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Could releasing FFXIV on PS3 in March backfire in SE face?Follow

#1 Jul 05 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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You know it and I know it, it happens with every new MMORPG. A ton of people buy the game at launch and maybe 50% of the player base is left by 90 days after release. Could releasing FFXIV on PS3 in March backfire in SE's face? There are a lot of me too's out there. Their friend dosent like the game and before they even play the game they dont like it as well, with out ever giving the game a chance.

I havent played FFXIV yet but SE is going to have to have something really magical to pull players away from WOW. The question is do they have what it takes? Or are they making a huge gamble not releasing PS3 and PC at the same time?
#2 Jul 05 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Default
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WoW isn't a great game. It's a crappy game. Lots of people are frustrated with it, and are looking for something new. I know lots of WoW players who are eager to leave for FFXIV.


Edit: TBH, would be great of a lot of people leave sooner, all the crybabies are gone, and leaves the real players.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 5:47pm by xthunderblazex
#3 Jul 05 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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WoW is frustrating because this is the end of an expansion, the average player has no reason to even log in anymore. Everything is out on the table and obsolete by the end of this year. This is where it gets interesting. Blizzard *always* tries to release an expansion hot on the heels of another MMO's release. This is to steal steam away from the new MMO, because the beginning of a new expansion is usually pretty fun. However, there isn't just FF14 on the horizon. I haven't been tracking it, since i'm not a sci-fi buff, but the Star Wars MMO from Bioware is also something to seriously consider, and Blizzard's release of Cataclysm relative to FF14 & Star Wars will be an interesting take to who the company sees as a bigger threat, and of interest to us, because it alludes to perhaps the entertainment value that either game might present to us, the consumers.
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#4 Jul 05 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Cataclysm will be the same thing as wrath though, same endgame setup of Raids, Heroics, Dailies, nothing that is truly new, and it gets old quick.

People will still be yelling at others to stop standing in fire.
#5 Jul 05 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Default
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xthunderblazex wrote:
WoW isn't a great game. It's a crappy game. Lots of people are frustrated with it, and are looking for something new. I know lots of WoW players who are eager to leave for FFXIV.


Edit: TBH, would be great of a lot of people leave sooner, all the crybabies are gone, and leaves the real players.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 5:47pm by xthunderblazex


...so you're saying you want all the crybabies to leave WoW and play FFXIV? No thanks. We don't want em. Let the bads go play single player games and leave them off the internet entirely please.

As I've said before; I couldn't care less how many people leave another game for this one. The problem with attracting a player from another MMORPG to a new one (and we must admit, we're -all- slightly biased in this manner) is that there are certain things they have liked or disliked about the games they have played in the past and they inherently "expect" certain aspects. They played a game which had feature A, B, C, which they liked, so they will likely complain if the new game doesn't have A, B, or C.

The early days of an MMORPG that tries to pull in players from another game is especially tumultuous; it is usually laden with people trying to enjoy the game who keep having to hear other people complain about it.

Allods was a good example; it was a pretty decent F2P WoW clone, that looked a lot like WoW but with a much higher difficulty from the start. General chat was PLAGUED with people who wouldn't shut up about how they liked WoW better, how WoW has X, how WoW has Y... I was putting someone on my ignore list every 5-10 minutes it seemed.

There are a lot of people who play WoW, and some of them are genuinely nice, genuinely helpful, genuinely sane people and I'd be happy to play any MMORPG with them. But the types that I've mentioned in the past paragraph are pretty bad.

Even DDO has its occasional WoW fanboy who starts spouting crap in general (usually in Korthos because they suck too much to get through Misery's Peak and they can't figure out how to get to Stormreach otherwise), but they tend to get beat down with 3-5 people telling them to shut up and/or go play WoW instead.

Every game that tries to pull players from WoW has these types, and they're annoying as ****. Nothing takes away from the enjoyment of the game early on like someone who won't shut up about how much better they think another game is. Fine, then go play it.

Seems like every MMOG (especially the ones that look like WoW; the more of a WoW clone they are, the more WoW fanboys they end up with) ends up with it.

Again, I'm not saying all WoW players are terribad fanboys; but they're certainly the loudest, most annoying ones.
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#6 Jul 05 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Default
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Sorry Mikhalia, I meant it would be good for them to leave FFXIV and run back to WoW. :)
#7 Jul 05 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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xthunderblazex wrote:
Sorry Mikhalia, I meant it would be good for them to leave FFXIV and run back to WoW. :)


Oh. Well then I'm cool with that.
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#8 Jul 05 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I shouldn't respond to this because there are hundreds of other post about PS3 release date on the web already. The fact is PS3 demographic is completely different from computer gaming. That is an untapped resource Blizzard doesn't want any part of. Also FFXIV isn't going to take any satisfied players from WoW because they are happy were they are. FFXIV is going to take people who like Final Fantasy, those who are tired of their current MMO, and those who want to play a console MMO.

If anything the PS3 influx 6 months later will propel the game foreward because it's a bunch of new players to fill the gap left by that 50%. I'm not really concerned that FFXIV will tank because it has alot of strong community support both domestic and foreign. I also don't care if it's a WoW killer or not as long as I enjoy it and it's a good game. Really the PS3 players are lucky because the PC players are going to "Beta" test the actual game for 6 months and get the bugs worked out before they show up.

Starcraft 2 and Blizzard's upcoming MMO is going to take numbers away from WoW.
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#9 Jul 05 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Default
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desmar wrote:
WoW is frustrating because this is the end of an expansion, the average player has no reason to even log in anymore. Everything is out on the table and obsolete by the end of this year. This is where it gets interesting. Blizzard *always* tries to release an expansion hot on the heels of another MMO's release. This is to steal steam away from the new MMO, because the beginning of a new expansion is usually pretty fun. However, there isn't just FF14 on the horizon. I haven't been tracking it, since i'm not a sci-fi buff, but the Star Wars MMO from Bioware is also something to seriously consider, and Blizzard's release of Cataclysm relative to FF14 & Star Wars will be an interesting take to who the company sees as a bigger threat, and of interest to us, because it alludes to perhaps the entertainment value that either game might present to us, the consumers.


Here's the way I see it:

I want people who WANT to play XIV to play XIV.

If someone if 50/50 between their FFXIV and another MMOG, then I'm not too concerned about them. If they try XIV and enjoy it, great, welcome aboard. If they try it and don't like it, fine too; head on back to the game you were playing.

If someone is perfectly happy with their other MMOG, let them keep playing it. I really don't care at all at trying to convince this crowd to come over because nearly all of them will just find things to complain about and **** up /say or /shout or whatever until they finally quit.

From a financial standpoint, I do understand that you want to get as many customers as possible so that you can get as much money as possible. But from a player standpoint, bringing in a bunch of people who probably won't like the game just ruins the experience for people who are enjoying it.

Consider the following analogy:

There is a fairly popular club that plays mostly rock music.

You decide to open a club that plays techno, and you post ads for it around the rock club.

Patrons of the rock club come to your club, along with fans of techno. The latter people are happy but the former are complaining that your club isn't playing enough rock. Since this is the "common complaint" (because the people who are happy aren't complaining), you decide to play some rock.

Eventually, your club is playing half techno, half rock. The techno purists have left, and the rock fans have gone back to their rock club because you still aren't playing enough rock for them. In the end, you're making less money and you're producing a product that only makes half of your crowd happy half of the time.

Make a product, and if it's good, people will play it. Don't try to emulate another product in an effort to draw in someone else's fanbase; they'll just complain about your product, demand that you make changes to suit their tastes, and most of them will just leave to go back anyway.
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#10 Jul 05 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
WoW isn't a great game. It's a crappy game.


You're trippin'.

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#11 Jul 05 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Default
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WOW is why I think Square is doing what they are doing with the Sept release.

But to answer your question I don't think Square is worried too much about ****** off PS3 players (They will come up with some free in game shiny for PS3 players as a way of saying "Sorry We @#%^ed You" and they will get back 99% of them) but I think they will end up losing some people who are not big PC players and never got into FFXI because they didn't want to play catch up and even though some people are saying 6 months is not that long it will have an effect on some people who wanted to try FFXIV but won't because they will feel like they're playing catch up.



Edited, Jul 5th 2010 3:34pm by ThiefX
#12 Jul 05 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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I don't see why we as the consumers, even care about if FFXIV will surpass WoW or not. It has no bearing on you directly, the only thing it affects is SE's pockets. I just hope for a successful game like FFXI was, that last for a good amount of years. The only one that should really care about if FFXIV will take WoW players is SE. I honestly hope it doesn't, I like a FF type of community and would rather have a great community rather then 10 million crybabies just so the media see FFXIV as a success. All I need as a player is enough players to keep this MMO going and booming, and I'm sure that will happen. A game with this backing and the Final Fantasy name will not die in 6 months, especially with a company that still has a MMO going for 8+ years. I just don't see why so many people care about stealing the WoW player base, because it will have absolutely no impact on your life, as long as the servers are full and the game is booming. It doesn't take WoW numbers to be a success and a fun game, FFXI was prove and FFXIV will probably be even better.

#13 Jul 05 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Default
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I'm actually glad PS3 is pushed back til March, I might take a day off of work when the games released on PC to see how many people are bishing about the bugs, get use to it, it'll be happening probably right up until the launch of PS3. On a bright note, you can stick out your chest and be prideful you went through "that time" like others didn't, so brag on. =] I don't like waiting til march either, but I've got other things I can do with my time before I immerse myself into the world of 14. So pound your chests cause you are that guy/girl who will be their from the start who can mention that 5 years down the road when the game becomes dwindeled down, you partook in the greatness of the bugged peroid. I could be wrong too of course, could work great, but not like ps3 players would be far behind unless someone's in a race?
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#14xthunderblazex, Posted: Jul 05 2010 at 4:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I plan on having multiple classes to level cap, on two accounts, by the time any PS3 person steps into the game.
#15 Jul 05 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:
I don't see why we as the consumers, even care about if FFXIV will surpass WoW or not. It has no bearing on you directly, the only thing it affects is SE's pockets. I just hope for a successful game like FFXI was, that last for a good amount of years. The only one that should really care about if FFXIV will take WoW players is SE. I honestly hope it doesn't, I like a FF type of community and would rather have a great community rather then 10 million crybabies just so the media see FFXIV as a success. All I need as a player is enough players to keep this MMO going and booming, and I'm sure that will happen. A game with this backing and the Final Fantasy name will not die in 6 months, especially with a company that still has a MMO going for 8+ years. I just don't see why so many people care about stealing the WoW player base, because it will have absolutely no impact on your life, as long as the servers are full and the game is booming. It doesn't take WoW numbers to be a success and a fun game, FFXI was prove and FFXIV will probably be even better.


Exactly.
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#16 Jul 05 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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That's good to hear thunder, not sure how that changes the entire game though
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#17 Jul 05 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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xthunderblazex wrote:
I plan on having multiple classes to level cap, on two accounts, by the time any PS3 person steps into the game.

I will then sell them items at an inflated rate, as demand for low level things will far exceed the current supply at that time.


I wouldn't admit that plan publicly.

EDIT: Besides, overcharging for low level items to people who can't afford them just means that no one will buy them and everyone will have crappier gear.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 6:54pm by Mikhalia
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#18 Jul 05 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Thunder, the more post I read from you the more I discover who you are. Have you heard about a game called Tera? Might want to check it out >.>
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#19 Jul 05 2010 at 5:19 PM Rating: Default
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I've looked at it, wasn't interested. Been waiting for FFXIV for a long time, have a group of 10-15 people or so I plan on playing with. Most of us have our classes picked out already.
#20 Jul 05 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Default
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xthunderblazex wrote:
Cataclysm will be the same thing as wrath though, same endgame setup of Raids, Heroics, Dailies, nothing that is truly new, and it gets old quick.

People will still be yelling at others to stop standing in fire.


It'll be worse than that, because there's not even new talent tiers to keep people interested. For the first time in WoW's history, players will be raiding an entire expansion with largely the same set of talents and abilities that they raided the last one with.

I hear that the redesigned old world zones are amazing, but I wonder how many WoW players really have a burning desire to level more alts of classes that have existed for 6 years?
#21 Jul 05 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis wrote:
xthunderblazex wrote:
Cataclysm will be the same thing as wrath though, same endgame setup of Raids, Heroics, Dailies, nothing that is truly new, and it gets old quick.

People will still be yelling at others to stop standing in fire.


It'll be worse than that, because there's not even new talent tiers to keep people interested. For the first time in WoW's history, players will be raiding an entire expansion with largely the same set of talents and abilities that they raided the last one with.

I hear that the redesigned old world zones are amazing, but I wonder how many WoW players really have a burning desire to level more alts of classes that have existed for 6 years?


Well, they did say they're totally revamping the gear system; no more arpen, no more MP5, they're taking out a lot of "extra" stats to reduce the stats to the core stats again. Whether this is "Making the game more streamlined so that there is less redundancy and mathiness" or "Taking away any thought required and dumbing the gear down" depends on which side of the fence you sit on.

They're also supposedly redoing the talent trees, so while they aren't adding a new tier, they did say they're trying to remove a lot of the "obvious talents everyone picks", trying to make the unpopular ones more viable, and making the trees give inherent bonuses. I'm not sure how that's going to work out, but Cata may end up with a lot of respeccing before people find the new "optimal builds".

In terms of both areas and content, Cataclysm isn't set to add much in terms of "brand new"; it's just drastically changing a lot of things around. It could be jumping the shark, or it could be breathing new life into forgotten content.

Edited, Jul 5th 2010 8:03pm by Mikhalia
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#22 Jul 05 2010 at 9:14 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia wrote:


They're also supposedly redoing the talent trees, so while they aren't adding a new tier, they did say they're trying to remove a lot of the "obvious talents everyone picks", trying to make the unpopular ones more viable, and making the trees give inherent bonuses. I'm not sure how that's going to work out, but Cata may end up with a lot of respeccing before people find the new "optimal builds".


This is a horrible idea. In FFXI terms it's like removing Berserk, Utsusemi and Hasso so more people will go WAR/WHM.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#23xthunderblazex, Posted: Jul 05 2010 at 9:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) They removed boring things like Crit+, Dodge+, etc etc, and made it so the tree you choose, basically gives you crap like that by just putting points into it.
#24 Jul 05 2010 at 9:36 PM Rating: Default
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xiv shouldnt need to pull from wow, if its even slightly like xi it's largest appeal will be to players who prefer grouping and a teamwork based combat as opposed to mash your own buttons and ignore everyone else. A lot of us have been starving for another mmo like that but more refined and I'm hoping they keep that framework (of course there are necessary modern changes)

I'm also hoping their endgame will be similar to XI's in that rather than "you run a raid. over and over again. the end." that there will also be epic storylines you can run, essentially helping the journey not suddenly end at level cap.

...Also hoping they dont raise lv cap in expansions, I liked how XI did it before better, but I'm not sure what the general consensus of the rest on that is.
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#25 Jul 05 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:


They're also supposedly redoing the talent trees, so while they aren't adding a new tier, they did say they're trying to remove a lot of the "obvious talents everyone picks", trying to make the unpopular ones more viable, and making the trees give inherent bonuses. I'm not sure how that's going to work out, but Cata may end up with a lot of respeccing before people find the new "optimal builds".


This is a horrible idea. In FFXI terms it's like removing Berserk, Utsusemi and Hasso so more people will go WAR/WHM.


http://www.wow.com/2009/08/21/blizzcon-2009-stats-vastly-simplified/

Quote:
* Attack Power on gear is gone. Instead, some classes will get 2 AP from each point of Agi (Rogues, Hunters, Shamans, Druids), and other classes (presumably Warriors, Paladins, and Death Knights) will get 2 AP per point of Strength. Side effect: no more plate wearers stealing your gear
* Spell Power is gone. It comes from Int now.
* MP5 is gone. Spirit is the mana regen stat, and all classes that need it will get some form of Meditation. (Hunters, never fear - you don't use mana any more. More on this in a separate post.)
* Armor Penetration is gone. That one was just confusing.
* Defense is gone. Tanks are now defense-capped from talents, like Druid tanks.
* Haste now increases your rate of resource regeneration (mana, energy, rage, runes, focus).
* Block Value is gone, but blocks now mitigate a percentage of damage.
* Stamina is going to be more equal across different armor types - no more "plate HP envy."


http://www.wow.com/2009/08/22/blizzcon-2009-mastery-system-and-talent-trees/

Quote:
Looking at talent trees for all classes, the Systems team felt that players were spending too many points on things like flat damage or healing boosts; talents like Cruelty or Fire and Brimstone are uninteresting but necessary for players due to the bonuses they provide. On top of that, talent trees are bloated with all kinds of talents that are trying to do three things at once, which makes for confusion among players who might not be at the top of the min-maxing game.

What the Systems team wanted to do was make it possible for players to only use their points on "fun" talents -- ones like Body and Soul, Lightning Overload, or Juggernaut -- and make the passive bonuses that used to be in talents your reward for investing points into a tree.


Getting off onto a tangent, but yeah; Cataclysm is less focused on "new things" and more focused on "Changing the way everything works". Whether that's good or bad is a matter of perspective and opinion, I guess. I have my own opinions, but this isn't the WoW board and I don't want to derail the topic any further.

for better or for worse, Cataclysm -will- change -a lot- about WoW as its current players know it. That may or may not result in people quitting and trying a new game (such as FFXIV).
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#26 Jul 05 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Default
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Silverwyrm wrote:
xiv shouldnt need to pull from wow, if its even slightly like xi it's largest appeal will be to players who prefer grouping and a teamwork based combat as opposed to mash your own buttons and ignore everyone else. A lot of us have been starving for another mmo like that but more refined and I'm hoping they keep that framework (of course there are necessary modern changes)

I'm also hoping their endgame will be similar to XI's in that rather than "you run a raid. over and over again. the end." that there will also be epic storylines you can run, essentially helping the journey not suddenly end at level cap.

...Also hoping they dont raise lv cap in expansions, I liked how XI did it before better, but I'm not sure what the general consensus of the rest on that is.


I liked XI's "This is the level cap. You're done leveling up now" system, as did a lot of people, but the "popular" opinion seems to be that people want the level cap to be constantly raised because "Level 70 is better than level 60" and "Level 80 is better than level 70". I personally enjoy doing the content within a set of parameters (gear and level) but to most people, bigger numbers are better; they'd rather be dealing 1000 damage per hit against a target with 15,000 HP than dealing 100 damage per hit against a target with 1,500 HP because "1000 is higher".

I do agree with you; but it would seem that you and I may not necessarily be the "majority opinion" in a world of "Sure, it goes to 11, but why can't it go to 12 in the next expansion?"
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#27 Jul 05 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think it's up to SE when or how it will be released for PS3. It probably has more to do with Sony and getting it prepared to actually work on their system.
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#28 Jul 05 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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It was the same with FFXI and the PS2.

At first, there was a bit of derision aimed at the PS2 players, but it quickly smoothed out. I would imagine that it will be similar in FFXIV.

I'll probably wait until March just because I don't want to buy a new video card for my wife's PC. She'll play on PS3.
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#29 Jul 05 2010 at 10:39 PM Rating: Default
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Wow, didn't know that about Cataclysm. I heard about them dropping that one merit system thing but didn't know about the complete revamp.

I liked the mid level content FFXI had to offer instead of just a mad dash to 75 to actually start playing the game. Kinda of like the South Park WoW episode when they get max level, kill the pk'er, and ask "what do we do now? What do you mean, we can finally play the game."

I'm glad FFXIV doesn't have levels but don't really know how this is going to play out exactly. Are you really going to be able to team up with a skill level 50 GLD, kill low level stuff, and actually progress? Based on interviews I believe the system is more designed so that the level 50 GLD can equip a low skill weapon and play with you. Not the true no level we were hoping for but a system none the less. Maybe they'll have something similiar to level sync so a 43 GLD can team up with a 9 CON and still gain points on lowbie creatures.
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#30 Jul 06 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Decent
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WoW isn't a great game. It's a crappy game.



If WoW was a crappy game, why does it show up on other games forums so often? When people compare one MMO to another, why is the other always WoW? I personally didn't care for the game, it's just too easy/fast for my tastes. It is a very good game though.



Quote:
I'm glad FFXIV doesn't have levels but don't really know how this is going to play out exactly. Are you really going to be able to team up with a skill level 50 GLD, kill low level stuff, and actually progress? Based on interviews I believe the system is more designed so that the level 50 GLD can equip a low skill weapon and play with you. Not the true no level we were hoping for but a system none the less. Maybe they'll have something similiar to level sync so a 43 GLD can team up with a 9 CON and still gain points on lowbie creatures.


First, FFXIV does have levels they just work differently than we're used to. There are standard levels. Then there are "class" levels, which sound to me like they might work a lot like they did in FFXI, except that your base level doesn't change when you switch class. Higher weapon/class level will have greater effect with that weapon type and more skills/abilities for that class.

Second, if you're playing Gladiator and you equip a different weapon you'll become a different "class". Unless the weapon is of the same type, which then you wouldn't be trying to skill it up. Gladiator, as we know it, uses swords. If your gladiator puts on some claws it won't be a Gladiator, it will be a Pugilist.



#31 Jul 06 2010 at 3:16 AM Rating: Default
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Nalamwen wrote:
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WoW isn't a great game. It's a crappy game.



If WoW was a crappy game, why does it show up on other games forums so often? When people compare one MMO to another, why is the other always WoW? I personally didn't care for the game, it's just too easy/fast for my tastes. It is a very good game though.


One cannot objectively call WoW (or any game) "Good". Good is subjective. It depends on an arbitrary set of "rules" of what define "good" as opposed to "bad". The most common logic used behind calling WoW "Good" or even "The best" is the popularity; "10+ million people play it, so it must be good" is a crock of sh*t, logically speaking.

There are a number of reasons one might play a given game. Perhaps they enjoy the leveling system, perhaps they enjoy the PvP, perhaps they only play it because all their friends are, that may make the game enjoyable to them, it means the game is popular.

Statistically speaking, Walmart is the #1 retailer in the U.S., with Home Depot in the second. Do you personally enjoy shopping at these two stores? Would you be able to say that these are the BEST stores you have EVER shopped at?

If many people enjoy something, that does make it popular, but the mere fact that something is popular does not mean it is "good"; it simply means what it is: That many people enjoy it.

That said, the reason people tend to compare other games to WoW is just that: popularity.

There is this... thing... I can't explain it, but it exists within human nature, especially when it comes to marketing, wherein someone feels the compulsion to pick out the biggest, baddest product out there and say "I want to be bigger and badder than that". Everyone (again, specifically companies, but even humanity as a whole) feels the need to put themselves next to someone else and declare themselves better. "I'm smarter than him." "I'm stronger than her." "I make more money than he does." "My car is better than hers."

It's all in this ego-driven need to inflate our own sense of self worth. Everyone wants to be "the best", so they pick the biggest target out there and aggressively aim for it.

Now, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with being "the best", if one can truly objectively call oneself that, but statistically speaking, if 1,000,000 people all want to be "the best", then 999,999 of them will fail.

It seems like every MMOG wants to set itself up as "the WoW killer". It would seem as if, ever since WoW's mainstream popularity, developers sit down and say to themselves "WoW has 10 million players worldwide," (never mind that more than half are in China, which is a sh*tty market to try to push a game in from outside of China due to government regulations, but I digress) "...we want to have 11 million." And that's a nice goal, but it's an impossible one.

It's not because WoW has "the best" game on the market, it's because it was in the right place at the right time, and it had the right marketing behind it to take off. It started small and unknown just like any other game, but Blizzard REALLY likes to push marketing, probably moreso than any other developer. Count up the number of FFXIV ads you've seen on TV in the last month and compare it to the number of WoW ads you've seen, and tell me the ratio. What? You can't divide by zero?

First, you have to consider that Blizzard already had a built in "startup population" from Diablo 2, Starcraft, and three existing Warcraft titles. Getting people to START playing was the only "hard" part and it wasn't even that hard. To be fair, FFXI had that same startup population from FF fans; the biggest difference was that FF fans were traditionally used to single player games, whereas Blizzard's players have been playing online Blizzard titles since the mid 90s. Whereas SE was exploring uncharted territory when it came to "patches" and "updates" and "having a player base that wants things and having to actually listen to them from time to time", Blizzard had been doing it for 10 years.

On top of this, once Blizzard got a starter seed population of 1-2 million, now comes the easy part: Marketing.

Blizzard are marketing GENIUSES. Try watching a commercial for WoW, try remembering any commercial you've ever seen for it, they all have two things in common:

1) They don't actually tell you anything ABOUT the product.
2) They tell you that EVERYONE is playing it (most include an example of a celebrity that you have all heard of and can relate to.)

A gamer might scoff at first, but think about it: How many players have given WoW a try for no other reason than the fact that they saw Mr. T or Mini Me or Captain Kirk, saw a few 5 second clips of gameplay that didn't really tell you anything, and ultimately decided "@#%^, I'll give it a shot."

Here comes the next genius marketing part: The free trial. The plastered it right into their ads and on the site: "FREE TRIAL". This is another exercise in human behavior: People, especially American people, like the word "Free". It's their second favorite four letter word that starts with 'F'. You say "Free" to someone and they are already going to try your product; they have stopped listening. You don't need to speak any more, and if you do, it won't @#%^ing matter. You could say "FREE DIRTY AIDS NEEDLES" and you'd still have a couple dozen people who want to try it. Why the @#%^ not? It's free!

Here's the thing: WoW is like crack. Sure, some people will try it and decide they don't like it, but most won't. Most people are going to try it for two weeks, they're going to want to keep playing, and that's when the trial is all like "No, *****, go buy the game!" and then you're hooked. It's like @#%^ing crack. You keep playing whether you want to or not.

Have you ever tried to cancel your WoW subscription? Go on, try it. On the "Are you sure?" page is a character crying. He isn't just crying, the page TELLS you he's crying. I can't remember the exact wording, but it's something along the lines of "The poor little guy is in tears and it's all your fault." I think it said something about me killing his dog, too, but it's been a while. First part isn't sarcastic though. They give you a semi-guilt trip about quitting. And even if you do quit, they still go on to remind you how "Your character misses you already! He/she/it will always be there if you ever decide to come back!"

At any rate, the game has skyrocketed because of the inherent peer pressure mechanic of the PR. Everyone is playing it because everyone else is playing it. That's it. That's all there is to it.

Now I'm not going to claim that they aren't doing a lot of things right, or that I didn't enjoy the game for a while, but it's not "the best" game on the market for everyone. I'd even go as far as to say that I can almost guarantee that at least half, if not significantly more, of the WoW player base have never played any other MMOG besides WoW. They have nothing to compare it to. One can not even begin to call a product "the best" because you haven't tried any other product.

Statistically speaking, they won't either. Once you start playing a game that costs a monthly subscription, you immediately do not want to play another. It is very infrequent for people to play two games simultaneously and pay for both. It's nearly impossible for your average person to play them both at the same time, so you generally divide your time between the two games. You will inevitably play one game more than the other unless you FORCE yourself to ration your time, and you eventually ask yourself "Why am I paying for this other game?" and quit.

Now, I'm not saying that these "only ever played WoW" people haven't considered other games, but the thought process is usually "I'm happy with my current product, therefore I do not need to look for a new one." There may be a product out there that they will like better, but how will they know?

Anyway, now that I've gone off onto some massive rambling tangent, where was I...

So you have a game that already had a starting player base, follow it up by pushing "Everyone is playing it" and "Free Trial", and BAM: Instant popularity.

Every other MMOG company wants this because -they- want to be the best. Here's the thing: They will NEVER have this spot, for the following reason:

If you want customers, you need to advertise. Excluding WoW, how many (non-internet) ads have you seen for ANY MMOG? At all? FFXI? FFXIV? Aion? Guild Wars? Warhammer? Have you ever seen any ads for ANY MMORPG that wasn't WoW? No one advertises through TV except Blizzard. A lot of games will Advertise online, but where do they do it? At MMOG sites. They are advertising to an audience who are ALREADY PLAYING an MMORPG. That's like putting a car dealership ad on the radio: Unless you do not like your current product, you will not care.

Since most people are happy with their MMO purchase (or they wouldn't be viewing an MMO site), you are advertising to an audience who will largely ignore your ad. If you want new customers, advertise on TV, where the bulk of your viewing audience are people who may not necessarily be using another product. Convince them that not only should they be playing SOMETHING, they should be playing YOUR game. Look at infomercials: The art of selling someone something they never knew they wanted, and telling them why they NEED it.

It's a lot easier to market to someone who isn't already a customer of your competitor, because all you have to tell them is that your product is worth buying. You don't have to compare yourself to anyone else, because they don't know what the alternatives are.

Since everyone is comparing themselves to WoW, that inherently gives Blizzard MORE advertising because someone is going to ask "Why is everyone trying to tell me they're better than X? Maybe I should try X and see how bad it is" and BAM, instant customer for WoW.

No one ever tries to make "an MMORPG" anymore, they try to make "An MMORPG that is better than WoW". Then, you combine this with the seemingly logical (yet flawed) viewpoint that "If WoW has 10 million subscribers and I can convince half of them to try my product, then they will have 5 million and I will have 5 million and we will be as good as them".

If you really want any attempt at "beating" WoW, here is what you have to do: First, you create a game that you believe players will find better than any other MMOG. Second, you open free trials so that people can try your product; if it's that great, it will sell itself. Third, you advertise. TV, billboards, whatever. Get the attention of EVERYONE, not just gamers, and convince them why they need to TRY your product. Remember: "Free Trial". Make sure you say "Free"; they'll be downloading it before you can finish the word "Trial".

If you have made a good enough product that people like it and keep playing, turn up the marketing. Remember: "Everyone else is playing it, you should be too!"

WoW is indisputably the most popular game on the market and will be for a very long time because it had a solid player base to start, and it followed that with peer pressure marketing and free trials to get people hooked. That's the key to success for ANY product of ANY type: You find something that you have customers lined up for before it goes on sale, you give out free samples, and you tell everyone that isn't buying it that all their friends have it.

Creating a product with the intent to draw people away from another one, and then not advertising it at all (or only advertising it passively to people who are already using another similar product) is ineffective.

EDIT: holy ****, that was a long post...

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 5:16am by Mikhalia
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#32 Jul 06 2010 at 3:56 AM Rating: Good
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I think what you guys fail to realize is the more players FFXIV gets the more money SE has to develop content for the game. And like I say I wouldn't doubt FFXIV loosing at least half of the PC player base by the time its released on PS3. So far every new mmorpg tanks, but I don't think FFXIV will tank.

And then when its released on PS3 we will get a new wave of players and 90days after PS3 release will give us pretty close to the number of players they game will have for the long run. Because you know that a lot of the PS3 players will buy the game and quit too.

So far the only really successful MMORPG is WOW, sad but true. Every other MMORPG released after WOW tanked. And you guys need to stop and think for a minute. There are only so many mmorpg players in this world. And a lot of the FFXI player base plans to stay with that game. If we don't get players from another mmorpg, then who's going to play the game?
#33 Jul 06 2010 at 4:17 AM Rating: Good
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TheBSTGuy wrote:
I think what you guys fail to realize is the more players FFXIV gets the more money SE has to develop content for the game. And like I say I wouldn't doubt FFXIV loosing at least half of the PC player base by the time its released on PS3. So far every new mmorpg tanks, but I don't think FFXIV will tank.

And then when its released on PS3 we will get a new wave of players and 90days after PS3 release will give us pretty close to the number of players they game will have for the long run. Because you know that a lot of the PS3 players will buy the game and quit too.

So far the only really successful MMORPG is WOW, sad but true. Every other MMORPG released after WOW tanked. And you guys need to stop and think for a minute. There are only so many mmorpg players in this world. And a lot of the FFXI player base plans to stay with that game. If we don't get players from another mmorpg, then who's going to play the game?


As long as whatever server I end up on is full, I couldn't care less. Whether the game has 100K, 500K, or 10 million players, the only ones I'll ever interact with ingame are the ones who are on my server.

I also don't see how you can say that WoW is the -only- successful MMORPG, unless your definition of success is "more players than any other game". That's -a- definition, sure. And yes, it does have the most players.

As a player, I couldn't care less how many players the game has (who aren't players I would ever group with) or how much money they are making; I just care that they're making enough money to pay their own salaries and develop new content.

Scenario A: Company provides new content every 3 months, has 100,000 players.
Scenario B: Company provides new content every 3 months, has 1,000,000 players.
Scenario C: Company provides new content every 3 months, has 25,000,000 players.

As far as I'm concerned, from a player standpoint, these are all exactly the same to me. If I play the game and I like it, I consider it a good game and a success and I will keep playing it. If I play it and I dislike it, I will consider it a bad game and a failure and I will not play it. The amount of other people playing the game, and the popularity of other games on the market, will have zero effect on this decision.

This is what I was getting at in my last (long-winded) post: People seem to have developed this flawed mentality that a product is not worth using unless everyone else is also using that same product; that all of humanity needs ONE clothing store, ONE type of soda, ONE game console, ONE model of car, ONE type of pet... because if what you're using isn't the SAME product everyone else is using, then your product is bad.

Try a game. If you like it, play it; if you don't like it, don't play it. Basing your product purchasing decisions on a sheep mentality is insipid. I'm not saying that WoW is a good product or that it is a bad product, but to purchase and use a product it because "it is the most popular" is a stupid reason. Furthermore, -not- purchasing a given product because "Product X is more popular" is even dumber.

If someone doesn't want to play XIV because they don't like it, fine. We don't -need- to have the most popular MMORPG in order to have a successful one that we're happy with.
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#34 Jul 06 2010 at 4:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Like I said the more players the game has = the more content the players will get. Look at WOW what other game has given players that much free content? The answer is simple none! So do I care if a game has 100k players or 10 million players? Yes i do! Look at age of conan that game tanked bad and look how long it took for them to get a expansion. Do I really want to have to wait that long for ffxiv to get a expansion? **** no!
#35 Jul 06 2010 at 4:58 AM Rating: Decent
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TheBSTGuy wrote:
Like I said the more players the game has = the more content the players will get. Look at WOW what other game has given players that much free content? The answer is simple none! So do I care if a game has 100k players or 10 million players? Yes i do! Look at age of conan that game tanked bad and look how long it took for them to get a expansion. Do I really want to have to wait that long for ffxiv to get a expansion? **** no!


I thought FFXI had plenty of content.

Why don't you tell me specifically what WoW has provided in terms of "content quantity and quality" that FFXI has not also provided comparably, with 5% of the amount of players. According to your logic, 20x the players means Blizzard should have provided 20x as much content.

EDIT: And I never played Age of Conan so I had to look it up... one glance at the UI and it looks like they took WoW's UI and dumbed it down.

EDIT2: 700K players in 2008, and a common complaint about the game from people who quit was lack of content. Guess that proves that "lots of players" does not necessarily equal "lots of content"; they had lots of players, gave them NO content, and then the players left.

If anything, this just says the opposite of what you're claiming; more players doesn't get you more content; more content gets you more players. AoC apparently had MORE players than FFXI and LESS content.

So yeah, I stick to my prior statement: As long as I'm getting periodic updates, I don't care if the game has 100,000 or 10 million players. Doesn't affect me.

If anything, I'd prefer a game with less players. Less people playing means people remember each other more. It means your rep means more than it would if you were playing with more people, it means you tend to see the same people more often, it means less competition at endgame events... That wasn't one of my biggest complaints about WoW, but it was one of my minor gripes; there were TOO many people. The chances of running into the same person twice (unless they were on your friend list or guild) were abysmally slim.

I liked leveling in FFXI with a lower player base; you saw a lot of the same people as you leveled up; say hi to that White Mage you partied with last week, congratulate them on the Healer's Briault you notice they got. Maybe you're out pulling and you run into the ranger pulling for another party who was in your party yesterday; you wave hi and try to split up the mobs...

Conversely, in WoW, it seems like everyone you randomly ran into was just as likely to be nice to you as they were to be a douche, especially in the random group finder; why shouldn't they ninja roll on everything? Even if you don't put them on ignore, you'll probably never see them again.

The more I think about my experiences in both games, the more I'm hoping for a SMALLER playerbase.

EDIT3:

TheBSTGuy wrote:
Look at age of conan that game tanked bad and look how long it took for them to get a expansion. Do I really want to have to wait that long for ffxiv to get a expansion? **** no!


Age Of Conan came out May 2008 and had its first expansion May 2010, 2 years later.
World of Warcraft came out November 2004 with BC in January 2007 (2 years and 2 months) and LK in November 2008 (1 year, 11 months) with Cataclysm pegged for later this year (assuming October, that's 1 year and 11 months again).

So that still averages out to two years per expansion, the same as Age of Conan.

FFXI came out May 2002 with Zilart in April 2003 (9 months), Chains of Promathia in September 2004 (1 year, 5 months), ToAu in April 2006 (1 year, 7 months) and Wings of the Goddess in Nov 2007 (1 year, 7 months).

So ALL of FFXI's expansions have been released faster than WoW (with 20x the players) on top of content patches every 1-3 months, and WITHOUT taking their servers down one day a week, EVERY week.

I think this proves pretty definitively that with under half a million players, SE can STILL put out expansions faster than Blizzard can with 10 million. And considering WoW is -FAR- better known for an ADHD "I need new stuff now or I get bored" playerbase than FFXI is, that's saying something.

So yeah. 400-500k users is fine with me.

EDIT4: If FFXIV continues down this route, FFXIV's first expansion will come out before Blizzard's next one (after Cataclysm).

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 7:32am by Mikhalia
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#36 Jul 06 2010 at 6:47 AM Rating: Default
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For people like us, who has been reading and posting on these boards for a year,waiting and additional 6 months to play is torture. But for the general public the gaming experience will be alot better. They will get to benefit from everyones trial and error and and will get to read a "gulp" Brady Guide to help them get through their guildeves.
I wanted to play on PS3 but I have been following this game for a year now and I am to vested to wait another 6 months, so I pieced together some cash and bought a PC. I suppose even the greatest of experiences doesn't compare to six months of riding the bench.
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#37 Jul 06 2010 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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Wow really isn't easy - and I chuckle a little every time someone says it. You folks who think it's cake must have only played as DD's. Try healing as a paladin with your ONE SPELL or tanking which inevitably puts you as the party lead through a dungeon. I hope you know your way around! WoW has the same issues that other games have in that the Healer\Tank to DPS ratio is horribly off balance because no one wants to play the hard, thankless classes. I can see how folks who only ever swung a sword could think it's a *easy* game. I'm thrilled that they are streamlining things, because the stats and what affected what for which class under what spec was out of control.

Anyway, on topic: I think this is going to backfire on SE. I keep coming to the forums hoping for some info from them on *why* they pushed back the Ps3 release or *why* the PC benchmark seems so arbitrary, but no meaningful information is forthcoming. I really think that by the time the Ps3 release comes around, I will have lost interest. There's too many other things on the horizon to hold a torch for XIV just because SE wants to rush it out the door half-assed.

It's really poor form to be doing this to folks who were looking forward to a console MMO. This is why companies shouldn't announce things until they are sure they can deliver. All this does is make their fans question their ability to deliver what they promise (although I suppose 5 years of FFXI has conditioned us to accept mediocrity from SE).
#38 Jul 06 2010 at 7:20 AM Rating: Default
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WoW is easy, the only hard part is there are a lot of idiots that stand in fire.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 9:20am by xthunderblazex
#39 Jul 06 2010 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So far the only really successful MMORPG is WOW, sad but true. Every other MMORPG released after WOW tanked. And you guys need to stop and think for a minute. There are only so many mmorpg players in this world. And a lot of the FFXI player base plans to stay with that game. If we don't get players from another mmorpg, then who's going to play the game?
Actually I don't consider WoW the only successful MMO. Everquest, EVE, FFXI, City of Heroes, Guild Wars, and Lineage are all successful in thier own right and people still play them. Now yes, alot of games released after WoW have tank but for simple reasons. Alot tried to copy WoW and place a new IP sticker on it. Other changed their whole system to be like WoW, see Star Wars Galaxies. Why whould someone want to play a game that feels like WoW when they can just play WoW?

Also don't let Blizzards smoke and mirror marketing fool you. Yes they have 10 million subscribers but how many do you actually think are NA? It's estimated that over 7 million subscribers are in China/South Korea, with the other 3 million spread over the rest of the world.

Alot of FFXIV players are going to come from past FFXI players, unhappy MMO players, and people who generally love Final Fantasy. Also FFXIV won't be SE's only revenue, apart from thier normal gaming it's estimated that FFXI still has around 200,000 subscribers or $2.4 million a month. Trust me when I say FFXIV isn't going to tank. In fact based on FFXI success FFXIV will hit a million subscriber mark before it plateau like every other game.

Quote:
Anyway, on topic: I think this is going to backfire on SE. I keep coming to the forums hoping for some info from them on *why* they pushed back the Ps3 release or *why* the PC benchmark seems so arbitrary, but no meaningful information is forthcoming. I really think that by the time the Ps3 release comes around, I will have lost interest. There's too many other things on the horizon to hold a torch for XIV just because SE wants to rush it out the door half-assed.
Was already stated in a recent interview. FFXIV is designed with a 5 year life span so the graphics are built around that. PC benchmark seems crazy now because tech improves so rapid that in a year new PC will hit 3000 scores with ease. If you build a game for today current PC in a year it will look obsolete. As for the PS3 push back it just won't be ready by Sep. Most likely due to the changes from Alpha > Beta, http://www.youtube.com/finalfantasyxiv#p/u/0/-99sSSS3eP4.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 8:03am by dyvidd
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#40 Jul 06 2010 at 8:09 AM Rating: Default
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It won't backfire because they'll be getting six months of fees from a lot of people before the PS3 version is released. This will more than make up for the minority that will decide they aren't buying it based on what they've heard about the PC version. And while a lot of initial players will leave, there will be a lot more joining after the release. I'd expect a lot around the Christmas period especially.
#41 Jul 06 2010 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Everquest, EVE, FFXI, City of Heroes, Guild Wars, and Lineage are all successful in thier own right and people still play them.


I can think of Ultima and Perfect World to add to that. Successful in their own right at what they do, and people still play them.


On topic though, I don't think a delay in the PS3 release date will matter much as far as the games success or failure go. Many people have said, and I agree, that within the first 90 days many subscribers generally leave the game for the next new thing or go back to the old good thing.

My opinion is that those will be the majority of the people that choose not to buy FFXIV after all because of the release date. Sure, some that would have bought and played for longevity won't buy the game, but generally speaking if a person was really interested, they're still going to get it.

For myself, the thought never crossed my mind to not buy the game until I started reading some of the posts here. I mean, I've played every single FF that has been released in the US with the exception of Game Boy editions. It just didn't occur to me that some people wouldn't get the game because of this.

Then, I remembered that some people are not as addicted to FF as I am. *shrug*
#42 Jul 06 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
dyvidd wrote:
Quote:
So far the only really successful MMORPG is WOW, sad but true. Every other MMORPG released after WOW tanked. And you guys need to stop and think for a minute. There are only so many mmorpg players in this world. And a lot of the FFXI player base plans to stay with that game. If we don't get players from another mmorpg, then who's going to play the game?
Actually I don't consider WoW the only successful MMO. Everquest, EVE, FFXI, City of Heroes, Guild Wars, and Lineage are all successful in thier own right and people still play them. Now yes, alot of games released after WoW have tank but for simple reasons. Alot tried to copy WoW and place a new IP sticker on it. Other changed their whole system to be like WoW, see Star Wars Galaxies. Why whould someone want to play a game that feels like WoW when they can just play WoW?


Apparently then, FFXIV is one of those games that will try "to copy WoW and place a new IP sticker on it." And that's an objective statement based on the systems SE has implemented that mimic those found in WoW combined with your criteria, yet people here still talk like it's not. There's a duality to the argument. Let's take a look at some of the things SE has "copied" from WoW for XIV, shall we?

1) Action bars.
2) Quest driven progression (to include quests that reward xp and currency for completion).
3) Accessible solo play.
4) Action driven combat system.
5) Abundant rapid travel options.

Those are some pretty significant core elements to any game. I'm sure you'll find some way to try to downplay their relevance in labeling XIV a WoW clone, but I hope you realize before you try that all of those arguments will apply just as equally to all of the other games you reference as having tried to "copy" WoW.

Why would someone want to play a game that sucks just for the sake of saying they're not playing WoW?

Quote:
Alot of FFXIV players are going to come from past FFXI players, unhappy MMO players, and people who generally love Final Fantasy. Also FFXIV won't be SE's only revenue, apart from thier normal gaming it's estimated that FFXI still has around 200,000 subscribers or $2.4 million a month. Trust me when I say FFXIV isn't going to tank. In fact based on FFXI success FFXIV will hit a million subscriber mark before it plateau like every other game.


I don't think XIV will see the 1 million subscriber mark, personally. It might, but I doubt it. For starters, a large segment of the PC population has been excluded because they don't have the hardware to run the game. A large segment of the PS3 population is ****** off at SE right now. A large chunk of the beta testing period has vanished and the devs even said at the French interview that there may not even be an open beta. SE is running the very significant risk of releasing an unpolished game which we know from past games is a great way to drive away a lot of players who might have been reasonably interested in playing the game but are waiting on post-release word of mouth to make a purchase decision. Outside that niche market of people who will play XIV just because it's a Square Enix MMO, XIV doesn't have mass appeal. It has appeal, but not enormous. The people who will be looking most intently at XIV are the ones who played XI and the ones who are looking for something new. The "something new" crowd is an extremely fickle lot.

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Was already stated in a recent interview. FFXIV is designed with a 5 year life span so the graphics are built around that. PC benchmark seems crazy now because tech improves so rapid that in a year new PC will hit 3000 scores with ease. If you build a game for today current PC in a year it will look obsolete. As for the PS3 push back it just won't be ready by Sep. Most likely due to the changes from Alpha > Beta, http://www.youtube.com/finalfantasyxiv#p/u/0/-99sSSS3eP4.


XIV was not developed with a five year lifespan. It has been developed so that five years from now it will still have visual appeal because it will be 5 years from now before your "average" PC will be able to run it at high settings.
#43 Jul 06 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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HocusP wrote:
I don't see why we as the consumers, even care about if FFXIV will surpass WoW or not. It has no bearing on you directly, the only thing it affects is SE's pockets. I just hope for a successful game like FFXI was, that last for a good amount of years. The only one that should really care about if FFXIV will take WoW players is SE. I honestly hope it doesn't, I like a FF type of community and would rather have a great community rather then 10 million crybabies just so the media see FFXIV as a success. All I need as a player is enough players to keep this MMO going and booming, and I'm sure that will happen. A game with this backing and the Final Fantasy name will not die in 6 months, especially with a company that still has a MMO going for 8+ years. I just don't see why so many people care about stealing the WoW player base, because it will have absolutely no impact on your life, as long as the servers are full and the game is booming. It doesn't take WoW numbers to be a success and a fun game, FFXI was prove and FFXIV will probably be even better.



That's not true exactly. Sure if FFXIV surpasses WoW that money goes right in the pocket of SE. However, you fail to see the other side of that coin. Do you ever wonder why SE never released an optimized version of XI on the PS3? Or why SE hasn't done more to fix XI's balance issues or misc problems? Or how about the lack of new graphics themselves for gear and WS's, not just recanned dats. The answer is simple, money. If FFXI generated more money, we wouldn't of had the servers merge. We would have real updates and expansions, not downloads or buying gear(*cough* ACP,moogle, etc) The revenue generated determines the overall experience. Remember MMORPG's evolve over time so a MMORPG that doesn't have funding offer suffers from meh updates.

SE is aiming for WoW's playerbase or **** close to it. FFXIV's "casual" system itself is designed to take people away from their "Easy" games such as WoW. I've said this before, but there is no reason at all to release FFXIV if SE isn't thinking bigger numbers for their game. Some people might like their 2k size servers and think that's a good number, but in reality the loss of more subscriptions is hurting FFXI's potential and FFXIV if they haven't learned their lesson. Oh, and like it or not, there are too many games out there. The niche of the MMORPG fantasy market is limited by this. Like it or not, FFXIV won't be able to exceed past FFXI's server base unless they not only recruit former FFXI players, but other MMORPG players that have never touched a FF game before. Most of those untapped players will come from WoW like it or not.
#44 Jul 06 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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1. Action Bars - Everquest did it first
2. Quest driven progess - Sorry but WoW wasn't first. Dragon Chronicles exist long before WoW was release.
3. Solo Play - Everquest did it first again
4. Action Driven - Sorry but not WoW, if anyone they are coping Age of Conan
5. Abundant rapid travel options - Sorry not WoW again. If anything Aetheryte got it's roots from FFXI ToAU, not WoW.

The fact is both WoW and FFXI were influenced by Everquest.

FFXIV is influenced by the current market; WoW, Diablo, Age of Conan, FFXI, Everquest, and Warhammer Online. Every game dev worth his salt explores the market to see what works and doesn't work. The difference is when it comes down to it a good game designer sticks to his vision and ideas while adding what he has experienced from other and a bad designer let's the company micro manage how to design a game so they can make a quick buck. That to me is what a "clone" is. If you need a good example read up on Star Wars Galaxies, pre and post NGE. If you copy every aspect of a game solo to get rich fast simple because it's hot than that is a WoW clone.

I stand by my statement in saying that those who are WoW clones will fail.
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FFXIV Dyvid (Awaiting 2.0)
FFXI Dyvid ~ Pandemonium (Retired)
SWTOR Dy'vid Legacy - Canderous Ordo
#45 Jul 06 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
That's not true exactly. Sure if FFXIV surpasses WoW that money goes right in the pocket of SE. However, you fail to see the other side of that coin. Do you ever wonder why SE never released an optimized version of XI on the PS3? Or why SE hasn't done more to fix XI's balance issues or misc problems? Or how about the lack of new graphics themselves for gear and WS's, not just recanned dats. The answer is simple, money. If FFXI generated more money, we wouldn't of had the servers merge. We would have real updates and expansions, not downloads or buying gear(*cough* ACP,moogle, etc) The revenue generated determines the overall experience. Remember MMORPG's evolve over time so a MMORPG that doesn't have funding offer suffers from meh updates.

SE is aiming for WoW's playerbase or **** close to it. FFXIV's "casual" system itself is designed to take people away from their "Easy" games such as WoW. I've said this before, but there is no reason at all to release FFXIV if SE isn't thinking bigger numbers for their game. Some people might like their 2k size servers and think that's a good number, but in reality the loss of more subscriptions is hurting FFXI's potential and FFXIV if they haven't learned their lesson. Oh, and like it or not, there are too many games out there. The niche of the MMORPG fantasy market is limited by this. Like it or not, FFXIV won't be able to exceed past FFXI's server base unless they not only recruit former FFXI players, but other MMORPG players that have never touched a FF game before. Most of those untapped players will come from WoW like it or not.


None of that have anything to do with money. If SE was a new company then yes you would have a point, but SE makes enough money. They don't do any of that because they don't want too, and because FFXI has peaked. The amount of players have no direct correlation on anything, unless the game didn't have enough players and was considered dieing. This is almost the case now but it had no effect on the case back when FFXI was peaking. They could of easily added all that but they didn't want to. SE still makes a profit on FFXI, and what they decide to add to not add is there decision. Only thing that changes if SE was more successful is the amount of money in SE's pocket. Blizzard and SE are too very different companies.

Also as a side-note, SE already said numerous times that they are not aiming for a WoW player-base. I know that they would be happy if it got there but they have said many times that they just want a successful game and the best final fantasy game. If they were really pushing for WoW numbers they would release the game in asia, because that is where most MMO players are and that is where the majority of WoW players are (6.5 million of WoW players are china/korea). Instead they are still not releasing the game there for personal reasons, so obviously money is not the only priority or at least they still put personal decisions over money. Where you release the game is the most important part if you are aiming to take down a giant, and the fact remains that the majority of MMO players are in a region that FFXIV will not be released in. Not only WoW but even in Aion that has millions of players, the majority are from china/korea.

Most people just want FFXIV to outsell WoW so they can brag about playing the most popular game out there. But fact to the matter is that have a very little impact on you, as long as the game is booming and it doesn't take those numbers to be considered booming. Also those kind of numbers will not happen because SE will not even sell the game to the countries that play MMOs the most. So, I wouldn't hold your breath if you are expecting those type of numbers, that is probably why SE even said that those type of numbers was unrealistic.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 12:32pm by HocusP
#46 Jul 06 2010 at 10:18 AM Rating: Default
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WoW isn't a great game. It's a crappy game. Lots of people are frustrated with it, and are looking for something new. I know lots of WoW players who are eager to leave for FFXIV.


This is very true. A bunch of my friends and I are looking forward to XIV. We still have some serious concerns about the game (and before the XI alarmists go off on me, no, it has nothing to do with "dumbing down" the game), but we hope that this one will be a better game overall.
____________________________
WoW:
80 Druid/Warrior/Priest/Shaman/Death Knight/Paladin/Mage/Hunter, 60 Warlock
Final Fantasy XI:
75 DRG, 60 PLD, 43 SCH Rank 10 Windurst, Rank 9 Sandoria, Rank 10 Bastok
Owned and completed:
FF 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12
#47 Jul 06 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
None of that have anything to do with money. If SE was a new company then yes you would have a point, but SE makes enough money. They don't do any of that because they don't want too, and because FFXI has peaked. The amount of player shave no direct correlation on any unless the game didn't have enough players and was considered dieing. SE still makes a profit on FFXI, and what they decide to add to not add is there decision. Only thing that changes if SE was more successful is the amount of money in SE's pocket. Blizzard and SE are too[sic] very different companies.


I respectfully disagree. You may think that FF XI makes SE enough money, but the simple truth is ~200,000-500,000 subscribers for a game as expensive to develop as FF XI is an abject failure in the MMO market. SE knows this. The only reason they continue to "profit" is because the developers have backed off from serious new development for the game.

The simple truth is that for FF XIV to be successful, SE will need to have a much larger target market, and engage in development practices and game production that not only engages that market but keeps them playing the game for a long period of time. I realize that many of the rabid FF XI fanbase doesn't want to hear this, but SE is aiming in the millions of subs for FF XIV, and as such, if they make FF XIV a niche game the way that FF XI was a niche game, you can expect to see more of the same in terms of second-rate development for addons/expansions.
____________________________
WoW:
80 Druid/Warrior/Priest/Shaman/Death Knight/Paladin/Mage/Hunter, 60 Warlock
Final Fantasy XI:
75 DRG, 60 PLD, 43 SCH Rank 10 Windurst, Rank 9 Sandoria, Rank 10 Bastok
Owned and completed:
FF 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12
#48 Jul 06 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
Wow really isn't easy - and I chuckle a little every time someone says it.


I don't know if it's easier than any other MMO, but it's certainly less punishing of failure and more rewarding of success than most other MMOs. It's certainly easier in that respect than any MMO that came before it.

What WoW does have is a lot of complexity to it, at least until you learn how to cut past all the BS and just play as a fully optimized robot. Look at the number of talent choices, the sheer number of abilities that each class has, and so on, and it's pretty overwhelming. I have friends who only play for a few months when an expansion is released, then quit til the next one, and watching them play, you'd think that WoW was like flying a helicopter in a hurricane.

For those who play it all the time, it's easy. We're all well trained robots who know when to hit each button for maximum effect, and the only real challenge of the game is working in tandem with others, which is the same challenge that exists in any MMO. In that sense, WoW is as hard as any MMO that has ever existed.



#49 Jul 06 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
For those who play it all the time, it's easy. We're all well trained robots who know when to hit each button for maximum effect, and the only real challenge of the game is working in tandem with others, which is the same challenge that exists in any MMO. In that sense, WoW is as hard as any MMO that has ever existed.


This is the best statement about wow I've seen on this forum.

And, truth be told, it's true about FF XI too.
____________________________
WoW:
80 Druid/Warrior/Priest/Shaman/Death Knight/Paladin/Mage/Hunter, 60 Warlock
Final Fantasy XI:
75 DRG, 60 PLD, 43 SCH Rank 10 Windurst, Rank 9 Sandoria, Rank 10 Bastok
Owned and completed:
FF 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12
#50 Jul 06 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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tl:dr most of it.

I doubt XIV will tank. Most of the MMO's that tanked (aion i a good example) had some major issues. Like open PvP. When the player base gets to max level, lower levels can't PvP anymore without getting 1 shot. Sure killing 500 people that are 20 levels below you doesn't give you anything in game, but people do it "for the luls" anyways.

I expect excellent PvE content at all levels from XIV. And for all sized groups. There WILL be something for you to do.

the star trek MMO was another good example of a ****** game. the ship to ship battles were fine and all, but overall it sucked. Ground based action was ******, the story made no sense to anyone but the hard core trekkie, and most of the content appeared to be going towards microtransactions. All in all, it sucked, completely uninteresting.

most of the other PvP MMO's seem to have fallen the way Aion has. Only other game that has fallen a different way would be Star Wars Galaxies. It seems wow is doing something similar, revamping the system completely and changing how everything works. This may make WoW die similar to SWG. If it changes too much, it'll definitely **** off the players that have played for years.
#51 Jul 06 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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HocusP wrote:

None of that have anything to do with money. If SE was a new company then yes you would have a point, but SE makes enough money. They don't do any of that because they don't want too, and because FFXI has peaked. The amount of players have no direct correlation on anything, unless the game didn't have enough players and was considered dieing. This is almost the case now but it had no effect on the case back when FFXI was peaking. They could of easily added all that but they didn't want to. SE still makes a profit on FFXI, and what they decide to add to not add is there decision. Only thing that changes if SE was more successful is the amount of money in SE's pocket. Blizzard and SE are too very different companies.


Yes, they are different companies - but Blizzard isn't their only competition by far.

There's too much *good* competition out there for them to push out lackluster product, repeated product, and incomplete product. That's what we are seeing these days - tunnels on blu ray discs, shells of expansions, and interviews stating NA's are too stupid to be given good games. Bad form, and it makes folks like me support Bethesda and Bioware and Lionhead even more. Who needs a JRPG when there's other companies building gaming experiences, rather than just games? The days of FF dominating the offline market are over, and unless they pull out some very big wins and some very clever tricks, they will never dominate the MMO market, either.

I've been a FF fan for time out of mind, and I remember that hail mary they threw on the NES system that was the defining moment - the make or break for their company. They aren't putting out titles as if it could be their last anymore, and it shows.

I'd like to see a little more from them than empty promises.


Edit - just saw this


MetalSmith wrote:

I doubt XIV will tank. Most of the MMO's that tanked (aion i a good example) had some major issues. Like open PvP. When the player base gets to max level, lower levels can't PvP anymore without getting 1 shot. Sure killing 500 people that are 20 levels below you doesn't give you anything in game, but people do it "for the luls" anyways.


How did Aion *tank*? As of January they were reporting 3 million subscribers. That's six times as many as we have in FFXI currently. Yes, they lost some to open PvP but sadly, there's way more people who actually *like* that kind of asshatery than those who don't.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 12:56pm by Torrence
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