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SE's lessons learned from FFXIFollow

#252 Jun 28 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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ascorbic wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
I feel like this thread has really run its course on this topic, and from this point on it should be about the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFSvYuqiPoI&feature=related

Macho Man Randy Savage: Greatest musical artist of our generation, or greatest musical artist of all time?


...And thus is the story of how I found my new favorite annoying ringtone. My wife will hate you for years.


I'm... I'm not sure what to say to this. I either think it's dumb as **** or it's incredibly awesome. I cannot decide which.

Actually, I do know what to say. Macho Man get.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 9:57pm by Mikhalia
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#253 Jun 28 2010 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:
ascorbic wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
I feel like this thread has really run its course on this topic, and from this point on it should be about the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFSvYuqiPoI&feature=related

Macho Man Randy Savage: Greatest musical artist of our generation, or greatest musical artist of all time?


...And thus is the story of how I found my new favorite annoying ringtone. My wife will hate you for years.


I'm... I'm not sure what to say to this. I either think it's dumb as **** or it's incredibly awesome. I cannot decide which.

Actually, I do know what to say. Macho Man get.

Edited, Jun 28th 2010 9:57pm by Mikhalia


Macho man says DIG IT DIG IT! The interlude at around 1:40 is absolutely priceless.

When I was a manager at Borders, we'd let our stockers choose the music to play during open. I don't know where they got it, but one of the kids there had an album of WWF super stars singing and rapping, which he would occasionally bring in to torment us. There were songs for Randy Savage, Tataunka, Sean Michaels, Mister Perfect, Bret Hart, and a few others, and for the most part they were all terrible in an awesome way. But the Randy Savage song is by far the best. I had a copy of it burned to CD, but that got lost in a move a few years back. I wish I could find it online because it's truly the greatest/most terrible album since... well, since I started listening to music.

Edit:

I found most of the rest on Youtube:
Bret Hart:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IscGZkMnGNU&feature=related
"Hacksaw" Jim Duggan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ax7c3BEeIw&feature=related
The Nasty Boys:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ax7c3BEeIw&feature=related
The Undertaker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJvrdeZ0Hog&feature=related

By the way, the lead producer of this album is Simon Cowell. Yes, THE Simon Cowell.

Unfortunately the Mister Perfect song didn't make it onto Youtube. Angels cry.



Edited, Jun 28th 2010 11:30pm by KarlHungis
#254 Jun 28 2010 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
Harri wrote:
OK, maybe this is just more rambling but another idea popped into my head. It's almost something that could be implemented into FFXI's old *** system even since they've added this Magian trials and the whole augment system. Make older full sets of gear tradable to an NPC for some sort of reusable item that can be used to augment your gear or even the character itself. Maybe make it a key item in the case of character.

We already know you can trade full sets of certain gear to a storage NPC and receive a key item slip. We'll what if the key item for particularly rare sets also gave your character stat boosts like merits do. Example:

Trading a Genbu's Kabuto, Kirin's Osode, Seiryu's Kote, Byakko's Haidate, and Suzaku's Sune-Ate gave you a key item "Kirin's Essence" and provides your character a significant stat boost on jobs that can equip that set and are 75+? Another option is maybe instead of a key item it's some sort of Jewel that can be attached to piece of armor as an augment or the actual slot on the character, but can be removed if needed and traded back to the NPC for the original gear. Kind of similar to WoW's socketed armor system except that placing the jewel isn't permanent. Possibly even make individual pieces tradable for a jewel that can only be socketed to a specific slot. (Genbu's Kabuto exchanges for a Genbu Head Jewel that can be socketed to your characters head piece or slot.


See, that all sounds reasonable to me.


No it doesn't. Not based on the logic and reasoning you've offered to this point. If endgame gear could be converted to things that augment your stats without actually having to take up an equipment slot to get the benefit, it would just further the potential to render content obsolete. It would be vertical progression. Vertical progression obsoletes old content. You don't want obsolete content. Cake. Table. Mouth?
The example I gave only renders older content obsolete to those who have completed it, which is the way it should be. It's still worthwhile doing for players who haven't accomplished those things regardless if they enter the game on release day or 3 years down the road after 2 expansions. There's a reason to go back and get those items if you don't have them. The way WoW is set up now, a lot of the old stuff in the game has almost no point in doing even for new players who have never even done it in the first place. I know when I played, everyone in my guild just told me to grind as fast as you can to outlands and skip old world stuff because it was pointless. Why waste hours doing old raids and dungeons trying get the previous elite gear if it was going to be replaced by auction house equipment in another level?
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#255 Jun 28 2010 at 8:45 PM Rating: Good
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296 posts
KarlHungis wrote:


Macho man says DIG IT DIG IT! The interlude at around 1:40 is absolutely priceless.

When I was a manager at Borders, we'd let our stockers choose the music to play during open. I don't know where they got it, but one of the kids there had an album of WWF super stars singing and rapping, which he would occasionally bring in to torment us. There were songs for Randy Savage, Tataunka, Sean Michaels, Mister Perfect, Bret Hart, and a few others, and for the most part they were all terrible in an awesome way. But the Randy Savage song is by far the best. I had a copy of it burned to CD, but that got lost in a move a few years back. I wish I could find it online because it's truly the greatest/most terrible album since... well, since I started listening to music.


Amazon.com has a few retailers selling the album for as low as $2 (with another $3 for s/h). For five dollars I feel like I'm losing money not buying. I searched iTunes and Amazon for MP3s, but no joy...

http://www.amazon.com/Wrestlemania-Album-Various-Artists/dp/B00000I8JN
#256 Jun 28 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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1,218 posts
ascorbic wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:


Macho man says DIG IT DIG IT! The interlude at around 1:40 is absolutely priceless.

When I was a manager at Borders, we'd let our stockers choose the music to play during open. I don't know where they got it, but one of the kids there had an album of WWF super stars singing and rapping, which he would occasionally bring in to torment us. There were songs for Randy Savage, Tataunka, Sean Michaels, Mister Perfect, Bret Hart, and a few others, and for the most part they were all terrible in an awesome way. But the Randy Savage song is by far the best. I had a copy of it burned to CD, but that got lost in a move a few years back. I wish I could find it online because it's truly the greatest/most terrible album since... well, since I started listening to music.


Amazon.com has a few retailers selling the album for as low as $2 (with another $3 for s/h). For five dollars I feel like I'm losing money not buying. I searched iTunes and Amazon for MP3s, but no joy...

http://www.amazon.com/Wrestlemania-Album-Various-Artists/dp/B00000I8JN


I went ahead and picked it up for two bucks new, and grabbed Knights of the Old Republic 2 and Mass Effect 2 while I was there. Gotta have some thing to do while I wait for FFXIV. :D
#257 Jun 28 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
When you stop punctuating your posts with personal shots, I'll respond to them again.


Pfft, if people applied that conditional to you, you'd just be ignored the whole time. I'm saying you're a hypocrite. But whatever, not like it's any kind of privilege to get a response from you.

Quote:
this argument has become as useless and asinine as they come.

And I've read gbaji posts in the asylum.


Gbaji is more obtuse, but less overtly pompous. It's kind of a tough call.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#258 Jun 28 2010 at 9:08 PM Rating: Good
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296 posts
KarlHungis wrote:
I went ahead and picked it up for two bucks new, and grabbed Knights of the Old Republic 2 and Mass Effect 2 while I was there. Gotta have some thing to do while I wait for FFXIV. :D


I had a feeling when I saw my price for a new copy went from 2.00 to 3.99 that it HAD to be you hehehe. Bah, it's what I get for putting the kid to bed first :P And it's mine now!

We're bringing it back!
#259 Jun 28 2010 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
KarlHungis wrote:
ascorbic wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:


Macho man says DIG IT DIG IT! The interlude at around 1:40 is absolutely priceless.

When I was a manager at Borders, we'd let our stockers choose the music to play during open. I don't know where they got it, but one of the kids there had an album of WWF super stars singing and rapping, which he would occasionally bring in to torment us. There were songs for Randy Savage, Tataunka, Sean Michaels, Mister Perfect, Bret Hart, and a few others, and for the most part they were all terrible in an awesome way. But the Randy Savage song is by far the best. I had a copy of it burned to CD, but that got lost in a move a few years back. I wish I could find it online because it's truly the greatest/most terrible album since... well, since I started listening to music.


Amazon.com has a few retailers selling the album for as low as $2 (with another $3 for s/h). For five dollars I feel like I'm losing money not buying. I searched iTunes and Amazon for MP3s, but no joy...

http://www.amazon.com/Wrestlemania-Album-Various-Artists/dp/B00000I8JN


I went ahead and picked it up for two bucks new, and grabbed Knights of the Old Republic 2 and Mass Effect 2 while I was there. Gotta have some thing to do while I wait for FFXIV. :D


I just recently bought Dragon Age Origins to take a break from DDO and Fallout 3. It's pretty fun; I highly reccommend it if you haven't played it yet. ME2 was pretty fun as well (more fun IMO if you've played the first though)
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#260 Jun 28 2010 at 9:48 PM Rating: Good
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1,218 posts
Mikhalia wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
ascorbic wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:


Macho man says DIG IT DIG IT! The interlude at around 1:40 is absolutely priceless.

When I was a manager at Borders, we'd let our stockers choose the music to play during open. I don't know where they got it, but one of the kids there had an album of WWF super stars singing and rapping, which he would occasionally bring in to torment us. There were songs for Randy Savage, Tataunka, Sean Michaels, Mister Perfect, Bret Hart, and a few others, and for the most part they were all terrible in an awesome way. But the Randy Savage song is by far the best. I had a copy of it burned to CD, but that got lost in a move a few years back. I wish I could find it online because it's truly the greatest/most terrible album since... well, since I started listening to music.


Amazon.com has a few retailers selling the album for as low as $2 (with another $3 for s/h). For five dollars I feel like I'm losing money not buying. I searched iTunes and Amazon for MP3s, but no joy...

http://www.amazon.com/Wrestlemania-Album-Various-Artists/dp/B00000I8JN


I went ahead and picked it up for two bucks new, and grabbed Knights of the Old Republic 2 and Mass Effect 2 while I was there. Gotta have some thing to do while I wait for FFXIV. :D


I just recently bought Dragon Age Origins to take a break from DDO and Fallout 3. It's pretty fun; I highly reccommend it if you haven't played it yet. ME2 was pretty fun as well (more fun IMO if you've played the first though)


I didn't care for Dragon Age very much. I can't put my finger on it really. It just seemed "off" to me. I've finished Fallout 3 with all of the DLC though. Point Lookout and Mothership Zeta were a little bit disapointing but The Pitt and Broken Steel are amazing, IMO.
#261 Jun 28 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
KarlHungis wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:
ascorbic wrote:
KarlHungis wrote:


Macho man says DIG IT DIG IT! The interlude at around 1:40 is absolutely priceless.

When I was a manager at Borders, we'd let our stockers choose the music to play during open. I don't know where they got it, but one of the kids there had an album of WWF super stars singing and rapping, which he would occasionally bring in to torment us. There were songs for Randy Savage, Tataunka, Sean Michaels, Mister Perfect, Bret Hart, and a few others, and for the most part they were all terrible in an awesome way. But the Randy Savage song is by far the best. I had a copy of it burned to CD, but that got lost in a move a few years back. I wish I could find it online because it's truly the greatest/most terrible album since... well, since I started listening to music.


Amazon.com has a few retailers selling the album for as low as $2 (with another $3 for s/h). For five dollars I feel like I'm losing money not buying. I searched iTunes and Amazon for MP3s, but no joy...

http://www.amazon.com/Wrestlemania-Album-Various-Artists/dp/B00000I8JN


I went ahead and picked it up for two bucks new, and grabbed Knights of the Old Republic 2 and Mass Effect 2 while I was there. Gotta have some thing to do while I wait for FFXIV. :D


I just recently bought Dragon Age Origins to take a break from DDO and Fallout 3. It's pretty fun; I highly reccommend it if you haven't played it yet. ME2 was pretty fun as well (more fun IMO if you've played the first though)


I didn't care for Dragon Age very much. I can't put my finger on it really. It just seemed "off" to me. I've finished Fallout 3 with all of the DLC though. Point Lookout and Mothership Zeta were a little bit disapointing but The Pitt and Broken Steel are amazing, IMO.


Point Lookout bored me, and was partially what prompted my break from the game. Haven't done Zeta or Anchorage yet. Finished Pitt.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#262 Jun 29 2010 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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Harri wrote:
Heck, just look at when BC was introduced. You had people with the best sets of armor/weapons you could possibly get, then an expansion comes out and the common green sh*t you get that is one level higher beats the crap out of stuff it may have taken someone months to get. Having mid to low-quality gear be better than elite stuff simply because it's a few levels higher ruins any sort of chance of making previous content worth doing again, ever, even for new players.


The "gear reset" with the release with BC was very much by design - it was basically Blizzard's admission that endgame in pre-BC WoW was too exclusive, and thus relatively few people had raid-level gear, with everyone else limited to blue-quality dungeon drops. (They were also admitting that pre-BC itemization was not great.)

So rather that have the leveling content in BC be either too easy for pre-BC raiders, or too hard for non-raiders, opted instead to make green Outland quest rewards stronger than any gear available in Azeroth and make the mob power curve steeper, so that for the most part it didn't matter going into BC whether or not you raided pre-BC.

The WotLK release had no such gear reset, because BC didn't have anywhere near as wide a gap between what raider and non-raiders could get, so a lot of BC-era epics were still viable for leveling in Wrath, in some cases all the way up to 80; for the same reason, Cataclysm isn't likely to have a severe gear reset either.

Derekloffin wrote:
If you look over at WoW as of Wrath, every time a new progression level comes out, the community moves to that, and never looks back.


I have to say, that's not been my experience with most of WotLK. When Ulduar was out, my guild would still run Naxx fairly often, and when ToC came out, we still also did Ulduar fairly often (and even Naxx on occasion). It's really only since ICC opened up that we've focused pretty much exclusively on the top raid tier. (Although on my server ToC PUGs are also pretty common, because a lot of people want gear, and a lot of those people are bad and can't down very many ICC bosses.)

A lot of this is because gear has grown to an extent that Blizzard had not anticipated when they were developing Wrath, largely because of the idea of hard modes (which were added in Ulduar), which, when combined with wanting to maintain a gear distinction between 10- and 25-man, basically forced them to have more levels of gear than they had planned on.

This is likely to be much less of an issue in Cata, considering that they're going in knowing they will have hard modes and that their making 10- and 25-man raids drop the same gear, just in different quantities. (That and they're going back to the BC model of having multiple dungeons in each raid tier, rather than the Wrath model of one main dungeon and sometimes one or two single-boss raids in each tier.)
#263 Jun 29 2010 at 3:24 AM Rating: Good
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BastokFL wrote:
Derekloffin wrote:
If you look over at WoW as of Wrath, every time a new progression level comes out, the community moves to that, and never looks back.


I have to say, that's not been my experience with most of WotLK. When Ulduar was out, my guild would still run Naxx fairly often, and when ToC came out, we still also did Ulduar fairly often (and even Naxx on occasion). It's really only since ICC opened up that we've focused pretty much exclusively on the top raid tier. (Although on my server ToC PUGs are also pretty common, because a lot of people want gear, and a lot of those people are bad and can't down very many ICC bosses.)

It's true that PUGs still run ToC on many servers, but that's basically it. Only the top two raids are considered, with an occasional Ony run. People also do VoA, but only for badges; no one actually cares for the gear in it from what I've seen. I'd prefer a model where content wasn't that outdated. It'd be great if people still did Ulduar for gear, because Ulduar was an excellently designed raid - far better than ToC.

The problem is, if the gear gap is too great, then either no one will run the early instances or everyone will be forced to. That is, if Raid 2 gear is significantly better than Raid 1 gear, but the content isn't tuned so that you need R1 gear to do it, everyone will skip to it; and if it is tuned so you need R1 gear, everyone will be forced to do R1 and probably won't be happy for that. On the other hand, if Raid 2 gear isn't significantly better, then why do it? If it's only slightly better, than by the time we hit Raid 5, the content from Raid 1 will be trivial due to increased stats.

And I absolutely do not want to see situational pieces, like resist sets. I played a bard in FFXI, and nothing ****** me off more than having to carry 8 different instruments around on top of three staffs and numerous other pieces. Unless we get an infinite storage system in town, and a good, built-in tool to organize our equipment sets, having situational gear will only be a headache. On top of that, it needs to be situational to an entire encounter, not fight-to-fight. If I had a piece that said "Al'taieu: ACC+5", I'd take it there. If it said "Vs. Genbu: ACC+5" and we're farming more than Genbu that night, not a chance in ****. My inventory space and convenience are more valuable to me than having a piece of gear in my inventory to suit all possible encounters.

If we have to go with situational gear, then ideally, on top of the above, I'd like to see gear that emphasizes your role in the party rather than your stats, or what you happen to be fighting. If you're playing a RDM, for example, you can have a set with bonuses to your healing (not like +MND; substantial bonuses, like +potency), and another set emphasizing enfeebles, and another emphasizing buffs. WHMs can see similar, but with emphasis on potency, AoE spells, mana efficiency, etc. Obviously this would work better in a game with a bit less class homogenization, and it's a lot harder to come up with examples for DD classes, who have the same goal in the end - kill things fast. But even there, there's some potential - more physical, more magical; more towards abilities or auto-attacks; WS frequency or power. Balance things so nothing is superior in every fight and it has a chance of working. It is, however, a Herculean task to actually implement.
#264 Jun 29 2010 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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Imagine if the gear that dropped from mobs was mainly situational. I don't mean it has to have elemental resists or even that you have to swap it all out all of the time, but let's say that different weapons are aspected to be good vs certain mob families or types, or give a bonus when casting certain spells or whatever. All of your gear could be equal and yet not the same, or at least, you'd have a lot more room to provide new gear without gear inflation.


I would question how often situations would arise where you would need the gear. For example, how often will the Sword of Beastslaying that does +10% damage against beasts come into play? Are there going to be a lot of beast bosses in the game that will ensure that the sword sees regular use? Will there be more going forward so that the sword can see continued use? Furthermore, is this the only beastslaying weapon one would ever need? Will they add another one that's +15% damage to beasts, and if so, how will it be balanced so that it doesn't obsolete the old one?

Additionally, one has to ask if the Sword of Beastslaying is required. If a boss fight is balanced so that it is required, then aren't you creating a vertical progression chain by doing so (i.e. getting enough swords for people from content A in order to be successful in content B)? On the other hand, if it's not required for the boss, will having the Sword trivialize the encounter in such a way that people demand that you have the sword to make the content way easier than it normally should be?

These are the kinds of questions that need to be asked when adding situational equipment and buffs. If the situation is such a rare event, then having the gear on hand is pretty useless; if it happens too often, then having the equipment usually becomes a must.

Quote:
Now imagine that in addition to gear, bosses dropped tokens that allowed you to improve your character, sort of like salvage, but the effects are smaller and more permanent. Maybe Bahamut drops a token that can be slotted onto your paper doll some place, and it either gives you +1% movement speed or +1% haste or whatever. Some useful, noticeable benefit. Now later on you release a new dungeon and that dungeon is tougher than the first dungeon, but it drops similar rewards. There are weapons with different affinities, armor that looks different or has different (but not necessarily better) stat distributions, and so on. Additionally, some of the bosses drop tokens that are identical in power to what dropped in the last dungeon, but they can work along side the old tokens. So now maybe you can have +2% movement speed or +2% haste or +1% movement and +1% haste, etc.


The stacking tokens seem like a terrible idea. If the system is horizontal, and all content is therefore accessible by people fresh out of small-group dungeons, then the tokens will gradually trivialize the content, both present and future, unless future content is tuned so that the tokens are taken into account. If that's the case, then it's not horizontal anymore.

Quote:
Now, that old content is not obsolete. If you ever want to "re slot" your character, it's useful to go back there. If you ever need a weapon with a particular affinity, it's useful to go back there. If you're a new player, you don't just want to skip past it. If your friends are more interesting in dungeon #2, then you can still do that, and still get useful rewards, but you'll still have a reason to go check out dungeon #1 at some point in time as well (though maybe you'll need to join a Linkshell that's dedicated to doing that content instead of running it with your friends). Basically, all of your options are open all of the time. All of the gear and tokens and whatever are worth getting (assuming you don't already have them) rather than only the new gear. If you have all of the gear and the tokens that you need, then you've essentially "cleared" that content, and you never have to go back if you don't want to.


Bolded for emphasis. That right there is why I think this design is terrible.

It should never come down to me having to go to another guild and exploit them for the purposes of catching up. If I want to play with friends, then I should be able to play with them shortly after reaching endgame, rather than spending months exploiting strangers. This is the main reason why I think the emblem system in WoW works well; the emblems ensure that my friends will want to run things with me as I gear up, and I don't have to go and PUG nearly as much, or join some random nub guild and use them to get gear so I can join a better guild until I'm caught up to my friends.
____________________________
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Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#265 Jun 29 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
Quote:
If your friends are more interesting in dungeon #2, then you can still do that, and still get useful rewards, but you'll still have a reason to go check out dungeon #1 at some point in time as well (though maybe you'll need to join a Linkshell that's dedicated to doing that content instead of running it with your friends). Basically, all of your options are open all of the time. All of the gear and tokens and whatever are worth getting (assuming you don't already have them) rather than only the new gear. If you have all of the gear and the tokens that you need, then you've essentially "cleared" that content, and you never have to go back if you don't want to.


Bolded for emphasis. That right there is why I think this design is terrible.

It should never come down to me having to go to another guild and exploit them for the purposes of catching up. If I want to play with friends, then I should be able to play with them shortly after reaching endgame, rather than spending months exploiting strangers. This is the main reason why I think the emblem system in WoW works well; the emblems ensure that my friends will want to run things with me as I gear up, and I don't have to go and PUG nearly as much, or join some random nub guild and use them to get gear so I can join a better guild until I'm caught up to my friends.


Honestly, I didn't like that suggestion either, but not for just that sentence. In my mind, -all- endgame content should be -equally- open.

Consider heroics in WoW, except pretend that they don't drop gear. If you do DTK, you get badges. If you do Gun, you get badges. If you do UK or UP, you get badges. Maybe you don't like Oculus; you don't HAVE to do it. Maybe you don't like Nexus (I hated Nexus), you don't HAVE to do it.

Now let's reintroduce the gear, and pretend that no raids exist; endgame is JUST heroics.

In my mind an ideal system is where every event gives "points" or "tokens" or "badges" or "ham" or whatever you want to call it. IN ADDITION to the points/tokens (let's just call them points from here on out) you get from completing content, you ALSO get gear. I'm going to link part of an older post of my own:

Quote:
Expansion zero (base game) introduces Castle and Dragon. Castle gives sword, helmet, breastplate, Dragon gives robe, staff, shield.
Expansion one introduces Volcano and Castle 2. Volcano gives sword b, gloves, boots. Castle 2 gives dagger, pants, necklace.
Expansion two introduces Dragon 2 and Beach. Dragon 2 gives ring, mace, shield b. Beach gives breastplate b, bow, staff b.

Castle and Castle 2 take 3 hours each. Completing either will reward you with 4000 "Awesome points".
Beach and Volcano take 1.5 hours to complete and rewards 1750 "Awesome points".
Dragon and Dragon 2 take 30 minutes each to complete and each reward 500 "Awesome points"

You can talk to an NPC in town (similar to the Dynamis/Limbus AF upgrade NPC or the badge/token vendors) and trade in your AP to buy everything from sword to staff b.


In my proposed solution, all content, old or new should offer three things:

1) It should be tuned to whatever the current level cap is, so that it provides a reasonable challenge and can't just be facerolled (like 6x99 walking through Nyzul or 10x80 doing Zul'Aman).
2) It should offer physical gear drops when challenges are completed or bosses are defeated.
3) It should offer points to all in attendance so that everyone, including those who didn't get gear, ALWAYS get points for attending ANY event.

Furthermore, there should be NPC vendors available who will exchange points (obtainable from any event, just like badges are obtainable from any heroic and any raid but the current tier) for any item available from any endgame event.

Don't like Dynamis? Do Salvage and use your points to buy AF2. Don't like Sky? Do Nyzul and use your points to buy Abjurations. Don't like ToC? Do Ulduar and use your points (badges) to buy T9.

The main advantage of a system like this is that id doesn't force you to do content you don't want to do to get gear you want, and it doesn't force you to do the same content over and over for one or two pieces of gear that just don't seem to drop or that you keep getting outlotted on.

Not only do you get to do the event you want to do (regardless of whether it's the newest, shiniest event or if it's the oldest event that you're just feeling nostalgic for or just happen to enjoy), you're GUARANTEED to get points that you can eventually put towards whatever item you want to get.

I see two downsides to this system, and here are proposed solutions

One is that as people get better gear, newer content will need to be made harder to remain a challenge, but making the content too hard will mean that freshly level capped players will have a difficult time overcoming the challenges if they are too hard. Proposed solution is to introduce two difficulties, a "regular" and a "hard" difficulty (like WoW hardmodes). Harder difficulty should allow players to receive higher drop rates (say 2-4 items per boss instead of 1-2) and more points than lower difficulty.

Two is that as more new content is released and the level cap is increased, gear will need to become substantially better in order to compensate for the new level cap, and endgame events will become "too easy" if everyone is +5 or +10 levels higher. My solution to this is twofold:

First, to address the issue of "too much endgame stuff", monitor frequency of participation and make note of events that players don't do. If few people do one or two events anymore, THEN phase them out. I know I said I don't like phasing out content, but if no one is doing it anymore, it's not because of the rewards (since the rewards are the same everywhere); it's because they don't LIKE it. If no one likes it and no one wants to do it, get rid of it. Keep the stuff everyone is still doing, and add a third difficulty for an interim period. Let's say you increased the cap from 75 to 80; in addition to "75" and "75 hard", you now also have an "80", with more points. Let it remain there for about 3 months (less or more, depending on how long it takes people to start doing the new difficulty option), and then phase it out so that just the "80" difficulty option remains.

Secondly, you're going to want more gear, and eventually you have such a thing as "too much" gear. Have the old content drop upgraded versions of the same gear at the new difficulty, and let the people who already have the old gear have the option of trading theirs in, plus a small amount of points (the difference in cost) to upgrade to the new equivalent.

Let's take an example. We have a dragon, we'll call him Fred. Fred drops a Sword with STR+10 that costs 5,000 points at a vendor and a robe with INT+10 that costs 7,500 points at a vendor. Fred is level 70 content, and awards 500 points because it takes 20 mins to get to him and 10 mins to kill him (30 total) with a group of 10x70.

Now, we have increased our level cap to 80. Level 80 Fred will take 20 mins to get to and 10 mins to kill for a group of 10x80. He drops a sword with STR+12 that costs 6,000 at a vendor, or you could trade in his old sword plus 1000 points. He also drops a robe that gives INT+12 and costs 9,000 points (or old robe + 1500 points). Level 80 Fred gives 600 points upon defeat. Level 70 Fred will still offer his old rewards for 3 months, and then will be removed.

This system has the benefit of allowing old work to not go to waste (as it can be upgraded toward the new model), AND it allows players to have options of what content they want to do, so no one feels "forced" into or out of content.

I don't care whether you want to label it "vertical" or "horizontal" or "diagonal" or "hokey pokey" or whatever; I think a system like this could appease fans of either system. It adds new gear without making old gear totally worthless, and it adds new content without forcing people to keep doing the old stuff OR forcing them to do the new stuff.
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#266 Jun 30 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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3,178 posts
Fascinating discussion of endgame progression.

I understand what you're saying, but I thought FFXI endgame was pretty fun. I suppose I'm a casual so it would be.

Argee completely that new content is the key! On a regular basis. ~6 months.

I'm not sure how you can balance the endgame if the level cap keep raising. You're going to end up making some mistakes along the way and ******* off alot of Rangers (or something like that). But still, I'd like for the level cap to raise every 2~3 years as described.

The key for me is short missions. 30-minute missions that you can only do once or twice a day (to keep the fanatics from progressing past them to quickly). Fanatics are cool with me - they know what they are doing! But sooner or later FF fans get massive RL responsibilities (kids, work, school, more kids) and offering fun casual gameplay is the key to keeping those people subscribing.

More subscriptions = more content, right? Catering to casuals and fanatics together is a strategy that SE did very well in ToAU. I want to see that from the start this time.


#267 Jun 30 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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456 posts
I think Makhalia system is not bad and could work, but its just not my cup of tea. This just opens you up to a large percentage of your endgame player base never doing a lot of your content, and just picking the easiest event to get the points to get whatever item. For example, who would even attempt AV (Yea I know AV is broken but just bear with me) if you could get all his drops from just getting tokens from any event. People would just spam an easy event and use the tokens to get AV drops.

Quote:
First, to address the issue of "too much endgame stuff", monitor frequency of participation and make note of events that players don't do. If few people do one or two events anymore, THEN phase them out. I know I said I don't like phasing out content, but if no one is doing it anymore, it's not because of the rewards (since the rewards are the same everywhere); it's because they don't LIKE it. If no one likes it and no one wants to do it, get rid of it. Keep the stuff everyone is still doing, and add a third difficulty for an interim period. Let's say you increased the cap from 75 to 80; in addition to "75" and "75 hard", you now also have an "80", with more points. Let it remain there for about 3 months (less or more, depending on how long it takes people to start doing the new difficulty option), and then phase it out so that just the "80" difficulty option remains.


Just to address this, if no one is doing the event it doesn't mean they don't like it. In your system it would mean that its just simply harder than the other events. Sorry to say but people will gravitate towards the easiest way to get what they want, and the likeness of the event really isn't that important. As far as the level cap, I would much rather it stay the same for a period of time. I'm not in favor of raising it too much. Maybe every 2-3 years until it gets to a point that feels right (like 75 felt right for FFXI) and leave it there. If its not broke do not fix it, and to keep raising the level cap just provides problems for yourself.

Now back to the Endgame system to me it would lose the appeal of special fights and special bosses. Even if you make a hard and very challenging (which means extremely fun to me) boss, it would mean nothing because people would never even fight it. They would much rather spam the event they are comfortable with (the event they know they are going to win every time), and use the tokens to get the drops of that challenging boss. I'd rather be forced to defeat the challenging boss than have the easy way to get whatever you want because believe me all LS's (or at least most) will pick the easy way (by spamming the easy events for tokens) which does the game or FF design team no justice. Why should they even spend their time designing a crazy challenging boss if everybody will just get his drops from other events.

When I see somebody in that epic gear (or when I get it myself), I would rather think Wow they actually killed that boss, rather than already know that they got it from spamming other events and probably never even attempted the big boss (whoever that ends up being).

Instead of just saying I don't like his system though I will try to turn his system in a way that I would be fine with. Maybe if you can only get an event item from tokens after you gained the title from that event. This would at least indicate that you have beaten the event at least once, and not just spammed other stuff to get the big boss drops. Items don't unlock (giving you the opportunity to purchase them with token) until you gained the title from that event. I would be okay with that system, at least you had to defeat the big boss once before you obtained his gear from other events, even though one win could be luck (lol).



Edited, Jun 30th 2010 11:41am by HocusP

Edited, Jun 30th 2010 12:28pm by HocusP
#268 Jun 30 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
HocusP wrote:
I think Makhalia system is not bad and could work, but its just not my cup of tea. This just opens you up to a large percentage of your endgame player base never doing a lot of your content, and just picking the easiest event to get the points to get whatever item. For example, who would even attempt AV (Yea I know AV is broken but just bear with me) if you could get all his drops from just getting tokens from any event. People would just spam an easy event and use the tokens to get AV drops.

Quote:
First, to address the issue of "too much endgame stuff", monitor frequency of participation and make note of events that players don't do. If few people do one or two events anymore, THEN phase them out. I know I said I don't like phasing out content, but if no one is doing it anymore, it's not because of the rewards (since the rewards are the same everywhere); it's because they don't LIKE it. If no one likes it and no one wants to do it, get rid of it. Keep the stuff everyone is still doing, and add a third difficulty for an interim period. Let's say you increased the cap from 75 to 80; in addition to "75" and "75 hard", you now also have an "80", with more points. Let it remain there for about 3 months (less or more, depending on how long it takes people to start doing the new difficulty option), and then phase it out so that just the "80" difficulty option remains.


Just to address this, if no one is doing the event it doesn't mean they don't like it. In your system it would mean that its just simply harder than the other events. Sorry to say but people will gravitate towards the easiest way to get what they want, and the likeness of the event really isn't that important. As far as the level cap, I would much rather it stay the same for a period of time. I'm not in favor of raising it too much. Maybe every 2-3 years until it gets to a point that feels right (like 75 felt right for FFXI) and leave it there. If its not broke do not fix it, and to keep raising the level cap just provides problems for yourself.

Now back to the Endgame system to me it would lose the appeal of special fights and special bosses. Even if you make a hard and very challenging (which means extremely fun to me) boss, it would mean nothing because people would never even fight it. They would much rather spam the event they are comfortable with (the event they know they are going to win every time), and use the tokens to get the drops of that challenging boss. I'd rather be forced to defeat the challenging boss than have the easy way to get whatever you want because believe me all LS's (or at least most) will pick the easy way (by spamming the easy events for tokens) which does the game or FF design team no justice. Why should they even spend their time designing a crazy challenging boss if everybody will just get his drops from other events.

When I see somebody in that epic gear (or when I get it myself), I would rather think Wow they actually killed that boss, rather than already know that they got it from spamming other events and probably never even attempted the big boss (whoever that ends up being).


Personally, I was fine with FFXI's system as-is, but the counterargument made by people who dislike it is that they don't want to be forced to do old content. Their solution to that is to constantly replace old content with no content, so that you have no reason to ever do the old content at all, because it is no longer worth it.

I agree that many people will gravitate towards easier events, but some people actually -do- want to do something that's at least semi-challenging. I stopped doing sky because it was too boring. I started doing Salvage because it was more challenging and more involved. The gear from Salvage was nice, although there were still some pieces from sky I never did get. Also, having the events reward points based on the amount of challenge and time involved should factor in. More challenging events would give better gear and more points. If the people want to do the easy events, they'll just get less points for doing it. If Event A takes 2 hours and Event B takes 30 minutes, Event A should give at least 5x the amount of points of Event B.

There's also the matter of community feedback; if the bulk of the players are avoiding an event because they feel it is too difficult, then it should either have the difficulty tuned down or have the rewards tuned up. AV is a good example of a cluster@#%^ in this area because the community has beaten AV, only to have it called "cheating" and AV gets nerfed. The community has asked for how to be AV and got ignored over and over and over and over again until they finally got a somewhat cryptic reply.

I understand, from a developer standpoint, not wanting your pride and joy to be beaten by everyone and require no skill whatsoever to defeat, but there comes a point where a developer has to realize that if too few people are willing to even attempt it because they know they can't win, then maybe some adjustments need to be made.

There's also a slightly more involved option; you could do it chocobo rental style; that is to say, the more people that do one event in a short amount of time, the less points it gives, and the less frequented events give out more points as less and less people do them. Of course people could argue that this system "forces" you do to content, but it's an idea.

Like I said, I liked FFXI's system but some people have complained that they don't feel they're making any progress in a game if they aren't in a hamster wheel where new content and gear is constantly replacing old content and gear. I'm just bouncing around theoretical ideas that would allow for the introduction of new content without forcing anyone to do content they dislike, or content becoming obsolete.

The arguments on each side of the discussion are:

- I don't want to have to keep doing old content when new content comes out
- I want all new gear to be better than all old gear

versus

- I don't want to be stuck doing nothing but only the newest content
- I don't want my gear to become worthless and useless when new content is released

I was just submitting a rough draft of an idea that would attempt to appease both sides, since neither side is happy with the other side. Some people quit FFXI because they don't like having to still do Dynamis and Sky 5 years later. Some people quit WoW because they don't like having to vendor their hard earned gear and leave an event they've spent so much time in behind in the name of new content and gear every four months.

EDIT:

Quote:
Instead of just saying I don't like his system though I will try to turn his system in a way that I would be fine with. Maybe if you can only get an event item from tokens after you gained the title from that event. This would at least indicate that you have beaten the event at least once, and not just spammed other stuff to get the big boss drops. Items don't unlock (giving you the opportunity to purchase them with token) until you gained the title from that event. I would be okay with that system, at least you had to defeat the big boss once before you obtained his gear from other events, even though one win could be luck (lol).


That sounds perfectly reasonable.

Edited, Jun 30th 2010 4:29pm by Mikhalia
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
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Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
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