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Video: ZAM Interviews Hiromichi TanakaFollow

#52 Jun 17 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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You're not reading. You're not addressing the issues. You're letting your bias show. I've pointed out all the other zones...you're still stuck on Ordelles. I'd almost say you're being purposely obtuse about it because you just don't like the idea of jumping. I'm talking about terrain issues. Period. Jumping is one solution. Fixing the terrain issues is another. I've said as much. Address the issues minus the bias or drop it.


Oh I think we went through that already? SE needs to make the obstacles that they do not wish for us to cross more believable, problem solved. Or did you have something else in mind? I do not mean to ignore your points, sorry if I did.
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#53 Jun 17 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Check out this gameplay video. At 2:45 he gets hung up on a little clam shell or something. You can also see a bunch of 18" ledges that do not prevent you from accessing an area, but I guarantee will hang you up if you try to run over them.
#54 Jun 17 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
xXMalevolenceXx wrote:
Check out this gameplay video. At 2:45 he gets hung up on a little clam shell or something. You can also see a bunch of 18" ledges that do not prevent you from accessing an area, but I guarantee will hang you up if you try to run over them.


Those are exactly the kinds of things I didn't want to see. To me, obstacles like that don't add depth/interest to a game. They just add an aspect of tedium. When it's a case of just running here and there doing this and that, it's a nuisance. When it's a case of running from something that wants to eat your face only to get hung up on an obstacle that by no means would seem like an obstacle and wind up KO'd when it gives your attacker a chance to catch up, it's downright frustrating. On one hand, you could say that it just means you have to learn the terrain and navigate around things. On the other hand, you could say it's bloody ridiculous to be running along and all of a sudden come to a dead stop for no apparent reason. And just when SE was starting to win me over with what appears to be an evolved sense of game design, Tanaka has to make the comment that jumping would serve no purpose. Tanaka, meet clam. Clam, meet Tanaka.
#55Hyanmen, Posted: Jun 17 2010 at 1:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Beta, meet Aurelius.
#56 Jun 17 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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I remembered another one. That damned cliff in La Thiene you have to Z through to cut through to get to Ronfaure from the crag!
#57 Jun 17 2010 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
Hyanmen wrote:
Beta, meet Aurelius.

Aurelius, meet beta.


Don't even. It's not going to change for retail. That's not a bug...that's how it was in XI and that's how it's going to be in XIV. And it's a shame, really.

Pikko wrote:
I remembered another one. That damned cliff in La Thiene you have to Z through to cut through to get to Ronfaure from the crag!


That was a bad one...and they were all over La Theine, too. I'm not opposed to terrain features where you can see where you want to go and have to figure out how to get there, but when it's a series of knee-height ledges preventing you from getting there, it just irks.
#58 Jun 17 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't even. It's not going to change for retail. That's not a bug...that's how it was in XI and that's how it's going to be in XIV. And it's a shame, really.


You could move over very small objects in XI, but you don't remember those; you do remember the times you couldn't though, of course.
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#59 Jun 17 2010 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
Hyanmen wrote:
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Don't even. It's not going to change for retail. That's not a bug...that's how it was in XI and that's how it's going to be in XIV. And it's a shame, really.


You could move over very small objects in XI, but you don't remember those; you do remember the times you couldn't though, of course.


Yes, I do recall pebbles and some grass as being things that you could move over. Thanks for reminding me.
#60 Jun 17 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Those gripes about XI aside, I actually don't really care about jumping. If it's there, it's there, if it's not, I've lived without it 8 years. Imo, there's no difference between having jump and just being able to walk up a little divot. I am glad to get an answer to why there is none though.

I do wish we could swim still! Smiley: mad Still hoping we can do that, cause underwater dungeons are really fun.
#61 Jun 17 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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I like how out of the interview, the thing that we decided to discuss was jumping.

<rant>
That clam incident makes me sad. It really makes me wonder how much homework SE did on FFXI complaints. The look on Tanaka's face told me he never even heard that question before or the reasons behind it.

I agree with Aureiuls on this subject. I can live without jumping. I'm not sure if I can live with bad obstacles.

In some places they got it right in FFXI. Street curbs in Sandy for instance.
However, getting stuck on terrain was too common. I died several times due to bumps in terrain.

Also knee high fences in promyvion mea are just tick me off. They couldn't have made them = height of the character?
</rant>

Anyways it gave us a little insight into some interesting things. Pretty good for a short interview.
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#62 Jun 17 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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FYI, keep in mind that interviews tend to be much longer, but translation of the question plus translation of the answer tends to add a lot of "downtime" to interviews with Tanaka.
#63 Jun 17 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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#64 Jun 17 2010 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
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Pikko wrote:
I do wish we could swim still! Smiley: mad Still hoping we can do that, cause underwater dungeons are really fun.


I'm really okay with them not implementing swimming, personally. I suppose it'd be alright if you can't fight while swimming, though there are certain to be issues with how mobs give chase in water. I've played a few games where you could fight while in water, and it always looks ridiculous.
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#65 Jun 17 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
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Aramail wrote:
I like how out of the interview, the thing that we decided to discuss was jumping.


Sing it, brother Aramail!

Look, there's almost nothing that bugs me as much as getting tripped up by shin high "obstructions"...

...except perhaps spending the next five years surrounded by a population bouncing and doing flips everywhere like I accidentally walked onto some X-Games pogo stick course.

So either way, I lose. :( But it's nothing I'm gonna focus my attention on. I'm hoping for XIV to be a fantastic game, but I've never deluded myself that it will be the perfect game. I'll hope that through testing the populace can identify stupid areas where rocks/clams/step-high ledges are preventing movement, and that the dev team will ammend the area with either access or a more believable barrier. But I know it won't be perfect, and when I encounter one I'll grumble a bit and get on with my day.
#66 Jun 17 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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3D is a fad.


Immersion is not a fad. This seems to be the same mentality of people who think that motion controls are a gimmick or a fad. They're not. People may always play video games on a gamepad and a 2D monitor, but they will not always be the predominant hardware. Video games are, afterall, little more than a substitute for fully virtual realities until we obtain that technology.
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#67 Jun 17 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I suppose a lot of the need for jumping can be minimised with good map design, but there certainly were a few examples where it was frustrating:

a) La Theine (as Pikko mentioned)
b) Jeuno airship dock ramps (going down the ramp the long way often meant missing the airship by a few seconds!)
c) Can't remember the name of those dungeon caves up to get to the San D'Oria BCNM site, but plenty of little rocks caused pathfinding difficulty
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#68 Jun 17 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
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3D is a fad.


Immersion is not a fad. This seems to be the same mentality of people who think that motion controls are a gimmick or a fad. They're not. People may always play video games on a gamepad and a 2D monitor, but they will not always be the predominant hardware. Video games are, afterall, little more than a substitute for fully virtual realities until we obtain that technology.


Well, this particular iteration of 3D could very well be a fad. This isn't the first time that video games/movies have experimented in 3D technology, after all.

I agree that eventually, some implementation of 3D technology will become a standard. But we don't know if it'll be a steady progression to that level, or if people will lose interest as this current iteration stalls. If the latter were to happen, then you could say that it's just a fad, for the time being.
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#69 Jun 17 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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Not to derail a thread about jumping, but I'd just like to say this...

Remember that thread a while back about how "SE always talks to their JP audience with Dengeki and Famitsu but never their NA audience" where the counterpoint was "Well what do you really want them to do? They expect it will be translated anyway!"

This is nice. I like when SE has someone sit down and give a one on one with NA media. Sure, it's silly, but it's just one of those "Hey, we care about your opinion" things that go a long way.

Regarding jumping, I put myself on the "It's not a big deal to not have it so long as we don't find ourselves encumbered by knee high obstacles" camp. There were some places in XI like Yuhtunga Jungle, Ru'Aun Gardens, Altepa Desert where a two foot "cliff" or a chasm below was CLEARLY designed with the intention that "We don't want you do go this way, we want you to go that way" or "This is a one way passage", or places like Jugner and Vunkerl where water was introduced as an artificial "border", versus places like Ronfaure and Sarutabaruta where it was intended to be part of the terrain.

I get the idea, from a designer standpoint, where you may not want your map to be fully traversable; you -want- people to go through a cave to get to the chasm below (La Thiene/Ordelles, Ru'Aun/Ve'Lugannon, Altepa/Quicksand Caves). But at the same time, there are particularly annoying situations (steps in Ordelles, "That rock" in Qufim) where the virtual barrier is just silly and annoying.

So yeah, I can live without jumping as a general rule, just so long as they can smooth their terrain and not have us get stuck in places like La Thiene or Caedarva where there's a slight bump that you have to walk around because a level 75 Monk is no match for a log half a foot in diameter.
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#70 Jun 17 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
Professor shintasama wrote:
Sir Aurelius wrote:
FFXIV is NOT going to support sanctioned user created addons. You can quote me on that.


Quote me when they're in the game thar, sporty. Not sure if you picked up on it or not, but Tanaka's response to that question is the same response he gives every time he really wants to be honest and say "No" but he doesn't want to disappoint people. "In the future, we're looking into" is Tanaka-ese for ********** off with the stupid questions", in case you haven't figured it out by now.
#71 Jun 17 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Professor shintasama wrote:
Sir Aurelius wrote:
FFXIV is NOT going to support sanctioned user created addons. You can quote me on that.


Quote me when they're in the game thar, sporty. Not sure if you picked up on it or not, but Tanaka's response to that question is the same response he gives every time he really wants to be honest and say "No" but he doesn't want to disappoint people. "In the future, we're looking into" is Tanaka-ese for "@#%^ off with the stupid questions", in case you haven't figured it out by now.


Yup. And the context the question was asked in concerned adjustable UI. He replied that it is adjustable, and that "in the future, we are looking into" further UI customizations through Add-Ons. It's a far cry from him confirming a FFXIV version of Questhelper or Omen Threat Meter will be allowed.
#72 Jun 17 2010 at 8:35 PM Rating: Good
Eh, jumping isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure, there are many places in FFXI that make you wonder. You ask yourself, "Why is this weed keeping me from moving???" , or, "Why is there an invisible wall here in Jeuno???". After playing some other MMo's, where jumping is part of the game play, i have seen enough. People just hop around everywhere. It tends to get annoying IMO.
I don't really want them to add jumping, but for the love of Altana, Fix the collision detection. I'm ok without jumping, but don't let a 2 1/2 foot bush stop me in my tracks.
#73 Jun 17 2010 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
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With a large world like FFXIV, i would be expecting at least a couple of collision problem. Hopefully the beta testing will weed out most of the problem area.
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#74 Jun 17 2010 at 11:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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"Why is this weed keeping me from moving???"


Probably laced with something, maybe LSD.
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#75 Jun 18 2010 at 5:58 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Professor shintasama wrote:
Sir Aurelius wrote:
FFXIV is NOT going to support sanctioned user created addons. You can quote me on that.


Quote me when they're in the game thar, sporty. Not sure if you picked up on it or not, but Tanaka's response to that question is the same response he gives every time he really wants to be honest and say "No" but he doesn't want to disappoint people. "In the future, we're looking into" is Tanaka-ese for "@#%^ off with the stupid questions", in case you haven't figured it out by now.


That's a Japanese cultural thing in general. Apparently they see telling someone "no" as being dishonorable towards the person you are speaking, so they skirt the word by using something vague.

So just as a general rule, if someone (Japanese) is telling you "We'll look into it" or "We will consider it as a possibility" or "We will see if such a thing can be arranged", it all pretty much means "No". As a general rule, if you ask a question and -don't- get a yes, it was probably a lengthy, more polite "no" they gave you.

Just another one of those cultural differences.
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#76 Jun 18 2010 at 6:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Dik wrote:
I suppose a lot of the need for jumping can be minimised with good map design


Sure you can make maps to avoid jumping, but you're limiting yourself in the immersion possibilities. FFXI is really flat because of these limits.
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#77 Jun 18 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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An interesting thing they could do about jumping is do something like they did in FF XIII where you could only jump in certain places and not have to press a button to do it.

That would eliminate the annoying 'jumping around the city for no reason' and give players a way to get over little annoying obstacles. Though it would be hard to know where to jump if you didn't have an indicator like those little colored circles in FF XIII. Those might be annoying to see everywhere.

But personally, I don't really care if they implement jumping or not but, for the time being, it looks like they are sticking to their guns and not implementing it.
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#78 Jun 18 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Default
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ShinoHaven wrote:
An interesting thing they could do about jumping is do something like they did in FF XIII where you could only jump in certain places and not have to press a button to do it.

That would eliminate the annoying 'jumping around the city for no reason' and give players a way to get over little annoying obstacles. Though it would be hard to know where to jump if you didn't have an indicator like those little colored circles in FF XIII. Those might be annoying to see everywhere.

But personally, I don't really care if they implement jumping or not but, for the time being, it looks like they are sticking to their guns and not implementing it.


Honestly, I'd imagine 80-90% of the people who strongly want jumping are "Jump around the city for no reason" folks, with the rest having legitimate concerns about tactics/strategy and the immersion of the game.
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#79 Jun 18 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly, I'd imagine 80-90% of the people who strongly want jumping are "Jump around the city for no reason" folks, with the rest having legitimate concerns about tactics/strategy and the immersion of the game.


That seems like a very negative view to have of people who simply happen to have a different view point.

For me, jumping is important because I can't stand getting caught on a rock or a mushroom or a 6" ledge.

If people just wanted to do something in order to be a spaz, they could just as easily macro an /emote of some sort to get the same feeling of meaningless activity.

I don't feel like the lack of jumping was much of a problem in FFXI, but I also don't feel like it would hurt to include it in FFXIV.
#80 Jun 18 2010 at 11:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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As much as I hate to get into the jump debate, I would like to put in 2 cents quickly. A lot of people who are pro-jump site the "It helps for getting over ledges that come up to my knee" argument, or alternately, that not being able to jump over such obstetrical is unrealistic (a waste of a third dimension so to speak). However, personally, I very rarely jump over something that I can just push myself up onto. Not to mention it is moronically easy to write a quick:

if (x1 - x2 < 6) {
--playClimbAnimation();
}

Where x1 is the height your character is at, and x2 is the hight of the object in front of him/her.

Then just record one more animation (for climbing things). There ledge problem solved. SE probably won't do it, but adding a jump is not the only way (or even the easiest) to avoid problems involving poorly designed terrain. Although personally I'm more of an advocate of just doing the maps right the first time so we don't have to worry about it to begin with.
#81 Jun 19 2010 at 5:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think The Legend of Zelda games from the N64 days and on is a perfect example of how platforming elements can work in a game that has no "jump" button. Walk up to a 6 inch platform and you jump onto it. Walk into a ladder or a four foot ledge and you climb onto it. Walk off of a platform and you jump or climb off of it. If there's a platform a few feet in the distance you could seemingly get to by jumping, you can run toward it and your character will automatically jump onto it when you reach the edge of your current platform.

I'm no game designer and I'm not exactly sure how difficult it would be to implement in FFXIV, but I think it'd solve every issue caused by the lack of a jump feature, and probably look a lot cleaner while doing it.
#82 Jun 19 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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Susanoh wrote:
I think The Legend of Zelda games from the N64 days and on is a perfect example of how platforming elements can work in a game that has no "jump" button. Walk up to a 6 inch platform and you jump onto it. Walk into a ladder or a four foot ledge and you climb onto it. Walk off of a platform and you jump or climb off of it. If there's a platform a few feet in the distance you could seemingly get to by jumping, you can run toward it and your character will automatically jump onto it when you reach the edge of your current platform.

I'm no game designer and I'm not exactly sure how difficult it would be to implement in FFXIV, but I think it'd solve every issue caused by the lack of a jump feature, and probably look a lot cleaner while doing it.
I agree completely with this. An aesthetically pleasing, practical ability.

Jumping, with these kind of models, simply would not look right. I'm sorry but with this art style I really just can't see it as anything other than disturbing. This may be my personal bias but, just try and imagine it. The "jump fever", whenever I see it in an MMO I instantly am recognised of World of Warcraft. Maybe thats because for the short time I played, nobody could stop jumping FFS. It was fine with that graphical, cartoonish style though. FFXIV though? I don't think so.

It hasn't been mentioned enough but for places the dev's do not want players going, they're going to put an obstacle there regardless. FFXI, places with small, unclimbable ledges were more oversights in the graphical department than annoyances. You can be sure that if jump existed, they simply would of been higher. And that makes them still annoying. Not as aesthetically annoying, but you just know that people are going to get really close and spam that jump button to see if they can actually get over, unless it's very obviously higher than a jump.

Jump button for FFXIV I do not think even warrants a strong argument, however, an automatic-action such as FFXIII or 'Zelda style' jumping / climbing does. I really hope they have something similiar to this on the release date but my hopes aren't up :(.
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#83 Jun 19 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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When you come across a few feet tall obstacle or ledge, do you "jump" over it? Or do you climb?

When you come across a more than few feet drop, do you "jump" down? Or take a sitting pose and drop down to lessen the impact?

I could see that if SE does something about these obstacles, it'll be similar to this. When you jump forward, you don't really gain much height than if you were jumping while staying still.
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#84 Jun 19 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
Susanoh wrote:
I think The Legend of Zelda games from the N64 days and on is a perfect example of how platforming elements can work in a game that has no "jump" button. Walk up to a 6 inch platform and you jump onto it. Walk into a ladder or a four foot ledge and you climb onto it. Walk off of a platform and you jump or climb off of it. If there's a platform a few feet in the distance you could seemingly get to by jumping, you can run toward it and your character will automatically jump onto it when you reach the edge of your current platform.

I'm no game designer and I'm not exactly sure how difficult it would be to implement in FFXIV, but I think it'd solve every issue caused by the lack of a jump feature, and probably look a lot cleaner while doing it.



This is exactly what I want. A 'movement action' button.
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#85 Jun 19 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
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3D is a fad.


Immersion is not a fad. This seems to be the same mentality of people who think that motion controls are a gimmick or a fad. They're not. People may always play video games on a gamepad and a 2D monitor, but they will not always be the predominant hardware. Video games are, afterall, little more than a substitute for fully virtual realities until we obtain that technology.


It's only been coming and going since the 50s; I'm sure it's here to stay finally, after 60 years...
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#86 Jun 21 2010 at 4:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, it's the exact same technology that's been coming and going. It's not like there have been any steps forward towards an actually decent implementation or anything. The concept is genuinely flawed, rather than being held back by the technology. /sarcasm

It still has to come together. You can't throw on 3D tech and suddenly amplify immersion several times fold. Motion control technology has to be further refined, and we don't even have head tracking yet.

Even comparing the success of 3D movies now to any other point in time is utterly laughable.

As for the jump discussion, I think SE has already programmed their answer directly into the game, for better or worse. Refer to sig.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#87 Jun 21 2010 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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Jumping:
I may be in the minority here, but the Zelda example is one I really dislike. If jumping is necessary, then I'd rather be in control of it, otherwise I'll end up jumping off of things I simply want to drop off of.

Jumping in games tends to look incredibly daft. So as far as emmersion goes, for me it does the opposite of adding realism and depth. Climbing, however, is a much more realistic looking solution, and it would also solve the sliding up/down slopes issue with the right animation. It would also reflect real life better. I could go weeks without seeing anyone jump anything, but I will see people climbing things, be they small walls, stairs, hills, etc. Climbing should also be automatic, with the exception of any dedicated vertical climbing areas added.

There is no guarantee that jumping would even solve some of the FFXI issues. Take the Meriphataud Mountains ledge example. You would assume that jumping would allow you to jump over the small end of the crevasse, but for all we know there is a vertical boundary there reaching to the zone ceiling.

Ultimately making well built zones is the best solution. When dodgy scenery is found, the devs should fix it.

Swimming:
I'm fine with swimming being in the game, provided you sink and drown if you are carrying anything sufficiently heavy, like a weapon, armour, lots of materials, just about anything really :P
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#88 Jun 21 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Gii wrote:
Jumping:
I may be in the minority here, but the Zelda example is one I really dislike. If jumping is necessary, then I'd rather be in control of it, otherwise I'll end up jumping off of things I simply want to drop off of.


Zelda actually handles that too. If you walk toward the end of a ledge, you either drop down to the platform below, or (if there's enough distance between the two platforms, and it's possible to grab onto), you can grab the edge of the ledge and then drop down. You only leap off of a platform if you quickly run off of it. So if they were to mimic Zelda exactly, you'd never be forced to leap off of a platform. Whether you "jump" or simply drop down would depend on whether you were walking or running toward the ledge.

Edited, Jun 21st 2010 12:19pm by Susanoh
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