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Thaumaturge=Nercomancer?Follow

#1 Jul 06 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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I am just curious if thaumaturge will be like a necromancer class without like the undead summoning? I just like the fact that they have the draining spells and debuffs that are very similar to necromancer classes on other rpgs. If more is confirmed about the class it will probably be my class of choice unless they release bard. Please give me some input on the class if you have any!
#2 Jul 06 2010 at 11:06 AM Rating: Decent
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No.

They basically have the dark magic and light magic spells.
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#3 Jul 06 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
No.

They basically have the dark magic and light magic spells.


Unless you've seen something I haven't all I notice are dark magic.

Judging from the ffxiv website it looks like the thaumaturge is basically where all of the dark type of magic from ffxi have been congregated, including gravity (was wind in ffxi but it always seemed more dark to me) and and the absorb spells from drk.
#4 Jul 06 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Yea it just seems like it would be a debuffer class to me, i have yet to see a reason why thaumaturge is the big hitter like square enix claims so far.
#5 Jul 06 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Seems more like debuff / Dark Knight spells
#6 Jul 06 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Put it to you this way: Thaumaturge has spells like Dia and Banish. For nearly every dark spell I've seen, I've seen a light one to match it.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#7 Jul 06 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Looks like its getting the debuffers that will allow you to solo like RDM. Who knows til we get to play though.
#8 Jul 06 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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For being a "big hitter" as SE claims, the spells and abilities we've seen so far on Thaumaturge are very peculiar. But it is just a sample - a very weird sample if it is indeed a heavy hitter - but a sample.
#9 Jul 06 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Only recently has SE added a necro to their games with the GBA version of FF5.

For this reason, maybe we can be hopeful they one day add a class that operates in necromancy. I don't think it'd be my style, but it's likely many fans would embrace this change. However, my gut and experience tells me SE would rather keep necro and blm/rdm (which I feel thaumaturge more closely falls into based of speculation) serparate.

Then again, my mind is a bit stuck in the way of how ffxi was in which every job was very specfic. However, with so few jobs announced so far, it's possible that SE is allowing themselves space for expansion jobs later.

Another thought I had is that there seems to be no SMN job this time around as the avatars are being heavily woven into the story. If this stands, this does leave room for new pet jobs that didn't exist before.

Personally, I think they should cover familer ground such as BST before tackling new ground with NEC if they ever do so.
#10 Jul 06 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes i think necromancer would bring an amazing new aspect to the online final fantasy world because there was not alot of pet classes in 11 only bst, smn, drg, and pup and i feel the only intense pet classes were smn and bst because you relied on your pets more. i would like to see them add something thats not your typical final fantasy class just renamed like monk=pugilist >.>
#11 Jul 06 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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My apologies Kratore if this comes off sounding rude or flippant, I mean it in as an honest question: Have you read the discipline abilities and spells listed as a sample on the main FFXIV website? The disciplines have really broken the mold an a lot of weapon to ability stereotypes. Your example of monk=pugilist, for example, was a hotly debated topic when those ability sheets were first published. The pugilist, or hand-to-hand user to be precise, has a hodge-podge of abilities ranging from FFXI Thief's Sneak Attack like abilities, to tanking provoke abilities, to buffing and debuffing abilities via Weapon Skills similar to a FFXI Dancer. It's kind of robbing the system of its uniqueness to attempt to boil each discipline down to a single job like saying monk=pugilist.

Another interesting tidbit, for those of you who do not follow the rumor mill as closely as the average forum lurker, it has been spread about that puppetmaster in FFXI is actually the result of an attempt by SE to build a necromancer in FFXI. Apparently the game did not have the underlying code to be able to handle necromancers easily, so in the end they gave up and used some of the concepts they had developed to make puppetmaster instead. So it isn't like there is no precedent for necromancers, if you believe everything you read.

Edited, Jul 6th 2010 6:42pm by Hulan
#12 Jul 06 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Another interesting tidbit, for those of you who do not follow the rumor mill as closely as the average forum lurker, it has been spread about that puppetmaster in FFXI is actually the result of an attempt by SE to build a necromancer in FFXI. Apparently the game did not have the underlying code to be able to handle necromancers easily, so in the end they gave up and used some of the concepts they had developed to make puppetmaster instead. So it isn't like there is no precedent for necromancers, if you believe everything you read.


That's so odd you mentioned that. I've never heard this was offically SE's way of attempting necro, but something about it always struck me as similar in concept. The puppets themselves were constructed with a dark aurora about them.

Regardless, I still am inclined to believe they reintroduce a more familar pet reliant class first such as bst before covering something very unique to the FF universe.
#13 Jul 06 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually, I believe their stated reason for no Necromancer was that Undead only come out at night in the lore, and they thought it would be pretty useless. Basically ignoring the fact that there are already Necromancers in XI-- pirates and lamia.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

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#14 Jul 06 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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That's interesting, I had always heard that it was because they wanted the necromancer to be able to raise dead monsters al la bst charm, but that since monsters do not leave corpses, it was impractical. Your reason sounds a lot more like SE though, so it seems more likely.
#15 Jul 06 2010 at 6:25 PM Rating: Decent
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No hostility was taken by your post and yes i did read the descriptions, when i said that i wasnt meaning that they took exact monk skills and abilities and transferred then to 14 and given the name pugilist, im saying the general idea of monk was brought to 14, renamed, and given new abilities. what i would like to see is a whole new class posssibly never before seen in the final fantasy series. like a witch doctor or like a pscionist type class
#16 Jul 06 2010 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe I don't know what a pscionist is, but they did have a "psychic" class in the FFX-2 international version, I believe.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#17 Jul 06 2010 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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I have no clue what a nercomancer is....

Kidding aside, yeah, PuP was supposed to be a necromancer class, but like others said, the lore prevents undead from being out during the daytime. However, there is a certain necromancer down in San'doria who doesn't seem to mind...

As for Thaumaturge, they seem more like a support or DoT class. FFXI never really got a good DoT job in the sense that you see warlocks in WoW and other games. I'm thinking spells like poison, dia, and absorb spells will be more potent than their FFXI counterparts, but i could be wrong.
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#18 Jul 06 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Who's the necromancer in Sandoria? Sounds familiar but I don't remember it.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure SE broke their own rule with the undead, as I'm pretty sure that pirates can attack during the day (the undead that attack the ferry are summoned by necromancers), and lamia will have their undead pets out during the day as well. So since very early in the game, they've broken their own lore on necromancers.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#19 Jul 06 2010 at 7:52 PM Rating: Decent
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yea psionist uses mental abilities to subdue enemys which would be a cool class to play and would be cool to see something different. in the end we get to just wait and see what SE throws at us!
#20 Jul 06 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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I think that whole undead during the day thing is a poor excuse not to allow necromancers. I can think of several ways to make the lore work around it (such as, undead only occur "naturally" during the day but can be conjured at any time or undead only occur when it's dark so the necromancer creates an aura of darkness around him/her or the necromancer creates a virulent breed of undead that can withstand the sun or a necromancer merely creates the illusion of undead or the spirits of the dead so sunlight doesn't really matter). If this is really the case I would start losing faith in SE's imaginative abilities.
#21 Jul 07 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Unfortunately, I vividly recall that this was their explanation for no Necromancer. And yes, it's sad that they gave up on the idea so easily given that they already have necromancers in the game-- that they can't keep up with their own canon doesn't speak too highly of them.

They had also considered a Viking and Mime class, but couldn't figure out what to do with them. I was very disappointed with their lack of creativity.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#22 Jul 07 2010 at 12:53 AM Rating: Good
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I would think a puppeteer is more 'imaginative' than a necromancer like what every other RPG already has.



#23 Jul 07 2010 at 12:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I think that whole undead during the day thing is a poor excuse not to allow necromancers.


That's because SE does what SE wants. They don't care what us westerners think is cool. It's really too bad because I find their "lore" and imagination to be quite bland. Final Fantasy had some really cool stories, but I feel FFXI fell short in that department. I loved the camaraderie amongst the players and the whole MMO experience, but when I look back after playing a certain western MMO (I know you guys will hate me for this); I feel like SE lacks soul. Having said that, I personally hope that they will consider broadening their scope of what makes a game connect with it's audience; the other 75% of the world. I personally think that Necros and Warlocks are waaaay more interesting than puppetmaster (the one SE threw together, maybe someone else could do it better), but maybe that's because I grew up a westerner reading western literature.. I don't know.

Again this is just my opinion. Don't be mad at me.



Edited, Jul 7th 2010 12:01am by GuardianFaith
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#24 Jul 07 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I like the premise of Puppetmaster, although I wasn't too crazy about the particular character design of the automatons.

I don't fully understand what makes some people prefer western/Japanese "nerd culture." My girlfriend seems to prefer western stuff and is hardly willing to give the stuff I like a chance, whereas I've never been a fan of the western stuff. It's mostly a matter of style, I guess-- things that aim to be gory or too realistic simply don't appeal to me. I like my fantasy relatively idealistic, and in Japanese culture even the darker and gorier stuff is more often portrayed with a level of visual beauty.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#25 Jul 07 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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I find the puppetmaster more interesting in warlocks and necros imo, main reason being I see those two everywhere. PuP was new and refreshing to me.
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#26 Jul 07 2010 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't fully understand what makes some people prefer western/Japanese "nerd culture." My girlfriend seems to prefer western stuff and is hardly willing to give the stuff I like a chance, whereas I've never been a fan of the western stuff. It's mostly a matter of style, I guess-- things that aim to be gory or too realistic simply don't appeal to me. I like my fantasy relatively idealistic, and in Japanese culture even the darker and gorier stuff is more often portrayed with a level of visual beauty.


I grew up watching anime and reading manga. I loved Japanese cartoons,movies,culture,etc. I even took Japanese in highschool for 4 years and made it to honors (even though I got C's in most of my other classes). I thought american cartoons sucked and I did not like American games either. I didn't walk around with those goofy cat ears on my head or wear shirts with kanji all over it, but I did like Japanese stuff a lot. Now, I don't know. It just doesn't do it for me like it used to. The western idea of elves and warriors/sorcerers are just more interesting to me at this point. So I haven't always leaned this way, it just kinda happened.

(The blood and gory stuff like in Age of Conan was not my thing at all. That game was terrible and the art direction was terrible. Failhammer was boring and ugly too. I guess WoW was the only game that really changed my mind and made FFXI seem boring and bland. Almost foreign now. I guess Blizzard brainwashed me.)

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 6:27pm by GuardianFaith
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#27 Jul 07 2010 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Hm, that's foreign thinking to me-- the aesthetics of WoW just completely turn me off. Actually the art direction and themes of many western games turn me off even though I tend to think that western gameplay tends to be a bit better than Japanese in some ways. I could probably get in to WoW if I didn't find it so insufferably ugly.

Of course it's only been recently that attempts at realism in art direction have been feasible, whereas before they were mostly futile. Sprites on the other hand were always fine. So I think western art in video games has finally found some success in realism, but that's the only way I would categorize it as successful. I actually am not sure there's been a single western game that I would consider the art aesthetically pleasing that wasn't an example of successful realism.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#28 Jul 07 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I could probably get in to WoW if I didn't find it so insufferably ugly.


I have to partially agree with you on this. Anything pre-bc and even some of it after is pretty ugly. I think it's the classes,talent builds,raids, and jumping/swimming that really made me enjoy it.

FFXI is def better looking as far as character models go but the environment seems to lack color.. then again most people in the ffxi forums feel wow has too much color due to it's "cartoony" design.
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