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FFXIV: Already unable to compete with years old competitionFollow

#52 Jul 04 2010 at 12:24 AM Rating: Good
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So now SE just needs to have their own Cash Shop for us to buy gil legally. yay~ (joke, joke)

though, in all honesty i foresee more people spending the dollar on a fleet of minion retainers than on characters themselves. Ofcourse, SE could simply be capitalizing on the people that always have the max amount of characters for when events happen, they can sell the event items for lots of money (Easter event anyone?) and for the XIV bonanza type thing.

Edited, Jul 4th 2010 2:25am by Naeo
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#53 Jul 04 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Decent
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

I dunno. SE has been pretty straightforward about not doing RMT type sales for in game things. I could dredge up an interview or two, but we've all read them.

Then again.... this whole $3 fee and the $1 for retainers is a step in that direction... so who knows.


Two words: Crysta Currency. SE is very much on the micro-transaction bandwagon this time around, and they've explicitly said as much.
#54 Jul 04 2010 at 1:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Something I loved about XI was being able to do everything on one character. You could try a new class and still have the same overall advancement, rank, gil, etc.

In other MMOs you have to send your alts cash, go through storyline and other quests again, etc. That's simply a timesink and games like WoW or LOTRO where it's really fast and easy to level and there's almost no "barriers" in the gameplay like the choco quest, genkai, subjob quest, etc. you have to have alts for timesinks.

XIV going in the direction of "one character can do everything" is actually very encouraging to me because there has to be enough content to support that one character.

Edited, Jul 4th 2010 3:42am by Aleandra
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#55 Jul 04 2010 at 3:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
IDGAF


Quote:
Well said.
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#56 Jul 04 2010 at 3:41 AM Rating: Default
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dyvidd wrote:
Well other MMO's don't allow you to change different job on the same character and require you to make different more toons if you want to play another job. This shouldn't be much of a shock if you are famaliar with SE's other MMO, FFXI. I for one hated created characters that looked the same with a different twist on the name to try another class.


Wait, what?

FFXI allows you to change jobs on the same character.
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#57 Jul 04 2010 at 3:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
n other MMOs you have to send your alts cash, go through storyline and other quests again, etc. That's simply a timesink and games like WoW or LOTRO where it's really fast and easy to level and there's almost no "barriers" in the gameplay like the choco quest, genkai, subjob quest, etc. you have to have alts for timesinks.


Are you saying that FFXI was less of a time sync because you did everything on one character?
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#58 Jul 04 2010 at 3:44 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

SE is very much on the micro-transaction bandwagon this time around, and they've explicitly said as much.



Aaaaand I just lost any interest I might have had in FFXIV.



Edited, Jul 4th 2010 6:45am by Lobivopis
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#59 Jul 04 2010 at 4:21 AM Rating: Decent
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While the new pricing kinds irked me,, I am glad SE are doing it this way again.

Since FFXI, I just haven't been able to 'connect' to any of my characters the way I did with my FFXI Hume. I think the way FF lets you level up more than one 'job' on one character makes it unique. The more levels you knotch up on that said character, the more your character has accomplished and the more valuable they become. Unlike other games, where you can have many characters and have to log in and out to be able to experience a different class. It makes them - to me anyway - seem more disposable.

I'm looking forward to developing my girl again. Me and her will be together for a long time to come.
#60 Jul 04 2010 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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While I do still think $3 per extra character is absurd, and expect to hear people complaining about it for the entire lifespan of the game (or until SE changes it, if they did), I personally prefer to stick to one and only one character in an MMORPG unless the game forces me to make a new one to be a new class (which most do).

In single player games, I'm much the same; I'll only make new characters so that I can play the game from a different viewpoint. Try the game again as a different class and give my character a different personality. for example in Dragon Age, I picked a City Elf Rogue and there are some character choices I made along the lines of which character to pursue a romance with, taking certain plot choices, etc. The next time through will likely be a Dwarf/Human Warrior or a Human Mage and next time I plan to side with the werewolves instead of the Dalish Elves and instead of bringing the Mages to Redcliffe, probably just kill Connor. That sort of thing.

Don't get me wrong, I love a game where character choice influences character development, and I usually play the game through more than once to see the results of my actions if I had chose differently. But in a game where there are no "wrong" choices and one character is able to do anything, I'll just stick with one character. I find it easier than making people play the "Oh, that's X's alt/main" game. It was especially bad in WoW where I had all 10 character slots with active characters (I only listed 3 in my sig, but I had several more that I spent plenty of time on) and usually ended up with no more than two to a single guild so I didn't have to worry about being one of those people who takes up 10 slots of a "200-300 member" guild with "X's alt" in the guild notes next to 80% of em.
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#61 Jul 04 2010 at 5:00 AM Rating: Decent
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GuardianFaith wrote:
Are you saying that FFXI was less of a time sync because you did everything on one character?


I don't know if this is what they think, but here's what I think about that...

The accomplishments you achieve in XI feel more rewarding and the story is more fleshed out with depth. The Devs are forced to make a tight experience when you are encouraged not to make alts. In a game with alts you have to balance the early areas of the game so they don't feel like a drawn out tutorial. XI had the benefit of single avatar with every option available, and they used it IMO to make a tutorial (levels 1-30ish) that only feels like a tutorial until you get to level 10ish on your first job. Every other job you more or less rush through and quickly learn your new role.

In other MMOs when I try to get a different perspective with a different alt, it's starting from scratch. In a reskinned city, with the same dialouge slightly twisted. More or less for me those games aren't fun. In XI when you start a new job, you don't feel like you're starting over. I'm happy XIV is more or less sticking with that.
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#62 Jul 04 2010 at 5:09 AM Rating: Default
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It makes no difference to me I'll be playing all my jobs on the same character just like I did ff11. Hopefully there is more storage space this time is all.
It was almost an impossibility in ff11 to use more then one character for anything but mules or to run low level specific quests for 1 off rewards .
Stop crying, the sky isnt falling . This isnt wow , you wont want, have or need more then 1 alt .
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#63 Jul 04 2010 at 5:53 AM Rating: Default
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:

I dunno. SE has been pretty straightforward about not doing RMT type sales for in game things. I could dredge up an interview or two, but we've all read them.

Then again.... this whole $3 fee and the $1 for retainers is a step in that direction... so who knows.


Two words: Crysta Currency. SE is very much on the micro-transaction bandwagon this time around, and they've explicitly said as much.


I found this in an article on FFXIVcore
Quote:
Fees are payable by both Crysta currency and credit card.

That's a little different than a cash shop. It's a little bit more associative to How Eve lets you purchase more game time with in game money. I know it's still early, but i hope this is as far as it goes.

/on topic

I look at it like this. New character slots in FFXIV are worth more than they were in FFXI. You can do more on your main, therefore you can do more on an alt. It's really simple economics here.
#64 Jul 04 2010 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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The main reason people only kept one character on XI was born more out of necessity than anything else. A lot of the progression was very difficult to accomplish without a steady group of other people, and so folks stuck to one character. I remember an interview in which one of the SE developers expressed shock that players weren't *raising more than one character*. That indicates to me that SE thought that people would try on different races for different jobs.

I mean, why else make certain races better at certain jobs?

I have mixed feelings about it. While I agree that being able to do everything on one character is a very nice thing - at some point I wanted to specialize my hume in XI in magic and raise a second character for melee. I didn't figure this out until probably a year into my gaming experience. This wasn't practical because of the nature of XI and needing to go through so much progression again (Not leveling, opening areas like Sky and Sea), so my Elvaan never made it into existence and instead my hume is mediocre at all jobs and struggling with inventory space.

I don't really see reputation as being a driving factor behind anything, either. Sure in WoW you can be a jerk and then hide on an alt, but those people weed themselves out of the good guilds anyway. In fact, people take their reputation seriously enough that they often will use the same prefix for the names of all their alts so that their friends can recognize them.

I'm not saying WoW is doing it better, but I am saying that they aren't necessarily doing it wrong, either. That's the feeling I'm getting from some of the posts in this thread - having the opportunity to try out more than one race\specialization is somehow inherently wrong and people *should* be limited to one character.


Also -
TaruScud wrote:

I hate playing WOW and not being able to keep my same character between different jobs. I Personally get attached to an avater: all the story quests ive been through, achievements, friends that know me by name and in game face. I truthfully don't care if i cant make a second character. There will probably be a race changer add-on sooner or later like there was in ffxi anyway.


What?
#65 Jul 04 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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For me, personally, I'd prefer to stick with a single character that can do a little bit of everything. I played a hume in FFXI so that I could be well rounded and capable with any job. I think that the Armory System is going to encourage players to stick with a single character, just as the job/subjob system did, and I'm fine with that. I have 9 characters in WoW and I only had the time to play one of them seriously and 2 of them occasionally enough to matter. If I could have played one character who could swap to any class, I'd have been far happier.

So the extra surcharge for characters in FFXIV doesn't bother me at all, as long as I can have enough storage space that I don't need to employ mule characters as I was occasionally forced to do in FFXI. 12.99 a month is a freaking STEAL. I don't know what to tell those who want to play multiple characters just because that's some thing they enjoy. Obviously FFXIV is not being marketed or designed with those players in mind, which is a shame.
#66 Jul 04 2010 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
Tenfooterten wrote:

That's a little different than a cash shop. It's a little bit more associative to How Eve lets you purchase more game time with in game money. I know it's still early, but i hope this is as far as it goes.

/on topic

I look at it like this. New character slots in FFXIV are worth more than they were in FFXI. You can do more on your main, therefore you can do more on an alt. It's really simple economics here.


Crysta Currency is SE's equivalent to Bioware points or other similar cash shop "currencies" that you buy with real money and can then apply to other game related purchases (ie. DLC). There was an interview where Wada said explicitly that SE was going with a cash shop model.
#67 Jul 04 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Default
The whole cash shop debate has been presented for the most part. I guess i'm indifferent to it. As long as you can't buy anything that puts you at an advantage, i'm ok with it. If someone wants to pay real money for eye candy, then so be it.
#68 Jul 04 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree that 3 bucks a month is steep for an extra playable character. 1 dollar for extra invetory space aka "Mule" isn't so bad. Having a retainer that stays ingame to hawk your goods is probably cheaper than leaving your PC or PS3 on for 24/7, or any length of extended time. Plus you get 1 free retainer in your 12.99 sub fee. (cheaper than standard fees mind you)

A lot of people are used to playing games like an above poster stated, where certain races are allowed to only play certain classes. THis led to people playing so many differnt characters for me it was hard to keep track of who was who. I'd wonder why i haven't seen my friend online in a week or two, well thats because they are playing a new alt. I like the fact that FFXI had you play mainly 1 character. I'm a firm believer that this helped foster a great community and respect between players. I'm not saying everyone was a saint in FFXI there were plenty of players that once experiencing their oh so pleasant company, i'd rather avoid them when possible. This reputation you had to uphold because you were attached to 1 character, not hiding your persona on multiple avatars. This is my hope for FFXIV, if that means paying an extra $3 for that extra playable character to help avoid people being complete A-holes in teh game I'm all for it.
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#69 Jul 04 2010 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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I think a good compromise would be the ability to re-roll your character's race for a one time for fee. That way people who really don't like the race they picked can have the option to change to something else.
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#70 Jul 04 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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Lets look at it this way.

90% of the alts were level 1 mules for storage or just high enough to do high payout quests.

That alt cost you $1.

SE is looking at making alts used for the purpose of storage to cost less than $1, as well as offering the game for a couple bucks less than any other MMO, AS WELL AS giving you 1 free mule with your main character.

They have taken the idea of a mule and made it a part of the game, and in so doing they solved **** tons of issues that plague other games. Aion, for example, had botters that would sit on a server and take up a slot in the limited slots on the server to sell things. At one point it was out of control with 50% of the server being bots trying to sell things. Now they just kick any player that doesn't move x distance within 5 minutes or something.

Now with XIV you'll get your own shop keeper and item storage all in one.


The other use for having multiple characters was to have family or friends play with you. If SE is addressing the first issue with the retainer, lets see if they address the second issue with family playing together by making more than 1 character able to log in on one account at the same time. This may even be an issue causing delays with systems like the PS3.

It's not likely, but lets not ***** until we know everything, shall we?
#71piglato, Posted: Jul 04 2010 at 10:08 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Lets just make ff14 into wow 2.0 with final fantasy skins.
#72 Jul 04 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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MetalSmith wrote:
The other use for having multiple characters was to have family or friends play with you. If SE is addressing the first issue with the retainer, lets see if they address the second issue with family playing together by making more than 1 character able to log in on one account at the same time.


I very strongly doubt we'll see this. Can't predict the future, but from a money making standpoint (and if they're charging $3 per each extra character, one can't say they aren't concerned with money, if not overly so), you gotta think they're going to want people to buy multiple copies of the game and pay $12.99 a pop if you want to play together.

Most people concerned about the $3 fee are those who prefer multiple characters for aesthetic or role play purposes.
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#73 Jul 04 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
MetalSmith wrote:
The other use for having multiple characters was to have family or friends play with you. If SE is addressing the first issue with the retainer, lets see if they address the second issue with family playing together by making more than 1 character able to log in on one account at the same time.


I very strongly doubt we'll see this. Can't predict the future, but from a money making standpoint (and if they're charging $3 per each extra character, one can't say they aren't concerned with money, if not overly so), you gotta think they're going to want people to buy multiple copies of the game and pay $12.99 a pop if you want to play together.

Most people concerned about the $3 fee are those who prefer multiple characters for aesthetic or role play purposes.


Letting multiple people log in from one account is totally unrealistic in a mmo don't ever get your hope up for this. This is a horrible thing just like being able to transfer characters from one account to another because people would just abuse/exploit that.
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#74 Jul 04 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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People that abuse or exploit having 2 characters on at once are usually cheap. Cheap players generally don't like to spend too much money.

Also, to do this, you would either need 2 PC's capable of running the game or a PC and PS3. both represent a significant investment into playing the game, and people that are willing to invest that much will already do this above to play with others or play with 2 characters by themselves.

I'm not saying I hope to see this or that it is a good idea per say, but taking a look at how many people play FFXI, this is actually probably the best way to keep people playing, allowing more than 1 character per account to be logged in at once that is.

Again, I don't expect this, but neither did I expect a free mule.
#75 Jul 04 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
People that abuse or exploit having 2 characters on at once are usually cheap. Cheap players generally don't like to spend too much money.

Also, to do this, you would either need 2 PC's capable of running the game or a PC and PS3. both represent a significant investment into playing the game, and people that are willing to invest that much will already do this above to play with others or play with 2 characters by themselves.

I'm not saying I hope to see this or that it is a good idea per say, but taking a look at how many people play FFXI, this is actually probably the best way to keep people playing, allowing more than 1 character per account to be logged in at once that is.

Again, I don't expect this, but neither did I expect a free mule.


You forget people been having ps3s for a very long time, not everybody just brought one to play FFXIV. Socom being exclusive was a huge seller for ps3, and so was things like Infamous and Kill Zone. If you give people the opportunity to do something like this you would just be shooting yourself in the foot. People and I mean huge groups of people will exploit it. Why pay 13 dollars when you can pay 3 dollars to play on somebody else account.
#76 Jul 05 2010 at 7:50 AM Rating: Default
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I'll be dual boxing FFXIV and getting my 2 shares of loot, as well as PLing myself to max everything out before the first raise of the level cap :)
#77 Jul 05 2010 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
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TaruScud wrote:
There will probably be a race changer add-on sooner or later like there was in ffxi anyway.


FFXI doesn't allow race changes.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#78 Jul 05 2010 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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I think he may be referring to the windower plugin.
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#79 Jul 05 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
Since people have...yet again...taken to karma bombing me for telling them what they obviously don't want to hear, allow me to educate you. This is what Wada said with regards to micro-transactions:

Quote:
“The basic model hasn't changed,” he said. “It's a monthly flat rate service with additional charges for items that users want to buy.

“For FFXI we didn't initially set up the item transaction model that well – although the demand for it was high. We thought that it would be a benefit for users, but that we wouldn't be able to charge.

“We soon learnt that there are a lot of people who want that kind of model, so we would like to introduce more pay-as-you-use items into the game. But there were too few items in FFXI – however we don't want to take it to the other extreme entirely for FFXIV.


Source.

Now behave.
#80 Jul 05 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Excellent
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Since people have...yet again...taken to karma bombing me for telling them what they obviously don't want to hear, allow me to educate you. This is what Wada said with regards to micro-transactions:

Quote:
“The basic model hasn't changed,” he said. “It's a monthly flat rate service with additional charges for items that users want to buy.

“For FFXI we didn't initially set up the item transaction model that well – although the demand for it was high. We thought that it would be a benefit for users, but that we wouldn't be able to charge.

“We soon learnt that there are a lot of people who want that kind of model, so we would like to introduce more pay-as-you-use items into the game. But there were too few items in FFXI – however we don't want to take it to the other extreme entirely for FFXIV.


Source.

Now behave.


I think why people (myself included) are a little unsure, Aur, is that SE has also come right out and said just the opposite.

Quote:
Billing Systems and Item Selling

There was a brief mention of billing practices at E3, and the interviewer tries to press Tanaka for more information. He states they wish to use an "Anniversary Billing" system, which means players will pay a certain amount of money to play for a period of time. In other words, X dollars a month, like in Final Fantasy XI; or X dollars for 30 days, which Tanaka expressed interest in at E3. As always, the developers oppose the use of micro-transactions to make items sellable. They feel by allowing players to purchase everything they want, they would rack up larger bills, but quit the game faster for lack of anything to strive for. The developers would rather players find lasting enjoyment in the game itself, instead of make a mad dash for treasure and quit soon after.

However, Sundi interjects saying not to rule out optional services altogether. For example, they may want to add server transfers or other options for players to purchase. There is no elaboration on what else they have in mind, but they will be considering what to offer.


Source

Kinda begs the question... what'choo talkin' 'bout, SE?

Now, it does say they're considering optional services for purchase. Server transfers and the like. And that they're still considering what else to offer, but the spirit of this part of the interview is clear. No items for cash. So again, I really have to wonder what's actually going on in SE's mind. This interview was of Tanaka and Sundi btw.

ps rated your posts back up, I despise karma carpetbombing.
#81 Jul 05 2010 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Are you saying that FFXI was less of a time sync because you did everything on one character?


No I'm definitely not saying that! I'm saying the opposite - with one character able to play every class, there has to be more content and/or timesinks to support that character.

In other words, in most modern MMOs if you have three alts you need to do the same content three times. In FFXI and presumably FFXIV, you only need to do things once for all classes. In other words, once you've done the choco quest once, you're done forever. However, each WoW toon needs to progress up the mount ladder individually.

I really like the FFXI/FFXIV model more than the "alt" model - but I can also see where other people are coming from.
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#82 Jul 05 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Since people have...yet again...taken to karma bombing me for telling them what they obviously don't want to hear, allow me to educate you. This is what Wada said with regards to micro-transactions:

Quote:
“The basic model hasn't changed,” he said. “It's a monthly flat rate service with additional charges for items that users want to buy.

“For FFXI we didn't initially set up the item transaction model that well – although the demand for it was high. We thought that it would be a benefit for users, but that we wouldn't be able to charge.

“We soon learnt that there are a lot of people who want that kind of model, so we would like to introduce more pay-as-you-use items into the game. But there were too few items in FFXI – however we don't want to take it to the other extreme entirely for FFXIV.


Source.

Now behave.


I think why people (myself included) are a little unsure, Aur, is that SE has also come right out and said just the opposite.

Quote:
Billing Systems and Item Selling

There was a brief mention of billing practices at E3, and the interviewer tries to press Tanaka for more information. He states they wish to use an "Anniversary Billing" system, which means players will pay a certain amount of money to play for a period of time. In other words, X dollars a month, like in Final Fantasy XI; or X dollars for 30 days, which Tanaka expressed interest in at E3. As always, the developers oppose the use of micro-transactions to make items sellable. They feel by allowing players to purchase everything they want, they would rack up larger bills, but quit the game faster for lack of anything to strive for. The developers would rather players find lasting enjoyment in the game itself, instead of make a mad dash for treasure and quit soon after.

However, Sundi interjects saying not to rule out optional services altogether. For example, they may want to add server transfers or other options for players to purchase. There is no elaboration on what else they have in mind, but they will be considering what to offer.


Source

Kinda begs the question... what'choo talkin' 'bout, SE?

Now, it does say they're considering optional services for purchase. Server transfers and the like. And that they're still considering what else to offer, but the spirit of this part of the interview is clear. No items for cash. So again, I really have to wonder what's actually going on in SE's mind. This interview was of Tanaka and Sundi btw.


It's becoming apparent that Wada has a certain amount of say in how things are done. Also, there are different categories of micro-transaction purchases. There are the "service" related purchases (ie. server transfers, race changes, etc.) and then there are item purchases. That's where I think people get confused. It doesn't necessarily mean permanent items (ie. gear). It can be fluff items (ie. pets, furniture, cosmetic clothing, etc.) or it could be consumables (ie. potions the likes of which you'd expect in the game or things like buff items that grant a bonus to skillups/xp for a period of time).

Some MMO (Age of Conan appears to be one of them) offers everything from xp bonus consumables to gear (although having not played the game for long enough to do more than stare at my tits and reach the trial level cap, I can't say how good that gear is). On the other side of the coin are companies like Blizzard that limit micro-transactions to fluff items (pets and mounts). The way Wada is talking, consumable items (pay as you use) are a distinct possibility. To read what Tanaka and Sundi are saying, it won't extend to gear.

Point being, we know that there's at least one (very influential) person at SE pussing for micro-transactions which largely trumps the arguments that they won't be present. Wada was explicit. Tanaka and Sundi were their usual vague selves.
#83 Jul 06 2010 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Male Miqote's will be a playable race during the first expansion and SE is going to make a lot more money.. And this will all make sense!!
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#84 Jul 06 2010 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
I still don't think we're going to see MT for armor/weapons/other such loot, but I guess time will tell.

I actually would be fine with fluff items and basic services. EQ2 does what you're describing with AoC. It was mostly fluff items, but they also had class/name/race/*** change potions for sale. Kinda crazy. They also had exp/crafting exp bonus potions. Those... I could do without in XIV.
#85 Jul 06 2010 at 1:09 AM Rating: Good
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Almalexia wrote:
Quote:
One of my favorite things to do

One of my favorite things to do is make one powerful, effective character instead of fucking around with a bunch of half-baked disappointments.

You sound like you're afraid of success. You probably shouldn't play an MMO.


One of my favorite things is to create an alt, go in with weak *** gear, and show people like you how to play.

Fact: Not everyone that dabbles in alts are terrible.

As far as the whole 3 bucks a month thing, it's gouging, pure and simple. Square-Enix fanbois are simply using the "We have a job system, the other MMOs don't" to justify the price jacking. There's absolutely zero reason at all to charge for another character beyond a pre-determined limit with the exception of you just want money. Server space? Get @#%^ing real, son.

And as far as the inventory (starting) is concerned, that's already too small. Even in FFXI, where mobs were stingy as **** with drops, you accumulated a ton of crap just going out and doing things -- much less if you actually set out to farm. 80 slots is nice, but ultimately still very tiny. Plus, going back to the whole archaic "list" format is cringe worthy. As much as I didn't like the game, EQ2 had inventory management down pat as far as I'm concerned and other MMOs *should* have copied that format (or at least done a variation).

Tenfooterten wrote:
The whole cash shop debate has been presented for the most part. I guess i'm indifferent to it. As long as you can't buy anything that puts you at an advantage, i'm ok with it. If someone wants to pay real money for eye candy, then so be it.


Every MMO that goes this model says that. And it always ends up where gear and/or in-game items that DO make a difference are sold in the game. Blizzard hasn't yet, but with people paying millions within half an hour for a vanity item, you can guarrantee that eventually something big will be offered in the Blizzard store. In the end, it's the money that matters, not really people's reactions to it.

I know LoTRO is going with the F2P model soon, as DDO did. And I also know that Turbine stated the exact same sentiments, yet now in DDO there's apparently huge buffs to the guild bonuses you can receive that can *only* be gotten from the store.

"Oh, you guys need more inventory space? Well, you guys almost all have authenticator tokens, so how about you buy this nice plastic model of XYZ endboss and we'll let you double your carrying inventory -- only 35 USD!"

You can laugh, and scoff, but people are stupid enough to pay for it.


Edited, Jul 6th 2010 3:19am by StrijderVechter
#86 Jul 06 2010 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
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In other MMOs when I try to get a different perspective with a different alt, it's starting from scratch. In a reskinned city, with the same dialouge slightly twisted.



That is what I like about using a single character. Making an alt and doing all the kill 10 mob quests, that usually have very little entertainment value in the story of the quest, more than once or twice gets old fast. However, if the dialogue for the quest is good, I don't have an issue. I always like a good story.

I'll probably only use one character unless I want to experience the beginnings for each city, which is a distinct possibility.


*edit* split into two posts due to subject difference.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 3:31am by Nalamwen
#87 Jul 06 2010 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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There is a game called Perfect World that is F2P and pretty much ran completely off cash shop items. You can play the game without cashing in, but you are at a very substantial disadvantage. I myself don't buy in, but many people do. I see people talking about how they spend hundreds of dollars a month on just consumable items.

There are ways to buy levels w/o doing much at all. There is an item you can buy that would allow you to cap w/o ever leaving town if you wanted to spend an insane amount. Items that increase xp per kill by 1.5% for one hour. Items that increase xp per kill from between 2x to 12x for a limited amount of time, but these you can turn off and on at will. I've been playing on my current server for around a year and I'm level 89. There are some people that got to 102(cap is 105 but people rarely go higher than 102) in as little as 3 weeks.

You can buy endgame gear(they come in packs that have a random item/s but you can get gear if you're lucky).

This game is pretty much solely played for pvp so people being able to buy levels and gear is a **** big deal. It wasn't always that way. Until about 7 months ago you couldn't really buy your levels or your gear, so the people cashing in didn't progress any faster than those of us that don't. Now we're plagued by high level morons that don't know what they're doing.

It also means that the factions(guilds/linkshells) that have the biggest cash shoppers are dominant and control the server because the server still is pretty new. I say it's still new at around the 1 year mark because, before you could buy level/gear it would take a little over a year of daily play to get to endgame (lvl 100) let alone get any of the endgame gear.

The only reason I spend any time at all on this game is because it's free to me. I'm really just killing time until FFXIV hits.

I know that, usually, mentioning something like this is pretty unpopular here. I'm just using it as an example as to how drastically a cash-shop can control a game if it's poorly implemented.

I am definitely not a fan of progress effecting cash shops. Fluff is ok. I mean, some sort of cash shop is obviously going to be in the game. I don't really like it, even just fluff, but I can accept it if the game is still enjoyable. It's not like I have a choice in the matter if I want to play the game. But, I don't consider a mount to be fluff unless it's purely cosmetic. It is past my limit of acceptance if that mount is any faster than what can be found/earned in-game.

This is probably one of the most controversial subjects we have to talk about. The problem is that we really don't know what to say or think yet because they haven't given us anything to ponder. All we have right now is an instinctual "OMG no way, please SE don't do this to me", or some sort of reluctant acceptance. I'm withholding judgment for now, but this could very well be a game breaker for me.
#88 Jul 06 2010 at 6:26 AM Rating: Good
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I've been torn on the presence of mules in XI. Functionally, more storage is important, particularly with what limited inventory we had in XI. However, mules also had greater power than they probably should in the economy if you pumped enough gil into them, or until more recently, actual RL cash for gardening mules.

Retainers basically being storage and AH slot equivalents for $1/mo somewhat alleviates that fear, but I still worry about those with more RL money than sense being able to buy economic advantages over those who can't in paying $3 per alt that they then up the miscellaneous crafts on. On this end, SE also need to add additional snares like progress being tied to levels, mission/quest progression, and so on. Basically, if you want to benefit from that character, you actually have to PLAY it and not just feed it some start-up money, click a few buttons, and eventually be a thorn in the side of those who were struggling to get by with their mains. And such would need to be maintained in later updates to remain competitive.

Even with the above, I'm sure there'd still be no-lifers who manage to exploit the system. Just need to be careful that trying to keep them in check doesn't hurt those with more limited play time. I think it can be done, but a more careful eye on exploits also needs to be present from the start, punishing in the event of glitches like the Salvage duping.
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#89 Jul 06 2010 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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Well - this is where we really tread on dangerous waters. What kind of exploits are we really expecting from those who can have more than one retainer? It will depend on the design of SE's system, to be honest. If SE limits retainers to small areas, then yes there will be a huge problem. Regions? Still could see an issue. Global? Eliminates the need to have multiple retainers to exploit anything, but I doubt this is what they have in mind.

As far as multiple characters, it's no worse than what we see in XI now. People have *crafting mules* and I don't really see that big an issue with folks being able to supply needed items that are craft only. Maybe SE will make the game less dependent on crafted goods as a whole though, and it will be more of a personal character development thing like it is in WoW. I'd prefer it that way, actually.

Still, the whole system doesn't even seem to make any sense to me. *Why* do we need a separate character to sell our goods? Are we all royalty now? What did they think was so flawed about the AH that they needed to add a different system? Was it just because they didn't want it to resemble XI and felt this was a safe place to break away?

Really, so much of what they are doing with XIV just makes 0 sense to me. I would prefer an AH, globally linked unlike what they did with XI, and no limit on selling slots. Is that really so much to ask? Do they really need to over complicate things?

Just... wow.



Edited, Jul 6th 2010 9:24am by Torrence
#90 Jul 06 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Decent
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I have this bad habit of justifying spending based on how many hours of work it takes to earn the money. Since we all work different jobs I'm going to use $6/hr which is probably the absolute minimum anyone is going to make. $3 a month will end up being $36 extra a year. That's 6 hours of work at the worst paying job possible. So 6 hours of work per year to have an extra character. Obviously anyone would rather pay $0 per year, but whenever I break it down like this I can't really complain.
#91 Jul 06 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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The one aspect I loved most about FF11 was that you were able to do everything and try all classes with only one character. That's how a MMO is meant to be played.
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#92 Jul 06 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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$3 is steep, I dont think there will be many people paying more then the $12.95.
#93 Jul 06 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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Problem with mule/alts in FFXI is each character/content ID could be turned into a money making machine whether it was even played or not. There were plenty of people who had 2, 3 or more accounts with a full array of characters simply for gardening. The were also used for things like scroll quests. I've heard too many times of people financing their relic weapons with this, never mind the abuse RMT put it too. I could see complaining about the price tag if you couldn't do everything in the game on one character, but I like the fact they are trying to keep you concentrated on having a single identity. Character systems like WoW pretty much REQUIRE alts because certain races can't play certain jobs, you can only level one class per character, plus you have the whole Horde vs Alliance issue. It's not like SE isn't even giving you the option of having alt characters, they are just trying to discourage it by charging 3 bucks. Now, only people who are actually serious about leveling and playing their alt characters with bother to make them, or people who have nothing better to do with their money.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 2:13pm by Harri
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#94 Jul 06 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:

Really, so much of what they are doing with XIV just makes 0 sense to me. I would prefer an AH, globally linked unlike what they did with XI, and no limit on selling slots. Is that really so much to ask? Do they really need to over complicate things?


The free retainer sounds to me as if it acts as your AH slots. If you want to double your AH slots you buy a second retainer. That's how I picture it acting any way.
#95 Jul 06 2010 at 3:05 PM Rating: Default
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The free retainer sounds to me as if it acts as your AH slots. If you want to double your AH slots you buy a second retainer. That's how I picture it acting any way.
If thats the case then they are going to **** in a lot of peoples Cheerios. **** if I am paying $3.00 extra per character, thats is absurd! If you make a mule in every city thats a extra $9 per month! $22 a month to play a MMORPG I will pass!
#96 Jul 06 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If thats the case then they are going to **** in a lot of peoples Cheerios. @#%^ if I am paying $3.00 extra per character, thats is absurd! If you make a mule in every city thats a extra $9 per month!


Retainers are only +$1.00 a month. You don't need a new character to get an additional retainer. An additional character does come with a free retainer though.

Quote:
$22 a month to play a MMORPG I will pass!


I think it is pretty clear that its $12.95 at the moment. The additional money you are suggesting is not in any way a requirement to play the game. Those are alts that you feel are requirements of playing the game. I never had a single alt in FFXI and never needed one.

I think people are blowing this way out of proportion. $3.00 includes the $1.00 retainer. Essentially you are paying $2.00 for the character, and $1.00 for the retainer that comes with that character. If you just want the retainer (Which I believe was the main reason for alts in FFXI in the first place) just pay the $1.00 for the retainer, same price as FFXI.
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#97 Jul 06 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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I can see some merit in player character price, at least in relation to the retainers. Having an open bazaar without being logged on is definitely handy, but it seems like it'll only make busting gil-sellers all the more difficult. The last thing I want for FFXIV is the "too little, too late" response to RMT that we got in FFXI.
#98xthunderblazex, Posted: Jul 06 2010 at 3:22 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) 3 dollars does not include the retainer. You are only entitled to ONE free retainer. After that you need to purchase more, even if you buy another character.
#99 Jul 06 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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Only reason to have more than 1 character = you're sharing an account.


....or if you want to play with friends on another server

you want to play a different race

they restrict the number of crafts per character and you want to craft more...
#100xthunderblazex, Posted: Jul 06 2010 at 3:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If they were your friends, they would've played on your server.
#101 Jul 06 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
xthunderblazex wrote:
You can level all crafts to max on one character this time around.


Don't count on it. SE said long ago that they would likely go with the teeter-totter approach to crafting disciplines this time around like they did in XI. ie. You can level on profession to cap and you can level all other professions but not as high. What we get at release is yet to be seen, but you'd do well to not go around stating things as fact that SE has said won't be so.
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