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Can someone please explain how starting later is a handicap?Follow

#102 Jul 04 2010 at 11:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I have to agree with Aurelius.

It took FFXI several years to get as pigeon-holed as it was when I left. I don't see six months making a difference in this matter.

Also, with the information we have and what we've been lead to believe, the game being focused towards "casual" play could mean that having a difference of 10 stat points won't really matter. Or that not having X skill because you prefer Y skill might not make a difference. Just a thought.


The apparent variety we can employ has me very excited. I'm an odd duck and I plan on experimenting.
#103 Jul 04 2010 at 11:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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For me it's not really an issue of having a "handicap". What it boils down to is that I, like others, have been anticipating this game for awhile now. Some of us were planning on starting on PS3 because we simply did not have the resources to buy a new PC capable of running the game.

It's more a jealousy thing, I'm jealous that others will start earlier than me. It irritates me because now I have to wait or find a way to buy a PC so I can play a game I have been waiting on for a while now.

I blame Square for not being more clear on what they were planning on doing. Had I known they would release it on PS3 six months later, I would have made plans to buy a PC much earlier. Had I known about the big gap in release dates from the start, this wouldn't have affected me.


P.S People who say, "Well I'm sure you can find other things to keep you entertained in till it comes out on PS3" come off as jackasses. I don't want to find other things to do, I want to play the game I've been anticipating all this time. Just saying.
#104 Jul 04 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Default
CupDeNoodles wrote:
For me it's not really an issue of having a "handicap". What it boils down to is that I, like others, have been anticipating this game for awhile now. Some of us were planning on starting on PS3 because we simply did not have the resources to buy a new PC capable of running the game.

It's more a jealousy thing, I'm jealous that others will start earlier than me. It irritates me because now I have to wait or find a way to buy a PC so I can play a game I have been waiting on for a while now.


I personally thought SE's alpha selection policies were ********* It seemed to me that converting the XI crowd to XIV was largely a no-brainer and that if they were serious about broadening the game's appeal, they would have focused their attention on gathering feedback from people who played XI years ago or didn't play XI at all. Not getting an invite didn't really bother me all that much. What bothered me is that the non-XI crowd was grossly under-represented. But I didn't **** up the boards here for days because one group got preferential treatment in terms of receiving invites.

If you look at the last couple of waves of alpha invites, most of those people didn't even have time to test the game. Invites went out one week and the testing ended 7 days later. Now word on the street is that the beta client was supposed to be available for download and it's a no-show. And hardly anyone is expressing any concern about that. Hardly anyone is voicing their thoughts on what an abbreviated and narrow testing period will do to the overall quality of the game. Everyone is all hopped on up goofballs because we finally got at least one release date and now it's, "ZOMFG SEPTEMBER WEEE!! BUT WAIT!! HOW DO I BUILD A PC TO PLAY!?!?!" or "ZOMFG MARCH **** YOU SE!!!"

Quote:
I blame Square for not being more clear on what they were planning on doing. Had I known they would release it on PS3 six months later, I would have made plans to buy a PC much earlier. Had I known about the big gap in release dates from the start, this wouldn't have affected me.


I don't know if I'll ever understand why it's so hard for some of you people to grasp the notion that maybe the change to release plans was extremely recent. What, you think they've been sitting on this information for six months?
#105 Jul 05 2010 at 12:15 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know if I'll ever understand why it's so hard for some of you people to grasp the notion that maybe the change to release plans was extremely recent. What, you think they've been sitting on this information for six months?


Can you be sure they weren't? Communicating with the English speaking community has never been their strong suit. I'm just going on past experiences when it comes to Square. I don't think I come off as an ignorant ******* knowing how they acted in the past. I do strongly believe that they did know ahead of time but yet again failed to enlighten the rest of us.

#106 Jul 05 2010 at 12:22 AM Rating: Decent
CupDeNoodles wrote:
Quote:
I don't know if I'll ever understand why it's so hard for some of you people to grasp the notion that maybe the change to release plans was extremely recent. What, you think they've been sitting on this information for six months?


Can you be sure they weren't? Communicating with the English speaking community has never been their strong suit. I'm just going on past experiences when it comes to Square. I don't think I come off as an ignorant @#%^ knowing how they acted in the past. I do strongly believe that they did know ahead of time but yet again failed to enlighten the rest of us.



Can YOU be sure they DID know? I don't think you can. I think you're letting jaded cynicism get the best of you and it doesn't help anything because if you're wrong, you're perpetuating a ****** attitude towards SE over nothing. SE has bigger fish to fry...like not releasing a **** product in September because they've shortcutted the testing process.
#107 Jul 05 2010 at 1:31 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

It'll be pretty difficult for people to define the "optimal" setups when there will be literally dozens of combinations of spells/abilities to test and no parsers with which to compile objective data. There will be almost as many PC buttersheep running around when PS3 version goes live as there will be on launch day.

There's nothing that happens in the first six months of any MMO that makes joining later a daunting task. Sure, some people will have maxed their class rank on a class or two...and lots of people won't have. People don't exist in MMOs to farm for you...I'm not sure why you'd be worried about what people are selling things for. If you don't like the prices they're asking, go farm your own goods. And if they've already got a stockpile of goods and a chunk of gil set aside, it means they're less likely to be competing with you for farming targets and that they're going to have gil to spend on the crap YOU want to sell.

This won't be XI. You can't look at what happened in XI and carry that over to predictions for XIV. I can tell you straight up that unless XIV bombs at PC release, there will be a lot more people playing who have either never played XI or stopped playing it long ago. The community will be far more heavily influenced by what happens in other MMOs and if the XI community thinks they're going to show up and do things the XI way, they're in for a rude awakening.

Give peace a chance. The sky is not falling.


You don't need a parser to exploit class imbalances in the game. Everyone knew RNG was broken back in the day. I agree though there will be a lot of noobs running around. Those with previous MMO experience will haveless of a learning curve though. Prior to FFXI, I had no idea what most of the terms in game even meant. Kiting, wtf is that? Now that we live in the mainstream MMO universe(thanks WoW), I don't believe for a minute FFXIV will take that long to figure out. Six months isn't that bad compared to the 1+ year of the FFXI launch yet the PS3 users will be at a disadvantage regardless. The sky might not be falling, but it's an issue just the same.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 2:31am by ShadowedgeFFXI
#108 Jul 05 2010 at 1:56 AM Rating: Good
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I think you're letting jaded cynicism get the best of you and it doesn't help anything because if you're wrong, you're perpetuating a sh*tty attitude towards SE over nothing.


You're right, I do show distrust and question the integrity of a company that has shown it's ****** regard to its consumers in the past. It's not really a baseless accusation if they have done so much in the past to justify a second look. Had they been a stand up company or had I not known how they worked in FFXI then I would give them the benefit of doubt.

If you think me "perpetuating a sh*tty attitude towards SE" is nothing than I have no more to add to this.

Quote:
SE has bigger fish to fry...like not releasing a sh*t product in September because they've shortcutted the testing process.


I agree with this fully but would it really take them that much effort to relay information to the English speaking community? I don't think so.
#109 Jul 05 2010 at 2:35 AM Rating: Good
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
Quote:
I think you're letting jaded cynicism get the best of you and it doesn't help anything because if you're wrong, you're perpetuating a sh*tty attitude towards SE over nothing.


You're right, I do show distrust and question the integrity of a company that has shown it's sh*tty regard to its consumers in the past. It's not really a baseless accusation if they have done so much in the past to justify a second look. Had they been a stand up company or had I not known how they worked in FFXI then I would give them the benefit of doubt.

If you think me "perpetuating a sh*tty attitude towards SE" is nothing than I have no more to add to this.

Quote:
SE has bigger fish to fry...like not releasing a sh*t product in September because they've shortcutted the testing process.


I agree with this fully but would it really take them that much effort to relay information to the English speaking community? I don't think so.


They haven't always been day and date with new information to the non-Japanese media, but it's mattered little: We have several dedicated sites with excellent translators that have been making sure the relevant information has made its way to those looking. It's not like the Japanese knew about the staggered release before we did...

#110 Jul 05 2010 at 3:22 AM Rating: Decent
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ascorbic wrote:
CupDeNoodles wrote:
Quote:
I think you're letting jaded cynicism get the best of you and it doesn't help anything because if you're wrong, you're perpetuating a sh*tty attitude towards SE over nothing.


You're right, I do show distrust and question the integrity of a company that has shown it's sh*tty regard to its consumers in the past. It's not really a baseless accusation if they have done so much in the past to justify a second look. Had they been a stand up company or had I not known how they worked in FFXI then I would give them the benefit of doubt.

If you think me "perpetuating a sh*tty attitude towards SE" is nothing than I have no more to add to this.

Quote:
SE has bigger fish to fry...like not releasing a sh*t product in September because they've shortcutted the testing process.


I agree with this fully but would it really take them that much effort to relay information to the English speaking community? I don't think so.


They haven't always been day and date with new information to the non-Japanese media, but it's mattered little: We have several dedicated sites with excellent translators that have been making sure the relevant information has made its way to those looking. It's not like the Japanese knew about the staggered release before we did...



I think the point he was getting at is that he'd like to hear an official statement/release from SE stating definitively the specific reason or reasons for both the rush of the PC version and the delay as well of the PS3 version, and the decision to split the console releases.

We're all theorizing, but what he's saying (I believe) is that he'd like to know what the ACTUAL reason for it was. Can't say I wouldn't mind knowing myself, really. Beats guesswork.
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#111 Jul 05 2010 at 4:49 AM Rating: Decent
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They haven't always been day and date with new information to the non-Japanese media, but it's mattered little: We have several dedicated sites with excellent translators that have been making sure the relevant information has made its way to those looking. It's not like the Japanese knew about the staggered release before we did...


If this is true and I'm not saying it isn't, wouldn't that make the situation even worse? That's basically giving the middle finger to the entire fan base.

What Mikhalia said sums it up nicely. I just want more communication here, that's all I'm asking for. I don't think it's too much to ask for having been a fan of the series for so long.

A six month difference is a big deal to some of us when it wasn't expected. Don't say it was because if you were to ask anyone on the forums before the release date was announced whether or not the PC and PS3 version would share the same release date most, if not all, would tell you that they would. Granted they didn't say otherwise but that just brings us back to the root of the problem, lack of communication.

Edit: Also if it was expected you wouldn't have all these people crying a river over it.

Yes I know I'm one of them. blibber blibber



Edited, Jul 5th 2010 6:52am by CupDeNoodles
#112 Jul 05 2010 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

You don't need a parser to exploit class imbalances in the game. Everyone knew RNG was broken back in the day. I agree though there will be a lot of noobs running around. Those with previous MMO experience will haveless of a learning curve though. Prior to FFXI, I had no idea what most of the terms in game even meant. Kiting, wtf is that? Now that we live in the mainstream MMO universe(thanks WoW), I don't believe for a minute FFXIV will take that long to figure out. Six months isn't that bad compared to the 1+ year of the FFXI launch yet the PS3 users will be at a disadvantage regardless. The sky might not be falling, but it's an issue just the same.


You're still thinking in FFXI terms. In FFXI, you had one job and a handful of subjobs you could pair with it that made any sense. You still had people choosing extremely odd subjobs relative to their main job (and that certainly didn't cease at PS2 release) and that was under a relatively simple system. XIV's class system won't be so simple. Given that you can mix and match abilities from any class you want and put them onto another class, it's going to be months and months before people start hammering out min-max cookie cutter builds and even when they do, they'll be situational. There will be builds for solo play and builds for group play. And before anyone can come up with these OP cookie cutter builds, they're going to have to experiment...heavily...to actually prove to anyone beyond their immediate circle that it truly is "the best" because there will be no concrete (ie. parsed) evidence to back it up.

You have to remember...it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. In order for it to be labeled as all figured out, people have to experiment. That means they have to level the classes and then they have to put themselves in a position to test out the goodies. They have to learn how to play their prefered class on its own and then they have to level up other classes to yoink abilities from and experiment with those. It's not going to be a case of, "<X> class is clearly superior for <Y> role unless you choose a horrible subjob." It's more likely to be a case of, "<X> class gets even better when you equip <A>, <B>, and <C> abilities from classes <a>, <b>, and <c>."

Joe Average player, regardless of how many MMOs they've played before, isn't nearly so methodical. And the people who are inclined to approach it from that angle are going to have to learn an awful lot about each and every class and how everything goes together before they're going to be able to offer a definite "best" for anything.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 10:16am by Aurelius
#113 Jul 05 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:

You don't need a parser to exploit class imbalances in the game. Everyone knew RNG was broken back in the day. I agree though there will be a lot of noobs running around. Those with previous MMO experience will haveless of a learning curve though. Prior to FFXI, I had no idea what most of the terms in game even meant. Kiting, wtf is that? Now that we live in the mainstream MMO universe(thanks WoW), I don't believe for a minute FFXIV will take that long to figure out. Six months isn't that bad compared to the 1+ year of the FFXI launch yet the PS3 users will be at a disadvantage regardless. The sky might not be falling, but it's an issue just the same.


You're still thinking in FFXI terms. In FFXI, you had one job and a handful of subjobs you could pair with it that made any sense. You still had people choosing extremely odd subjobs relative to their main job (and that certainly didn't cease at PS2 release) and that was under a relatively simple system. XIV's class system won't be so simple. Given that you can mix and match abilities from any class you want and put them onto another class, it's going to be months and months before people start hammering out min-max cookie cutter builds and even when they do, they'll be situational. There will be builds for solo play and builds for group play. And before anyone can come up with these OP cookie cutter builds, they're going to have to experiment...heavily...to actually prove to anyone beyond their immediate circle that it truly is "the best" because there will be no concrete (ie. parsed) evidence to back it up.

You have to remember...it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. In order for it to be labeled as all figured out, people have to experiment. That means they have to level the classes and then they have to put themselves in a position to test out the goodies. They have to learn how to play their prefered class on its own and then they have to level up other classes to yoink abilities from and experiment with those. It's not going to be a case of, "<X> class is clearly superior for <Y> roll unless you choose a horrible subjob." It's more likely to be a case of, "<X> class gets even better when you equip <A>, <B>, and <C> abilities from classes <a>, <b>, and <c>."

Joe Average player, regardless of how many MMOs they've played before, isn't nearly so methodical. And the people who are inclined to approach it from that angle are going to have to learn an awful lot about each and every class and how everything goes together before they're going to be able to offer a definite "best" for anything.


This!!! I've been trying to hammer at this! Well put Sir. We can no longer assume a "one size fits all" mentality anymore. This is the reason why I don't see a real big handicap for anyone within a 6 month time-frame. The average person would play 2-3 hours, the average gamer person would play about 4-6 hours I'm thinking. At that rate it should take I'm guessing it should take about 1-3 days to get to level 10 maybe, if we're talking standard exp leveling terms, and possibly 3-6 days for level 20 which you SHOULD start to see the specifics of your build. But again this is using a model from FFXI, so at the minimum it should take this, and this is considering you're just grinding levels and not partaking in any story at all.

But I do agree with others that SE does have a knack for keeping us in the dark about some things. But then again coming from a business perspective I can understand their need for secrecy also.
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#114 Jul 05 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
CupDeNoodles wrote:
Quote:
They haven't always been day and date with new information to the non-Japanese media, but it's mattered little: We have several dedicated sites with excellent translators that have been making sure the relevant information has made its way to those looking. It's not like the Japanese knew about the staggered release before we did...


If this is true and I'm not saying it isn't, wouldn't that make the situation even worse? That's basically giving the middle finger to the entire fan base.

What Mikhalia said sums it up nicely. I just want more communication here, that's all I'm asking for. I don't think it's too much to ask for having been a fan of the series for so long.

A six month difference is a big deal to some of us when it wasn't expected. Don't say it was because if you were to ask anyone on the forums before the release date was announced whether or not the PC and PS3 version would share the same release date most, if not all, would tell you that they would. Granted they didn't say otherwise but that just brings us back to the root of the problem, lack of communication.

Edit: Also if it was expected you wouldn't have all these people crying a river over it.

Yes I know I'm one of them. blibber blibber


I don't disagree that more communication would be nice. If you've been poking around a bit here and there, you've already seen the Komoto is doing a far better job of communicating with the players who are actively involved in the game (ie. testers) than Tanaka/Sundi ever were.

On the other side of the coin, sooner or later you have to just buck up and accept reality: SE doesn't go into detail about things that they know will only disappoint their players (or potential players). They never say no, they never talk about the problems they're having. They either have a solution and they tell people about it when they implement it or they don't. The biggest issue with SE as it pertained to FFXI isn't that they didn't communicate well enough, it was that they took too **** long to come up with the solutions the playerbase was looking for. (This looks like it might be different with Komoto handling that end of things, but only time will tell.)

The point is, we know SE. We know how they operate. And more importantly, telling people WHY the PS3 version has been delayed isn't going to make it ship any faster. So ya, you can be ****** off for the next 6 months if you really think that's going to help or you can just take the information you DO have, accept it, and move on. It's your life, your anxiety...your choice.
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