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SE's lessons learned from FFXIFollow

#202 Jun 28 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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@Karl; What you're describing sounds like a diagonal progression system.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#203 Jun 28 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
I'm really sorry I have to go back to it, but LOL about all the 'which direction can progression go?? Can there be backwards progression? Is it progression if move while standing on my head?' talk.


By definition, progression is forward movement, I hate to say. Basically on that point, I have to agree with Aurelius, but for the wrong reasons. (and its not that I hate to agree with Aurelius, I agree with him frequently). You guys should drop that point, yes progression is forward progress.

What you guys should be talking about is what constitutes forward.

Does it mean bigger and bigger numbers? Does it mean more access to events? Collecting item sets? All of these can be considered progress. And, like most things, some of them will be interesting to certain people and not to others. The goal of any game developer is to figure out which ones they want to target. With MMO developers they want to cross this target as much as they can with the segment that is likely to be in to buying MMOs in the first place, or to somehow raise interest in a new segment, as was attempted with something like half-life where they made an MMO-like thing and tried to create a new segment. Its why WoW was so successful, they figured out a segment to appeal to that was basically untapped. People who were interested in games but not quite so hardcore.

It sounds to me like FFXIV is going to be sort of inbetween WoW and FFXI in target market.

In FFXI, endgame progress was quite time intensive. grinding merits to get those teeny enhancements, collecting gear with a linkshell were the main ones thing of, but there's other things that can be considered progress at endgame too. Raising chocobos and getting the fastest you can, or traveling the world collecting furniture to make that perfect mog house. Just because the progress isn't towards better combat skill doesn't mean its not progress.

WoW on the other hand, has what I call the hamster wheel version of progress. Its very easy to go forward in one area, the people who lag behind are basically pushed forward, and the people who move ahead find it difficult to progress, but given a little time that exact same content has rotated down to the middle of the wheel and is now much easier. Think of naxx 25, when the game first came out, it was on the up slope of the wheel. Only some people could do it. Now, it's basically the back of the wheel. You get handed gear that blows anything from there away just by running heroics that everyone overgears anyways. It always feels like you're moving forwards-- until that fresh 80 jumps on the wheel right next to you, or you take a month off the wheel and when you decide to get back on, it takes you only a few steps to be right back with the crowd you were with before. The redeeming quality is that you do get to see new content. That is nice. But relative to actual progress? You're not really going anywhere relative to the crowd. At least in FFXI, you can look backwards and woah, you moved far. In WoW you look backwards and you really haven't moved at all.

Also in WoW, there's not as many things to accomplish that aren't combat related. The achievement system was a good step though. I hope this game has more of a mix between things that are combat related progress and things that are not. I really enjoyed my mog house, and how hard crafting was in FFXI.
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#204 Jun 28 2010 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
You're being awfully abrasive over nothing. Can you keep this reasonable, or are you stuck in prick mode?


Are you serious? I'm not even being abrasive. You'd be the FIRST one to resort to name-calling, aside from being intentionally obtuse, using frustratingly ineffective argument tactics, nearly failing to make a post that doesn't suggest that the person you're talking to doesn't "know what they're talking about" and just generally acting like a pompous ***.

Frankly I'm amazed at the relative civility other people are showing you; you sure as **** haven't earned it.

No, see, what's really going on here, is that I'm right, and you have no legitimate counterpoint, so you're being evasive about the point under the guise of being too civil to cohort with a testy rapscallion like myself. I don't know who you think you're fooling, but it sure ain't me.


So the pompous *** bit is okay as long as it's you who's doing it, amirite?

You guys botched the **** out of this entire discussion. Rather than keep it simple and focus on the point...ie. one system excludes a significant portion of players altogether based on preference and the other does not...it had to be situational this and what about that and all this other tangential ******** that doesn't matter. It's not a difficult concept. It's not about applying more validity to one approach than the other. It's about the mass appeal SE alluded to with their "something for everyone" comment and the naive ignorance of the people here doing what they have ALWAYS DONE, which is to ignore what we have been told because it's not what they want to hear.

You CANNOT have vertical and horizontal progression at the same time, and you DO NOT get to come up with your own definition of horizontal progression because it better suits your argument than the term in common usage. Horizontal progression means sidegrades. It means your character takes a step forward in one category and back in another. That's it. If you're adding to your character without taking away in some other area, it's not horizontal progression...it's vertical. If you have vertical progression "at the same time", the overall increases obsolete the sidegrades. These are facts. These are facts that you have failed to address. All you've done for the last page is take shots and me and tell me I'm wrong with absolutely no other substance to your posts. You're trolling.

So be a sport and knock it off. You've proven nothing. You've made up your own little fantasy definitions of something you clearly know extremely little about, and you're ******** up the thread with frivolous nonsense.
#205 Jun 28 2010 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
@Karl; What you're describing sounds like a diagonal progression system.


It doesn't really matter to me what it's called. The important element to me is not the label that's attached, but the substance of the thing. I don't like planned obsolescence as a carrot to keep moving forward. For me it's just a stark reminder that the best way to get ahead in the game is to not even play the game at all. I like a game where as time goes by, the experience grows richer and more diverse (and maybe even less focused) rather than having every thing converge to the same point. I don't really care if that's called "horizontal" or "diagonal" or "Expansion" ; whatever you call it, that's what I like.
#206 Jun 28 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So the pompous *** bit is okay as long as it's you who's doing it, amirite?


After you call me a prick? Absolutely. Though you were being a pompous *** long before then; make no mistake.

I'm getting really sick of your little tantrums where you just tell people that they haven't addressed your points when they have, and then tell them to stop posting. Diverting with ad hominem and semantic quibbling. It's rather sad for someone who clearly wants their opinion to be valued.

While we're being pompous asses, I know far more about the subject than you-- you who can't even grasp the core concepts of game progression. End of story. You say you can't have both, clearly ignoring the games that already HAVE both to varied degrees. FFXI had both. It's so incredibly easy to have both, that your insistence that you can't and attempts to misappropriate the terminology so that you can even pretend to be right on a wholly pedantic level are completely laughable-- you're a failure at both logic and civility, and please take your own advice: stop posting. Considering nearly all of the controversy stems around you, it's the surest way to deliver this discussion the mercy killing it so desperately needs.

If you don't want a reply, then I suggest you give me nothing to reply to.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#207 Jun 28 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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Technically, WoW has both vertical and horizontal progression.

Vertical is the obvious climb of gear Naxx > Ulduar > ToC > ICC (throw in some hardmodes along the way).

Horizontal is the achievement system, pretty much all of which is purely cosmetic and bragging rights, although there are a couple that give you 310 mounts but even that come cataclysm is just side grading. Even gear wise they occasionally toss out horizontal content (seasonal bosses often just drop, stat wise, items already available in game, likewise some dungeons come out that are the same ilvl as stuff already in the game, ICC 5 mans verse ToC 10 for instance).

So, the question really isn't which model to have, you really should have both regardless, it is more which one do you put heavy favoritism on.
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#208 Jun 28 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius, I've asked these two questions specifically to you twice. The first time you've dodged them and the second time you've ignored them. I'm going to repeat them again:

1) Are you in fact saying that you feel that NOT giving players a series of VALID progression OPTIONS, but instead forcing everyone into "This is the only way you can get gear. Period." is a BETTER option for EVERYONE?

2) What is the ADVANTAGE of taking a player who ENJOYS the event they are doing to obtain gear and FORCING them out of that event such that something they once enjoyed is NO LONGER WORTH THE EFFORT to do, because they HAVE to go elsewhere to "continue playing"?

I must also correct this:

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Vertical progression:

-Satisfies those who prefer the vertical model
-Doesn't fully satisfy those who prefer the horizontal model but doesn't completely ***** them over. The content is still there if they enjoy the content. The rewards may or may not still be relevant.

Horizontal progression:

-Satisfies those who prefer the horizontal model
-Fully alienates those that prefer the vertical model.

Vertical: something for everyone.
Horizontal: niche only.


Vertical progression:

-Satisfies those who prefer the vertical model
-Completely screws over people who prefer options

Horizontal progression:

-Satisfies those who prefer the horizontal model
-Makes people who want better gear have to decide where they want to go instead of just telling them what to do

Vertical: something available anywhere else.
Horizontal: something that is in limited supply.

Fixed that for you.

Vertical progression DOES ***** over everyone that wants options and everyone that wants their gear to last. The only people for whom vertical progression is better are people who are easily bored of content and constantly need something new to keep them interested.

Stop insisting that your method is good for people who don't like it, for no other reason than "lots of people like it, so tough sh*t if you don't because you're just a niche."

You keep saying sh*t like:

Quote:
one system excludes a significant portion of players altogether based on preference and the other does not


And it's a crock of sh*t. Both systems exclude players. I don't know if you're just saying "oh, vertical progression isn't bad for anyone" or if you honestly believe it, but it's a crock of crap.

I am speaking as one of several posters in this thread and one of several players who can definitively say:

I have tried "vertical progression". It has screwed me out of my enjoyment of the game and caused me to quit. I did not like it and do not want it. It does not "partially ***** me over", it COMPLETELY screws me over because it forces me to play the game not only "the way the developers tell me I have to", but it FORCES me to play the game differently every time the developers decide that they no longer want me doing content I may or may not enjoy, because they have new content that I MUST do, NOW.

You keep emphasizing the whole "SE said this" and "SE said they're doing that" and all, and normally I'm pretty much onboard with the idea that people seem to ignore what they don't want to hear if they aren't being told what they want to hear, but you're just using "SE said" as a crutch.

SE has said they want this game to appeal to a lot of players, but unless you have some quote to shut me up with, I don't recall ever reading anything where they said anything about their plans for endgame content. In YOUR OPINION, you believe that YOUR SYSTEM would appeal to a a lot of players and because SE "wants to appeal to a lot of players", you seem to have connected this dot in your head that because you believe an idea is popular and they said they want this game to be popular, that must therefore mean that they must want your idea in their game. Then you keep repeating "SE said it!" when in reality, they didn't. Shut me up with a quote from SE that explicitly states their EXACT plans for endgame progression or leave your opinions to stand on their own merits.

I'm not saying you aren't entitled to an opinion that I disagree with, but stop insisting that this WILL be the way it is with no proof other than the above.

As a counterpoint, PvP is a pretty popular aspect of most MMORPGs, and yet SE has stated that PvP isn't very important to them, right?

But PvP is popular! And they want the game to be popular! So they must want the game to be focused around PvP! That's the same logic you're working with when you claim that SE wants to use a vertical progression model.

I'm trying to calmly and rationally bring up counterpoints but I've noticed that I'm being disregarded so that you can continue arguing with people instead of actually discussing anything. I've been trying not to be abrasive, but you're only becoming more and more abrasive and responding to the other posters who agree with me (in a slightly less civil way) in an abrasive manner. I don't -want- to become abrasive because I think it's unproductive, but do I -have- to become abrasive in order to get a response?

You're not discussing anymore; you're just arguing. It is becoming quite clear (or at least you're giving off the extremely vehement impression) that you see no room for any opinion to exist other than your own, and after four pages of counterpoints that you seemingly can't come up with a response to, you're just telling everyone you disagree with to cut it out because you're right and they're wrong, and misquoting SE to prove your point, because anyone that disagrees with you is clearly just ignoring "What SE has said" (even though they didn't).

Again, I'm trying to DISCUSS the topic calmly and rationally, but given that you have been ignoring calmer, logical posts in favor of ones where you can "keep poking the bear" so to speak, I'm beginning to wonder if you don't even care anymore; you're just arguing for the sake of argument. If that's the case, let me know so I can stop wasting time addressing you in this thread.

So, in summary:

A) There is no proof as to whether SE is going to use horizontal or vertical progression. We can continue debating the merits of one vs the other but the fact is that we don't know what SE's plans are, specifically, because they haven't told us exactly what they are doing for endgame content. All we know is that "they want it to appeal to a lot of players". They haven't clarified ANYTHING endgame related.

B) Vertical progression is only enjoyable by people who enjoy vertical progression. Period. People who do not enjoy it are COMPLETELY screwed over by it, not "only partially". You might as well take away their car and say "Well you're not COMPLETELY screwed; you can still walk to where you need to go!" It's just THAT detrimental to them. You cannot argue someone is "only partially screwed" when you're not that someone; you're just being patronizing when you do that.

C) Answer the two questions at the top of the post so I don't have to repeat myself again, if you truly believe that vertical progression is a better system for EVERYONE. If you honestly believe in your heart that a player like myself who prefers options over replacements would benefit from a system I have tried and disliked, answer those two questions. Or just admit that the only people who benefit from that system are the ones who like it. That's fine too.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 2:12pm by Mikhalia
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#209 Jun 28 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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You would really think it would be far simpler to convey the fact that there's nothing niche about players wanting their achievements to retain their extrinsic value.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#210 Jun 28 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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You can definitely have both forms of progression in an MMO. Just because you have vertical progression in a MMO doesn't mean it has to be EXTREME vertical progression. I mean that you don't have to replace the entire set of gear with obsolete better gear every 4-5 months in order to have vertical progression.

For example from FFXI (which was mostly horizontal but did have both), sky provided a lot of gear for melee. Now when sea came out it could of just provided better gear then sky (which would of been your example of vertical progression) but instead it added mostly better accessories (rings/earrings/neck/waist etc). This is still a form of vertical progression because it provided overall better rings and earrings, which made your old rings and earrings (especially for mages) trash, but it didn't provide a whole set of gear which would replace everything.

So my point is, if they go the route of WoW and mostly go vertical progression, it doesn't have to be anywhere close to extreme vertical progression. I would (and the many people posting here probably would) rather have a non-extreme form of vertical progression, with improving your character gear in small chunks at a time, rather then just a full set every 4-5 months. There is a middle ground between everything situational (mostly in FFXI), and replacing a whole set every 4-5 months (like in WoW).

What if the first update (4-5 months in) improved your characters mostly accessories (rings/earrings), and then 4-5 months later the next update focused on upper body, and then the next update 4-5 months later focused on lower body, then the next could be weapons for each class and so on. This way at least at the shortest 2-3 years is when old content become irrelevant and not 4-5months. Obviously I'm just brainstorming here but there are more options then just situational horizontal and extreme vertical progression.

This is just with gear progression and you could add skills in this mix as well, but I'm not naive and I know that gear is the reward that will usually drive people to do content. Gear will always be the main reason that people do content in a game that involves gear. Horizontal and Vertical progression is possible, especially if you tone down the intensity of both. Extreme vertical and extreme horizontal progression however is not possible.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 2:21pm by HocusP

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 2:22pm by HocusP
#211 Jun 28 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
You would really think it would be far simpler to convey the fact that there's nothing niche about players wanting their achievements to retain their extrinsic value.


I predict an argument about what "extrinsic" means.
#212 Jun 28 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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To preempt that, extrinsic means everything other than the sheer personal satisfaction of doing it. i.e., players don't like for their gear to become worthless.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#213 Jun 28 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
It sounds to me like FFXIV is going to be sort of inbetween WoW and FFXI in target market.

In FFXI, endgame progress was quite time intensive. grinding merits to get those teeny enhancements, collecting gear with a linkshell were the main ones thing of, but there's other things that can be considered progress at endgame too. Raising chocobos and getting the fastest you can, or traveling the world collecting furniture to make that perfect mog house. Just because the progress isn't towards better combat skill doesn't mean its not progress.

WoW on the other hand, has what I call the hamster wheel version of progress. Its very easy to go forward in one area, the people who lag behind are basically pushed forward, and the people who move ahead find it difficult to progress, but given a little time that exact same content has rotated down to the middle of the wheel and is now much easier. Think of naxx 25, when the game first came out, it was on the up slope of the wheel. Only some people could do it. Now, it's basically the back of the wheel. You get handed gear that blows anything from there away just by running heroics that everyone overgears anyways. It always feels like you're moving forwards-- until that fresh 80 jumps on the wheel right next to you, or you take a month off the wheel and when you decide to get back on, it takes you only a few steps to be right back with the crowd you were with before. The redeeming quality is that you do get to see new content. That is nice. But relative to actual progress? You're not really going anywhere relative to the crowd. At least in FFXI, you can look backwards and woah, you moved far. In WoW you look backwards and you really haven't moved at all.

Also in WoW, there's not as many things to accomplish that aren't combat related. The achievement system was a good step though. I hope this game has more of a mix between things that are combat related progress and things that are not. I really enjoyed my mog house, and how hard crafting was in FFXI.


I do agree that I could do without the merit system. Taking a game where one traditionally "levels up", I look at it with the goal of "I am level 1, I want to get to level X" (where X is the cap). Once I get to level X, I now feel "Okay, I am done leveling. I can now focus on the "beating the game" segment in which I now proceed to get the best armor/weapons and kill all the bosses.

In the sense of an MMORPG, I see a level cap increase as "Now I have to start leveling again, which I don't want to do". I didn't really care for meriting because it felt to me like "I'm 75, I should be done XPing on this job and should be doing endgame events with it". Meriting just made it feel like you were still XPing (on the same things over and over; at least you changed location from Valk to Qufim to Kazham when you leveled up) but the benefits from it had significantly decreased.

I do like the hamster wheel analogy though. I expect that FFXIV will be "harder than WoW but easier than FFXI", but the hamster wheel is definitely something I hope they leave out of it.
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#214 Jun 28 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
You would really think it would be far simpler to convey the fact that there's nothing niche about players wanting their achievements to retain their extrinsic value.


How -dare- you take pride in a virtual reward? That's just silly.

Ever participate in little league games or a bowling team or any tournaments of any type, even a pinewood derby? Ever win trophies/ribbons for them?

Back when I was in Boy Scouts, I remember doing a pinewood derby. I came in second and got a ribbon for it. I've won bowling trophies and I've gotten plaques for perfect attendance in school, a diploma, my degree, and so on...

These are all accomplishments that I can look back on my life and fondly remember getting them. And years later, people still get pinewood derby ribbons/trophies and bowling trophies and plaques and diplomas and degrees.

They don't have to be better than mine to be worth having. They don't have to make mine worthless in order to have any value. And ****, if I want to join a bowling league again, I can still bowl and get trophies; they didn't stop giving them out because "Well, video games are better than bowling so we don't need to give these out".

I look at video games the same. I play a game to get rewards. I don't enjoy having to constantly replace my rewards with better rewards because my old rewards are worthless. I didn't have to go back to a bowling league every 6 months because my old trophy was all corroded and falling apart and the new ones were bigger and better, although I can keep bowling and getting trophies until I get tired of it, not when someone else tells me I can't (Well, unless I start sucking, which I'm kinda out of practice, so that may very well be the case but I digress).

And to the person who wants to quote this and say "But those are REAL, and this is a GAME": IDGAF. If I spend real time doing something, I expect any rewards I get to maintain their relative value for an acceptable period of time. "Real" or not.
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#215 Jun 28 2010 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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HocusP wrote:
You can definitely have both forms of progression in an MMO. Just because you have vertical progression in a MMO doesn't mean it has to be EXTREME vertical progression. I mean that you don't have to replace the entire set of gear with obsolete better gear every 4-5 months in order to have vertical progression.
Personally, I'd like to see more of this vertical progression than there was in FFXI because characters got rather stale after while. Everybody was wearing the same things, even across different jobs. SE would throw out new gear every so often, but the majority of it was never worth the bother to get because it wasn't any better than what you already had, sometimes worse. I'd like to see this type of progression, but with the caveat that in order to get the top notch stuff of new additions, you have to get or already have the stuff of similar rarity from previous content. This would serve the purposes of keeping older content in demand, let players still retain that sense of accomplishment from obtaining those older items, and prevent newer/lower level players from simply skipping gear and content because they know it will be obsolete in a few levels.

Basically what it comes down to is you have two or three (maybe more) "tiers" of gear at any given point in the lifespan of the game. The easy to get basic set (tier 1) which you can buy from a vendor, the moderate - very good equipment that is either crafted or obtained from relatively easy events (tier 2/3), and then the top notch rare/ex elite stuff (tier 4/5). In order to even obtain the newly introduced items from a particular tier, you have to have the similar item from the previous content in order to actually acquire it or unlock it's true potential. So you end up getting "Chestplate of Awesomeness" from the latest event they just added to the game, but you either can't equip it until you get that "Hauberk of Asskickin" that's been around the last year OR by combining your "Hauberk of Asskicking" with your new "Chestplate of Awesomeness" you now have a "Chestplate of Asskicking Awesomeness".

I know I'm probably rehashing what I said in an earlier post, but it's one solution that I think satisfies my personal gear cravings in the kind of MMO I'd really get into. FFXI gave me a sense of accomplishment from the hard work it would take to get certain items, but then it also made me feel like there were nothing more to go after for a while, even when I knew new content would be introduced. "Yes, I got a Peacock Charm. Feels fantastic, but now there isn't much reason to ever worry about the neck slot ever again other than for situational pieces." WoW was the opposite. Gear was replaced so often as you progressed that it felt like there was no point even bothering to upgrade at certain times because it would be worthless in a few more levels. You'd spend the work getting some great set, then here comes some new content that makes the stuff you worked to get look like trash and you have to start all over again.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 2:00pm by Harri
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#216 Jun 28 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Default
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
So the pompous *** bit is okay as long as it's you who's doing it, amirite?


After you call me a prick? Absolutely. Though you were being a pompous *** long before then; make no mistake.


See how quickly and easily I can drag you down to my level? How does it feel to be my puppet? I wonder if you'll think twice the next time you're about to mount up on the ol' high horse.

Quote:
I'm getting really sick of your little tantrums where you just tell people that they haven't addressed your points when they have, and then tell them to stop posting. Diverting with ad hominem and semantic quibbling. It's rather sad for someone who clearly wants their opinion to be valued.


I just want people to learn so that we can kill the XI forum syndrome before it becomes permanent here.

Quote:
While we're being pompous asses, I know far more about the subject than you-- you who can't even grasp the core concepts of game progression. End of story. You say you can't have both, clearly ignoring the games that already HAVE both to varied degrees. FFXI had both. It's so incredibly easy to have both, that your insistence that you can't and attempts to misappropriate the terminology so that you can even pretend to be right on a wholly pedantic level are completely laughable-- you're a failure at both logic and civility, and please take your own advice: stop posting. Considering nearly all of the controversy stems around you, it's the surest way to deliver this discussion the mercy killing it so desperately needs.


I qualified that long ago in this thread. I'm talking about the predominant system in place for endgame "progression". You can't have vertical to any substantial degree and still preserve worthwhile horizontal. The argument of vertical vs. horizontal has been based, by and large, on one side not wanting things to become obsolete. If the vertical and the horizontal are both perpetual, the vertical will outstrip the horizontal. In the context of XIV, considering there are going to be relatively heavy time penalties associated with changing weapons and gear mid-fight, the practicality of having an assortment of situational bits will be based on the encounter, not the ability you're planning to use next like it is in XI. That makes horizontal progression in the gear sense less viable. In the content sense, if you've got people able to progress vertically but are still pumping out content along some determined horizontal path, as a developer you're wasting time. Consider it in the context of level caps. Let's say the cap is 50. You raise the cap to 55 and keep releasing content tuned for 50. Waste of time. In a perfect world, developers would be able to tune content to be dynamic based on the level of your group and then do as SE has done with XI and allow level syncing for consistency. They'd still have to tune the content for the relevant vertical cap at any given time, and when they raised that vertical cap (so that you can have vertical and horizontal at the same time), they'd have to retune the content. It becomes a great deal of work for developers to have to constantly go back and re-tune content like that. That makes horizontal and vertical at the same time even less viable.

People are talking about "unlocking" abilities, content, whatever...that's not horizontal progression but they're claiming it is. Reallocating your stats in XIV would be an example of a horizontal adjustment. (See? Can't even call it progression.) Gaining a physical level (ie. having more stat points to allocate) would be an example of vertical progression. Leveling a new class for abilities to use on your prefered class would be vertical progression. Leveling a new class to take on an entirely different role would still be vertical progression. Farming a resist set for a particular encounter would be horizontal (or regression, depending on the available options for resist gear). Not viable as a sustained activity (see also: bloat). And if you continue along the vertical path (because we're aiming for vertical and horizontal), the benefits of the resist set start to get overshadowed by overall stat gains. Either you've got more health, better general defenses/resistances, bigger heals, more damage (shorter encounter) etc. Now the horizontal (resist set) is obsolete. Vertical has outstripped it. Horizontal is no longer operating at the same time as vertical. See? Can't have both to any substantial degree.

When you add...without taking away...it's vertical.

When you add...and take away...it's horizontal.

Pretend you have three stats: A, B, and C. You do <something> and you get...

Ex.1 ) +1 <A>, +0 <B>, +0 <C> = vertical
Ex.2 ) +1 <A>, -1 <B>, +0 <C> = horizontal
Ex.3 ) +1 <A>, +1 <B>, -1 <C> = vertical
Ex.4 ) +2 <A>, -1 <B>, -1 <C> = horizontal

That's the "pedantic" example, recognizing that few in-game examples would be so simple. It does, however, help to illustrate the point. All it would take for the vertical model to render the horizontal alternative obsolete in something like Ex.4 would be to do something that earned you +2 <A> without the penalties to <B> and <C>. All of a sudden the horizontal alternative has been rendered comparatively useless, meaning it's not diagonal...it was horizontal until it was replaced by vertical. They don't exist simultaneously...one exists to the exclusion of the other.

SE has said that the focus for XIV will be around "growth". Growth...getting larger. Adding to. All vertical concepts. SE has just upped the level cap in XI after how many years? And even bigger jumps before year's end? Sounds to me like they're trying to squeeze every last bit they can out of the game by making up for lost time. Pretty major step after this long and one they probably wouldn't have done if they were still convinced that primarily horizontal is the best way to go.

Everything that SE has said suggests very strongly that in order to suit their objectives, a predominantly vertical progression model would be the best fit. Not because horizonatl is top-to-bottom bad, and not because we want to alienate the people who don't want to see things become obsolete, but because the "horizontal" model doesn't support growth. It's supports situational benefit at best and stagnation at worst.
#217 Jun 28 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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The real problem I think most here have with vertical progression is more to do with what it does to the community.

If you look over at WoW as of Wrath, every time a new progression level comes out, the community moves to that, and never looks back. Naxx and Ulduar are ghost towns. No one runs them seriously (especially runs them at the proper gear level) because what they provide is irrelevant. Even ToC is little run anymore and it's just the 1 tier out of date. Even if you split up the gains so that Dungeon X only provides slots A B and C, inevitably you will obsolete the content that previously provided those slots.

Now, the other possibility is to rigorously enforce a progression on the players. This is more the Burning Crusade Model, where you couldn't really skip Kara or Gruul, and certainly not The Eye and SSC to move straight to Black Temple. The problem here is that it ends up being a road block, and lots of people don't ever get the real option to experience this higher content. But, if you make Kara and such too easy, then people once again quickly leave it behind and never look back as it once more is rendered irrelevant.

So, you end up trapped between these two issues. You want that old content to remain relevant and somewhat desirable to the play base, but not to the point of being a road block to experiencing other content. Again using WoW as an example, people still run all the old battle grounds because they provide the same honor points as the new ones. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem the kind of thing that works in PvE.

FFXI had an interesting approach with the level cap system, but it really never got put to much use as far as end game goes. Imagine if to run a BC dungeon, you had to cap at level 70. Suddenly the level 70 epics are a lot more interesting now. Now, if you add some rewards in that 70 dungeon relevant to the current level cap you might just get a bigger chunk of the play base going back to that old content even though it is technically obsolete for the most part.

Anyway, I feel like I'm starting to ramble, so cutting myself off there. :)
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#218 Jun 28 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Derekloffin wrote:
If you look over at WoW as of Wrath, every time a new progression level comes out, the community moves to that, and never looks back.
Heck, just look at when BC was introduced. You had people with the best sets of armor/weapons you could possibly get, then an expansion comes out and the common green **** you get that is one level higher beats the crap out of stuff it may have taken someone months to get. Having mid to low-quality gear be better than elite stuff simply because it's a few levels higher ruins any sort of chance of making previous content worth doing again, ever, even for new players.
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#219 Jun 28 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
SE has said that the focus for XIV will be around "growth". Growth...getting larger. Adding to. All vertical concepts. SE has just upped the level cap in XI after how many years? And even bigger jumps before year's end? Sounds to me like they're trying to squeeze every last bit they can out of the game by making up for lost time. Pretty major step after this long and one they probably wouldn't have done if they were still convinced that primarily horizontal is the best way to go.

Everything that SE has said suggests very strongly that in order to suit their objectives, a predominantly vertical progression model would be the best fit. Not because horizonatl is top-to-bottom bad, and not because we want to alienate the people who don't want to see things become obsolete, but because the "horizontal" model doesn't support growth. It's supports situational benefit at best and stagnation at worst.


There you go again, "SE said X" and "I think Y is X" therefore "SE meant Y".

Stop saying "SE said" unless you have a specific quote to back up EXACTLY where SE said EXACTLY what they will be doing in FFXIV's endgame.

Watch me now:

SE has said that the focus for XIV will be around "growth". Growth...getting larger. Adding to. All horizontal concepts. Adding more endgame options, adding more gear options. Since SE wants "growth", they must not want "contraction", since contraction is the opposite of growth. And what is contraction? Making content obsolete, making gear worthless.

Everything that SE has said suggests very strongly that in order to suit their objectives, a predominantly horizontal progression model would be the best fit. Not because vertical is top-to-bottom bad, and not because we want to alienate the people who want to be told what they should be doing instead of having options, but because the "vertical" model causes contraction. It's supports the notion that nothing matters because everything is transient at best and an ADD feeling of "must keep upgrading" at worst.

See what I did? I took SE's words, connected the dots with what I could assume they meant, and with absolutely no proof, went off on a tangent about how this is what SE needs to do.
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#220The One and Only Aurelius, Posted: Jun 28 2010 at 1:12 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You're wanting to have your cake and eat it to. You're wanting to do what you want to do and be rewarded for it. You can't always have both, and sometimes you need to just buck up and decide which you prefer on a given day.
#221 Jun 28 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Heck, just look at when BC was introduced. You had people with the best sets of armor/weapons you could possibly get, then an expansion comes out and the common green sh*t you get that is one level higher beats the crap out of stuff it may have taken someone months to get. Having mid to low-quality gear be better than elite stuff simply because it's a few levels higher ruins any sort of chance of making previous content worth doing again, ever, even for new players.


One level higher, heck most of the same level junk was better, so long as it came from outlands. Yeah, the transition to BC was a cluster *bleep* as far as itemization goes. Wrath wasn't as bad thankfully.
____________________________
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Main: RDM 75 (5/5 AF2), WHM 75
Subs: BLM 40, NIN 37, SMN 37, DRK 37, THF 37,
WAR 37, BRD 40, BLU 41
Other: MNK 17, RNG 5
ZM13, CoP 8-2
#222 Jun 28 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
Honestly, the easier way to work around this is not have such **** huge boosts each gear level. If Naxx gear was lower than ulduar, but still competitive, you solve a big issue. The gaps in WoW are just too extreme. Start of WotLK was ilevel 200 budgeted gear, and at the end, it's around 277. That's a range of around 40% power difference all for level 80.

FFXI did much better by having the gear have less of a boost from level to level. You were still mostly wearing high level gear, but even mid level stuff was competitive and desirable.

This means that if you were gearing for, say, ICC, maybe it would be worth it to still get ulduar gear because it would make you competitive, just not cutting edge.


(and personally, I want to see a game where armor is just for defense, I really liked the Dragon age system in that heavy armor was actually a penalty to dealing damage so you had to find the sweet point tradeoff on survivability for each class depending on how often they got damaged)
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#223The One and Only Aurelius, Posted: Jun 28 2010 at 1:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Except that your attempt was flat out retarded. I expected more from you. Sorry, but...that was just bad. Really bad. You're being so disappointingly ego-centric in fighting tooth and nail for your point of view that you're just being stupid. FFS...get a grip, man.
#224 Jun 28 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

You're wanting to have your cake and eat it to. You're wanting to do what you want to do and be rewarded for it.


Well, yes. It's a game. The best game design is the one that rewards you for doing what you want to do.

Quote:

You can't always have both, and sometimes you need to just buck up and decide which you prefer on a given day.


Only if that's the way the game is designed.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 3:33pm by KarlHungis
#225 Jun 28 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
Aurelius, I've asked these two questions specifically to you twice. The first time you've dodged them and the second time you've ignored them. I'm going to repeat them again:

1) Are you in fact saying that you feel that NOT giving players a series of VALID progression OPTIONS, but instead forcing everyone into "This is the only way you can get gear. Period." is a BETTER option for EVERYONE?


You need to start thinking long term and you need to start thinking big picture. You're talking about not wanting anything to become obsolete, so where does that leave you in 8 years? BLOATED. People will develop preferences and the more options you have in conjunction with the preferences leaves you with a fragmented playerbase. Options are good. Too many options are not.


I can agree with you that "too many options" may be bad, but too few is also bad.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
2) What is the ADVANTAGE of taking a player who ENJOYS the event they are doing to obtain gear and FORCING them out of that event such that something they once enjoyed is NO LONGER WORTH THE EFFORT to do, because they HAVE to go elsewhere to "continue playing"?


You're wanting to have your cake and eat it to. You're wanting to do what you want to do and be rewarded for it. You can't always have both, and sometimes you need to just buck up and decide which you prefer on a given day.

You're not thinking rationally anymore. You're better than that. Next post, think big picture (ie. address the consequences of bloat), think long term, or don't expect a reply.


I think the second sentence is pretty much a summary of the problem with your idea:

"You're wanting to do what you want to do and be rewarded for it. You can't always have both"

Why the **** not? Why should a player -have- to choose between "Doing what you want" -or- "Getting rewarded for it" in a game they're paying a monthly fee to continue playing? It seems like what you're saying here is that "If you want a reward, you have to do content you don't like, and if you want to do content you like, you shouldn't get a reward" and I think that's crap.

Regarding bloat: I did address it already. I said that when you add new content, integrate the old content. Let's make up some names so I'm not accused of linking an idea to a game.

Expansion zero (base game) introduces Castle and Dragon. Castle gives sword, helmet, breastplate, Dragon gives robe, staff, shield.
Expansion one introduces Volcano and Castle 2. Volcano gives sword b, gloves, boots. Castle 2 gives dagger, pants, necklace.
Expansion two introduces Dragon 2 and Beach. Dragon 2 gives ring, mace, shield b. Beach gives breastplate b, bow, staff b.

But you say "That's bloat! There are six different things to do, and too many items!". Here's my "solution" to bloat:

Castle and Castle 2 take 3 hours each. Completing either will reward you with 4000 "Awesome points".
Beach and Volcano take 1.5 hours to complete and rewards 1750 "Awesome points".
Dragon and Dragon 2 take 30 minutes each to complete and each reward 500 "Awesome points"

You can talk to an NPC in town (similar to the Dynamis/Limbus AF upgrade NPC or the badge/token vendors) and trade in your AP to buy everything from sword to staff b.

That way the players can do the events they want, and they can pick the gear they want. They can spend as much or as little time as they want in events, and they aren't forced into "old" events they don't like -or- "new" events they don't like.
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#226 Jun 28 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:

There you go again, "SE said X" and "I think Y is X" therefore "SE meant Y".

Stop saying "SE said" unless you have a specific quote to back up EXACTLY where SE said EXACTLY what they will be doing in FFXIV's endgame.

Watch me now:

SE has said that the focus for XIV will be around "growth". Growth...getting larger. Adding to. All horizontal concepts. Adding more endgame options, adding more gear options. Since SE wants "growth", they must not want "contraction", since contraction is the opposite of growth. And what is contraction? Making content obsolete, making gear worthless.

Everything that SE has said suggests very strongly that in order to suit their objectives, a predominantly horizontal progression model would be the best fit. Not because vertical is top-to-bottom bad, and not because we want to alienate the people who want to be told what they should be doing instead of having options, but because the "vertical" model causes contraction. It's supports the notion that nothing matters because everything is transient at best and an ADD feeling of "must keep upgrading" at worst.

See what I did? I took SE's words, connected the dots with what I could assume they meant, and with absolutely no proof, went off on a tangent about how this is what SE needs to do.


Except that your attempt was flat out retarded. I expected more from you. Sorry, but...that was just bad. Really bad. You're being so disappointingly ego-centric in fighting tooth and nail for your point of view that you're just being stupid. FFS...get a grip, man.


Well I guess that answers my question then. You don't care about discussing or debating, you just want to get abrasive and argue with people.

Fair enough. I just assumed you actually were trying to convince people that your idea was valid. If you don't give a **** about convincing anyone (and your last few posts are making it more and more clear that you're not trying to convince anyone of anything, you're just insulting everyone who disagrees with you, now myself included I guess), why are you still even posting in the thread, if not to just argue and be antagonistic with everyone? Or is that pretty much it?

Isn't this the same thing the admins were trying to keep out of =10 because it "scared away all the new posters" or something? For all the gripes you've made about how allegedly bad the =10 forums are, I guess I find it odd to note that you still have that attitude about you when it comes down to things you have no counterpoint to; that "I can't win an argument with someone" devolves into "I'm just going to be a **** until you decide I'm not worth the frustration to argue with, then I win because I made you shut up"

Again, I could say I expected more from you as well.
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#227 Jun 28 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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OK, maybe this is just more rambling but another idea popped into my head. It's almost something that could be implemented into FFXI's old *** system even since they've added this Magian trials and the whole augment system. Make older full sets of gear tradable to an NPC for some sort of reusable item that can be used to augment your gear or even the character itself. Maybe make it a key item in the case of character.

We already know you can trade full sets of certain gear to a storage NPC and receive a key item slip. We'll what if the key item for particularly rare sets also gave your character stat boosts like merits do. Example:

Trading a Genbu's Kabuto, Kirin's Osode, Seiryu's Kote, Byakko's Haidate, and Suzaku's Sune-Ate gave you a key item "Kirin's Essence" and provides your character a significant stat boost on jobs that can equip that set and are 75+? Another option is maybe instead of a key item it's some sort of Jewel that can be attached to piece of armor as an augment or the actual slot on the character, but can be removed if needed and traded back to the NPC for the original gear. Kind of similar to WoW's socketed armor system except that placing the jewel isn't permanent. Possibly even make individual pieces tradable for a jewel that can only be socketed to a specific slot. (Genbu's Kabuto exchanges for a Genbu Head Jewel that can be socketed to your characters head piece or slot.)

Give old elite gear some sort of purpose beyond it's original life, and you can have that vertical progression without completely nullifying the previous content. It's either that, or introduce new rewards in that older content which WoW did to a minor extent with the whole badge system but that still doesn't address the old gear itself and the accomplishment attached to it.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 2:55pm by Harri
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#228 Jun 28 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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Harri wrote:
OK, maybe this is just more rambling but another idea popped into my head. It's almost something that could be implemented into FFXI's old *** system even since they've added this Magian trials and the whole augment system. Make older full sets of gear tradable to an NPC for some sort of reusable item that can be used to augment your gear or even the character itself. Maybe make it a key item in the case of character.

We already know you can trade full sets of certain gear to a storage NPC and receive a key item slip. We'll what if the key item for particularly rare sets also gave your character stat boosts like merits do. Example:

Trading a Genbu's Kabuto, Kirin's Osode, Seiryu's Kote, Byakko's Haidate, and Suzaku's Sune-Ate gave you a key item "Kirin's Essence" and provides your character a significant stat boost on jobs that can equip that set and are 75+? Another option is maybe instead of a key item it's some sort of Jewel that can be attached to piece of armor as an augment or the actual slot on the character, but can be removed if needed and traded back to the NPC for the original gear. Kind of similar to WoW's socketed armor system except that placing the jewel isn't permanent. Possibly even make individual pieces tradable for a jewel that can only be socketed to a specific slot. (Genbu's Kabuto exchanges for a Genbu Head Jewel that can be socketed to your characters head piece or slot.


See, that all sounds reasonable to me.
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#229 Jun 28 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Default
Mikhalia wrote:

That way the players can do the events they want, and they can pick the gear they want. They can spend as much or as little time as they want in events, and they aren't forced into "old" events they don't like -or- "new" events they don't like.


Great idea...for a standalone game. As soon as you start pushing into larger groups in an MMO, spending as much or as little time doing what you want to do largely goes out the window unless you want to rely on PUGs for everything. I'd like to think there will be enough challenge in XIV endgame that PUGing content won't be all that viable. I don't think it's nearly so easy as you seem to want to think it would be to go with a system like what you're proposing.

And I can't say I appreciate the insinuation that your inability to let go of the past denotes ADD in other people. The gameplay mechanics in RPGs are built around vertical progression. Leveling and upgrading gear are the avenues through which that progression is obtained. I don't begrudge you your desire to want to be rewarded because the rewards for playing are absolutely fundamental to the genre. At the same time, I've never heard of someone quitting FFXI because they had leveled all jobs to 12+ and they could no longer earn xp in South Gustaberg. I've heard people reminisce fondly over zones they've outgrown but they never seem to quit over it. I've also heard many, many people over the years express unhappiness that all of the options available to them to progress through a certain point of character development were unappealling to them, but they typically just tough it out and get it done.

You still haven't addressed why that suddenly changes at endgame. Why all of a sudden this covetous joy at being rewarded with "endgame" shinies qualifies stunting progression for the sake of preserving isolated areas of the game for you enjoyment I don't know.

I understand your point or, more specifically, I understand what you're wanting to preserve. I just don't think it would be fair to hold back the people who enjoy new things and continued overall progression for the sake of people who happily plant themselves in a rut and never want to leave.
#230 Jun 28 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Default
Mikhalia wrote:
Quote:

Except that your attempt was flat out retarded. I expected more from you. Sorry, but...that was just bad. Really bad. You're being so disappointingly ego-centric in fighting tooth and nail for your point of view that you're just being stupid. FFS...get a grip, man.


Well I guess that answers my question then. You don't care about discussing or debating, you just want to get abrasive and argue with people.


No, no. I meant it. I tried very hard to the point of reading your post 4 times to find some semblance of logic or reason in your example and found absolutely none. Not a shred. It was bad. Really, really horrible logic. Your bias is clearly, clearly evident to the point it's clouding your judgement.

I'm starting to think RPGs are just not for you. You don't like progression. You like your shinies and your ruts. You like to grind and repeat and hold up your trophies and god forbid another opportunity should come along that would offer a bigger trophy, because all that could do is make your first trophy look small.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt in reading that post because up until that point, I felt you deserved it. You didn't deserve it in that one, and I told you so. So sulk for a while if you need to and then come back without the bias and post like you have something to offer.
#231 Jun 28 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Default
Mikhalia wrote:
Harri wrote:
OK, maybe this is just more rambling but another idea popped into my head. It's almost something that could be implemented into FFXI's old *** system even since they've added this Magian trials and the whole augment system. Make older full sets of gear tradable to an NPC for some sort of reusable item that can be used to augment your gear or even the character itself. Maybe make it a key item in the case of character.

We already know you can trade full sets of certain gear to a storage NPC and receive a key item slip. We'll what if the key item for particularly rare sets also gave your character stat boosts like merits do. Example:

Trading a Genbu's Kabuto, Kirin's Osode, Seiryu's Kote, Byakko's Haidate, and Suzaku's Sune-Ate gave you a key item "Kirin's Essence" and provides your character a significant stat boost on jobs that can equip that set and are 75+? Another option is maybe instead of a key item it's some sort of Jewel that can be attached to piece of armor as an augment or the actual slot on the character, but can be removed if needed and traded back to the NPC for the original gear. Kind of similar to WoW's socketed armor system except that placing the jewel isn't permanent. Possibly even make individual pieces tradable for a jewel that can only be socketed to a specific slot. (Genbu's Kabuto exchanges for a Genbu Head Jewel that can be socketed to your characters head piece or slot.


See, that all sounds reasonable to me.


No it doesn't. Not based on the logic and reasoning you've offered to this point. If endgame gear could be converted to things that augment your stats without actually having to take up an equipment slot to get the benefit, it would just further the potential to render content obsolete. It would be vertical progression. Vertical progression obsoletes old content. You don't want obsolete content. Cake. Table. Mouth?
#232 Jun 28 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
ascorbic wrote:
I've experienced development decisions from each that I found better and worse in comparison with all three, but I have never felt that the best option in MMO development was to try and copy other games in a futile attempt to recreate success. Such a mistake leaves you with the uninspired (and poorly performing) WoW clones of the past half decade. Those MMO's tried to emulate many of the elements of the market leader - including endgame progression - and failed to make a dent in the charts.


That's the same tired old argument people here have been using for over a year now to argue against concepts that are now a part of XIV. You'll need something better.


So vertical progression is now a part of XIV?

Oh. You have no idea. But your opinion is valid and I'll "need something better" than my opinion to post in this discussion? Good luck with that.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Horizontal progression wasn't what made XI "special" to subscribers.


And you know this... how? I'm seeing quite a few people on this thread who seemed to find the progression model of XI as one of their favorite differentiating factors between it and other MMOs they've tried. You're trying to simultaneously use WoW's playerbase as evidence that they prefer your version of progression, and shoot down the use of the XI playerbase in the same way? You can't have it both ways, and your (anti)fanboyism is shining brightly here.


The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Fact of the matter is, for most MMOs once you have an installed base of subscribers for over a year they tend to stick around. They tend to cling to the familiar long efter it has lost its luster.


The fact of the matter is, you can try and marginalize the success of XI in any way you wish. It's success is a fact. Your theories as to why are nothing more than unsupported opinion.


The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
XI plateaued very early in its NA lifespan. If the XI community is so happy with the game, why are the XI boards here still loaded with ******** and whining? Why is everything SE does still met with a wall of cynicism? It frequently seems that the only time XI players don't ***** about the game is when someone from outside the fold levels criticism at it.


I've been through enough MMOs to know that forums are a breeding ground for the whiny and discontented. Those that are happy generally aren't posting on forums... they're playing the game. To try and spin that as a FFXI anomaly is being intentionally dishonest, as best as I can tell. Because you have enough experience to know better, and there are a wealth of forums for us to peruse to illustrate the point.

You seem to believe that any opinion that supports elements of XI's MMO design are espoused by current players,"clinging to the familiar" and hopelessly addicted to the old game. It's a frequent ploy of yours to, again, marginalize opinions that you don't share. There are a number of people on this forum who support elements of XI's game design (horizontal progression, for example) and haven't played it in years. Why would your opinion be less tainted from your time in XI than theirs is, even in your mind? Surely you can do better than "they like (insert design element X) so they obviously are crazy!"

I've played 5 MMOs in the years since I left XI for good. I'm not clamoring for a return to XI either, that's why I'm here and not back playing XI. But I also wouldn't be here if XI hadn't given me a unique and enjoyable enough experience that I was hotly anticipating SE's newest release. I can look at XI with a critical eye without blindly labeling the entire design as bad.
#233 Jun 28 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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456 posts
Quote:
No it doesn't. Not based on the logic and reasoning you've offered to this point. If endgame gear could be converted to things that augment your stats without actually having to take up an equipment slot to get the benefit, it would just further the potential to render content obsolete. It would be vertical progression. Vertical progression obsoletes old content. You don't want obsolete content. Cake. Table. Mouth?


Stop just saying vertical progression, there are different forms and intensities of vertical progression (like I mentioned earlier). Like was stated earlier FFXI had vertical progression, it just was not extreme vertical progression and that was the reason why old content didn't become trash. Also the ability to play all jobs on 1 character helps that problem, even with no gear swapping. There is the vertical progression that most people here would not mind, then there is the extreme vertical progression that you support (that most people here wouldn't want).

I too agree that turning equipment in for augment boost isn't my cup of tea. I would much rather my earlier idea of small upgrades over a period of time (similar to how ffxi did it). Upgrades that are still clearly upgrades but only a small upgrade and not a huge % like WoW upgrades. Also not a whole set every update, you could break it down and target certain areas to upgrade.
#234 Jun 28 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
I wish there wasn't so much ego and emotion involved here, there's some interesting opinions on all sides. Its good to hear from different player styles because something like a MMO has to appeal to a wide audience to be successful.

I think everyone needs to step outside for an hour or two, remember that its nothing personal, its just responses to perceptions on the internet, and start again from there.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 2:24pm by digitalcraft
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#235 Jun 28 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Default
ascorbic wrote:
So vertical progression is now a part of XIV?


Up to and including everything we've been told and shown about the game thus far, yes it is.

Quote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Horizontal progression wasn't what made XI "special" to subscribers.


And you know this... how? I'm seeing quite a few people on this thread who seemed to find the progression model of XI as one of their favorite differentiating factors between it and other MMOs they've tried. You're trying to simultaneously use WoW's playerbase as evidence that they prefer your version of progression, and shoot down the use of the XI playerbase in the same way? You can't have it both ways, and your (anti)fanboyism is shining brightly here.


Really? Because when people talk about what they liked about XI, rarely do they mention much about endgame. They talk about the community (which really should be abbreviated to their circle of friends for the sake of accuracy) and they talk about their favorite zones and their favorite missions and all that. Don't see too many people heralding the joys of Dynamis...

Quote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Fact of the matter is, for most MMOs once you have an installed base of subscribers for over a year they tend to stick around. They tend to cling to the familiar long efter it has lost its luster.


The fact of the matter is, you can try and marginalize the success of XI in any way you wish. It's success is a fact. Your theories as to why are nothing more than unsupported opinion.


Judging from the amount of ******** in =10, there are an awful lot of people who sure as **** aren't playing it because they just absolutely love it...

Quote:
I've been through enough MMOs to know that forums are a breeding ground for the whiny and discontented. Those that are happy generally aren't posting on forums... they're playing the game. To try and spin that as a FFXI anomaly is being intentionally dishonest, as best as I can tell. Because you have enough experience to know better, and there are a wealth of forums for us to peruse to illustrate the point.


Take a spin by the WoW boards here once in a while. The majority of ******** on the WoW boards is about other players, not the game itself.

Quote:
You seem to believe that any opinion that supports elements of XI's MMO design are espoused by current players,"clinging to the familiar" and hopelessly addicted to the old game.


Only when the concepts they're clinging to have already been demonstrated to be absent from XIV yet they still continue to argue them.

Quote:
I've played 5 MMOs in the years since I left XI for good. I'm not clamoring for a return to XI either, that's why I'm here and not back playing XI. But I also wouldn't be here if XI hadn't given me a unique and enjoyable enough experience that I was hotly anticipating SE's newest release. I can look at XI with a critical eye without blindly labeling the entire design as bad.


I don't label all of it bad. Just the more glaring deficiencies. (I have in the past labeled the entire game as bad, usually to rile up the fanbois screaming up and down that action bars are stupid and levequest driven gameplay is stupid and viable solo play is stupid and combat systems faster than XI are stupid and...(see what I'm getting at?), but I've been careful of late to prevent from making such over arching generalizations whenever possible). Typically I prefer to refer to it as dated. Sort of like windshields. The first ever windshields on cars liked to shatter and many, many people were injured as a result. Then they came out with this new fangled lamination process. All the benefits...few of the consequences. Modernization and updating of things is just the way things work. I don't condemn people who like classic musclecars, but I'd have something to say if they decided to pipe up and make a drive for a return to inefficient engines and leaded fuel.
#236 Jun 28 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Default
HocusP wrote:
Quote:
No it doesn't. Not based on the logic and reasoning you've offered to this point. If endgame gear could be converted to things that augment your stats without actually having to take up an equipment slot to get the benefit, it would just further the potential to render content obsolete. It would be vertical progression. Vertical progression obsoletes old content. You don't want obsolete content. Cake. Table. Mouth?


Stop just saying vertical progression, there are different forms and intensities of vertical progression (like I mentioned earlier). Like was stated earlier FFXI had vertical progression, it just was not extreme vertical progression and that was the reason why old content didn't become trash. Also the ability to play all jobs on 1 character helps that problem, even with no gear swapping. There is the vertical progression that most people here would not mind, then there is the extreme vertical progression that you support (that most people here wouldn't want).

I too agree that turning equipment in for augment boost isn't my cup of tea. I would much rather my earlier idea of small upgrades over a period of time (similar to how ffxi did it). Upgrades that are still clearly upgrades but only a small upgrade and not a huge % like WoW upgrades. Also not a whole set every update, you could break it down and target certain areas to upgrade.


It's vertical or it's not, and it would appear that people like to get mired in grey areas so I'm trying to keep it simple. I understand your point, but the devil is in the details. And until people can get a firm take on those details without squirming and trying to negotiate and argue one thing and then turn around and undermine themselves (before they go back to arguing the first thing), less is more. Simple is good. So if it's okay with you, I'm going to continue to keep it simple.

Vertical is vertical.
#237 Jun 28 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
So let's sum up then.

I've invalidated your "sample size of 11 million people" by explaining why it proves nothing, and awaited your statistical data indicating EXACTLY how many people prefer which system. You haven't provided any because it doesn't exist.

Here's my counterpoint - Your posts seem to be defaulted and sub-defaulted, and it's not me doing it. Apparently your solution may not be the most popular one after all. Small sample size that doesn't really prove much, but have you even considered for a moment that your solution that "the majority of people like" might not actually be the solution that the majority of FFXIV players will like? I doubt you have.

I've invalidated your "SE says so" argument by proving that you're drawing these wild conclusions by connecting logical points in your head and provided you with an equally logical counterpoint. Unable to debate or disprove it, you dismiss it outright, because calling it rubbish that isn't worth considering is easier than dissecting it when you know that my diatribe was just as equally valid and equally crap as yours was. I never asked you to pick it apart because I knew it was flawed. Yet your response was to call the logic, the same logic you have been using, flawed. So not only have -I- proven that SE didn't say any of the words you're putting in their mouth, but I've gotten you to admit your own logic is a pile of crap, even if you didn't realize what you were saying when you said it.

I have to admit that I can understand that you'd probably get a little frustrated when I have logically disproved your main two "facts", since you can't counter any examples without resorting to them, and I've explained why both of them are flawed reasoning.

What I can't understand is why you need to resort to being insulting, abrasive, and antagonistic to everyone else, who have tried at varying degrees of civility, to explain why everyone else is wrong and you are right.

Like I said, you've long since stopped debating or discussing anything with anyone. Having invalidated the "SE said so" and the "30 Helens Agree" arguments you've been rehashing, you really don't have much else to fall back on that is convincing anyone.

If you want to keep on thinking you're right, you're certainly entitled to do so, but even I would think you've realized by now that no one in the thread who disagrees with you is going to be convinced of what you have to say. Why do you feel that being rude and obnoxious will be even remotely feasible for getting across a point that only one or two others in this thread actually agree with you on?

You're not going to convince anyone of what you think, and we're not going to convince you of what you think. Why can't you just accept that most people disagree with you instead of crapping up the thread by flaming everyone you disagree with?

I don't know why I'm wasting my time even ATTEMPTING to discuss anything rationally when you seem to have abandoned rational thought in favor of unneeded aggression in the last few pages, but I guess I'm going to give it another shot here:

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
You still haven't addressed why that suddenly changes at endgame. Why all of a sudden this covetous joy at being rewarded with "endgame" shinies qualifies stunting progression for the sake of preserving isolated areas of the game for you enjoyment I don't know.


Just a thought: It's called "endgame", not "midgame" or "maingame". If you want to say that leveling your character is only part of the game, and the "real" game is a hamster wheel of gear replacement and content obsoletion, then it's not "endgame". The situation changes because when you're leveling, it's assumed that there will be more levels to go. When the leveling STOPS, then it becomes tome to shift your focus from your leveling to your gear. You don't lose abilities as you level;It's not like a Warrior turns 6 and Provoke is no longer a beneficial ability, or that when a Dragoon learns Super Jump, the potency of Jump and High Jump are suddenly moot. When you level, your spells and abilities carry over. It's not like the new Jump ability added last week was coupled with "Also, all other jumps will now deal 50% damage". You acquire abilities and spells over time, and you KEEP them. Once you hit ENDGAME, you are done leveling and getting your new abilities, you now focus on getting gear. Once you get gear, you KEEP it. Just as Meditate and Berserk and Utsusemi: Ichi and Paralyna continue to be useful much later after you get them while leveling, gear should continue to remain useful while doing endgame.

Granted, I don't expect a reasonable response from this; I just expect some rant about how I'm a detestable puddle of vomit resting atop a pool of scum for daring to disagree with you. But at least -one- of us is -attempting- to reply to the other person's actual points.

EDIT, because you're doing it again:

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
ascorbic wrote:
So vertical progression is now a part of XIV?


Up to and including everything we've been told and shown about the game thus far, yes it is.


The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
You seem to believe that any opinion that supports elements of XI's MMO design are espoused by current players,"clinging to the familiar" and hopelessly addicted to the old game.


Only when the concepts they're clinging to have already been demonstrated to be absent from XIV yet they still continue to argue them.


Proof. Now. I want a link to definitive proof that shows that FFXIV's endgame will, in fact, be a "vertical progression scheme" as you define it.

It doesn't exist, because we haven't been told, shown, or demonstrated ANYTHING that specifically says that the endgame plans will specifically be that type of progression setting. They haven't told us, shown us, or demonstrated to us ANYTHING about the endgame content of the game.

I've been trying not to get ***** with you, but when I explain why something is crap and you ignore it and continue to claim BS as truth or fact, saying that "we were told" or "we were shown" things that no one has ever told or demonstrated... I'm calling you out on your BS. Not only are you being rude, but you're lying. Stop it.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 5:40pm by Mikhalia
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#238 Jun 28 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
Mikhalia wrote:
So let's sum up then.

I've invalidated your "sample size of 11 million people" by explaining why it proves nothing, and awaited your statistical data indicating EXACTLY how many people prefer which system. You haven't provided any because it doesn't exist.


You haven't invalidated it. You refuted it, but "NO IT ISN'T!!!" (or roughly the equivalent) doesn't invalidate anything.

Quote:
Here's my counterpoint - Your posts seem to be defaulted and sub-defaulted, and it's not me doing it. Apparently your solution may not be the most popular one after all. Small sample size that doesn't really prove much, but have you even considered for a moment that your solution that "the majority of people like" might not actually be the solution that the majority of FFXIV players will like? I doubt you have.


It only takes three people rating me down to sub-default one of my posts and given the number of people I've ****** off here over the last year and the karma camping that followed, I don't particularly give a sh*t where my posts end up now. Childish karma campers are childish.

Quote:
I've invalidated your "SE says so" argument by proving that you're drawing these wild conclusions by connecting logical points in your head and provided you with an equally logical counterpoint.


It wasn't logical. GROWTH is NOT moving sideways. PROGRESSION is NOT moving sideways. PROGRESSION is MOVING FORWARD. FFS man.

Quote:
I have to admit that I can understand that you'd probably get a little frustrated when I have logically disproved your main two "facts", since you can't counter any examples without resorting to them, and I've explained why both of them are flawed reasoning.


Except that you haven't. All you've done is barfed your biased opinion all over the place. And instead of addressing MY points, you're just sitting there like a dunce, "hur hur I proved ya wrong".

Quote:
What I can't understand is why you need to resort to being insulting, abrasive, and antagonistic to everyone else, who have tried at varying degrees of civility, to explain why everyone else is wrong and you are right.


I've tried. I tried with you until you got all stupid. I tried with Kachi until he got all prick. It does no good. You're being a hypocrite, doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing, and then trying to make me wrong for doing it.

Quote:
Like I said, you've long since stopped debating or discussing anything with anyone. Having invalidated the "SE said so" and the "30 Helens Agree" arguments you've been rehashing, you really don't have much else to fall back on that is convincing anyone.


I've been explaining and explaining and all you have to do is read back through the @#%^ing thread and you'll see as much. Enough already with the childish QQ. You're better than that, but right now all you're doing is being a moron. Don't talk down to me for doing the same thing you're doing.

And the rest of your post is just whining. QQ moar, Mikhalia.

Edit: Because you fell directly into my trap. Wad Admiral Akbar on a coffee break or something? You've been around for a while. You've probably read my posts where I point out how things degenerate into argument because people read what I say, pass it through their subjective filter and then go all off on a hissy demanding I defend a point I never made, right? And you've seen me in this thread (possibly even to you) ask people to stop doing that and to just take what I'm saying at face value and not complicate it and make a mess, right?

And so now, in your mind, you've got me pinned with your edit to your last post. Demanding proof, indeed. Demanding me to prove a point...that I didn't make.

Take a look:

Mikhalia wrote:
Quote:
ascorbic wrote:
So vertical progression is now a part of XIV?


Up to and including everything we've been told and shown about the game thus far, yes it is.


Proof. Now. I want a link to definitive proof that shows that FFXIV's endgame will, in fact, be a "vertical progression scheme" as you define it.


See if you can pick out the one significant word that you added to your response that neither ascorbic nor myself used. In the absence of that word...that word that you added...my statement is absolutely correct. But you're running on a bias right now. You're not thinking clearly. You're reading what you want to read and getting all riled up over your subjective interpretation.

So let's see if you can spot the word.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 2:50pm by Aurelius

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 2:52pm by Aurelius
#239 Jun 28 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I wish there wasn't so much ego and emotion involved here, there's some interesting opinions on all sides. Its good to hear from different player styles because something like a MMO has to appeal to a wide audience to be successful.

I think everyone needs to step outside for an hour or two, remember that its nothing personal, its just responses to perceptions on the internet, and start again from there.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 2:24pm by digitalcraft


That would be nice, wouldn't it?

I've been playing other stuff and alt-tabbing in here periodically. I'm crossing my fingers that the thread gets back to civility in the next page or two. Not holding my breath, but I can hope, eh?

I would actually like to talk about other things that -aren't- endgame related instead of wasting time and effort arguing one single solitary point of speculation at length.
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#240 Jun 28 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
So let's sum up then.

I've invalidated your "sample size of 11 million people" by explaining why it proves nothing, and awaited your statistical data indicating EXACTLY how many people prefer which system. You haven't provided any because it doesn't exist.


You haven't invalidated it. You refuted it, but "NO IT ISN'T!!!" (or roughly the equivalent) doesn't invalidate anything.


If I haven't invalidated it, then provide data indicating how many of WoW's players specifically play the game because they specifically like the endgame model.

I said you were wrong and explained why. If you're right, then prove me wrong. Otherwise, I have invalidated that point.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
I've invalidated your "SE says so" argument by proving that you're drawing these wild conclusions by connecting logical points in your head and provided you with an equally logical counterpoint.


It wasn't logical. GROWTH is NOT moving sideways. PROGRESSION is NOT moving sideways. PROGRESSION is MOVING FORWARD. FFS man.


What you call moving sideways, I call more options. What you call "vertical progression", I call "rendering content obsolete". More options is growth. Rendering content obsolete is not growth. As far as I'm concerned, more options is moving forward.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
I have to admit that I can understand that you'd probably get a little frustrated when I have logically disproved your main two "facts", since you can't counter any examples without resorting to them, and I've explained why both of them are flawed reasoning.


Except that you haven't. All you've done is barfed your biased opinion all over the place. And instead of addressing MY points, you're just sitting there like a dunce, "hur hur I proved ya wrong".


I did address a point later in this post. I'm glad to see you're actually addressing points again though. Oops, scratch that. I had to come back here when I noticed that you totally disregarded the point I made about level vs endgame progression and dismissed it as "whining".

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
What I can't understand is why you need to resort to being insulting, abrasive, and antagonistic to everyone else, who have tried at varying degrees of civility, to explain why everyone else is wrong and you are right.


I've tried. I tried with you until you got all stupid. I tried with Kachi until he got all prick. It does no good. You're being a hypocrite, doing exactly what you're accusing me of doing, and then trying to make me wrong for doing it.


Actually, you ignored me until I asked if I had to get antagonistic to stop being ignored. Then you stopped ignoring me. I'm just giving you what you wanted; someone to argue with.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
Like I said, you've long since stopped debating or discussing anything with anyone. Having invalidated the "SE said so" and the "30 Helens Agree" arguments you've been rehashing, you really don't have much else to fall back on that is convincing anyone.


I've been explaining and explaining and all you have to do is read back through the @#%^ing thread and you'll see as much. Enough already with the childish QQ. You're better than that, but right now all you're doing is being a moron. Don't talk down to me for doing the same thing you're doing.

And the rest of your post is just whining. QQ moar, Mikhalia.


You've explained at first, and then you stopped explaining and started arguing. Like I said, if you can't get through to someone, have you ever considered giving up? Possibly saying "Hey, let's agree to disagree" and moving on? Or do you just HAVE to turn it into a childish little tantrum when you can't convince someone to agree with you? I only started doing what you were doing because it seems like you weren't responding to anything I said until I did. If you're going to act like a child and I'm going to act like an adult and I get ignored, then maybe I -have- to act like a child to attempt to get through to you. That's the impression you gave me. If anything, I'm surprised that you're getting so indignant that I gave you what you wanted (an argument instead of a discussion).

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 5:58pm by Mikhalia
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#241 Jun 28 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Edit: Because you fell directly into my trap. Wad Admiral Akbar on a coffee break or something? You've been around for a while. You've probably read my posts where I point out how things degenerate into argument because people read what I say, pass it through their subjective filter and then go all off on a hissy demanding I defend a point I never made, right? And you've seen me in this thread (possibly even to you) ask people to stop doing that and to just take what I'm saying at face value and not complicate it and make a mess, right?

And so now, in your mind, you've got me pinned with your edit to your last post. Demanding proof, indeed. Demanding me to prove a point...that I didn't make.

Take a look:

Mikhalia wrote:
Quote:
ascorbic wrote:
So vertical progression is now a part of XIV?


Up to and including everything we've been told and shown about the game thus far, yes it is.


Proof. Now. I want a link to definitive proof that shows that FFXIV's endgame will, in fact, be a "vertical progression scheme" as you define it.


See if you can pick out the one significant word that you added to your response that neither ascorbic nor myself used. In the absence of that word...that word that you added...my statement is absolutely correct. But you're running on a bias right now. You're not thinking clearly. You're reading what you want to read and getting all riled up over your subjective interpretation.

So let's see if you can spot the word.


Endgame? Fair enough. I concede that you didn't put endgame in your initial post. Since all we have been talking about up till this point was endgame, I assumed you were still talking about the same thing, not that you had changed topic suddenly.
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#242 Jun 28 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Default
Mikhalia wrote:
If I haven't invalidated it, then provide data indicating how many of WoW's players specifically play the game because they specifically like the endgame model.


Tell me why I should try proving a point that I didn't make? I brought up the statistical relevance of a sample size of 11 million people in a genre comprised of maybe 30-40 million people worldwide. That's it. Anything you've hacked/botched onto that point is not my problem. If the vertical progression model wasn't a successful model, Blizzard wouldn't have the retention factor it has now. At no point did I EVER claaim that the vertical progression model was speciifcally the reason that they played, but if you put two and two together, the "logic" you're boasting says that vertical progression is at the heart of the RPG genre. I can't think of a single MMO that isn't based around vertical progression to significant extent, and only a few that shift to the horizontal at some point for any significant length of time.

Quote:
Quote:
It wasn't logical. GROWTH is NOT moving sideways. PROGRESSION is NOT moving sideways. PROGRESSION is MOVING FORWARD. FFS man.


What you call moving sideways, I call more options. What you call "vertical progression", I call "rendering content obsolete". More options is growth. Rendering content obsolete is not growth. As far as I'm concerned, more options is moving forward.


What you call potatoes, I call kumquats. What you call blue, I call house.

Quote:
I did address a point later in this post. I'm glad to see you're actually addressing points again though. Oops, scratch that. I had to come back here when I noticed that you totally disregarded the point I made about level vs endgame progression and dismissed it as "whining".


Ya, because I stopped reading when you laced the middle of your post with QQ. Get to the point without all the whining in the middle.

Quote:
You've explained at first, and then you stopped explaining and started arguing. Like I said, if you can't get through to someone, have you ever considered giving up? Possibly saying "Hey, let's agree to disagree" and moving on?


Why don't you try that, then? Instead of preaching it, live it. And if you can't, drop it.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 3:08pm by Aurelius
#243 Jun 28 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
EDIT: Removed everything before this point

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
What you call moving sideways, I call more options. What you call "vertical progression", I call "rendering content obsolete". More options is growth. Rendering content obsolete is not growth. As far as I'm concerned, more options is moving forward.


What you call potatoes, I call kumquats. What you call blue, I call house.


So we agree that we disagree on our perspective. Okay, it's a start.

The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Quote:
You've explained at first, and then you stopped explaining and started arguing. Like I said, if you can't get through to someone, have you ever considered giving up? Possibly saying "Hey, let's agree to disagree" and moving on?


Why don't you try that, then? Instead of preaching it, live it. And if you can't, drop it.


Is that really what this is going to turn into now? Me and you going back and forth with "You drop it!" "No, you drop it!"

Let me try to save both of us a ton of time and see if we can either let this thread die or let it move on to something productive, since it's basically just a train wreck now.

We both have our opinions on our preferred method of what we consider to be "game progression". We differ on our opinion of the "better" method and we can both safely say that:

A) We think the other person is dead wrong.
B) We don't like the other person's idea.
C) Neither of us is likely ever going to convince the other person to agree.

So can we both be adults here, agree to disagree, shake hands, and save each other the effort of playing the quote block game for several more pages when we know neither of us is going to accomplish anything because both of us think the other is being unreasonable and obstinate? I'm growing tired of it and I imagine you are as well.

If you wanna keep arguing with others, then I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I'd at least like to stop arguing with you and call it an insurmountable impasse, because I think that's the best you and I are going to hope to get out of it.

Agreed?

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 6:17pm by Mikhalia
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#244 Jun 28 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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So I am not going to argue or anything, mainly due to the fact that I don't have a strong opinion. The thing I would like to add though are some various definitions of Growth, because I keep seeing this particular word being a key aspect in most of differing arguments.

In the effort to make the debate a tad more efficient here are a number definitions for Growth from the definition website set up by Princeton University.

1. a progression from simpler to more complex forms
2. increase: a process of becoming larger or longer or more numerous or more important
3. emergence: the gradual beginning or coming forth

If I had to pick a personal preference I would like something similar to WoW though rather than stuff becoming obsolete in 4-5 months I would rather it be around 2 year intervals. I also am fond of having tons of things to do to earn the high end stuff at the moment, even if I can't do half of it by the time the next jump in endgame content comes out just having all the choices makes me happy.
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#245 Jun 28 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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Mimedestroyer wrote:
So I am not going to argue or anything, mainly due to the fact that I don't have a strong opinion. The thing I would like to add though are some various definitions of Growth, because I keep seeing this particular word being a key aspect in most of differing arguments.

In the effort to make the debate a tad more efficient here are a number definitions for Growth from the definition website set up by Princeton University.

1. a progression from simpler to more complex forms
2. increase: a process of becoming larger or longer or more numerous or more important
3. emergence: the gradual beginning or coming forth

If I had to pick a personal preference I would like something similar to WoW though rather than stuff becoming obsolete in 4-5 months I would rather it be around 2 year intervals. I also am fond of having tons of things to do to earn the high end stuff at the moment, even if I can't do half of it by the time the next jump in endgame content comes out just having all the choices makes me happy.


I still don't like obsoletion, but if I had to compromise, I feel that two years is fair. A lot better than twice a year, at any rate. Again, I'm still not a fan of the system but I suppose an expiration date of two years on content and gear seems like a compromise I could live with if I had to.
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#246 Jun 28 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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I feel like this thread has really run its course on this topic, and from this point on it should be about the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFSvYuqiPoI&feature=related

Macho Man Randy Savage: Greatest musical artist of our generation, or greatest musical artist of all time?
#247 Jun 28 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
See how quickly and easily I can drag you down to my level? How does it feel to be my puppet? I wonder if you'll think twice the next time you're about to mount up on the ol' high horse.


If it makes you feel better to think that you're actually able to coerce me into being a **** to you, go ahead. I'm a **** to people who are abundantly a **** first themselves. That's not ******* reverse psychology or anything-- that's something I know and embrace about myself.

That's analogous to saying that incarcerating a kidnapper is just going down to his level.

As for horizontal PROGRESSION, let me explain this very simply. You point out that to add something and take something else away isn't advancement. I'm going to explain how it is.

If I can have +10 Wind OR +10 Ice, but not both at the same time, that is adding while taking away. Both are +10-- there is absolutely nothing vertical there when I switch between them. However, +10 Ice is a weakness in certain situations and a strength in others, so sometimes I want Wind instead. No progress there yet, either. The progress comes in when I obtain the OPTION to get +10 Fire, thus making my character more versatile. Even class changes in XI are a form of horizontal progression. Getting to 75 TWICE is not vertical progression-- it's horizontal. You're still progressing, but outwardly rather than upwards.

Now maybe you understand this and have qualified it or not, I don't know. You could learn to be more succinct and less mouthy so I wouldn't have to tl;dr you quite so much.
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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#248 Jun 28 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Default
Kachi wrote:
If I can have +10 Wind OR +10 Ice, but not both at the same time, that is adding while taking away. Both are +10-- there is absolutely nothing vertical there when I switch between them. However, +10 Ice is a weakness in certain situations and a strength in others, so sometimes I want Wind instead. No progress there yet, either. The progress comes in when I obtain the OPTION to get +10 Fire, thus making my character more versatile. Even class changes in XI are a form of horizontal progression. Getting to 75 TWICE is not vertical progression-- it's horizontal. You're still progressing, but outwardly rather than upwards.

Now maybe you understand this and have qualified it or not, I don't know. You could learn to be more succinct and less mouthy so I wouldn't have to tl;dr you quite so much.


When you stop punctuating your posts with personal shots, I'll respond to them again.
#249 Jun 28 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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296 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
ascorbic wrote:
So vertical progression is now a part of XIV?


Up to and including everything we've been told and shown about the game thus far, yes it is.



Bah. You know I was referring to endgame. And we have no indication the nature or flavor it will be. Sidestepping my rhetorical questions... the nerve... rackin' mumble frackin' why I oughtta...


The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Really? Because when people talk about what they liked about XI, rarely do they mention much about endgame. They talk about the community (which really should be abbreviated to their circle of friends for the sake of accuracy) and they talk about their favorite zones and their favorite missions and all that. Don't see too many people heralding the joys of Dynamis...


I dunno... right here in our little corner of the internet we've gotten quite a few people speaking favorably on the topic (of endgame progression in general). Beyond that, it's the opinion of the people I've come to know playing MMOs versus your circle. And there's probably not much we can agree on, because we've naturally gravitated towards people who reflect our own views.

I've run into enough people in games, forums, and even live to know there are a sizable portion of the MMO community that lamented the wasted lands around WoW that used to be endgames for a period of time. They feel a lack of connection to any "accomplishment" knowing that a clock is ticking to wipe it all away. Work for two years to get fantastic gear and then vendor it all for 30 gold come expansion just holds no appeal to some. The closer you get to a level increase, the fewer Guilds you'll even see doing the content anymore. The last few months before a level cap raise becomes time to hoard gold or level alts more than participate in endgame at all, because you have harder and harder times convincing members to allocate dozens of man hours for vendor trash. The RL coworkers that convinced me to give WoW a serious shot love the game, but they hate the level cap increases. Heck, the upcoming Cataclysm expansion is widely referred to as Blizzard's first move towards Horizontal progression, and the throngs seems pretty excited. AoC's new expansion is being referred to as horizontal in nature, though to be honest I have no idea about AoC or the veracity of those claims. Maybe horizontal isn't the outdated idea you paint it to be?

In fact, I've never heard anyone so voraciously defend vertical progresion, save for the ability it gives for new players to quickly get on equal footing around expansions. Vertical progression does that well, as it erases any reward the previous endgame has bestowed on the players. Which, I suppose, is a way to encourage newcomers to jump in at certain times. But the fact that it's convenient for the uninitiated doesn't necessarily mean it's what's best for the players actually in endgame.

It's all moot anyhow. We won't know the answer to how XIV will approach this aspect for quite some time...likely not until the first major expansion is announced. So, it's not really a matter that I'll think about when starting the game, or for quite some time after (provided the game and me get into a groove to begin with).



Edited, Jun 28th 2010 9:00pm by ascorbic
#250 Jun 28 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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5,684 posts
this argument has become as useless and asinine as they come.

And I've read gbaji posts in the asylum.
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#251 Jun 28 2010 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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296 posts
KarlHungis wrote:
I feel like this thread has really run its course on this topic, and from this point on it should be about the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFSvYuqiPoI&feature=related

Macho Man Randy Savage: Greatest musical artist of our generation, or greatest musical artist of all time?


...And thus is the story of how I found my new favorite annoying ringtone. My wife will hate you for years.
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