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#1 Jul 07 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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How many people are as excited to go nm hunting (if they have them) as i am?! I loved getting together with a few of my RL friends and hanging out at a camp waiting for something to spawn and the satisfaction of beating the RMT guys was the best. Im just curious if they are going to have any modifiers for drops like TH in 11 cause if they have a class that does i might invest my time skilling it up for the benefits of TH effect.
#2 Jul 07 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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Wasnt really one of the best things I enjoyed about the game but it had its benefits. It was the hunt I looked forward too really not the prize.
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#3 Jul 07 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
YES! I am looking forward to the new NM hunt. I was one of the "odd balls" that really enjoyed NM hunting. I still remember how fun it was when I first discovered my first few NMs not knowing they implemented a system like that. I remember after fighting Jagged-Ear Jack for the first time and it reminded me of that evil rabbit from Monthy Python and the Holy Grail. Took me a long time to get my revenge because he seemed so rare to find!
#4 Jul 07 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
Once they made a lot of the drops Rare/Ex so bots and RMT stopped camping them so much, I really enjoyed NM hunting in FFXI and hope they bring the experience over to XIV.
#5 Jul 07 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe I'm in the minority here but I always found NMs to be a nuisance, especially the ones that pop at my camps... I'm looking at you Zoraal Ja's Pkuucha and Myradrosh.
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#6 Jul 07 2010 at 11:26 AM Rating: Decent
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haha yea i remember my first NM was the yagudo below giddeus or w/e that drops the pirana shield and i farmed like 7 of them with the intentions of selling them to then find out what rare ex meant XD. I cant wait to hit the lvl cap and start farming gear from NMs, going to be good times :D
#7 Jul 07 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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kyansaroo wrote:
Maybe I'm in the minority here but I always found NMs to be a nuisance, especially the ones that pop at my camps... I'm looking at you Zoraal Ja's Pkuucha and Myradrosh.


But you gotta admit.. getting revenge on them later on was always satisfying :)
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#8 Jul 07 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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This is one of those weird things which is only fun at first.

I love wandering around and running into an NM I've never heard of, fighting it not knowing what it drops, and maybe getting something nice, maybe not.

The actual "Standing in one place and waiting for something to pop, and hoping to outclaim 3 other people" thing I could do without.

It's not that I even mind the camping part; I've camped Western Shadow and killed every pop every day for a full week until I gave up on trying to get retaliators... I don't mind camping, and I don't even mind not getting the drop. I just hate having to fight over something.

When it comes to MMORPGs, I'm actually very much disdainful of trying to "beat" others" or "compete against" anyone. If NM drops were 100%, I'd just as soon ask everyone else to team up and hang out so everyone gets a drop, and we can all keep each other company and hang out. Its worked before.
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#9 Jul 07 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Never a fan of NM hunting, at least the timer/random pop ones. Only did it out of necessity of the gear they dropped. There is nothing fun about sitting through a 3 hour window hoping to outclaim a bunch of other people, but that's just my opinion. Maybe wouldn't mind it so much if they actually guaranteed the drops on those type of things. For example, felt like a job killing that stupid bird in Rolanberry Fields trying to get boots for people and going almost a whole week with no drop.
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#10 Jul 07 2010 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
I know what you mean about the RMT thing. My favorite hunting grounds for a long time was Davoi. I remember I would show up and have a great time farming Poisonhand and Hawkeyed Dnatbat with my buddy until one day... this odd dragoon showed up wearing the worst gear I've ever seen, but hey whatever it's only 2004 right? Little did I know that this dragoon would stay in that spot day in and day out for the next 3-4 years, and with the same gear. That is when I started seeing more and more information online about RMT and what they do. I was very disappointed that SE couldn't remove these players sooner, because to me it was so blatantly obvious who the RMT were. Anyway, this killed about 75% of the love I had NM hunting in FFXI but luckily I still enjoyed it so much that I still show up from time to time just to give the RMT a run for their money claiming with some /translated put-downs on the side.

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#11 Jul 07 2010 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I loved hunting NM!
Spipi Being my favorite! Last one I ran into was the dhamel in Throngi Canyon(I forget his name.)
I really hope they implement it in 14.
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#12 Jul 07 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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The only way I'd like to see this again is with reasonable pop timers, but honestly I always found it to be a bit annoying.
#13 Jul 07 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Ahhhh, my fondest memories of FFXI were hunting Leaping Lizzy and the Valkurm Emperor. I ws so enamored with getting these guys I researched, tested and researched some more until I honed in on the best possible job combo to camp these guys with. When I finally had my BST/THF high enough I would spend anywhere from three to 10 hours at a time camping these guys. I pretty much had it down to a science and could beat any RMT as long as it didn't pop right in their face.

Spamming widescan for hours before finally seeing that out-of-place name on the list wedged two other Rock Lizards..... "Leaping Lizzy" - it jumped out like flashing neon lights and always made my heart skip a beat as I escaped widescan and mashed my flee macro. Ahh, the good ole days.

I know a lot of poeple hated me for enjoying this aspect of the game so much, but for everyone else (who understood economics) you're thanks was much appreciated. I managed to keep the AH full for all of those well to do adventurers that just had to have the coolest level 7 boots, or level 20 hairpin, in the game (or was it level 18? whatever).

I suppose it was a good thing overall when they changed the drops to r/e. I quit camping for awhile, but would frequently return and camp them just for the **** of it even though I had long since obtained both drops. It was always fun hodling Lizzy or VE while someone cussed at me.... and then inviting them to give them the drop. Not sure why I liked tormenting people's emotions that way.

I suspect I won't be as enamored with the NM's in FFXIV since I really never gave a rats *** about the newer NM's in FFXI as the game evolved. There was just something about Lizzy and the Emperor that always hit home and gave me that nostalgic FFXI feeling every time I went back to camp them. In fact, talking about it now makes me want ot re-install the game and fire up my account just for a few final camping sessions before saying goodbye one last time.

#14 Jul 07 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
I always thought RNG/THF was a better combo :P

Valkrum Emperor was my primary source of income until they made it rare ex. I was very good at camping him.


I do hope they have rares again, but I hope the respawn timer is a lot more random. No more regular windows to camp.
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#15 Jul 07 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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One of the best feats I have is getting me and 3 friends Joytoy. I was the one that camped it and called them in. I was down there for 4 days straight, but it was worth it. When finished I gave the TOD to the guy that kept coming around and seeing me, he didn't try to fight me for it, very nice of him.

I didn't just stand around and do nothing, I kept busy with stuff irl until the pop windows were up :P
#16 Jul 07 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia wrote:

This is one of those weird things which is only fun at first.

I love wandering around and running into an NM I've never heard of, fighting it not knowing what it drops, and maybe getting something nice, maybe not.

The actual "Standing in one place and waiting for something to pop, and hoping to outclaim 3 other people" thing I could do without.


Big time agreement here. NM *hunting* isn't really hunting at all - it's *camping*. I would be perfectly happy if they left this out of the game entirely and instead put the top tier gear at the end of difficult group dungeons or progression lines like ZNM.

Let the days of the claimbot die with XI, thanks.
#17 Jul 07 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Default
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I loved NM hunting and I hope it returns in some form or fashion in FFXIV. It makes the open world feel more alive and wonderful. I would like most NMs to have the ability to pop anywhere in the zone this time around though, instead of only being able to pop in a small area. I will be seriously disappointed if everything special has to come from an instanced area, with that being your goal every time. I don't know how many times I have stumbled across NMs (in FFXI) while just walking through a zone, with no goal in mind. It was always a possibility even if there were campers at the spot. Heck I got an okote once just by checking the area for a split second on my up to help a friend with his coffer, and he just happened to spawn right in front of me as I checked the area for a split second. Memories like this can never be captured if every single good item has to come by an instanced area with that as your goal.

Not to mention NM hunting was very fun and enjoyable. It was relaxing and you could just chat it up and still feel like you were doing something on the game. Instead of just chatting in Whitegate and feeling like you are literally doing nothing with your time on the game.

I just hope FFXIV has a mixture of content like FFXI had. I think the best thing to have is a mixture of content. Some instanced, some open world, some on a random timer, some forced pop, and some drop rare/ex. A mixture of content would be much better than everything instanced. I remember them saying a long time ago that NMs in zones would be back but most of the HNM stuff would be through the guildleve system, but I can't find the interview.


Edited, Jul 7th 2010 3:29pm by HocusP
#18 Jul 07 2010 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
NM's would be a lot better if they were more random. Random spawn timers, random spawn spots (not just in the same area), and random rare/ex drops. Maybe they could make it so all NM's would drrop something from a list, so that you wouldn't have to camp 1 NM for any certain drop.
#19 Jul 07 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well I guess I don't see the difference between the top tier gear coming from a dungeon your group can do as opposed to coming from some dragon you need to stand around and claimbot on the game's schedule. What I was thinking of was things that already exist in many forms in XI, like Einherjar, Dynamis, Nyzul Isle. I think your hatred of WoW has blinded you to the fact that XI does the same thing too. Is it the use of the word Dungeon that throws people off?

My point was, that the NM *camping* as we know it is far too prone to monopolization and exploitation. You may have gotten lucky and obtained a random O kote - good for you. I know people who went 30+ kills with no drop. That's a lot of wasted time and I don't see those people reminiscing about how much *fun* NM hunting was. Tie top tier gear to meaningful progression. I think we'll see much more of that in XIV.
#20 Jul 07 2010 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:
...
When it comes to MMORPGs, I'm actually very much disdainful of trying to "beat" others" or "compete against" anyone. If NM drops were 100%, I'd just as soon ask everyone else to team up and hang out so everyone gets a drop, and we can all keep each other company and hang out. Its worked before.


Haha yeah, I agree with you. I'm the same way.

I thought it was great fun during those times when everyone would hang out for the entire group to get a drop, like those O.Hat slimes (Hakutaku I think?) and to a lesser extent, the old school LB1 papyrus. I think some of my best in game friendships came from those types of events. At first I dreaded these long camping events, but as time passed and the people grouped together for the event turned out to be good fun, I really didn't mind the long camp session so much and actually started to enjoy it.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 3:32pm by Rhysen
#21 Jul 07 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
My point was, that the NM *camping* as we know it is far too prone to monopolization and exploitation. You may have gotten lucky and obtained a random O kote - good for you. I know people who went 30+ kills with no drop. That's a lot of wasted time and I don't see those people reminiscing about how much *fun* NM hunting was. Tie top tier gear to meaningful progression. I think we'll see much more of that in XIV.


I then went 0/30 on many NMs before, that don't mean its time to whine about it. Plus what do drop rate have to do with this. You can do BCNM 30 times in a row and get all crappy drops and another guy can get all the best drops in 1 run (on FFXI). So I don't think instanced content for SE automatically mean that you are going to get the drop. Instanced however do mean that you have a better chance because you don't have to compete with others.

I have no problems with instanced content, I just don't want every single thing instanced. There could easily be a mixture of content.

Quote:
I think your hatred of WoW has blinded you to the fact that XI does the same thing too. Is it the use of the word Dungeon that throws people off?


I didn't say anything about WoW, all I said is everything doesn't have to be instanced. A real world environment can be far more unpredictable than running the same instance 100 times. Did I enjoy salvage? Yes, same goes for the other events you named but that doesn't mean that every event has to be instanced. Also what does okote have to do with end game events? The game can still have NMs that drop good stuff. The end game events don't have to drop the best gear in complete sets like it is in other games. For instance, the best hand gear for conjurer can easily come from a NM out in the open world, and be rare/ex (just an example). That would still be a NM hunt.


Edited, Jul 7th 2010 3:42pm by HocusP
#22 Jul 07 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I hope all NM drops (gear) is rare/ex - Just as majority of the big drops were changed to in FFXI. I think NMs should also spawn completely randomly, no set time, no set way to get it to spawn, no nothing. This is the only way its fair game, if you're strolling along and you happen to run into X or Y NM - camping NMs (although I enjoyed it at times in FFXI) was more frustrating than anything really.
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#23 Jul 07 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I always loved the rush of hunting/claiming NMs, and the satisfaction of using equipment others didn't have. XD

It was actually a little depressing when Lizzy's boots became EX, and everyone had a pair. I'd level my lower jobs, and she'd just be wandering around without a care in the world. I'd see V. Emperor just flyin' around, too.

Of course, I had some lousy experiences just like everybody else. Western Shadow made me pretty miserable. -.-;
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#24 Jul 07 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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There was at one time talk of implementing instanced zones for NMs. There are other methods that can ensure that everyone at least gets to fight the NM even if they are in different alliances/companies. Forced item pop NM, or quest pop NMs work for this.

The timed spawn window type is frustrating to some. Double-ugh if it doesn't even *have* to spawn. Setting aside an entire evening to go Fafnir hunting, and he's a no show? That is rough for those of us that want to participate, but have limited time. (Let the wife sleep in late, watch the kids all day, earn some game time and then, well, then nothing.)

On the other hand:

I think that SE prefers to make some gear nearly impossible to obtain, so very few people actually ever obtain everything they want.

I have to agree with that. It may be part of what makes FF so epic. In other games you *can* obtain everything you ever wanted. Then what? For most, it's time for a new game.

Two sides to that coin.
#25 Jul 07 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Two quick notes from the french interview I just read (by suron on BG) that applies here, I will quote it.

Quote:
Q: "We remember in FFXI, we'd fight often NMs for equipements, will this system make a come back?"

A: Yes, but nothing is sure as of now, they may work on a repop timers for monsters.


So it looks like NMs in the open world will at least be back. I never said fafnir and all them but it will still be nice to still have some relevant NMs in the open world.

Also

Quote:
Q: "Are there raids planned?"

A: Instanced dungeons are planned and the PVP question was very quickly dealt with, they told us it wasn't to exclude but if anything, it'd be in a really long time. For now, they're still working on a 18 players max format in a group, like FFXI, but depending on Beta testers/players feedback, it could change.


No PvP which we already knew (and I'm happy with) but instanced raids will be included as well, even though we already knew this. There is room for both kinds of content in the game, and it sound like they will again have a mixture of content (which makes me happy).
#26 Jul 07 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ah! Verification on instanced dungeons. Very good! Thanks for posting this.
#27 Jul 07 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
For now, they're still working on a 18 players max format in a group, like FFXI...


What? I'm fairly certain its been set in stone now that 15 players is a max party, and even if they were to make "higher" parties (aka alliances, ala FFXI) they wouldn't only up it by 3 people. Is this info reliable, just curious?
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#28 Jul 07 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tenfooterten wrote:
NM's would be a lot better if they were more random. Random spawn timers, random spawn spots (not just in the same area), and random rare/ex drops. Maybe they could make it so all NM's would drrop something from a list, so that you wouldn't have to camp 1 NM for any certain drop.
Good point. If they want to make it random, make it truly random, none of this having a specific placeholder, in a specific time window in a specific area. The whole intent behind the initial NM's were supposed to be something adventures stumbled upon, not aggressively camped for hours on end but since it was implemented so poorly it was easy for players to figure out the predictable coding behind it.
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#29 Jul 07 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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I almost never did this for myself. I'd go pretty much anytime friends asked for help getting something, but I just couldn't understand the waiting game. A friend of mine hunted NMs all the time. For her, I think it was some kind of zen thing. It was impressive and sad at the same time: she was so good at claiming one NM that RMTs would actually leave the area if she showed up, but so bad at claiming another, that in something like 200 camps, she only claimed once - and that was with a team.

I do hope they have something like them again. While I didn't hunt often, it was still cool to be roaming around and suddenly ...ZOMG!!! Spiny Spipi is here, and no one sees him!!! ^^
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#30 Jul 07 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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If they can avoid creating the sit-wait-and-claim game, then they might have something. Otherwise, I might lose interest in the game very quickly. I am not going to play another game that heavily features camping and claiming elements, nor will I play a game where that's the only way to face certain monsters. If a big part of the endgame requires you to be bored to do something interesting, just forget it.
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#31 Jul 07 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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World spawns with highly valued drops is a very poor idea.. Unless your idea of "competition" is who or which side can link the most bots together to claim it.. When the only relevant thing ends up being the claim, and people are cheating to achieve this, the system has been a categorical failure.
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#32 Jul 07 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
What if they added unique, one time NMs into XIV? It's been done in plenty of other MMOs. EQ2 comes to mind. Mortal Online advertises this too.

The idea of course being an NM would spawn that's never been in the game before, and once it's killed it's gone forever. You could get unique titles from it, and unique gear. They don't have to be overpowered gear, but just nice or even decent. Also, the NMs wouldn't have to always be max level. There could be unique NMs from any level range. No need to restrict to end game.


*edit*

I don't mean this to replace repeat-pop NMs. Just to add a little more flavor to NM hunting.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 2:28pm by Osarion
#33 Jul 07 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
World spawns with highly valued drops is a very poor idea.. Unless your idea of "competition" is who or which side can link the most bots together to claim it.. When the only relevant thing ends up being the claim, and people are cheating to achieve this, the system has been a categorical failure.


I'm so sick of hearing bots as the biggest excuse. Yes they sucked, and yes no person wants to feel like they are getting cheat, I get that. But, I claimed (and many others) just well on a console, and the only advantage a bot really gave over a person that didn't bot was it erased human error. If you was good at claiming you could still claim stuff over bots very often. Most of the time the people that claimed were not even botting, and you would just call them botters because you were angry.

This is a common thing that happens when players lose a competition to other players, in this case it was a claim, but it could be in many things. For example in other games like socom (a shooting game), when you beat people, they come up with every excuse in the book. Excuses vary from you were lag switching (which nobody else in the room even notice you lag once), to you are using some kind of auto head shot cheat that is aiming for you (when of course nothing like this even exist). I have heard it all and it usually comes from sore loser who just had they feelings hurt that they just lost, so they respond like a child instead of an adult. I mean literally after every single win on socom you get a sore loser calling you a cheater some way some how. Instead of just realizing you got legitimately out-claimed you result in calling them a botter because in your mind that is the only way they can claim over you.

The point is I don't think SE should exclude content just because a few people tries to ruin it. They should patrol the NM camps more and ban more people instead of just excluding content because of a few bad seeds.

Quote:
What? I'm fairly certain its been set in stone now that 15 players is a max party, and even if they were to make "higher" parties (aka alliances, ala FFXI) they wouldn't only up it by 3 people. Is this info reliable, just curious?


The interview is from the Japan Expo which is a French event. The number currently is 15 in the guildleves but that isn't set in stone, they are still taking feedback and will get feedback from the beta.



Edited, Jul 7th 2010 5:25pm by HocusP
#34 Jul 07 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Coyohma wrote:
World spawns with highly valued drops is a very poor idea..
I absolutely agree. I have no reservations about NM's, the problem I have is the gear they dropped. It comes down to one thing. You put the absolute best items on these things, and you create the same problems that plagued FFXI. Majority of the playerbase will never even have an opportunity to fight some of these monsters because the same small amount of people will make sure and monopolize them. Let's face it, none of these people who "enjoyed" hunting the NM itself, they were getting off on hunting the gear because of it's worth. (Did the leaping lizzy camper continue to do so once it went rare/ex?) If it was simply about killing special named monsters, then why is Jorm constantly wandering around untouched, but his brother in Attowha Chasm camped religiously?

Put NMs in the game, but don't put the end-all-be-all gear on them. Make them simply a trophy kill.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 4:38pm by Harri
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#35 Jul 07 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
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I'll say what I said earlier elsewhere. What happened in XI was like parents trying to buy a Tickle Me Elmo (or Furby) before Xmas. You end up with a bottlenecked product and a looong line of people waiting to get it. Except for a nice orderly line, it's cutthroat chaos, typically rewarding the ones who are willing to resort to dirty tactics.

It's just a fundamentally flawed concept. And most of your players subscribe to your game to kill ****, not compete for a chance to get to kill ****.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#36 Jul 07 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I loved the way NMs were originally in FFXI...but only certain ones. It's no fun trying to camp those NMs that basically only spawn in one location and the only way to get them is to sit there all day spamming your fastest ability.

When I played FFXI though I made all of my gil through camping NMs. Mostly it was the emperor or leaping lizzy that made my gil but I often times would hit other NMs like Mee Deggi or Hoo Mjuu. Mainly it's really fun if you have a relatively large area to cover as long as the area isn't packed with others (had to know what time to head on over) and to be honest I'm fine with it not dropping all the time. If you had a 100% drop rate the excitement and suspense is over as soon as you make the claim but if it's still relatively infrequent to get the drop not only do you get the excitement prior to your NM of choice spawning and prior to your claiming of him but also prior to his defeat.

And as for RMT...you really didn't have any problems with these types of NMs since it actually takes time, some skill and a bit of intuition in order to really nail down these NMs...none of which RMT have much of...especially if you're just up against bots (argus! I swear, I only tried him twice and gave up, resigned to the fact that the only ones who get him are bots).
#37 Jul 07 2010 at 7:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If you had a 100% drop rate the excitement and suspense is over as soon as you make the claim but if it's still relatively infrequent to get the drop not only do you get the excitement prior to your NM of choice spawning and prior to your claiming of him but also prior to his defeat.


That was another of XI's big flaws. The challenge that earns you the reward in this type of game is SUPPOSED to be actually downing the big bad monster. When you already know that the monster is a total goner and all of the challenge and suspense comes from beating others to the claim, what you have is some of the gaming world's lamest PvP ever.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 Jul 07 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Default
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Some people like NMs, some don't, and some are indifferent.

The ones that liked them liked them for what they are. A type of race, competition, rush, heart beating fast, shaky hands, and OMG!!!! gratification when you've done well. It's a hunt. I believe that it should have a reward. The reward should be based on the drop rate though. 100% drop rate could be a title or other easily found item. I don't know exactly what FFXI liked to use as a drop rate but it wasn't much. 1% would be a high estimate for FFXI. I think it's probably less. With a 1% drop rate the reward should be substantial.

The ones that don't like NMs are the ones that think they should get the reward without having to hunt the mob. If you don't like the hunt, don't hunt. If you want that reward then you're going to have to hunt, but don't ruin it for those that do enjoy it. It's not right for people to get bashed and rated down for expressing their opinion on a subject just because you don't agree.

The ones that are indifferent probably either don't have a problem with the hunt, get lucky on drop rates, or just don't bother with it because they know they wouldn't like it. They know they wouldn't like it, and instead of trying to convince everybody else that it's a bad system they find something else to do with their time. Something that they do like.

FFXI could have gone about it a little differently to reduce the stress but they shouldn't eliminate the competition. They shouldn't make all desirable content instanced because some people don't like competition. They shouldn't even make all desirable rewards available to 100% of the population. What makes something special? It's uniqueness. There's a saying. If everybody is special, no one is. Really, what's special about being just like everybody else?

What I think they should do is provide an alternate method of obtaining comparable reward. That way, people that don't like NM hunting don't have to hunt. Added bonus is that those that do like NM hunting would no longer have to listen to those that don't. They should not eliminate an entire aspect of a game just because some people don't like it.

They could make the rewards unavailable for purchase by making it bind. They could make instanced NMs with comparable reward to open world NMs for those that like that route. They can make instanced raid content for those that like that. They can do a lot to provide what people want.

The bottom line though, is that there will be someone that wants the particular item that a NM has and will complain to the high heavens that he has to give it some effort. Even if there is a comparable item obtainable from something else.

I've got an idea, to reduce competition, lets put all high end gear in a cash shop and just let people buy it so they don't even have to play the game...

I'm sure most can agree that that is not what they want, and neither do I.
#39 Jul 07 2010 at 8:09 PM Rating: Decent
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The competition of claiming NMs in XI stinks to high heaven. It's possibly the lamest competition in a game that people still play today. These are PVE games for a reason-- they're supposed to foster cooperation. If you want to compete, god, there are a thousand better games for that. Namely every other MMO, every fighting game, racing games, FPS... god, pick something, but for the love of god, pick something other than FFXIV.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#40 Jul 07 2010 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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It's barely competition. It's a race, not PK.

With Rare/Ex/BoP the botters and RMT become much less of a problem.

I didn't camp NMs just to camp them. I camped because they had a reward I wanted, and when I got it I stopped camping. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it.


In fact, I enjoy camping a NM with one or two friends over having to put together 20 people to run a raid to get a chance at the thing I wanted dropping. If it dropped I then get a chance of getting it because 5+ other people there want it too.

Really, there doesn't seem to be a big difference between the methods except the number of people required to get it done. At a popular NM there might well be 20 people there and we're in competition for the item. In a raid there might be 20 people there and we're still in competition for the item.

Some people like that, but I don't. They've already said NMs will be included though so I'm satisfied at least until I know how they're implemented.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 10:16pm by Nalamwen

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 10:18pm by Nalamwen
#41 Jul 07 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
The competition of claiming NMs in XI stinks to high heaven. It's possibly the lamest competition in a game that people still play today. These are PVE games for a reason-- they're supposed to foster cooperation. If you want to compete, god, there are a thousand better games for that. Namely every other MMO, every fighting game, racing games, FPS... god, pick something, but for the love of god, pick something other than FFXIV.


I sort of disagree, more out of principle than in this actual case. Mainly because who are you to say where and when competition should be? Just because you don't want it doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.

Anyway, I wasn't a big fan of competition in NM hunting mainly because I did it for the gil so the fewer the better but to be honest the exhilaration wouldn't have been there nearly as much if there weren't at least a bit of competition. Indeed, sometimes I was the only one hunting and while I was still happy to get the drop I didn't have as much fun as I could have had if I had competition. Too much, though, and I would get frustrated and leave (ultimately I learned when too much was too much and just didn't bother hunting when that occured).
#42 Jul 07 2010 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I think I've already made my point about why that kind of competition doesn't belong in XIV, or for that matter in XI.

You pick up an MMO to kill ****. Not to compete for a chance to kill ****. The challenge is supposed to be in downing the enemy, not in being the first one to the enemy. Disagreeing with that and wanting something different is fine, but it's not something you should wish on a subscription based game that you want to actually do well.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#43 Jul 07 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
I think I've already made my point about why that kind of competition doesn't belong in XIV, or for that matter in XI.

You pick up an MMO to kill sh*t. Not to compete for a chance to kill sh*t. The challenge is supposed to be in downing the enemy, not in being the first one to the enemy. Disagreeing with that and wanting something different is fine, but it's not something you should wish on a subscription based game that you want to actually do well.


I don't mean to be a jerk but that's why YOU pick up MMOs. Others might do it for completely different reason. Personally if I just wanted to kill stuff I'd just play Diablo II or Torchlight (and I sometimes do). MMOs, for me, have many other things that I rate at a higher priority...if there's a competition for the enemy and it works well in the game I'm down with it.
#44 Jul 07 2010 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Whether one likes or dislikes "competition" here doesn't really factor in, to me. The main reason I take issue with it is because unlike other content, it's so susceptible to being compromised. Contrary to what HocusP believes, botting does factor into your claiming chances. In a 1-on-1 situation, the botting advantage may not be insurmountable, but it is real. In a large scale situation, where many bots are linked together and the people using them know what they're doing, it's nearly impossible to claim. Certainly to the point where it's clear that you're wasting your time trying to claim it legitimately.

And no HocusP, I do not favor this opinion because I've been spurned by a NM/item. I was able to obtain every Rare/Ex drop I wanted in XI.

I like running into a rare mob as much as anyone (or the rush when you claim a contested target), but common sense tells us that when cheaters have the power, it must be changed. Either a) it must be removed entirely, or b) it must be altered so you're not greatly rewarding people for cheating.

My simplistic idea would be to at least have the NM surrender more exp and more of its normal drops, compared to its NQ counterpart. 1,000 exp and 5 drops, instead of 200 and 1, for e.g. You can take this and go different ways, but one thing is clear: when you give world spawns some of the best items in the game, the botters will monopolize them. If you disagree with this, I must assume you haven't seen how the Aery works in XI.

Sure, the WotG world spawn HNM are an improvement, in that they spawn in different zones/zone locations. However, those willing to cheat still have the upper hand. A group using DS scanners competing against a group that isn't will claim much more often, everything else being equal. This is still a serious problem.

Osarion's one-time NM idea is interesting.. Perhaps a step in the right direction.
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#45 Jul 07 2010 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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I am hoping for a dual system for NM - random and trigger spawned.

It was fun to run across a different mob (hello Sea Horror) and try to solo it, get pwned, then bring your friends back to beat it and screenshot the experience.

But I wouldn't want that for every NM - for example, the beauty of ISNM (let's pick the Phantasmal Puk as an example) was that, whilst there was a limit to how many times you could attempt it within a specified time frame, at least you weren't literally fighting with the rest of the server to try and get its rewards. In that case, you'd have one winner and a whole bunch of losers - it should be a win-win situation for everyone who plays really.
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#46 Jul 07 2010 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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I don't mind camping mobs when the drop rate isn't ridiculously low... ie: not FFXI. When you have like a 1 in 5 chance of even claiming the mob, and have to kill the mob 20+ times to get the drop... and it's a couple hours ordeal for a single spawn... yea, that starts to slightly suck after a while. Forgive me if I can't get excited about that anymore.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 11:19pm by xXMalevolenceXx
#47 Jul 07 2010 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I always thought RNG/THF was a better combo :P


Nah, I camped with rng/thf for a long time and it pales in comparison. Charm is just as fast and Shadowbind or anything else out there. The main problem with Ranger was that widescan was too big. BST widescan was perfect. It could reach edge to edge of the VE zone, with the list of mobs 4 times smaller than rng. Scanning was much faster.

The only other job I used on Lizzy was lvl 25 thf/rng. Rangers lvl 1 widescan was perfect for the Lizzy camp (much smaller than VE camp) and throwing darts on THF actually worked pretty good once you got the timing down. If you could stop at the edge of the max range on the dart you could literally throw it over someone in front of you that was claiming with steal or something else requiring close range.



Edited, Jul 8th 2010 12:03am by Mithsavvy
#48 Jul 07 2010 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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30m-1hr spawn times.
100% drop rate.
Rare/Ex would make me happy.
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#49 Jul 07 2010 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

I don't mean to be a jerk but that's why YOU pick up MMOs.


That's why 99% of players pick up an MMO. It's not like I'm the weird one for picking up a game that pretty much by definition has its primary purpose as "kill monsters with friends," and thinking that it would suck if I had to compete heavily with others for a chance to fight a lot of the cooler and more desirable monsters.

Considering most of the players in XI didn't even like it, I'd say that's an extremely niche demographic. Now, something for everybody and all that, sure. But a resounding "NO, GTFO," to anyone who thinks that should be the only or best way to get to do those fights and get their drops. And I really doubt that those things retain their appeal when they aren't the best/only way, but if they do, then enjoy by all means.

Quote:
30m-1hr spawn times.
100% drop rate.
Rare/Ex would make me happy.


If the battles are challenging, I could deal with this.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 10:46pm by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#50 Jul 08 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Whether one likes or dislikes "competition" here doesn't really factor in, to me. The main reason I take issue with it is because unlike other content, it's so susceptible to being compromised. Contrary to what HocusP believes, botting does factor into your claiming chances. In a 1-on-1 situation, the botting advantage may not be insurmountable, but it is real. In a large scale situation, where many bots are linked together and the people using them know what they're doing, it's nearly impossible to claim. Certainly to the point where it's clear that you're wasting your time trying to claim it legitimately.


First of all it never became impossible to claim if you understood how claiming actually worked (which I don't think you do). There was a gray area after a mob popd, that no one is able to claim the mob (if u cast to early your move doesn't go off). All bots did was know the exact time it took after a NM popd to wait, and then auto targeted the mob and used there fastest ability. This took the human error (of casting too fast) out of it and in sense gave botters an advantage (advantage yes, anywhere near impossible no). This however didn't make it impossible to claim anything if you knew how to claim. It became mental knowledge, I knew to wait a split tenth of a second before I let off that stun, which would out claim botters a fair amount of the time. People that thinks its impossible to out claim botters either don't understand the claiming system, or just suck at it.

Quote:
The competition of claiming NMs in XI stinks to high heaven. It's possibly the lamest competition in a game that people still play today. These are PVE games for a reason-- they're supposed to foster cooperation. If you want to compete, god, there are a thousand better games for that. Namely every other MMO, every fighting game, racing games, FPS... god, pick something, but for the love of god, pick something other than FFXIV.


Yes you should be the one to tell people where there should or should not be competition. There is more to competition then just killing people.

Quote:
I think I've already made my point about why that kind of competition doesn't belong in XIV, or for that matter in XI.

You pick up an MMO to kill sh*t. Not to compete for a chance to kill sh*t. The challenge is supposed to be in downing the enemy, not in being the first one to the enemy. Disagreeing with that and wanting something different is fine, but it's not something you should wish on a subscription based game that you want to actually do well.


No, you pick up MMOs to kill sh*t. People pick up MMOs for a number of reason. I guess the people that just plan on playing the crafting classes do not count. The people that mainly pick up MMOs for the social atmosphere do not count. Its a number of reasons people pick up MMOs, and in the NM hunt you are still killing stuff, you just have to claim it first.

They already said NMs will be in the game, to what extent will be found out at a later date. They already mentioned random times as well. I hope they don't give in and make stuff 100 % drop rates. It mines well drop from a normal mob if its going to be 100 % drop rate. Its no longer special anymore if every single person on the server has it.


Edited, Jul 8th 2010 2:35am by HocusP
#51 Jul 08 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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I wasn't trying to start an argument. I quote myself.


Quote:
What I think they should do is provide an alternate method of obtaining comparable reward.


If you can get something comparable by other means then there's no reason for you to go through the torture it is to hunt a NM. There will always be those few people that just simply must have that item because they must. OCD or what have you, they will be there. But, those that don't feel the need, and don't enjoy the hunt, could have a different way to get something similar enough that any difference wouldn't matter.

I didn't say it was the only way any desired drop should ever be gotten. I just said it shouldn't be eliminated because some people feel so strongly that it's a bad system.

I would have no problem with the desired drops binding to who it drops to, making it unable to be sold. If you can't sell it there would be far less competition. Almost nobody would camp it after they have what they want. Sure, some people would "kill sh*t with their friends" to help a friend get the drop.

Some people would still create and use bots for NMs. I don't see why they would camp the NM after they got the drop though except to help friends. Of course there are always people out there that want nothing more than to be a pain in the ***. But that's when GMs should step in. Here's to hoping for good customer service in FFXIV.

I could just as easily say anything that anyone enjoys that I don't is a niche, because only some people like it. We're all biased. The point is to not expect other people to agree with only our own opinion.
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