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Can someone please explain how starting later is a handicap?Follow

#52 Jul 02 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Won't a huge influx of ps3 players come march force them to create new servers... Or will they just stuff them all into the current pc servers? I'm not really sure how that works.
Though if they do make new servers a lot of the problems of a late start will be diminished, other than the extra six month wait of course.
#53 Jul 02 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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WooShoo wrote:
ascorbic, I'm jealous that you managed to contact so many of your old friends. Good luck with your link ^^(or whatever the new team will be).

I know I am being far too idealistic in this, but I sincerely hope people can resist the pressure to "wear this gear" and "only level here". My friends and I were constantly trying new gear sets and leveling areas, and we got to see so much of Vana'diel in such a relaxed way.

The one thing I am not looking forward to is the ridiculous nitpicking over gear/skills/leveling from the average player, especially at endgame. I've always said, "let a person demonstrate how they do their job before you critisize them", and "the person is more important than their skill". And before anyone decides to "correct" me on gear and whatnot, think about how this post reflects how I play the game. I'm definitely not an elitist. I'll take being casual and enjoying the people around me any day over being the best. ^^


Thanks for the well wishes! I know this "issue" looms large for a sizeable number number of potential players, but we all know that any perceived "advantages" will disappear in time. By the time the PS3 players are joining up in end game Companies people will quickly start forgetting the doom and gloom so many are feeling now. Just look at the initial separation of NA XI players on PC and PS2. No one would even think of it now. And I believe (hope?) that those "left behind" from the groups they intended to migrate with will still make their way to the game instead of "ragequitting" or redirecting their interests on another MMO. I only post because I think it's important for those baffled by the frustration being thrown about the internet to understand just how large and problematic this has caused to many communities. I don't condone some of the postings on here spewing negativity, but it's also important to let people vent a bit. We all know there's nothing to be done about it. It still stinks though, and maybe a little internet venting helps them deal.

I'd like to believe in your utopian MMO thinking... I've just never seen it accomplished. The higher level you get, and the more you group with strangers, the more likely people are to try and force certain builds, gear, and strategies, especially as an MMO matures. It's not an entirely bad thing: these builds/gear/strats are heralded because they work, often better than other combinations. I've only been on one MMO "Day one" before, and I have to say, even though I didn't like the MMO very much, being part of discovering it all with the rest of the population was a blast. Then again, it wasn't enough to keep me playing, so I wouldn't call it the best reason to choose a game over another. :D
#54 Jul 02 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
For the record, I'm playing on the PC. However, I don't think some PC players are being fair to the disgruntled PS3 users. Here is an example of what I mean.

Long ago back when WotG was released I was still playing FFXI on the PS2. For some reason SE screwed it up and NA(not sure about the JP) were locked out until SE shipped the disc. Meanwhile those on the PS2 where exploring the Past while the entire PC community was ******** how they got screwed. My memory is bit vague, but I do believe some people bought the PS2 version and used a DL torrent or something to go around this issue after awhile. It's funny how quickly PC gamers forget such things. Now the shoe is on the other foot and the console users are told to quit whining. I hardly call that fair especially considering how poorly SE worded their "simultaneous" launch.


An excellent example. I understand PC players not wanting to read through endless posts of rage and despair (of course, skipping those posts/threads would be a better option than the "stop yer bi&*%%&$^" posts....). I think It's obvious that if he roles were reversed we'd see the same moaning from those so intolerant of it now.

Of course, the problem here is exacerbated by the fact that the PS3 is the less expensive avenue to access. Some people play on console purely because of preference. Those people are now making plans to play on PC in the interim in most cases. Most of the people that were choosing the PS3 platform did so because of cost. They can't (or can't easily) afford to procure the hardware to play the PC version in time. If they could, many would have been going that option from the start. So if the situation were reversed, you'd see a ton of PC moaning, but a good number would be able to stash $300 away (and much less if they needed to and went used) in time to get a PS3 in time to play, if it were that important to them. That becomes more difficult and less likely when speaking about the prices to get a PC to play this game at all, let alone at decent settings. For PC players a platform move would be a pain. For PS3 players, it's often a steeper barrier.
#55 Jul 02 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
ascorbic wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
For the record, I'm playing on the PC. However, I don't think some PC players are being fair to the disgruntled PS3 users. Here is an example of what I mean.

Long ago back when WotG was released I was still playing FFXI on the PS2. For some reason SE screwed it up and NA(not sure about the JP) were locked out until SE shipped the disc. Meanwhile those on the PS2 where exploring the Past while the entire PC community was ******** how they got screwed. My memory is bit vague, but I do believe some people bought the PS2 version and used a DL torrent or something to go around this issue after awhile. It's funny how quickly PC gamers forget such things. Now the shoe is on the other foot and the console users are told to quit whining. I hardly call that fair especially considering how poorly SE worded their "simultaneous" launch.


An excellent example. I understand PC players not wanting to read through endless posts of rage and despair (of course, skipping those posts/threads would be a better option than the "stop yer bi&*%%&$^" posts....). I think It's obvious that if he roles were reversed we'd see the same moaning from those so intolerant of it now.


It's getting hard to avoid them when they're starting to dominate the front page. Between multiple new threads started every day by people asking what PC hardware they need and PS3 users deciding they need a new thread for their own personal rant, it's starting to get out of control.
#56 Jul 02 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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ascorbic wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
For the record, I'm playing on the PC. However, I don't think some PC players are being fair to the disgruntled PS3 users. Here is an example of what I mean.

Long ago back when WotG was released I was still playing FFXI on the PS2. For some reason SE screwed it up and NA(not sure about the JP) were locked out until SE shipped the disc. Meanwhile those on the PS2 where exploring the Past while the entire PC community was ******** how they got screwed. My memory is bit vague, but I do believe some people bought the PS2 version and used a DL torrent or something to go around this issue after awhile. It's funny how quickly PC gamers forget such things. Now the shoe is on the other foot and the console users are told to quit whining. I hardly call that fair especially considering how poorly SE worded their "simultaneous" launch.


An excellent example. I understand PC players not wanting to read through endless posts of rage and despair (of course, skipping those posts/threads would be a better option than the "stop yer bi&*%%&$^" posts....). I think It's obvious that if he roles were reversed we'd see the same moaning from those so intolerant of it now.

Of course, the problem here is exacerbated by the fact that the PS3 is the less expensive avenue to access. Some people play on console purely because of preference. Those people are now making plans to play on PC in the interim in most cases. Most of the people that were choosing the PS3 platform did so because of cost. They can't (or can't easily) afford to procure the hardware to play the PC version in time. If they could, many would have been going that option from the start. So if the situation were reversed, you'd see a ton of PC moaning, but a good number would be able to stash $300 away (and much less if they needed to and went used) in time to get a PS3 in time to play, if it were that important to them. That becomes more difficult and less likely when speaking about the prices to get a PC to play this game at all, let alone at decent settings. For PC players a platform move would be a pain. For PS3 players, it's often a steeper barrier.


It doesn't help when you consider that an attitude running rampant (mostly by -certain- posters) on the forums less than a week ago was the "PC sucks, you're all idiots for buying expensive systems! My PS3 is so much better, less expensive, and I can run it too!" Speaking on my own personal behalf, I find it difficult to feel sorry for that particular person who wouldn't shut up about how much better PS3 was. Although he was replaced by a new poster who won't shut stop repeating himself either, so there you go.

Aside from these two people, I do think it's unfair to the rest of the PS3 posters however, and I have to admit that if the shoe were on the other foot (PS3 September, PC March) that I would not be buying a PS3 just for this game; I'd wait till March. I'd be annoyed about it, and probably write a not so nicely worded letter to SE, but I'd wait because I just don't want to buy a PS3 for one game. So I can totally understand where people are coming from in not wanting to buy a PC for one game, especially since they cost more.

I'm another person who was looking forward to starting "on day one" and I'm even slightly annoyed that I couldn't play during alpha and likely won't get into beta. But that sucks for me, and I'll live I guess.

I wouldn't nerdrage and insist that I'm never buying a SE product if I had to wait another 6 months, but I would be rather annoyed at the prospect of everyone else already knowing everything that I -want- to figure out for myself.

I do hope they launch new servers at PS3 release so that the players who want it can at least have some fresh servers to themselves. It's only fair, considering.

I also hope that SE changes their mind and moves up the PS3 release date.
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#57 Jul 02 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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I've pretty much accepted it the fact that I'll be waiting to play, but in the mean time we can all check out SE's groundbreaking new free MMO, Fantasy Earth Zero.


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#58 Jul 02 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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dodoy wrote:
When FFXI came out for NA, it has already been out for JP for over a year, and they do get the upperhand in discovering new things and setting prices and standards.


JP did have the price set, and then the NA people came in and our greedy little asses sky rocketed things. so atleast with a world wide release, we'll be able to charge and arm, leg, and left nut from the get go, instead of upseting a decent economy. yay.

ontopic - I see no real advantage to at release really. I'll probably wait a month or two before picking up my copy now that it's closer to release day. Less bugs, and let the wiki get some info on it so i'm not running blind.
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#59 Jul 02 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
ascorbic wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
For the record, I'm playing on the PC. However, I don't think some PC players are being fair to the disgruntled PS3 users. Here is an example of what I mean.

Long ago back when WotG was released I was still playing FFXI on the PS2. For some reason SE screwed it up and NA(not sure about the JP) were locked out until SE shipped the disc. Meanwhile those on the PS2 where exploring the Past while the entire PC community was ******** how they got screwed. My memory is bit vague, but I do believe some people bought the PS2 version and used a DL torrent or something to go around this issue after awhile. It's funny how quickly PC gamers forget such things. Now the shoe is on the other foot and the console users are told to quit whining. I hardly call that fair especially considering how poorly SE worded their "simultaneous" launch.


An excellent example. I understand PC players not wanting to read through endless posts of rage and despair (of course, skipping those posts/threads would be a better option than the "stop yer bi&*%%&$^" posts....). I think It's obvious that if he roles were reversed we'd see the same moaning from those so intolerant of it now.


It's getting hard to avoid them when they're starting to dominate the front page. Between multiple new threads started every day by people asking what PC hardware they need and PS3 users deciding they need a new thread for their own personal rant, it's starting to get out of control.


Agreed. We really need a sticky for the "Will my PC run XIV? / Upgrade advice threads.
#60 Jul 02 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
They said simultaneous worldwide release.

Not simultaneous worldwide AND platform release.

Two different things.


I really am getting a good laugh from the lengths some people are going to to try and convince themselves SE didn't @#%^ them. The "They never claimed it would be a simultaneous release" people are almost as much fun as the people who are desperately clinging to the hope that PS3 will get FFXIV before March 2011.

Quote:
Square Enix never said they were developing it on the PS3 and porting to PC


This is a new one that's been popping up some of forums from the SE fanboys. You are absolutely right SE never stated they were developing it on the PS3 and porting it but I guess maybe then they shouldn't have stood in front of FFXIV banner in PS3 booths claiming Simultaneous release.

Quote:
And just a reality check for you, the overwhelming (and I mean overwhelming) majority of MMO players play on PC, not console. SE is one of the only companies in the world today to offer AAA MMO titles on a console. The majority of their Japanese users apparently favor console over PC, but Japan is a small portion of the overall MMO market. You got all the explanation you need...that it has been pushed back. Would you have rather they waited until retail release and explained then why there are no PS3 copies on store shelves? And you claim to be a grown-up? Try acting like it.


I am aware that most people play MMO's on their computers but the overwhelming population of people who play SE games play them on CONSOLES you know like PS3.

And as far as I got all the explanation I need. That right there is one of the reasons I am so ****** off. THERE HAS BEEN NO EXPLANATION FROM SE Not one God **** word from SE. Nothing.

Lets take your scenario of at E3 they all of a sudden discovered that they couldn't get the PS3 port out in time for whatever reason (lets go with the guy who was responsible for getting the PS3 FFXIV up and running has been surfing **** for the last year and instead of working) That was more than 2 weeks ago why didn't SE explain what was going on? Would I have still been ******* Yes but a lot less so, instead 2 weeks ago they were still pushing simultaneous release while standing in front of a FFXIV banner in a PS3 booth. It's been 3 days since they made their announcement about the PC release and you cannot honestly tell me that they are blissfully unaware that there are a lot of ****** off and angry PS3 players out there that have some questions (**** they should have has a response ready the second they updated their web site with PC release dates) but again SE has not said one **** word.

Nothing.

Not a oooppps, not a "My Bad", not a sorry or even hey PS3 users you can "Suck It"

How about just once SE actually show some respect for the people who buy their products.












Edited, Jul 2nd 2010 8:07pm by runway
#61 Jul 02 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
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Look dude, I'm upset about the news too because I wanted to play on the PS3 and not boot camp this thing from my old and rotting macbook, but the choice that SE has made doesn't come lightly. I'm willing to believe that the programmers would like more time to make the PS3 version of a higher quality product, on par with the PC, and if the PC version is ready earlier, then by all means release it earlier so they can start making money. I'm also willing to believe that the company went through the financial analysis of several release options and decided it would be more profitable to go with the staggered release.

Finally, I'm willing to believe that they do want to please the consumers. But in the end, SE is a company making money - that's their purpose.

I have decided not to purchase a PC and will wait for the PS3 release. Personally and financially, it's a better decision for me, and I will expect a high quality product come March or whenever they decide to do this.

So calm down because you're making the other PS3 users look bad.
#62 Jul 02 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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You know through all of this I am wondering since most Japanese will be playing FFXIV on the PS3 how are they taking the 6 months wait?

I'm guessing here but I would think they are not too happy about it and I would think SE would want to keep them extremely happy.
#63 Jul 02 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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SundayMoney wrote:
You know through all of this I am wondering since most Japanese will be playing FFXIV on the PS3 how are they taking the 6 months wait?

I'm guessing here but I would think they are not too happy about it and I would think SE would want to keep them extremely happy.t


i was thinking the same thing today at work, or even if the majority of japanese players PC's will be able to handle FFXIV, only reason i say that is because SE never updated graphic's settings for FFXI,, i mean like bigger screen resolutions, and Draw distances.., the FFXI community had to use registry hacks and a certain 3rd party tool just to make FFXI look good. you would think if the majority of japanese players had large screen monitors/ high end pc's they would have simply added them settings to the FFXI configuration tool.
#64 Jul 02 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just to reiterate the "please discuss nicely and don't toasty burn your fellow forumites to a crisp" policy. A few of you have very pashionate oppinions and tend to express or defend them forcefully. Please tone that back. If you need to yell at people go to OOT or Asylum. Or you can yell at me, but only once...

But seriously folks, play nice please!

I've decided to reward those of you who are playing nice so far in this thread with a bit of adminy rateup. Keep up the good work!

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#66 Jul 02 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You know through all of this I am wondering since most Japanese will be playing FFXIV on the PS3 how are they taking the 6 months wait?

I'm guessing here but I would think they are not too happy about it and I would think SE would want to keep them extremely happy.


Not to throw any logs on the fire but I honestly think that Square Enix is gonna get an earful from the Japanese players and because of this I really believe that this is the reason why a PC Sept launch is not the only "little surprise" Square has in store for people.

The next little surprise is gonna be Square releasing the FFXIV PS3 version in Japan well before the U.S. gets their PS3 version in March 2011.
#67 Jul 02 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
runway wrote:
I am aware that most people play MMO's on their computers but the overwhelming population of people who play SE games play them on CONSOLES you know like PS3.


Who cares who makes the game? The game is an MMO. The overwhelming majority of MMO players are on PC. That's all you need to know.

Quote:
And as far as I got all the explanation I need. That right there is one of the reasons I am so ****** off. THERE HAS BEEN NO EXPLANATION FROM SE Not one God **** word from SE. Nothing.


Okay then, here's your explanation: the PS3 version isn't ready yet.

Happy now?
#68 Jul 02 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Who cares who makes the game? The game is an MMO. The overwhelming majority of MMO players are on PC. That's all you need to know


Not FF MMO's. The majority of people who played FFXI were console users. (PS2 and XBox and even a few PS3 users) and within a year the majority of people playing FFXIV will more than likely be console users.


Quote:
Okay then, here's your explanation: the PS3 version isn't ready yet.


How about an SE rep come out and say that and maybe give a brief explanation as to why PS3 users are being asked to bend over.

What would that take? 5-10 minutes worth of SE's time?
#69 Jul 02 2010 at 10:59 PM Rating: Decent
runway wrote:
Quote:
Who cares who makes the game? The game is an MMO. The overwhelming majority of MMO players are on PC. That's all you need to know


Not FF MMO's. The majority of people who played FFXI were console users. (PS2 and XBox and even a few PS3 users) and within a year the majority of people playing FFXIV will more than likely be console users.


There has only been one FF MMO, so be a sport and drop the plural. XI did not perform as it could have, and its longevity suffered due to an inability of the PS2 to allow the developers to add new content the way they otherwise may have liked to. It makes sense this time around that they'd develop for PC first and port to PS3. Get the framework for the platform with the greatest longevity potential hammered out and then port to the static system(s). I'd like to see a census showing a breakdown of PC vs. PS2 users for FFXI but at the same time, I don't. I don't really care.


Quote:
Quote:
Okay then, here's your explanation: the PS3 version isn't ready yet.


How about an SE rep come out and say that and maybe give a brief explanation as to why PS3 users are being asked to bend over.


You're just taking this personally and aren't interested in reason. If SE came out and made a statement you'd still be ****** and ranting and playing the victim, so why should they invest ANY effort trying to keep people like you happy? Good riddance to bad apples. If this is all it takes to send you into a frothing rage, the MMO community as a whole is better off without you.
#70 Jul 02 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
You're just taking this personally and aren't interested in reason. If SE came out and made a statement you'd still be ****** and ranting and playing the victim, so why should they invest ANY effort trying to keep people like you happy? Good riddance to bad apples. If this is all it takes to send you into a frothing rage, the MMO community as a whole is better off without you.


What answer or reason have you given? All you have done in post after post is tell me "cause that's the way it is"

Edited, Jul 3rd 2010 1:12am by runway
#71 Jul 02 2010 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
runway wrote:
Quote:
You're just taking this personally and aren't interested in reason. If SE came out and made a statement you'd still be ****** and ranting and playing the victim, so why should they invest ANY effort trying to keep people like you happy? Good riddance to bad apples. If this is all it takes to send you into a frothing rage, the MMO community as a whole is better off without you.


What answer or reason have you given? All you have done in post after post is tell me "cause that's the way it is"

Edited, Jul 3rd 2010 1:12am by runway


Set aside the rage for a moment and try to think rationally. If SE expected the PS3 version was going to be ready for September to launch with the PC version, do you really think they'd hold off on shipping it "just because"?

Of course not. They'd be sacrificing millions of dollars in lost revenue over a "just because". So that means that the rational, logical, reasonable explanation...the one that I've already given you...is that the PS3 version is shipping later than the PC version because the PS3 version isn't ready yet. If you were reading for the purpose of understanding, you'd have already read the part where I told you that.

Is it so hard to believe that the decision to split the releases and ship the PC version early was a very recent decision (as in: was made immediately after E3)? If you were interested in reason, you'd at least be prepared to consider that, but you're obviously not. You're livid because the release date for the platform you intend to play on has been pushed back. The chance for the release of the game on ANY platform to push back has ALWAYS been present. From a business standpoint, forfeiting the income from users on one platform when that platform's version is basically ready to go would be flat out stupid. You're $13/month stacked against the millions of dollars/month SE would lose for needlessly delaying the PC release...hmmm...tough call.
#72 Jul 02 2010 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
Aur, lol... you're never going to convince this guy. He's not going to post rationally. Don't waste your time.

Runway, we're all tired of hearing it. You're ******* You think you've been wronged. We get it. Enough is enough.
#73 Jul 02 2010 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Getting back to the OP's question. I'll try to think of some ways that might possibly be a handicap, and leave out the friends part as you've already named it.

With PS3 users starting later:

- The market share of products will be controlled by the PC users

- PC users will have a 6 month head start in finding ways to hack the system to take advantage of PS3 users by the use of 3rd party software

- PC users will be posting information on the things that they find so that kills the experience for the PS3 users

- PC users will have an advantage on killing Notorious Monsters with less competition and also control the market on rare items

- PC users will also have information on pop times for Notorious Monsters ahead of the PS3 users

- In addition to having an advantage on killing NM mobs, PC users will have better gear before PS3 users

- PC users will capitalize on end-game content

- PC users will have bragging rights on being the first to get to the highest level


Those are all of the things that I could squeeze out of my head. Now, having said all that I will rebut myself and see if I can't cancel out any of them logically.

- Very possible that the market share of products will be controlled by PC users, but that's assuming that they're using the very same system that is present in FFXI, and from what I've heard it is a different system; so unless you are a alpha or beta tester that can confirm this we'll have to wait a little bit longer to find out.

- This point kind of irrelevant because the only way that this would affect PS3 users is through capitalization of products. Other than that, there I don't foresee any direct advantages that a PC user will affect a PS3 user.

- This is going to happen regardless of PS3 users starting on the same date or not. We live in the age of information and information once release spreads like wildfire. There is only one way to defeat this, and it is simply to not cheat yourself figure out the things for yourself in the game.

- This is a repeat leading to the first and second points really, and a bit of the third point, meaning information will spread like wildfire. Be informed if you want to compete for rare gear otherwise, find a different route. I see no advantage here because on the playing field it comes down to information, and reflexes. Trust me I hunted for damned those Ochiudo's Kote's for at least 6 months and only was able to get successfully claim him 5-6 times. I only got 1 pair, the second pair I saved for and bought.

- Kind of the same as the 4th point. If you want to be the best, you gotta be informed and go get it. Release dates don't matter on the field.

- This is an assumption that FFXIV will use the same armor system as FFXI which may not be the case. Upon entertaining that idea, yes it is true that PC users may acquire efficient gear earlier than PS3 users. But in that sense your chances of obtaining the gear would greatly depend upon your drive to get it, and/or your reflexes, tying the fourth point also in a sense.

- I can't really say how much endgame content will be available within a 6 month period even if there WAS such a thing as end-game. I believe the highest level when FFXI was first release was....50? Because I wasn't there I didn't get to experience the level 50 end-game content, but when I got on-board 1 year later I was able to get the level 50 end-game content, and also the level 55, 60, 65, 70, 75. I have to say when I achieved those end-game activities, I didn't feel I cheated "XXSephirothXX", or "CloudXX" out of anything, and I'm sure they didn't give 2 cents a crap that I achieved it also. In fact I think they were pretty appreciative that the information gained from those that have experienced it before helped them achieve those same goals when they got there.

- Yes PC users will be the first to get to the whopping level of Fill in a random number here before anyone else. But what would you do at such level? To the person that is just racing to gain levels, are you REALLY experiencing the game? Heck if you just want to level, I know a perfect game just for leveling; it has no cap, but experience doubles on itself to get to the next level.


I'm going to be a PC player, but I'm trying to sympathize with the PS3 users. Honestly these are about the only reasons that I could come up with that might have just the smallest even faintest amount of advantage, and even then I was able to rebut them in my head. I do have to admit some of them are a little bit wild, but I honestly couldn't bring myself to think of any rational advantages. Feel free to add and debate.

/sarcasm on

For me it comes down to 2 things I think why people are ******* aside from the friends thing:

Greed
E-peen bragging rights

/sarcasm off
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#74 Jul 03 2010 at 1:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The market share of products will be controlled by the PC users


PC crafters will have 6 months to learn what to make to exploit money out of people. They also get to set the standard for the economy. It'll even out over enough time but there will definitely be an impact. PS3 users will catch up but it might make progress slower.

Example:

Blacksmith skill level 50 can use fewer items to make more items.

Blacksmith skill level 1 uses more items to make fewer items.

I'm speculating based on the description on the FFXIV website. It sounds like the more skilled you are at a craft, or maybe even a particular item, the more efficiently you can produce the item.

If that's true then the level 50 smith can produce more and sell cheaper, because he uses fewer items, giving him a distinct edge on the competition.

I've also considered the possibility that repairing equipment will require a consumable item. Maybe a higher skilled crafter can make better repairs using fewer tools. Maybe repairs can fail and a tool will break. Higher skills would reduce how often tools broke, making repairing cheaper. The crafter could charge less for repairs than his lower leveled counterpart.

As you said we don't know yet, but it could very well create advantage/disadvantage.

Either way it will eventually level out, but progressing could be slower than it might have been if starting on even ground.

Another possibility that I didn't see you list are the pre-order items. I think we're all mostly in agreement that they won't be game breaking. However, they do look to increase early progression speed. Plus, they just might look cool :). This we'll learn about a little sooner than the other possible effects. September 22nd.




Kayanna, I appreciate that you've given it some thought and obviously sympathize. My opinion though, is that it will have a temporary effect on everyones game experience.

We just don't know how yet.
#75 Jul 03 2010 at 2:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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See I'm trying to find where I saw it, the part which said that the higher level you are the less products you will need. I know I've seen it somewhere, but I can't remember where. If you remember please point me in that direction so I can re-read and confirm that information, at least for myself.

From the official website all I could surmise from the Armory System was that armor has to be repaired. This was from the story of Leeroy and also reading a bit of the Blacksmith information.

This sounds to me like the system which is employed in WoW where your armor degrades and if you don't repair them you take more damage. Or quite possibly something along the same lines as a D&D system where armor has a value and must be taken into account for physical damage dealing. The armor value degrades over time and a blacksmith must repair it.

Also from the website, I'm not sure if anyone has checked it, but "Craftable Items" have been updated on the Blacksmith.

Items:

Cross Guard
Spatha
Pickaxe
Spiked Labrys
Halberd

I can definitely see that there will be ingredients that will need to be acquired in order to make certain things. In that sense yes I can see control of the market with regards to those products. But farming for those products would be equivalent to hunting NM's and again it would come down to information and reaction timing at that point in order to compete.

On the Bahamut server there used to be a guy that controlled the Emperor's Hairpin before they introduced the Empress Hairpin. This guy had his game, but even with all that I got the mob a few times, only 1 drop though ; ;.

Mining in Movolpolis was pretty competitive as well even rudely at times cause some people just came by and stole your mining spot WHILE YOU WERE MINING. lol. But yea again that would still come down to reaction time.

Yes I would agree that the special items may have a slight advantage starting out, but then again people that don't get the Collector's Edition would still be at that disadvantage also. For a person that didn't get the Collector's Edition that started over on a new skill at the same time of the PS3 release would see no difference, other than experience on the field.

I'm gonna keep trying to hammer away at this just to see if there is any truth to the matter. Ultimately yes we won't know until the release but at least this way maybe we can shed some light in some dark areas if there are any.
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#76 Jul 03 2010 at 5:53 AM Rating: Good
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Just thought I'd add my 2 cents...

I started FFXI in 2006, which I think most of you would consider horribly "late". No doubt there was already a whole bunch of max level players, but that didn't stop me from enjoying the game at all. I made my share of friends, went through the grind through your typical zones (even after 4+ years after it came out), finished storylines (CoP just last year!), leveled crafts, endured endgame stuff, whatever. Sure maybe if I started earlier I could possibly have been much richer than I was or I could have been the first one to do _____ or get _____ but personally, that's not my priority, so I don't feel handicapped at all to start late (I agree that it may be unfair to not be able to play at the same time as others, but I personally wouldn't go as far as to say I would be disadvantaged).

Obviously it's not my place to tell people what their priorities should be. If being first is what you care about, then yeah, consider yourself handicapped, but if you ask me, I don't think you should let that stop you from enjoying playing the game (which is why we play... right?)


Edited, Jul 3rd 2010 7:54am by Kainase
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#77 Jul 03 2010 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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No amount of whining will make them release the game any sooner. I have just accepted the fact that I will have to wait until march in order to play a game that I have been waiting to play ever since it was first announced.

That being said I think there is a big difference with a 6 month delay. Firstly I will say that FFXI was the first MMO for many people, and that is part of the reason why the fact that we were starting a year behind the Japanese wasn't a major factor. This time however, many people are very MMO experienced and there are a number of reasons why they would be mad to start 6 months behind.

My first problem is the same one that you stated in the OP, I wont be able to play with my ex LS mates (who seem to be more annoyed by this than me). We planned on remaking our HNM Ls right from day 1 (which would just be social at first until we reached that point in the game of course) and the linkshell would have basically all of the old members that either still play FFXI or have quit for a number of reasons. I was really looking forward to the big reunion, and that has totally been stripped away from us. We were going to pick the same server (of course), but also the same starting city and basically play together in a party from day 1. I was looking forward to partying with the linkshell any time of day, without having to seek for other people (unless we wanted to seek more people). Also since this is my situation, even if they add new servers I won't be able to play on them because I'll have to join whatever server they are on.

That is definitely the biggest issue with starting 6 months late.

Another problem is some people were planning on being the first to do something. Whether that was level a class, or level a craft, or explore, or experience a mission, or watch a cut-scene, it has still been taken away from them. They now have to join a game that has already been explored, crafted, leveled, until at least new content is added in a update, but even then they will be too far behind to even experience the update at first. The first to kill this boss, or the first to get this drop, or the first to complete this quest is now gone.

Another problem is the market will already be set. People that like working the market was planning on being part of the group that set the market, but instead is forced to come into a game that is already controlled. Instead of setting the prices, they will just be paying the prices.

Another thing that isn't really a problem but its more like an issue. People were planning on being noobs together. Only the people that participated in the alpha/beta would know much about the game. Now the ps3 people will be complete noobs, and most of the PC players will already be skilled. This of course will not make a difference over time but immediately it does. Many people was looking forward to being a noob again alongside everybody else, but now this takes the sparkle off being a noob. Instead of not knowing what is the best gear and skill, and places to level skills, there will now be guides to follow and people not being patient with you. Instead of laughing at each other together, it will mostly be the jokes on you until you catch up. Instead of getting to enjoy being a noob, you will have to quickly get over that noobness because you are already behind enough.


As I said earlier, the fact that Japanese players had access before us in FFXi didn't really make a difference because FFXI was a lot of people's first MMO. They and myself included was naive and didn't know anything about MMOs, and this caused me to literally not even notice or care that the Japanese players had a jump start. This time around people are a lot more experienced and understand MMOs, and thats why it matters this time around.

I could probably continue later but I have to end this right now. Remember I'm not complaining and I am now cool with waiting until March to play, but I'm just stating what we will miss out on. I just find its funny how if the shoe was on the other foot, its crazy how fast the opinions would change. Except for the people that continue to just whine (because I know that is annoying), people do have a legit reason to feel like they are missing out.


Edited, Jul 3rd 2010 9:19am by HocusP
#78 Jul 03 2010 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Another thing that isn't really a problem but its more like an issue. People were planning on being noobs together. Only the people that participated in the alpha/beta would know much about the game. Now the ps3 people will be complete noobs, and most of the PC players will already be skilled. This of course will not make a difference over time but immediately it does. Many people was looking forward to being a noob again alongside everybody else, but now this takes the sparkle off being a noob. Instead of not knowing what is the best gear and skill, and places to level skills, there will now be guides to follow and people not being patient with you. Instead of laughing at each other together, it will mostly be the jokes on you until you catch up. Instead of getting to enjoy being a noob, you will have to quickly get over that noobness because you are already behind enough.



I thought I would add to this. One of the reasons some people are upset is that wanted to play before guides were written. They wanted to play before people knew what they were doing and strong sources of information were available.

Some respond to that with, well if you don't want to read the guides then don't read the guides, and that's fine. I agree with that. Say you get into a group though, and there happens to be one of those people in it that want to help you be better. They're just offering advise because they're more experience than you and they know more about what works better in what situation. They don't mean any harm.

Even if you don't read a single guide, wiki, or any other source of strategic information, you will run into these types of people. They won't mean to detract from your "noob" experience but they will. Some people don't want other people telling them how to play the game. Even if that person has good intentions.
#79 Jul 03 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I suspect some of the delay will be to account for the need to switch over the graphics rendering. a typical PC computer game is going to heavily leverage directX and possibly .net. For a microsoft xbox 360 game, porting that over is easy since an xbox is essentially a PC. a PS3 is alot less proprietary than the old PS2 code used to be, but it still has some elements that are different than your typical PC engine. If they new from the beginning they were going to a PS3 release, they would have ideally gone with a simultaneous development, but if they are unsure how the main game is going to do, they might have staggered the developments so that they don't have to pay twice as many developers, and so they can cut that portion of the project if something goes awry at launch. Of course that is pure speculation on my part.
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#80 Jul 03 2010 at 8:32 PM Rating: Decent
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How would one go about monopolizing the market with a given craft? o.o
#82 Jul 04 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
I suspect some of the delay will be to account for the need to switch over the graphics rendering. a typical PC computer game is going to heavily leverage directX and possibly .net. For a microsoft xbox 360 game, porting that over is easy since an xbox is essentially a PC. a PS3 is alot less proprietary than the old PS2 code used to be, but it still has some elements that are different than your typical PC engine. If they new from the beginning they were going to a PS3 release, they would have ideally gone with a simultaneous development, but if they are unsure how the main game is going to do, they might have staggered the developments so that they don't have to pay twice as many developers, and so they can cut that portion of the project if something goes awry at launch. Of course that is pure speculation on my part.



I don't remember if it was SE that said this, and I may be confusing it with someone else, but from what I remember they usually lead with the PS3 first and if that works than the port to PC and XBox. I can definitely see how this would be true, because of the separate codes that are needed for the PPE (Power Processing Element), or the motherbrain, and the 8 SPE (Synergistic Processing Elements), or the workhorses. From what they said it would require two different compiler programs with two different lines of coding to work, and trying to meld those two codes together might become a hassle.

This leads me to think that SE developed this game on the PC first and now they're in the process of porting it over to the PS3. It would stand to reason that is why the delay of the PS3 release to ensure that all content is translated over to PS3 exactly as how the PC has it.

But if this is the case then it kind of throws another wrench in SE's PR department, because I remember SE distinctly saying that this game was going to be pushing the envelope of the PS3 from the start. It would make no sense to program coding for a PC and claim to push the limits of the PS3, when the allocation of system resources is clearly different for each platform.
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#83 Jul 04 2010 at 5:33 AM Rating: Default
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It is handicap especially when it comes to crafting . There could be some real advantages getting your crafting skill high early in the life of the game.

That being said life isnt fair either and can think of a million things that arent fair that are more important then ff14. That and the fact SE has been tweaking for the pc as priority all along, it only makes sense that they would still have much work to do on the ps3 realese.
So yeh it kinda sucks but thats just how it is, SE didnt set out to upset anyone. As Aurelius pointed if they got the pc version ready to go and everything in place by late this year but they still have 6 months of tweaking on the ps3 version, how can you actually blame them for releasing the pc version in the meantime?
You can't. SE did nothing wrong

Edited, Jul 4th 2010 7:44am by piglato
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#84 Jul 04 2010 at 7:11 AM Rating: Good
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As has been mentioned, there was a long standing stigma among the Japanese players that NA players were less experienced because we got the game a year later. Hopefully this won't be as big an issue with FFXIV on the PS3. It's much harder to tell the difference between a console player and a PC player than an NA player and a Japanese player. But even outside of that, I still would have preferred to play the game from day one.

It's not a big thing, but I always hated hearing about events that I missed in that first year. There were some unique items that I could never get simply because I wasn't Japanese. As pointless as it is, I don't want to miss out on a silly hat or pants just because I don't have a powerful PC. In FFXI they made an effort to rerelease some of the event prizes, but by the time I quit there were still some coveted Japanese-only items.

Some of my favorite FFXI moments came from figuring out new content. No guides, no pre-set "right" way of doing things, just me, some friends and a whole new world to explore. Being the first, or among the first, people to do something was such a great feeling. I always felt a little bad that I could never get that with Zilart or the original country missions.

Another issue with playing later in FFXI was that everyone else had already done everything. For the longest time the only way to get any missions done was to do it with an entirely new group. Veterans didn't want to waste their time, gil and exp on stuff they'd already done for little to no reward. I doubt this will be an issue in FFVIX though, or at least not as big of a one as, so far, it looks to be much more single player/small party accessible.

None of this adds up to me buying a new computer just to play 6 months early, but I'll probably always have a slight sense of annoyance like I did when this happened in FFXI.
#85 Jul 04 2010 at 9:56 AM Rating: Decent
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It's to be expected that some posters are a bit extreme in their rantings, but the PS3 users have reason to be upset. SE hasn't addressed the PS3 release much other to say they would do Beta on it after the glitches were worked out of the PC version. Most of us assumed because the PS3 version was optimized, we were just waiting on the PC platform to be fixed. The slap in the face is relevant because SE mislead so many people. I had planned to play on the PS3 myself, but like all the points addressed in this thread, it will be a handicap. I don't want their to be a standard day 1 when I open the box. That's why I'm purchasing the special edition version. I don't want a Wiki and elitist forum like BG to dictate the standard. Sadly, PS3 users should expect this if they don't bite the bullet and get the PC version. Some posters have made good points as to why SE would release FFXIV early despite the delayed launch of FFXIV.

I don't believe that making a few bucks now will bold well for the future of the company. SE was a rotting corpse back in 1989 when their last ditch effort Final fantasy 1 came out only to be saved by their NES console users. Because of their console users, SE has made billions and even branched making movies and purchasing other studios such as their own competitor Enix. It's not good form to have separate release dates for a platform of a game of this magnitude. The FFXI release was different, it was Sony's fault for dragging their feet releasing the HDD. It had nothing to do with SE themselves.

I truly feel for the PS3 users because we got screwed here. Now I'm forced to upgrade my rig just so I don't fall behind and get the new game smell preserved. This was a major ***** up by SE and I don't care how many millions of dollars they would make in the short-term. This won't be so easily forgotten by those players that can't upgrade or those that play with friends/wives that are stuck waiting anyways. This launch could have seriously hurt the future sales of the FF series for console users. Without an official release by SE, we're forced to conclude that we are 2nd class customers and that truth won't bode well by many.

Edited, Jul 4th 2010 12:01pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#86 Jul 04 2010 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Depending on the player, I don't see it as a handicap at all.

For me, its discovering new things WITH friends, not hearing about it when I log on for the first time.

At FFXI release I loved getting killed in new places with friends and sweating out new zones. Its more of an adventure in a sense. But I also remember friends begging JP players for help on opening advanced jobs and limit break quests.

I started WoW 3 years after its release and I got to hear about all the stuff to do once I leveled. I got to hear about all the places I needed to go to get the gear I needed. But I did end up with a well geared tank and healer and 6 professions capped.

Its all about how you play and considering FFXI is still around after 9 years (?) there's no need to rush it things.

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#87 Jul 04 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Default
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I don't believe that making a few bucks now will bold well for the future of the company.

Without an official release by SE, we're forced to conclude that we are 2nd class customers and that truth won't bold well by many.


"Bode" is the word you're looking for. :)
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#88 Jul 04 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Mordeyb wrote:
Depending on the player, I don't see it as a handicap at all.

For me, its discovering new things WITH friends, not hearing about it when I log on for the first time.

At FFXI release I loved getting killed in new places with friends and sweating out new zones. Its more of an adventure in a sense. But I also remember friends begging JP players for help on opening advanced jobs and limit break quests.

I started WoW 3 years after its release and I got to hear about all the stuff to do once I leveled. I got to hear about all the places I needed to go to get the gear I needed. But I did end up with a well geared tank and healer and 6 professions capped.

Its all about how you play and considering FFXI is still around after 9 years (?) there's no need to rush it things.


The issue is, even if you start with your friends, even though everything is still new to you, it has already been explored, and you have little to no effect on trends that may already have set in.

Think of the first few people in FFXI who unlocked SMN and weren't forced to heal; the first people who unlocked NIN and had a chance to be a DD instead of a tank (or even the people who figured out it could).

Some people would take enjoyment out of something as simple as being the first to arrive in a brand new city with only half a dozen other players around. "Isn't this place cool?" "Yeah, it's awesome." Consider the first time you die without knowing what hit you. "WTF, that salamander one shotted me!" "I know, what happened there?" Consider the first time you wander into a new area with your party and try to find a place to camp. "Oh sh*t, a goblin just popped!" "Run!"

That's all so much different six months later.

"Isn't this place cool?" "Meh, it's okay."
"WTF, that salamander one shotted me!" "Yeah, it does tail swipe. Don't stand behind it."
"Oh sh*t, a goblin just popped!" "That's why I told you this was a bad place to camp, that gob always pops there."

You even end up with terms that become collectively accepted by a playerbase in the game's infancy. Nicknames for mobs, camps, etc. All of the sudden it's your first time setting foot in Valkurm after soloing your way to 14 and your party expects you to know where "the boat camp" is, despite lack of a map. Someone asks "What's SC?" and someone else replies "Double Thrust > FB". Did I mention you're using the sword and have no idea why the DRG and BLM are yelling at you?

Starting later won't -kill- you, it won't make the game unplayable, but you do miss out on some of the magic of ignorance. Not knowing anything is suddenly a lot more fun when no one around you knows anything either. Little stupid things like "Hey try /c on a mob before fighting it" or "I figured out how to sort my inventory and group items together" are somehow fun when the person you're talking to doesn't already know what you're telling them. They mean a little more when the person telling you only just figured them out seconds ago.

That's what you miss out on. Many players won't care. Some will. For the ones who will, starting 6 months late is not something they are looking forward to.

EDIT: If anything, I want to get in on day one to do my personal best to ensure that Lancers, Pugilists, etc are known as "damage dealers" and not "damage per seconds". The one thing that always irked me through my days of WoW and I would hate to see it carry over into this game. I'm strongly hoping that XI players bring "DD" into XIV.

Edited, Jul 4th 2010 12:57pm by Mikhalia
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#89 Jul 04 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
Yes, you will miss out on some of the magic by starting six months late...

That said, I started playing FFXI about two years late and there was still plenty of magic to be had. For every player who said "We should go to the dunes when we hit level 13 (which later became 10)," there always seemed to be more who just wanted to go kill things in Tahrongi Canyon. And so on and so forth.

The key to experiencing the "magic," in my opinion, is to enter the game at a time when lots of new players are coming in... and there will be tons of new players starting up with the PS3 release.

The six month wait is a drag, and not being able to play with your PC friends right away is a bigger drag... but advantages or disadvantages aside, there will still be plenty of magic to be had at the six-month mark.
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#90 Jul 04 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Depending on the player, I don't see it as a handicap at all.

For me, its discovering new things WITH friends, not hearing about it when I log on for the first time.

At FFXI release I loved getting killed in new places with friends and sweating out new zones. Its more of an adventure in a sense. But I also remember friends begging JP players for help on opening advanced jobs and limit break quests.

I started WoW 3 years after its release and I got to hear about all the stuff to do once I leveled. I got to hear about all the places I needed to go to get the gear I needed. But I did end up with a well geared tank and healer and 6 professions capped.

Its all about how you play and considering FFXI is still around after 9 years (?) there's no need to rush it things.


This is a good point, too bad a lot of our friends will be playing on PC and have already explored everything by the time we get in. Believe me there is a different feeling when you are the only 1 in your group that stuff is new too, and everybody is just like go here and do this so you can catch up to us. FFXI releasing a year after Japanese didn't matter because it was a lot of people's first MMO. They didn't have any Japanese friends that they needed to catch up too, so they got to enjoy being a noob with all the Na players. After a person look back on a game they have played for a number of years, they usually say that the best time was the noob days. Now this time around I will have a very short noob time, because I will have to catch up with my NA linkshell mates. I will have to zip through as fast as possible because feeling like your behind everybody else isn't a good feeling. It will be the only way to enjoy the game with my friends, because most of them are PC players.

I mean friends that I have been in a hnm ls with since the beginning of time. Most I have chilled with in real life over the years. I still remember walking in dragon's aery and having Fafnir (sometimes Nidhogg) just walking around because not many people was in end game that early. Only 1-2 Japanese Ls would go and they couldn't even beat fafnir at the time. An end game world that not many people even witnessed. It was fun getting so many fafnirs with no competition what so ever, and I could never imagine how end game was going to turn out. I never imagined how it would come to packed camps and how easy he would become.

Anyways I'm kind of just reminiscing and off topic so I will bring it back. I'm not saying that stuff like fafnir will be in the game in 6 months. All I am saying is now instead of enjoying the game with all my friends from the old days, I will now be in a rush to catch up.

That being said its nothing we can do about it and I'm sure in March I will get over it. I will just have to zip through to catch up to my friends as quickly as possible.

Edited, Jul 4th 2010 1:05pm by HocusP

Edited, Jul 4th 2010 1:16pm by HocusP
#91 Jul 04 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Yes, you will miss out on some of the magic by starting six months late...

That said, I started playing FFXI about two years late and there was still plenty of magic to be had. For every player who said "We should go to the dunes when we hit level 13 (which later became 10)," there always seemed to be more who just wanted to go kill things in Tahrongi Canyon. And so on and so forth.

The key to experiencing the "magic," in my opinion, is to enter the game at a time when lots of new players are coming in... and there will be tons of new players starting up with the PS3 release.

The six month wait is a drag, and not being able to play with your PC friends right away is a bigger drag... but advantages or disadvantages aside, there will still be plenty of magic to be had at the six-month mark.


If you look within yourself and not around the net, I agree the "magic" might still be there. However, we know in the age of Wiki and elitist forums the classes will already be pigeon-holed by the time PS3 users log in for the first time. Look at the FFXI content now. It's a race to post Walk of echoes/Abyssea stuff on Wiki/BG. Just because you might not read it yourself, that doesn't change the fact that a standard is already in place. IE.. The method of winning the ACP final mission. New players on the PS3 will only be able to be awed by their surroundings, not the secrets of the game content. It's possible a bunch of noobs will just do Guildeves and ignore all the data collected already, but all that really does is cause conflicts. IE.. SMN/blm, RDM melee and so forth.. No matter how much we might try to sugarcoat it, anyone who doesn't start on day 1 will lose a part of the magic. Not to mention the economy itself will be against the influx of new people. Again look at FFXI to confer this. Every single time a new synth comes out, or drop to make gear(IE PUP AF) people exploit the **** out it. I can easily see PS3 being exploited by greedy day 1 players. We'll already know what gear is optimal for newbs so don't think for a second, this won't be a problem. The same thing happened back when Xbox 360 users began to play FFXI.

The bottom line is simple. There is a huge disadvantage to any group that starts later than another group. It's not just a matter of starting late, it's because of how you'll find yourself exploited by the masses. The JP exploited the **** out of us NA players in FFXI too. I'll never forget the top crafters of FFXI. heck most of these douchbags don't even play anymore, I still remember them. This one JP crafter charged an extra million just to make anything with his name on it and yes idiots indulged him. Anyone who seriously believe that the PS3 users are not going to handicapped have their head in the clouds.
#92 Jul 04 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
You're forgetting one thing... this is only a six-month gap, and it's with a brand new game that still needs lots of work... not only with content, but also with porting it to an entirely new platform.

I have no clue why SE is rushing out the PC release. But if you've been following FFXI for the past few years, then deep down you probably sense the same thing I do -- that SE has stretched itself very thin to push out FFXIV on time.

Do you really think that FFXIV is going to have tons and tons of content upon its release? And do you really think we're going to see a significant amount of new content within six months?

Do you really think we'll know everything there is to know about every discipline by then? Or that jobs won't be tweaked/changed during that time? SE is notorious for changing jobs and abilities on the fly.

Will we even have endgame content during the first six months? This is SE, the company that has taken longer than three years to finish FFXI's Wings of the Goddess expansion.

As I said before, none of the above was settled when I started playing FFXI two years after release. There was some endgame (sky, dynamis), but the accepted methods for doing things continued to evolve and change. There were some areas, but many were added to the game later on. New jobs were added, current jobs were overhauled, the way experience parties worked changed dramatically, players evolved and learned how to solo, etc.

And that was after two years... and with SE focusing on just one active MMO.

PS3 users only have to wait six months, and SE has stretched itself thin working on two active MMOs!

So, no, I really don't think the PS3 users are going to miss out on everything. Yes, they will miss out on experiencing the bare-bones, unpolished product that PC users will get in September. But given what we know about SE -- and that they're also preoccupied programming the game for 3D in addition to the PS3 -- I don't see how anyone can expect FFXIV to change too much in the first six months.

My prediction is that SE will hold back on massive content overhauls until after PS3 users join the fray. You heard it here first.
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#93 Jul 04 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Not to mention the economy itself will be against the influx of new people. Again look at FFXI to confer this. Every single time a new synth comes out, or drop to make gear(IE PUP AF) people exploit the **** out it. I can easily see PS3 being exploited by greedy day 1 players. We'll already know what gear is optimal for newbs so don't think for a second, this won't be a problem. The same thing happened back when Xbox 360 users began to play FFXI.


Problem is, you can't compare what happens in a brand new game to what happens years after a game is released. Players in FFXI nowadays are more able to exploit certain synths/recipes/etc. because they've had years to accumulate the gil and skill to do so. Also, because there are more cookie cutter methods in FFXI, players are more likely to be taken by these exploits.

Again, we must remember that FFXIV will still have fresh paint on it by the time PS3 users come online. People will still be figuring out which way is up. SE will still be tweaking disciplines to work as intended. Crafting will still be in its infancy. And if everything the development team has said about FFXIV's battle system is true, then there will be much less pigeon-holing in FFXIV, which will also prevent these crafting exploits that some people fear.

And really, there's no such thing as low-level optimal gear for newbs. Two years after the release of FFXI, the only "requirement" was that you don't show up to experience parties with several empty armor slots. People were still camping in Maze of Shakrami and the Buburimu Penninsula outpost (the playerbase later shifted mainly to camping at Valkurm... then the playerbase fled Valkurm and shifted to Korroloka Tunnel... then, later, much of the playerbase ditched exp parties altogether to solo through level 20).

Anyway... PS3 users should be upset by the delay in their release date, but I think many of them are upset for the wrong reasons. There is nothing that will happen in the first six months of FFXIV that will put anyone at a disadvantage. Yes, some players will temporarily have more gil than you, or they may temporarily have a higher level... but if you think FFXIV will grow and evolve so fast that you'll be left in the dust, then you probably haven't spent too much time following the methods of Square Enix.



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Hyperion
#94 Jul 04 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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205 posts
JenovasPuppet wrote:
As has been mentioned, there was a long standing stigma among the Japanese players that NA players were less experienced because we got the game a year later.


See I think this was a big misconception, or at least my friends and I felt it was. I believe that it wasn't that they believed that we had less experience per-se, but the way that NA players approached each situation wasn't very tactful. An example:

I have a blm friend that I play with and he had a lot of JP friends even though he himself wasn't Japanese. The motto that was taught to him from his JP friends was that "You will never find a 'good' JP blm" the reasoning for this was that they all understood that group harmony was the best and most efficient way to play. Upsetting the balance by pulling BIG numbers meant that your overall party time may be reduced hence why they were very efficient at playing the hate line, and very smart about when to push that line and when to stay their hand.

We NA players seem a little different than that in the sense that our mentality is simply, kill it quicker to gain more exp quicker so we nuke bigger, but we forget to see that in killing it quicker we have the high risk of killing ourselves and reducing the exp gained over all.

I believe THIS is the reason why they regarded us as "less experienced" and not necessarily just because we hopped on board 1 year later.


ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The bottom line is simple. There is a huge disadvantage to any group that starts later than another group. It's not just a matter of starting late, it's because of how you'll find yourself exploited by the masses.


Normally any group that starts out earlier would have an advantage, but it depends on the person and the situation. If we're looking for ways in which we are victims then we will always be victims, and our mentality will always reflect. We must not think this way because if we think this way we will always be at the mercy of someone else, instead of taking responsibility and forging our own path. How I've always thought about it was "I'm gonna shove this in your face when I'm better than you, and I started out later" lol but that's just me.



From everything that I've read on these forums and others is that we are assuming that SE is going to be using the exact same model that is used in FFXI for a lot of this game. This isn't FFXI-2, it is FFXIV, and for all we know the models for this game could have been based off of FFXI but that is as far as it goes, we cannot assume that it is the exact same thing.

For the purchasing and selling of products. I've dug around for information that has popped up regarding buying and selling and the only thing that I could find was that SE was getting rid of the AH system and each person now has a container in which to sell things, in addition sellers now have to pay the tax. Other than that I have yet to see anything regarding actually setting prices on products, this we will not see till at least beta.

For setting the standard for jobs and what not. From what I've seen, the game makes it harder for anyone to set a standard because each player may not have the same traits. I may find more use for having parry than shield bash, or having counterattack versus evasion; it would depend on playstyle. From one of the interviews one of the developers said that:

"If you wanted to play a job that was like FFXI, you would have to find all the traits that reflected that job."

This leads me to believe that there is no more set standard that a Gladiator must have tanking abilities. Mages might special veins that they follow, so not every mage will be an elemental mage; they may not all have poison anymore.

Again I haven't seen enough information out there, legit and non-legit, that would give me enough information to make a solid claim that FFXIV uses the exact same models, meaning buying/selling, jobs, crafts etc, as FFXI.
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#95 Jul 04 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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296 posts
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
I suspect some of the delay will be to account for the need to switch over the graphics rendering. a typical PC computer game is going to heavily leverage directX and possibly .net. For a microsoft xbox 360 game, porting that over is easy since an xbox is essentially a PC. a PS3 is alot less proprietary than the old PS2 code used to be, but it still has some elements that are different than your typical PC engine. If they new from the beginning they were going to a PS3 release, they would have ideally gone with a simultaneous development, but if they are unsure how the main game is going to do, they might have staggered the developments so that they don't have to pay twice as many developers, and so they can cut that portion of the project if something goes awry at launch. Of course that is pure speculation on my part.


It's as good of a theory as anything else. But the big question is how could they not have anticipated such a bottleneck considering the company has already released a game for the PS3 using the same engine? I've now seen 3 separate quotes from Tanaka from E3 2010 around the fansites each reiterating the intention to launch versions simultaneously. I've seen enough to know that two weeks ago that was the plan in Tanaka's mind, no matter how hard apologists want to pretend that wasn't what the Devs have been saying for the past year. So what the heck happened? In two weeks?

I still don't think it was a technical issue at all. A lot people were just as shocked to see the PC version coming so soon as they were to hear of the staggered release. Beta time is now quite a bit less than anyone expected (or the devs said they wanted). Seems to me there was a change in focus, perhaps from higher up in the company. I think both versions were about 6 months away form completion around E3. They shelved the PS3 version and folded that team into pushing PC, cutting the dev time roughly in half to beat Cataclysm or whatever has them spooked. Beta time now only lasts until the PC client is ready to ship instead of having the longer beta the devs desired. Once the game ships, the PC team will stay with the PC client to work on patches and content expansions. PS3 team goes back to work on PS3 client that still needs about 6 months of work - like it did back in June.

It's all an invention of my conspiracy-theory-spewing brain so give it no credence. But it's what I keep coming up with when I try to line up Dev comments about how the testing and releases would go compared to what we now know is true.
#96 Jul 04 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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263 posts
Quote:
It's as good of a theory as anything else. But the big question is how could they not have anticipated such a bottleneck considering the company has already released a game for the PS3 using the same engine? I've now seen 3 separate quotes from Tanaka from E3 2010 around the fansites each reiterating the intention to launch versions simultaneously. I've seen enough to know that two weeks ago that was the plan in Tanaka's mind, no matter how hard apologists want to pretend that wasn't what the Devs have been saying for the past year. So what the heck happened? In two weeks?

I still don't think it was a technical issue at all. A lot people were just as shocked to see the PC version coming so soon as they were to hear of the staggered release. Beta time is now quite a bit less than anyone expected (or the devs said they wanted). Seems to me there was a change in focus, perhaps from higher up in the company. I think both versions were about 6 months away form completion around E3. They shelved the PS3 version and folded that team into pushing PC, cutting the dev time roughly in half to beat Cataclysm or whatever has them spooked. Beta time now only lasts until the PC client is ready to ship instead of having the longer beta the devs desired. Once the game ships, the PC team will stay with the PC client to work on patches and content expansions. PS3 team goes back to work on PS3 client that still needs about 6 months of work - like it did back in June.


This. I think you are dead on.

I will go to my grave believing that initially SE was going to do what they promised. A simultaneous release (despite the fanboys with "it was just a mis-translation" SE meant PC and PS3 at the same time) but a some point (whether it was at E3 or months ago) they decided to take everything they could from the PS3 side and put in all into the PC development for a September release and worry about ****** off PS3 users later.

And not to re-start an argument with people but one of the things that still has me so angry is SE hasn't said a word. Not so much as a peep.

Regardless of what happened to delay the PS3 launch as far as I am concerned SE should have had some kind of statement for PS3 users ready to go the second the PC release dates hit the web. Would I have still been angry? Yes I would have been not nearly as much.







Edited, Jul 4th 2010 4:53pm by runway
#97 Jul 04 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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runway wrote:

I will go to my grave believing that initially SE was going to do what they promised. A simultaneous release (despite the fanboys with "it was just a mis-translation" SE meant PC and PS3 at the same time) but a some point (whether it was at E3 or months ago) they decided to take everything they could from the PS3 side and put in all into the PC development for a September release and worry about ****** of PS3 users later.

And not to re-start an argument with people but one of the things that still has me so angry is SE hasn't said a word. Not so much as a peep.

Regardless of what happened to delay the PS3 launch as far as I am concerned SE should have had some kind of statement for PS3 users ready to go the second the PC release dates hit the web. Would I have still been angry? Yes I would have been not nearly as much.


I think what the people here are trying to get across can be summed up into bullet points (for easy absorption)

1. You're taking this really personally and shouldn't. SE very likely DOES care about PS3 players and the delayed release is most likely due to a very real and necessary reason.

2. You're kind of blowing steam off at the wrong people and not doing so in a very classy way. In fact, you've been downright rude.

3. In perspective, 6 months is really not that long to wait and I'm sure the learning curve needed for ALL players will be such so that there is not a huge monopoly and hierarchy by March.

4. When you start on the PS3 in March, you will be doing so with millions of other players. It's a little different than picking up a game 2 years in and catching up alone.

Essentially, try not to be so anti-SE and add a little bit of positive thinking. It doesn't have to be all doom and gloom, no matter how frustrated you are. Just sayin'.
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#98 Jul 04 2010 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:

Problem is, you can't compare what happens in a brand new game to what happens years after a game is released. Players in FFXI nowadays are more able to exploit certain synths/recipes/etc. because they've had years to accumulate the gil and skill to do so. Also, because there are more cookie cutter methods in FFXI, players are more likely to be taken by these exploits.

Again, we must remember that FFXIV will still have fresh paint on it by the time PS3 users come online. People will still be figuring out which way is up. SE will still be tweaking disciplines to work as intended. Crafting will still be in its infancy. And if everything the development team has said about FFXIV's battle system is true, then there will be much less pigeon-holing in FFXIV, which will also prevent these crafting exploits that some people fear.

Anyway... PS3 users should be upset by the delay in their release date, but I think many of them are upset for the wrong reasons. There is nothing that will happen in the first six months of FFXIV that will put anyone at a disadvantage. Yes, some players will temporarily have more gil than you, or they may temporarily have a higher level... but if you think FFXIV will grow and evolve so fast that you'll be left in the dust, then you probably haven't spent too much time following the methods of Square Enix.


Thayos, you seriously underestimate the addicts that play MMO's. I have no doubt in my mind that some people will have skill capped both their classes and crafts by the time the PS3 version goes live. Look at how many BLU, DNC, SCH's etc got lv75 in like 1-2 days of coming out. FFXIV is supposed to be a more "casual" game so that IMO will only make it easier to reach the skill cap that is set for the first phase of the game. I'm not suggesting for a second that there will be endgame events such as SKY/Dynamis/SEA prior to the PS3 release, but I do think that being on the ground floor controlling the goods and services is a very powerful advantage.

I've followed SE since the original game back on the NES. I know how they operate, trust me. The only way PS3 won't get screwed is if SE limits PC users from maxing out stats of their characters/crafts. SE has confirmed that Guildeves offers a good way to earn gil. You seriously think someone doing Guildeves for 6 months won't have a huge stockpile of gil and supplies? IMO, the only thing preventing pigeon-holing in FFXIV will be the lack of XP per hour. It won't kill a group if they grab something out of the norm. So that pretty much means that Anna our forum WHM/thf can be free to be a special snowflake once again. That being side, the optimal setups will be a done deal. Sure SE might change things to balance a class or whatever, but the basic principles will be the same.



Edited, Jul 4th 2010 11:20pm by ShadowedgeFFXI
#99 Jul 04 2010 at 10:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm actually amazed that it hasn't been brought up as a "Later Content" sort of thing. If they're struggling this much to release the PS3 and PC versions together, how does that bode for later content. Patches, quick fixes, expansions, etc.

I could also stretch that horribly into a giant flaming pustule and wonder if all content would be behind for PS3 users. How would that **** you off?
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#100 Jul 04 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
3. In perspective, 6 months is really not that long to wait and I'm sure the learning curve needed for ALL players will be such so that there is not a huge monopoly and hierarchy by March.


I played a certain MMO that is very popular right now. I capped my level and a craft in less than two months.


Seeing as we know almost nothing about the systems that will be in the game, economically. I can't say, with any degree of certainty, that PS3 users will be at a disadvantage. But it is entirely possible.
#101 Jul 04 2010 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Thayos wrote:

Problem is, you can't compare what happens in a brand new game to what happens years after a game is released. Players in FFXI nowadays are more able to exploit certain synths/recipes/etc. because they've had years to accumulate the gil and skill to do so. Also, because there are more cookie cutter methods in FFXI, players are more likely to be taken by these exploits.

Again, we must remember that FFXIV will still have fresh paint on it by the time PS3 users come online. People will still be figuring out which way is up. SE will still be tweaking disciplines to work as intended. Crafting will still be in its infancy. And if everything the development team has said about FFXIV's battle system is true, then there will be much less pigeon-holing in FFXIV, which will also prevent these crafting exploits that some people fear.

Anyway... PS3 users should be upset by the delay in their release date, but I think many of them are upset for the wrong reasons. There is nothing that will happen in the first six months of FFXIV that will put anyone at a disadvantage. Yes, some players will temporarily have more gil than you, or they may temporarily have a higher level... but if you think FFXIV will grow and evolve so fast that you'll be left in the dust, then you probably haven't spent too much time following the methods of Square Enix.


Thayos, you seriously underestimate the addicts that play MMO's. I have no doubt in my mind that some people will have skill capped both their classes and crafts by the time the PS3 version goes live. Look at how many BLU, DNC, SCH's etc got lv75 in like 1-2 days of coming out. FFXIV is supposed to be a more "casual" game so that IMO will only make it easier to reach the skill cap that is set for the first phase of the game. I'm not suggesting for a second that there will be endgame events such as SKY/Dynamis/SEA prior to the PS3 release, but I do think that being on the ground floor controlling the goods and services is a very powerful advantage.

I've followed SE since the original game back on the NES. I know how they operate, trust me. The only way PS3 won't get screwed is if SE limits PC users from maxing out stats of their characters/crafts. SE has confirmed that Guildeves offers a good way to earn gil. You seriously think someone doing Guildeves for 6 months won't have a huge stockpile of gil and supplies? IMO, the only thing preventing pigeon-holing in FFXIV will be the lack of XP per hour. It won't kill a group if they grab something out of the norm. So that pretty much means that Anna our forum WHM/thf can be free to be a special snowflake once again. That being side, the optimal setups will be a done deal. Sure SE might change things to balance a class or whatever, but the basic principles will be the same.


It'll be pretty difficult for people to define the "optimal" setups when there will be literally dozens of combinations of spells/abilities to test and no parsers with which to compile objective data. There will be almost as many PC buttersheep running around when PS3 version goes live as there will be on launch day.

There's nothing that happens in the first six months of any MMO that makes joining later a daunting task. Sure, some people will have maxed their class rank on a class or two...and lots of people won't have. People don't exist in MMOs to farm for you...I'm not sure why you'd be worried about what people are selling things for. If you don't like the prices they're asking, go farm your own goods. And if they've already got a stockpile of goods and a chunk of gil set aside, it means they're less likely to be competing with you for farming targets and that they're going to have gil to spend on the crap YOU want to sell.

This won't be XI. You can't look at what happened in XI and carry that over to predictions for XIV. I can tell you straight up that unless XIV bombs at PC release, there will be a lot more people playing who have either never played XI or stopped playing it long ago. The community will be far more heavily influenced by what happens in other MMOs and if the XI community thinks they're going to show up and do things the XI way, they're in for a rude awakening.

Give peace a chance. The sky is not falling.
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