looks like you're saying. and that would be @#%^ing stupid.


From context, I think burton was saying that internet safety starts with yourself, in a manner similar to Yog's post. What crawled up your *** today, anyway? You're being a **** to people in the other thread you posted in today, too.
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#15 Jun 08 2010 at 8:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I draw my line before the token's like some people, but I do believe SE is well within there rights to sell things like the security token.

Its like...selling a warranty to a product. You don't 'need' it and its perfectly fine to say "I'm careful, I don't need an extra form of protection" but some people just feel safer with it. An added protection that might be for some nothing but a security blanket while for others its a very real item that protects them.

Now the inclusion of micro-transaction is another story...Purely from a economical standpoint if it works and people will use the micro-transaction then its a smart business move. If it alienates players and causes loss of subscriptions then its a terrible idea. Its success will be determined by the paying players.
#16Frebaut, Posted: Jun 08 2010 at 8:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Where would you draw the line?
#17 Jun 08 2010 at 8:55 PM Rating: Default
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i guess i dident really look at it like that for PC users. I played on PS2/ps3 upgrade. So i wasent really at any risk like a PC player would be. But if your stupid to look at RMT sites, Buy gil , Buy PLing , or Buy accounts then you deserve everything that happens to you. Its like the way people are today. If you work hard and take no handouts ( RMTS ) you will be just fine. If you try to get by with haveing other people do the hard work expect to fail.

Speaking of RMTS. RMTs are only there because people are to **** lazy to get or do things for themslves. But there is 1 and only 1 good thing a RMT can do for a game. And thats Boost the economy. Example take back in the day a Quake scroll sold for anywhere between 300k~800k now with the lack of RMTs that same scroll is now less then 50k at most.

But as far as XIV. I dont think RMTs will have much effect on the game because spells are learned like abilities , And i dont think the gear has much of an impact as it did in XI.

We will have to wait and see.
#18 Jun 08 2010 at 9:20 PM Rating: Decent
A couple of things worth noting...

First, with regards to micro-transactions, there are basically two distinct areas that game studios can dabble in. One is fluff items, and I can assure you that in that area, it has absolutely zero impact on RMT. The other is the selling of items that actually enhance your performance or otherwise give you a distinct advantage over players who don't spend RL $$ for the goodies. This could be things like gear or in-game currency, and it's still an enormously taboo area. I'd be shocked as **** if SE went anywhere near that category. Unless/until SE makes it clear that they're corssing over into taboo territory with the micro-transactions, we can all rest assured that their goals have nothing to do with RMT.

Also, as far as security tokens and the like go, it's pretty simple. SE can button up security on their end with the absolute latest security systems available to anyone but that's only one half of the pipeline that's protected. They have no control over what you do with your PC and all of the hacked/stolen accounts you hear of are the result of a security breakdown on the user's end. There are only two things a developer can really do to help you. One is to offer things like security tokens/authenticators. Make no mistake, this is not a cash grab. The people who make the tokens make a little bit of money off each one they sell (as they should) but the companies like SE and Blizzard aren't exactly getting rich off of them. Blizzard even has an authenticator applet for iPhone's that's absolutely free. They aren't trying to make money...they're trying to help their customers protect themselves.

The only other thing a game studio can really do is have systems in place to quickly and effectively restore accounts that were compromised. From the sounds of things, SE never really got that end of things straightened out. Blizzard has. They're quite good at it, and SE can be too if they're on the ball this time around with XIV.

Having said that, to imply in any way that a developer is repsonsible whenever a user's account gets hacked is ludicrous. You can only expect them to do so much and after that, it's up to each individual user to be savvy web surfers and keep their security up to snuff. Occasionally, little keyloggers and trojans will slip through the cracks and that's when you blame the hackers and hope your MMO service provider is on the ball to help you recover. Blaming the MMO service provider for the hack is neither appropriate nor helpful.
#19 Jun 08 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
It's one thing if they're novelty items like WoW's pets or the FFXI Harpsichord


I draw the line before this, even. I feel that if I'm paying a subscription fee, fluff items should be included within it as well. I fear the slippery slope of allowing RMT into games, even for trivial means. Gotta draw a hard line.


I actually disagree. In nearly every MMO, FFXI, WoW, etc, the best items are nearly unobtainable for the casual player. I had absolutely no issue shelling out 25 bucks, which realistically is what, two hours pay or less, for neat mount. I allows the non-hardcore players, or those with more stringent time schedules an opportunity to have the chance to have of the loot that they had no access to before.
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#20 Jun 08 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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Vambran wrote:
Eske wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
It's one thing if they're novelty items like WoW's pets or the FFXI Harpsichord


I draw the line before this, even. I feel that if I'm paying a subscription fee, fluff items should be included within it as well. I fear the slippery slope of allowing RMT into games, even for trivial means. Gotta draw a hard line.


I actually disagree. In nearly every MMO, FFXI, WoW, etc, the best items are nearly unobtainable for the casual player. I had absolutely no issue shelling out 25 bucks, which realistically is what, two hours pay or less, for neat mount. I allows the non-hardcore players, or those with more stringent time schedules an opportunity to have the chance to have of the loot that they had no access to before.


Here's where I'm concerned with the slippery slope, though. There will always be a person of better economic placement, who can comfortably shell out a few more dollars for something that the rest of us can't justify purchasing.

The last thing I want is for the server population to be stratified by economic status. And we shouldn't have to make a choice between playing at absurd hardcore levels, or shelling out an equivalent amount of cash. There's a more suitable alternative, which exists, and has existed previously, in MMORPGs. It just takes a concerted developer effort to test and balance their product.
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#21 Jun 08 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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For those who hate MTs, like me, MTs for anything are too quickly becoming a trend. (please excuse the long post)

First, no one wanted them in Pay-to-Play (P2P) or subscriber MMOs...
Then, some people were ok with it if items "didn't affect gameplay"...
The next step will be the types of MT stores people see in F2P MMOs.

I am totally against MTs in a subscription based MMO. The only way they are acceptable, which has not yet been implemented in any of the MMOs I have played, is if everything, everything that is put in the game's MT store is also available in the game for free. When I say "for free", I mean no real currency. If they decide to make it a reward for some quest or raid, or pay gobs of in-game currency, or make it a seasonal or other one-time offer, that's fine...

...but the trend of paying for a game (the subscription) and then paying again (MTs) for content is just taking advantage of the players.

Also, what some people consider "game changing content", others don't. Here again, some players are getting screwed. It's easy to see things like being able to buy some item that would give +6 AGI/DEX and +20 ACC in FFXI when no item in the game came close to that, but when it's items that people decide to play a game over or are normally included in like 99% of P2P MMOs out there, then it's not so clear. The players who don't feel this is fluff get screwed, and as the trend has shown, are ridiculed and silenced by most forums for "beating a dead horse".

The best example of this right now is Star Trek Online. This game was released with so little content that if it were a console game, there would have been a class-action suit for the degree to which gamers felt ripped off (Cryptic actually did have to refund a lot of the games purchased directly from them and refund a ton of their lifetime subscriptions). However, Cryptic has been adding items to its "C-Store" (MTs) more often then they have been adding new content. When the first batch of these items hit the store, some of them were things people raged about because they felt these should have been (and would have in almost any other P2P MMO) included as normal content.

...but because these items did not give any advantage to gameplay, the people who complained were silenced (their posts were actually removed by moderators and their forum use banned) and the community just rolled over for it instead of taking a stand.

The last point I want to bring up is the money issue. MTs for a P2P MMO are absolute profit. The people who say these supplement development or operating costs are either ignorant or just making up numbers. Game companies make so much money from subscriptions that they easily cover those costs (Blizzard makes over $1 billion a year; you think they need MTs?). Again, MTs are just profit.

I realize that convenience (and gamer laziness) will trump any anti-MT argument out there, but that doesn't mean that MTs don't take advantage of players. And if you are neutral or like MTs, consider that not everyone is comfortable with the idea of paying more when they're already paying a subscription. If you are for them, you were willing to pay anyway; if you aren't, you're screwed as soon as they're added because no company is ever going to remove something that is nothing but profit after they have put it in place...

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 11:38pm by WooShoo
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#22LaFey, Posted: Jun 08 2010 at 11:01 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) people keep saying really stupid things. if safety starts with oneself, it is in the context of not stealing other peoples' stuff, not in defending oneself from immorality that has no place in a civilized society in the first place.
#23 Jun 08 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
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LaFey wrote:
Eske wrote:
From context, I think burton was saying that internet safety starts with yourself, in a manner similar to Yog's post. What crawled up your *** today, anyway? You're being a **** to people in the other thread you posted in today, too.


people keep saying really stupid things. if safety starts with oneself, it is in the context of not stealing other peoples' stuff, not in defending oneself from immorality that has no place in a civilized society in the first place.

of course, we live in the real world, but it doesn't change the principle: you didn't do something wrong by being stolen from.


I'll elaborate: I highly doubt that burton was suggesting that the hacker isn't directly at fault for the theft, rather, I think he was reflecting on liability in situations where SE isn't at fault (i.e: Yog's post). I think you're just taking things out of context in order to justify getting on your soapbox.

But to be honest, I mostly have an issue with this:

Admin edit: removed

Edited, Jun 9th 2010 1:13am by Eske

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 11:06pm by Kaolian
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#25 Jun 08 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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LaFey wrote:
Eske wrote:
But to be honest, I mostly have an issue with this:

LaFey wrote:
that's what it looks like you're saying. and that would be @#%^ing stupid


because...? because it's rude? if i just disagreed, i would be polite. why be polite about an obvious absurdity? i'll tell the emperor that he's naked if he is, and shame on you for defending his august nudity.


You can hide behind that "I calls it like I sees it" defense all you want. My policy is this: if you shouldn't say it to somebody face-to-face, then you shouldn't say it to someone over the internet. That applies here. If someone is carrying themselves politely, then you treat them in kind.

That ought to be common sense.

Edited, Jun 9th 2010 1:46am by Eske
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#26 Jun 09 2010 at 12:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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#27 Jun 09 2010 at 12:15 AM Rating: Good
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I should have clarified my thoughts a bit better, but it seems like this discussion is going the way I intended. I'll make two posts with this one focused on the security and the other to clarify the RMT I mentioned.

I think security tokens are a good idea, but you can get around those and also use them against people. The way the tokens work is they use an algorithm that gives a secret code that is valid for a set period of time and then generates a new code at a given interval. If you were savvy enough, you could keylog someone with one of these keycodes and as soon as they logged into their account, you could login to their account management simultaneously and lock them out of the account. This actually happened to a small number of WoW players. Now true, you shouldn't be running executables on your computer unless you trust the source, but if you look at what the average user has to do to succeed at a game. Say you want to look up some information about min-maxing your class. You run a search for the website your friends in-game told you and get three or four links that seem good. However, if you look closely, you can see that these are paid advertisements designed to mirror the layout of the site you actually intended to go. The phishing schemes are getting quite a bit more elaborate.

Now you could secure your computer to the best of your ability, disable flash, turn off scripts, and otherwise take care of your machine. But what happens when the value of your account continues to rise? As long as accounts remain high value targets, the methods of theft will in turn increase in their sophistication. People that are skilled at securing their computers, passwords, and digital identities would be fine, but what about the average Joe? After having his account stolen two or three times, maybe he quits the game entirely.

Now this goes back to my question. Where do you draw the line? How much time and money do we need to invest in a game before the value of the account surpasses what we are willing to shell out to keep it secure and enjoyable? For me, a free key code generator is as far as I should have to go. By free, it should come with the game. There are digital versions of the Blizzard Authenticator available on iPods and Cellphones. Now I know SE is a Japanese company and probably doesn't want to put their technology on a North American device (iPhones/iPods), but security is something that should come with the game; especially when your S-E account will probably also be tied to all the S-E games you own. They have this Bronze/Silver/Gold tier thingy, wouldn't be hard to put a physical device there and a software device available for download on mobile devices.

If it comes to the point where a passkey generating device and a perfectly secure computer isn't enough to protect my account. I'll find something else to do with my time.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 11:22pm by desmar
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#28 Jun 09 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Good
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When I referenced the RMT, I was referring to, if I remember correctly, people mentioning Wada talking about micro-transactions taking place in FF14 as a potential safeguard to combat people selling services in-game. I don't remember where I read this article, but I was pretty sure it was in a discussion here on Zam. However, like Aurelius mentioned, it is a very dangerous area to start selling player upgrades in the store. I see that as increasing the value of the accounts and making them bigger targets for hackers than they already are.

Edited, Jun 8th 2010 11:32pm by desmar
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#29 Jun 09 2010 at 12:32 AM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
No flaming in the FFXI forum. Or Pikko will stew your brains and turn them into cutsey lunch sandwiches.


Might be worth it if I can get a dish named after me in her next cookbook. Even if that's because I'm the main ingredient.

Eske tartare with a side of Aurelius, anyone?

Edited, Jun 9th 2010 2:33am by Eske
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#30 Jun 09 2010 at 12:40 AM Rating: Decent
Eske wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
No flaming in the FFXI forum. Or Pikko will stew your brains and turn them into cutsey lunch sandwiches.


Might be worth it if I can get a dish named after me in her next cookbook. Even if that's because I'm the main ingredient.

Eske tartare with a side of Aurelius, anyone?


I ain't no side dish Smiley: motz
#31 Jun 09 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Good
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I was never hacked in FFXI, but i'm all for a security token system in place for FFXIV and i'd buy it from the get go.
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#32 Jun 09 2010 at 2:09 AM Rating: Decent
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FFXI players arguably have already tasted 'micro-transactions' - refer to the so called "expansions" from ACP onwards.

If there is great content and great advantage being offered for $$$ then the player base will likely support these kinds of offers, but if they are simply a means to increase profits (well, I guess you could argue everything falls in this category) then we will object to simply paying for items which become the status quo.

As for the whole issue as to who is responsible for their digital security, one thing to think about is the recent fiasco with Google. Their streetview vehicles have admittedly captured data payloads from unsecured and unencrypted wireless networks.

So who is responsible for intercepting/recording the data - the wireless network owner who was foolish enough not to set up increased wi-fi security, or the person sending cars around with the equipment which intercepted their exposed signals?

Anyway, like most people are suggesting, you can take the best of precautions yet still fall foul to criminal activity online. All I ask for is that buyers of FFXIV have the option of buying a security token off the shelf of your average retailer (as opposed to ordering online via POL).



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#33 Jun 09 2010 at 2:22 AM Rating: Good
Dik wrote:
FFXI players arguably have already tasted 'micro-transactions' - refer to the so called "expansions" from ACP onwards.


I'd call those more like Downloadable Content rather than Micro Transactions. MT, I'd say are more along the lines of what EQ2 has. There, you can buy potions to change your ***, race, name (or all 3 at once even). Among lots of other things like cosmetic pets, house furniture, cosmetic armor, etc etc.
#34 Jun 09 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I bought that authenticator, and thats as far or as much as I will spend on MMO security. I tend to believe that its easy to avoid if your diligent and award of where you are on the web.

Any more security should be the games responsibility if you ask me.
#35 Jun 09 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Dik wrote:
FFXI players arguably have already tasted 'micro-transactions' - refer to the so called "expansions" from ACP onwards.


I'd call those more like Downloadable Content rather than Micro Transactions. MT, I'd say are more along the lines of what EQ2 has. There, you can buy potions to change your ***, race, name (or all 3 at once even). Among lots of other things like cosmetic pets, house furniture, cosmetic armor, etc etc.


Yeah, addon adventures or new areas I would consider to be DLC. A Micro Transaction is when you pay money and directly receive a modification to stats/money/etc or receive an item/weapon/armor/furnishing/etc.

It's interesting that I've always been against micro transactions in general, but it seems most people in this thread are even less accepting of it than I am.

It also seems LaFey is working hard towards that banstick. Keep up the good work, dude!
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#36 Jun 09 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
...where your accounts are IP logged for security purposes...


I WISH game companies would allow that as an option. It would significantly cut down on stolen accounts.
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#37 Jun 09 2010 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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Caia wrote:
Quote:
...where your accounts are IP logged for security purposes...


I WISH game companies would allow that as an option. It would significantly cut down on stolen accounts.


This, this, a thousand times this.

If my IP comes up with a solid 2+ year history of "108.x.x.x" (US IP) every single time and then all of the sudden someone is logging on from 58.x.x.x (China IP), it should be blatantly obvious that that's not me. Especially if the most recent 108.x login and the current 58.x login are 5 minutes apart.

Granted, there are proxy methods to bypass IP blocks, but IP login trends would allow SE to flag "suspicious" IPs, or merely view a login history and confirm whether someone did indeed get "hacked"

And for people with static IPs, or IPs that change very infrequently, an option to limit your account's login options to only your IP, or IPs that a GEOIP lookup can trace to nearby locations would be nice (had Verizon lose service in my area a couple weeks back and all of the sudden showip.net was telling me I lived an hour and a half away).

Blizzard does it, apparently. When my wow account got stolen, the rep on the phone said she was "looking at the IP history for the account and it's VERY obvious" [that it wasn't me] and chuckled. Got my account back the same day, which beats the heck out of SE's "We'll think about it and get back to you if we decide to restore it. Don't call us; we won't call you either." policy.

Kinda spilling over from the customer service/community relations topic, but yeah.
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#38 Jun 09 2010 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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As I understand it having a Subscription Fee+MT is what made players foam at the mouth when STO came out.

If I'm paying a monthly fee for a game and they wanna make me need to buy things from a MT shop in game at the same time I'm likely to not play long.

A FTP MMO is a perfect place for a Micro-transaction store for things like potions and warp scrolls and such, but for a monthly fee game it's just kind of a **** move for the company to make.
#39 Jun 09 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Decent
Elmyrsun wrote:
As I understand it having a Subscription Fee+MT is what made players foam at the mouth when STO came out.

If I'm paying a monthly fee for a game and they wanna make me need to buy things from a MT shop in game at the same time I'm likely to not play long.

A FTP MMO is a perfect place for a Micro-transaction store for things like potions and warp scrolls and such, but for a monthly fee game it's just kind of a **** move for the company to make.


I don't expect SE to be offering anything you "need" in order to play the game for RL money. Someone speculated that in order to pay your subscription you might have to buy Crysta Currency and apply that to your account, which I think would be rather lame but if that was the case, it would be the only thing you "need" in order to play.
#40 Jun 10 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Elmyrsun wrote:
As I understand it having a Subscription Fee+MT is what made players foam at the mouth when STO came out.

If I'm paying a monthly fee for a game and they wanna make me need to buy things from a MT shop in game at the same time I'm likely to not play long.

A FTP MMO is a perfect place for a Micro-transaction store for things like potions and warp scrolls and such, but for a monthly fee game it's just kind of a **** move for the company to make.


I don't expect SE to be offering anything you "need" in order to play the game for RL money. Someone speculated that in order to pay your subscription you might have to buy Crysta Currency and apply that to your account, which I think would be rather lame but if that was the case, it would be the only thing you "need" in order to play.


If it's anything like Turbine Points in DDO/LotRO, and they're implementing it on top of a monthly fee, that's pretty much a dealbreaker for me right there.

If the game is charging a monthly subscription fee, AND they are selling items that provide you with a statistical advantage over the players that don't buy them, the result is that once you hit endgame content and players start requiring their members to fill certain requirements.

I was once in an LS whose requirements was that you had to give them your phone number, in case an HNM popped and you weren't online. I think it was a bit much, but I'd still prefer that to being in an LS that required me to spend an extra $20 a month on consumables.
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#41 Jun 10 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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If it's anything like Turbine Points in DDO/LotRO, and they're implementing it on top of a monthly fee, that's pretty much a dealbreaker for me right there.


You've obviously not played DDO. Spending cash in DDO let's you buy items, sure. But none of the are game breaking. You don't have to spend a dime on that game if you pay a monthly fee already. You'll be as competitive as anyone else. (Though, if you don't pay a monthly fee, you're locked out of a number of raids. These can be bought with real cash, but its generally less expensive to pay the monthly fee.)
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#42 Jun 11 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Caia wrote:
Quote:
If it's anything like Turbine Points in DDO/LotRO, and they're implementing it on top of a monthly fee, that's pretty much a dealbreaker for me right there.


You've obviously not played DDO. Spending cash in DDO let's you buy items, sure. But none of the are game breaking. You don't have to spend a dime on that game if you pay a monthly fee already. You'll be as competitive as anyone else. (Though, if you don't pay a monthly fee, you're locked out of a number of raids. These can be bought with real cash, but its generally less expensive to pay the monthly fee.)


I do play DDO. The VIP fee does give you some turbine points, but you still have a long time worth of playing (either through favor or through your monthly stipend) to buy 32 point builds or tomes. The benefit to the VIP subscription is that you get access to all the addons for free (instead of having to buy them one at a time) but the quickest way to unlock Favored Soul/Drop/32 Point is still buying them outright. And Monk can't be unlocked via favor at all.

You could argue that not having mnk/fvs/32 point/drow "Isn't game breaking" and you're right, but that doesn't mean I don't wish I had the extra points when I built my characters.

Main thing to spend the monthly points on is consumables, really.

Edit: In the end, if I'm paying a monthly subscription, I don't people should be able to spend real money to buy items that affect gameplay -at all- (healing potions, gear, etc)

Edited, Jun 11th 2010 5:21pm by Mikhalia
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#43 Jun 11 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Blizzard made 4 million dollars in the first 4 hours of selling their Celestial Steed, a vanity mount for $25 each. Now that they made that kind of cash more will probably come. I didn't really care for this type of thing in FFXI IE the panio or tele-coat. I hope it doesn't happen but it is shown to be a good way for a company to make money fast but it does turn off a lot of players.
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#44 Jun 11 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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I know I said this before, but I can't help saying it again. The MT argument would be over if companies just offered a way to get every MT item by some in-game method. Pay for it or work in-game for it, and people could choose for themselves without spending someone else's money.
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#45 Jun 11 2010 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Dik wrote:
FFXI players arguably have already tasted 'micro-transactions' - refer to the so called "expansions" from ACP onwards.


I'd call those more like Downloadable Content rather than Micro Transactions. MT, I'd say are more along the lines of what EQ2 has. There, you can buy potions to change your ***, race, name (or all 3 at once even). Among lots of other things like cosmetic pets, house furniture, cosmetic armor, etc etc.


I'd agree on the distinction, but MT have been in XI since launch with extra character slots, expanded with name changes and server transfers, and have continued to pop up. I know more people who paid for the Mog Satchel (which is a pretty potent item) than cared about the security token they got at all.



#46 Jun 11 2010 at 8:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I'd agree on the distinction, but MT have been in XI since launch with extra character slots, expanded with name changes and server transfers, and have continued to pop up


I don't mind paying a buck extra for an extra character. I was out of FFXI before you could swap servers, so I don't know what that cost. But, that seems more to me like you're paying for a service, rather than something that's an in-game item.

Where I draw my line is using RMT that would in any way give you an advantage over someone else who doesn't RMT. That includes: Consumables, gear, and such. If you want to drop your cash on a polka dot bikini for your cat lady, I guess that's not too big a deal if it's just for decoration. Where I have a problem is someone being able to spend dollars in lieu of time/ability for gaining a piece of 'real' gear, gil, or what have you. You shouldn't be able to spend your way to the best content in the game. Everyone should be graded on the same in game accomplishment scale. It then becomes easier to distinguish whether the guy with super uber omgwtf hammer of head pulping +1 got it because he deserved it, or if he just dropped $20 because he's lazy, or unskilled.

I personally took pride in the fact that I didn't have to stoop to the level of spending my money on gil. I always figured if you had to buy the stuff with your paycheck it was because you didn't have the skill to do it in game. For those that claim time spent in game is an issue, I don't exactly see that as a reason to spend real money either. If it takes 4 hours of farming, camping, fishing, or whatever, it takes 4 hours. Whether or not you can take that 4 hours out of 1 day, or a week doesn't really change the fact that it took 4 hours. In the end, 2 different approaches put in the same amount of time for the same result.
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#47 Jun 11 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
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I don't even like the "Anything you can pay cash for, you should be able to obtain ingame" because then anyone who has it brings up the question of whether you earned it or bought it.

It's been said that good gear does not a good player make, and this is true. But at least some good gear (specifically R/EX) endgame gear indicated some level of skill or time invested. If someone is wearing completed Salvage gear, it's probably reasonable to assume that they have done Salvage at least 3x and have completed at least one full area (Sure they could have just bought lotting rights, but let's set that aside for a moment)

The thing is, if you can obtain an item through cash with zero effort, you run into the following problems:

1) You -will- be expected to have it. There is no longer an excuse of "Oh I don't have the time to camp that". No matter how much it costs, if it affects your performance, people will expect you to own it.

2) You have no idea whether someone "earned" gear or bought it. The result is that any idiot without a clue and with a fat wallet can buy the best gear and then you have an idiot in good gear. The result is you NOW need a way to distinguish idiots in good gear from good players in good gear. Do the words "Link Achievement" and "Gear Score" mean anything? It any idiot can get spectacular gear, then not only can you not use gear to classify someone's ability with a cursory glance, but the good players with average gear will get the worst of it because they're legitimately TRYING to get better, and they're already at a disadvantage.

Even when you expect someone to have a Hauby/SH/Vermy, you're expecting that this person has invested X amount of time earning money to purchase it. Let's say you can farm enough gil for a Hauby in 2 hours. Let's also say that you earn $10/hr and you can buy a Hauby from SE for $5. Suddenly the following problems are created:

- The price for Hauby will have to drop significantly before you'd pay ingame money for it, which would hurt crafters.
- Less Haubys will sell if people can just pay a fiver and get instahauby'd, which drives demand down which hurts crafters even more.
- Since more people would rather buy gear with $$ instead of gil, fewer people will be farming, meaning less supply of crafting mats, which ALSO hurts crafters.

Any time you introduce an item, even a non craftable item (say sky or sea gear) into a cash shop, the question becomes this: Will it take longer to earn the game with time spent ingame or with money?

Anyone who has gone months at a time with no drop in Dynamis/Sky/Salvage/Pick your poison can understand this concept. At some point along the road, don't you sit and say to yourself "If I could just buy it for 10 bucks, I would, just to be done with this ****"

Sorcerer's Coat isn't exactly spectacular, but after being 4/5 on BLM AF2 for 8 months... I probably would have been willing to pay 5-10 bucks for it around month 4. And that's not fair. Money shouldn't buy "a way to bypass the system".

I'd still be fine with the ability to purchase intangibles (name change, server change, mog house furnishings) although many people still think that's too far. I still say that whether you can get it in the game or not... anything that will affect your performance (by making you stronger/faster/better/tougher) over someone who does not also have that item... is unwelcome in a subscription based game.
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#48 Jun 11 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia, while I agree with not wanting them at all, the trend is against people who don't. The point I brought up isn't "what I would like to see", it's "what I can live with". If MTs have to be in the game, then I want a way to get that gear without ever paying more than my subscription. While this may mean that players with no skill will be seen well-equipped at endgame, I'll take that any day over having to pay extra for things that should be available freely in-game, let alone having to pay extra just to have acceptable gear.

Given a choice, I'd never let MTs be a part of an MMO.
(to clarify, I don't consider administrative things like name/server changes to be MTs)
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#49 Jun 12 2010 at 3:10 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia: I understand your reasoning (though, I disagree with portions of it -- see below). Thing is, you can already do all that. Anyone who buys gil can simply buy what they need or buy the drops from a given MT/Dynamis/whatever. Its all already in game, its just that you're "not allowed" to do it. Being not allowed doesn't stop people from doing it.

As for hosing crafters, I disagree. Crafters will only make stuff if its profitable to do so. If the components fox X are 2M, but the product only goes for 1M, then no sane crafter would make X. Supply and demand will eventually equal out and crafters don't get hurt (if they're halfway intelligent).

Case in point: EQ2 had servers that allowed people to buy and sell things for real money. I actually made a fair bit of cash being a crafter in that game. If you knew what you were doing, you could basically play for free.

The storm is coming. More and more games are going with some form of MT in one way or another. And FFXI has done it forever, though in a very sneaky way. Everyone who pays an extra dollar for a mule is gaining an advantage (and in the case of crafters, a pretty BIG advantage) simply by having more slots on the AH. I had 4 mules when I quit playing. Most days all of them were maxed out on AH slots. I was WAY WAY ahead of those crafters who didn't have any mules.

I don't much care either way if FFXIV has MTs or not. I'll adapt to any circumstances they can throw at me. I suspect a lot of people are against them simply because "that's not how an MMORPG should be run!" Well, to each their own. Though, in the not too distant future I expect pretty much any MMORPG to have MTs in one way or another.

Not to derail this with more DDO talk but...

Quote:
You could argue that not having mnk/fvs/32 point/drow "Isn't game breaking" and you're right, but that doesn't mean I don't wish I had the extra points when I built my characters.


Monk, Favored Soul and Drow aren't even worth paying for (unless you REALLY want to play that class or race). 32 point builds are probably worth paying for. Though, compare DDO to a game like Evony. If you don't pay cash for Evony, you cannot compete with those that do. In DDO, they'll have a slight advantage, but good game play makes all the difference. Would it be nice to have those perks? Sure. Its just that you don't NEED them to compete. I'm ok with games like that. Evony? {Thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass.}

Edited, Jun 12th 2010 5:15am by Caia
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#50 Jun 12 2010 at 6:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Microtransactions are making companies lots of money, I am ok with it as long as it is appearance items or fluff ( like appearance armor in eq2) but you should never be able to purchase something that is better than an equal item in-game.

Phishers and gold/plat/gil sellers are rampant in mmo's. They were ruthless in Aion, spamming constantly in chat channels so you couldn't even read text easily because they would use big icons along with text. Expect it in FFIX, I just hope SE is ready for them.

As for security, I am pretty sure everyone gets the "your account has been compromised" emails if you play any mmo. This is not always on the gaming company side either. Hackers have stolen email addresses from forums (like this) to get the email addresses of people so they could send them phishing emails. It has happened to me and confirmed by Aionsource.com forums.

Those emails look pretty good sometimes too. Never just click on the link in the email. Go to the parent site itself by using another browser window and type in the address.
#51 Jun 12 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Regarding "It happens, you're just 'not allowed to'": I really think the answer here is better policing of RMT ingame.

One thing I noticed in DDO is that when you click on someone's name, you have two options: "Report Gold Seller" and "Report Harassment". WoW had a similar option that was -just- for reporting RMT. In FFXI, if you wanted to report someone, you had to put in a GM ticket, wait 30-60 or more (usually more) minutes for a GM, and then tell them. By then, the person has been spamming forever by now, and may have already stopped and moved to a new character.

I think the ability to report spammers/scammers specifically as a spammer/scammer and, say 5 reports on the same person moves it to the top of the queue, where a GM can:
1) Ban the account.
2) Flag the credit card/IP for verification if another account is made with the same IP/CC
3) Restrict any trial accounts from being created from that IP for the next 2-4 weeks or more.

If they end up spending 10-15 minutes having to come up with new accounts (plus, say a 30-60 minute ban on account/character creation from that IP) for every 5 mins worth of actual "advertising" they do, it makes it far less profitable for them to be paying someone per hour and get 5 minutes worth of "actual work" out of their employees.

Furthermore, supplement this with gil tracking. Trace bulk quantities of gil and if you notice the same character sending out 1m, 2m, 5m at a time to tons of people, look into it. Are they an LS leader? Did they just do BCNMs with these people? Send them a tell and ask what's up. Talk to them for 5 minutes and it should be pretty obvious whether they're a legit player mailing out gil to other legit players, or whether the character is an RMT bank.

Are they a bank? Ban them, suspend every account that ever received gil from it for 3 days, and remove all that gil (or items of a comparable value of the gil received, if the gil has been spent) from their accounts. Flag them, and tell them that if they receive illicit gil again, ban them.

The problem with RMT is threefold:
1) The RMT have all the time in the world to make new accounts and there is little that prevents them from doing so.
2) The people who buy from them buy with confidence because buyers rarely get hit; it's nearly always the sellers. If you buy gil and you don't get banned, you're going to buy more gil.

Finally, and this is the reason why most of this is extremely unlikely to happen:

3) The gilsellers and gilbuyers are both paying customers. The gilsellers may keep coming back after a ban, but a gilbuyer probably won't. These are usually the "instant gratification" folks, and they would not want to start over; they'd rather move on. Fact is, most companies care more about keeping a paying customer (even if they are breaking the ToS) than stopping the problem.

It's just like jaywalking, failure to turn on a signal, loitering... there are some crimes that are just not worth the effort and time to prosecute.

Back to the point though...

I do see a lot of games going the MT route. I knew about EQ2 a while ago; I remember that they had polled their users about their opinion on sanctioned RMT; 1/3 were against it, 1/3 were for it, and 1/3 didn't care. That means that 2/3 were NOT against it, and so it became a reality.

I can understand how some people would like the idea of sanctioned RMT, even though I don't. My concern is: What about those of us who DON'T like it? Do the people who want a legitimate game where they can play without needing to be concerned with micro transactions ruining our gameplay not have anywhere to go if every game does it?

Even if they were to implement it in XIV, where you can spend money on items and such... limit it to certain servers. If WoW can split their servers into "Go here if you want world PvP, go there if you don't", why not split servers into "Go here if you want to be able to pay money to buy items, and go there if you don't"? That way, SE can still benefit from the profits that MT would bring in from the people who want to pay for them, and they don't have any effect on the people who want nothing to do with it. Because the way I see it, if you put people who are going to do it on servers with people who refuse to, you have an instant rift that is insurmountable.

Also, @Caia: I've never played Evony (or heard of it, to be honest) so I don't know what the story is there.
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