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#152 Aug 09 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Eske, Star Breaker wrote:
Majivo wrote:
It's not a fallacy to point out cause and effect. If someone happened to mention they were female and got harassed, then his post would be blaming the victim. Coming into the place and yelling I'M A FEMALE AND THAT SURE IS SOMETHING SPECIAL is just plain obnoxious right off the bat. In this case, it definitely is their fault.


Is that the case here? The fact that you have to use such exaggeration only serves to invalidate your assertion.

"The fact that you defend your point invalidates your point"? And you accused us of resorting to fallacies? Hint: a particular method of defending a viewpoint can be wrong without automatically making the viewpoint wrong. If you can't make that elementary distinction, don't accuse other people of resorting to fallacies. Besides which, my exaggeration was minor at best.

And regardless of whether that's the case here, I was speaking in general. If you willingly put yourself in a situation that you know precipitates such actions, that's one thing. I'm not saying women shouldn't be gamers. But if you go into a game and yell HEY GUYS I'M A GIRL!!! and expect that you won't get completely typical responses, you're just a moron. It's the same thing if I went to the FFXI boards and started ranting about how it's such a horrible game and they're all idiots for playing it. By your logic, I shouldn't be to blame for this because after all, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

Fact: flame-baiting is flame-baiting regardless of how unjust the subject at hand is. Is it right that female gamers tend to get harassed by idiots? **** no. But if you know this to be the case and publicly try to get the word to notice that detail about you, you can't later act surprised at what happens. That's not blaming the victim, it's asking for common sense.
#153 Aug 09 2010 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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KassiraBB wrote:
I find it that the girls that have the constant need to act clearly like a girl, or state they are a girl all the time are the most annoying and problem making ones. Sometimes there are creeps that will do weird things, but some of the girls will not give a crap, and some will complain about it constantly.


This is what I'm talking about. You hate it when girls act like girls? What on earth are they supposed to act like? Its who they are!
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#154 Aug 09 2010 at 10:46 PM Rating: Decent
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saying you are a girl is not "flame-baiting." For crikes sake.
#155 Aug 09 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
saying you are a girl is not "flame-baiting." For crikes sake.

No, it's not. I have no issue with girls being girls - what else could they be, after all? All I'm talking about is the people - some of whom are undoubtedly men, sadly - who insist on making it the emphasis of everything they do or talk about. Case in point, the OP of one of our other threads who was asking for building advice and at the end threw out "I'm just a poor girl gamer, teehee". How is that in any way relevant or necessary? It only serves to try and use negative stereotypes to their advantage. That right there is flamebaiting. Acknowledging your gender is perfectly okay. I think that point got lost in my last post.
#156 Aug 09 2010 at 10:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Everyone assumes pretty much everyone - no matter what gender their avatar is - is a guy. Why should women have to be invisible to avoid harrassment?
#157 Aug 09 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Are you reading what I write? I specifically said that was not the case.
#158 Aug 09 2010 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
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Majivo wrote:
Eske, Star Breaker wrote:
Majivo wrote:
It's not a fallacy to point out cause and effect. If someone happened to mention they were female and got harassed, then his post would be blaming the victim. Coming into the place and yelling I'M A FEMALE AND THAT SURE IS SOMETHING SPECIAL is just plain obnoxious right off the bat. In this case, it definitely is their fault.


Is that the case here? The fact that you have to use such exaggeration only serves to invalidate your assertion.

"The fact that you defend your point invalidates your point"? And you accused us of resorting to fallacies? Hint: a particular method of defending a viewpoint can be wrong without automatically making the viewpoint wrong. If you can't make that elementary distinction, don't accuse other people of resorting to fallacies. Besides which, my exaggeration was minor at best.

And regardless of whether that's the case here, I was speaking in general. If you willingly put yourself in a situation that you know precipitates such actions, that's one thing. I'm not saying women shouldn't be gamers. But if you go into a game and yell HEY GUYS I'M A GIRL!!! and expect that you won't get completely typical responses, you're just a moron. It's the same thing if I went to the FFXI boards and started ranting about how it's such a horrible game and they're all idiots for playing it. By your logic, I shouldn't be to blame for this because after all, everyone's entitled to an opinion.

Fact: flame-baiting is flame-baiting regardless of how unjust the subject at hand is. Is it right that female gamers tend to get harassed by idiots? **** no. But if you know this to be the case and publicly try to get the word to notice that detail about you, you can't later act surprised at what happens. That's not blaming the victim, it's asking for common sense.


You've lost track of the context that you're speaking in. You responded to my post, which in turn was chiding someone who accused the OP of "putting up a banner". Your defense of his position implies that you agree with his point that I was contesting: that saying that you're female invites harassment. The OP did nothing wrong. That others keep implying some sort of "attention-whoring" is at best a strawman, and at worst serious misogynistic bias.
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#159 Aug 09 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I am reading what you write - actually.

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But if you go into a game and yell HEY GUYS I'M A GIRL!!! and expect that you won't get completely typical responses, you're just a moron.


What is a typical response? And if this typical response is idiotic, why not attack it at the source? If people are sexually harrassing people we should be censoring those who are having that response, not saying 'oh well she asked for it by letting people know she was a girl'.

Those "completely typical responses" are only completely typical because of complacency in the community. There are a lot of great guys out there - and on this board specifically. Heck, you may even be one of them. But guys need to take responsibility for how they act and demand their peers do the same.
#160 Aug 09 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske - you're right that I lost track of context in there, especially since I never quoted your post so I wasn't reading it for reference in my later replies. Sorry if I blew up a bit, I really hate the "your argument is proof that you're wrong" thing. I still think what I said holds in a more general context, but you are right that the OP of this thread was not in the wrong.

Quote:
What is a typical response? And if this typical response is idiotic, why not attack it at the source? If people are sexually harrassing people we should be censoring those who are having that response, not saying 'oh well she asked for it by letting people know she was a girl'.

Those "completely typical responses" are only completely typical because of complacency in the community. There are a lot of great guys out there - and on this board specifically. Heck, you may even be one of them. But guys need to take responsibility for how they act and demand their peers do the same.

I would love if the typical response would change, and I think that it's slowing starting to do so as female gamers become more commonplace. If you're deliberating provoking such a response just to get it to change, then you don't fall into the category I'm talking about. The thing is, though, that yes, what's seen as typical quite frankly sucks, and it isn't how things should be. But it's how things are, so if you make a big deal out of your gender and then get these responses, and somehow manage to be surprised by this, you've got to be pretty much a moron.

It's like if I were wearing a jacket made out of 100 dollar bills and decided to go for a stroll in downtown Detroit at two AM. Yes, ideally, we would live in a society where I'm not going to mugged and probably killed; but until we're in that society, I'm a ******* idiot. Unless, of course, I'm secretly Superman, and doing this specifically to try and improve the society that we're living in. In which case I'm probably still an idiot because there's got to be better ways than this, but at least I'm not dead.

When someone in-game tells me they're female, I mark a mental checkbox that says "use female pronouns for this person" and then move on. Some people haven't got the maturity to leave it at that, and some people like to make a huge issue of things by being overly dramatic about their gender. It's like if you've ever been in a linkshell with that one guy who insists on letting you know how religious he is. Every chance he gets he just has to drop a hint about how much he loooves Jesus, and even though you have nothing against Christians in general, eventually you're dreaming of throttling this guy and burying the corpse in lye.
#161 Aug 09 2010 at 11:35 PM Rating: Good
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@ Majivo:

It's okay. And I appreciate your response; the ability to aknowledge one's mistakes is a rarity on forums.

I understand the spirit of what you're saying, I do. But I hope you'll come to appreciate the nuances of this subject, as it has very serious implication when it comes to sexual harassment and rape. I invit you to read the wikipedia article for a nice summary:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming?wasRedirected=true

In your example, it does not matter in the united states if you're wearing a suit made of bills. If someone mugs or kills you, they have commited the corresponding crime, and are 100% at fault. You are guilty of very poor judgement certainly, but no more. To cast blame for the crime on the victim is to partially absolve others of their misdeeds. I cannot tolerate that on any level.

I wish I could explain better, but its late and I have to fly out for my very first job interview tommorow. I do think the wikipedia article sums things up well, and I strongly encourage everyone to read it, guys and girls alike. Majivo, I'm sorry for singling you out, please know that I don't mean to.

I'll try to get online for a bit tommorow if I can. Wish me luck! :P

Cheers,

Eske
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#162 Aug 09 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the difference is that I can blame both parties to different degrees without absolving the aggressor, in my mind. I will read through it, though.

And good luck with the interview. Don't waste any more time here if you need to sleep before that comes up Smiley: tongue

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 12:39am by Majivo
#163 Aug 10 2010 at 2:09 AM Rating: Good
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"Your honor, that girl deserved what the rapist did to her! Did you see that mini-skirt?!"

That's kind of the awkward context I'm getting from some. Yeah yeah, internet anonymity allows for douchebaggery, and white knighting against it is typically scoffed, but I'm wondering where the line of individuality and homogenization should be drawn. Should programs alter all gender pronouns to neutral versions? Should we ban feminine words in handles like "Flower" or "Girl"? Wanting to be identifiable isn't a bad thing, particularly in an environment where seem to value reputation. Why do I get the feeling it's better to jack a Dynamis zone, admit to hacking/RMTing, or something in XI than admit you're a girl, though?

I dunno, maybe this is some kind of peculiar look into the past before women's rights movements and such. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to shut up, get in the kitchen, and make you a sammich. Want a cold beer, too?
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#164 Aug 10 2010 at 2:18 AM Rating: Good
Interrupting the debate for just a moment here...

Haven't seen you 'round these parts in a while Seriha. Good to see ya back Smiley: cool
#165 Aug 10 2010 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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Personally, I think its the girls that hate it when girls act like girls that are the problem. Not that I try to act all cutesy or flirt with an entire linkshell like some girls do, but the ones that get upset about girls that act this way are the ones acting catty, causing linkshell drama.
Enjoy the game, have fun, don't try to school people on how to act... we don't need the drama.
#166 Aug 10 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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It's like if you've ever been in a linkshell with that one guy who insists on letting you know how religious he is. Every chance he gets he just has to drop a hint about how much he loooves Jesus, and even though you have nothing against Christians in general, eventually you're dreaming of throttling this guy and burying the corpse in lye.


this made me lol.

+1

That said - being a girl is not at all like being a christian - given the fact that *** isn't really a choice ... but I guess I can see what you are saying. Although I still disagree to a certain extent because what is being lost here is the fact that men take it for granted that they can "act like men" without feeling like they are harrassing people with it or making a big deal of it.

Like I've been in linkshells where there are a lot of (good natured) ***** jokes and {pentathrust} {mithra} {hole} joking around going on ... and I really don't think the guys doing it felt like they were screaming about their gender but - really - that IS what they were doing - but because the whole gaming thing is pretty male-centric, no one considers that out of the ordinary or whatever.

So I totally disagree that women should have to be quiet about their gender. If you are in a linkshell where people talk about their lives - well - gendered things are going to come up.

Yeah, I don't like the flirtiness much sometimes because I think it is stupid - but it happens on both sides - it isn't like girls are just like OHHH LOVE ME LOVE ME TEE HEE HEE and guys are just innocent victims - I've been hit on tons without being flirty in the slightest - just because my gender is known. It doesn't bother me much - but I have absolutely no interest - because frankly - it is dumb... lol



Edited, Aug 10th 2010 9:56am by Olorinus
#167 Aug 10 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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AGAIN if she did NOT say she was female, her post would sound like a perverted man excited to play with girls.
she stated her gender in a manner to avoid this, but you have the logic of, shes a girl, its her fault she got raped, if she was born male, it would be different.

Knock off this sexist BS already.
#168 Aug 10 2010 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I am curious, how common is the 'common response to girls' that people are talking about? I would guess that almost everyone that has played with me in FFXI, LotrO or Warhammer figured out quickly that I was female. Either because I made a comment about my husband or as a friend told me, I sound like a girl.

In four years of playing MMOs, I have had one bad encounter. A kin member sent my elf champ a dress and I thanked them and never thought about it, because most members of that kin freely shared stuff that they did not want. A few weeks went by and he started making comments in kinchat that he wanted to see me running around Bree naked again (this did not happen) and how he really wanted to spend more time with me getting to 'know' each other. I will not repeat some of the more graphic things he said. This occurred during a kin roleplaying event, so he may have been roleplaying but it was not 'in-character' for the established relationship between the characters who did not know each other well. The result was that I was shocked and the officers in the kin were offended enough that he was put on probation. The next time I logged on to that character, the other member made a point to make a snotty comment and then drop the kinship.

The point I was trying to make is that, from my perspective, it is more uncommon for someone to be disrespectful.
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#169 Aug 10 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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I love how the past 50-100 replies in this thread has devolved into arguing over whether or not the OP should have mentioned their gender in the OP.
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#170 Aug 10 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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NerdyGirl wrote:
I am curious, how common is the 'common response to girls' that people are talking about? I would guess that almost everyone that has played with me in FFXI, LotrO or Warhammer figured out quickly that I was female. Either because I made a comment about my husband or as a friend told me, I sound like a girl.

In four years of playing MMOs, I have had one bad encounter. A kin member sent my elf champ a dress and I thanked them and never thought about it, because most members of that kin freely shared stuff that they did not want. A few weeks went by and he started making comments in kinchat that he wanted to see me running around Bree naked again (this did not happen) and how he really wanted to spend more time with me getting to 'know' each other. I will not repeat some of the more graphic things he said. This occurred during a kin roleplaying event, so he may have been roleplaying but it was not 'in-character' for the established relationship between the characters who did not know each other well. The result was that I was shocked and the officers in the kin were offended enough that he was put on probation. The next time I logged on to that character, the other member made a point to make a snotty comment and then drop the kinship.

The point I was trying to make is that, from my perspective, it is more uncommon for someone to be disrespectful.


I was in the same guild in WoW for... well, since launch until a month ago. Our membership fluctuated over time, but the % of females was probably any where between 20% and 40% at any given moment. For the most part the only time I saw a hostile reaction to a woman because she was a woman was after the fact. On a couple of occasions we had some drama, and because the drama involved an attractive, unattached female, some people allowed their hormones to get the best of them and took sides in situations that didn't really involve them. Said females generally ended up leaving the guild (in some cases with an admirer or two in tow). In those cases, the females were typically seen as the main culprits for encouraging bad behavior from people who would not have complied if the request had come from a female.

We had maybe three members ever who really expressed open hostility to the idea of females in the guild. Two of them were told "shape up or you'll be booted." One of those reformed his ways, the other said "F YOU, I'm OUT OF HERE." The third guy was a charter member of the guild who discovered the religion of misogyny suddenly after 5 years of being fairly normal. It made people extremely uncomfortable, and caused a very popular husband and wife tandem to leave the guild. For whatever reason that player quit WoW around the same time I did, several months after the fact.

So out of probably 150-200 people in a guild over the course of 5 1/2 years, we had two or three drama whores, and two or three people who had an outright problem with the general concept of females in the guild, and other than that, people got along or didn't get along mostly on the basis of personality rather than gender. I don't know if that counts as widespread or not. If 10% of the females were stereotypes for the attention seeking female and 90% fell within the bounds of normal guild behavior, it's hard to blame their issues on gender. Gender just exacerbated issues that already existed.

I think in our case it helped that our original guild leader was female, and some of our earliest officers were female, so the tone was set right from the start that even though the majority were male, the ladies weren't going to be second citizens.

Mikhalia wrote:
I love how the past 50-100 replies in this thread has devolved into arguing over whether or not the OP should have mentioned their gender in the OP.


Well I think that from now on we should all just randomly claim to be female in some of our posts, and see where that leads. It could be a game of "how much karma and/or free loot can I get before it gets TOO creepy?"

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 3:26pm by KarlHungis

Edited, Aug 10th 2010 3:31pm by KarlHungis
#171 Aug 10 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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I know I get annoyed with some people who constantly feel the need to announce something about themselves that causes seperation...sometimes coming off as superior because of it. Like majivo mentioned, religion's the big one that bugs me there. To constantly bring it up is unnecessary and quickly gets annoying. I'm all for knocking down walls of division, not building them up. So I 'kind of' see that argument here, but I don't think it works the same for someone's ***. Must be the whole, "ya don't choose the way you're born" thing I guess.
#172 Aug 10 2010 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
I know I get annoyed with some people who constantly feel the need to announce something about themselves that causes seperation...sometimes coming off as superior because of it. Like majivo mentioned, religion's the big one that bugs me there. To constantly bring it up is unnecessary and quickly gets annoying. I'm all for knocking down walls of division, not building them up. So I 'kind of' see that argument here, but I don't think it works the same for someone's ***. Must be the whole, "ya don't choose the way you're born" thing I guess.


It's just a matter of degree. I knew a girl way back in high school who was probably a closet *******, but had almost nothing to say about anything that didn't involve the way that (in her opinion) women were just superior to men. I wanted to falcon punch her. She might have honestly believed what she was saying or it might have just been an over reaction to insecurity, but whatever the reason it was just too much for any one to tolerate with good cheer.

I don't notice any one acting to that extreme on these forums, and I've never seen it in game. The "worst" I've ever seen is women forming their own "sewing circle" within a guild, but as long as they're not constantly advertising the fact like "We have a ladies only chat channel and you can't join!" then it hasn't and wouldn't bother me.
#173 Aug 10 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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That's a good example I wasn't thinking about...but yeah, like most things, it needs to be looked at case-by-case. LMAO @ the falcon punch...
#174 Aug 10 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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There are idiots like that everywhere; it isn't gender-specific, it's just perspective bias that makes it seem that way.
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#175 Aug 10 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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<3 indeed. Also, why is this thread still going? PEOPLE play games.. people can be stupid. Some of them have boobs, some have penises. The End. >_>
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#176 Aug 10 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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olaurelindorenan wrote:


<3 indeed. Also, why is this thread still going? PEOPLE play games.. people can be stupid. Some of them have boobs, some have penises. The End. >_>


Some have both. With FFXIV coming out soon, that number is bound to go up.
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#177 Aug 10 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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olaurelindorenan wrote:
PEOPLE play games.. people can be stupid. Some of them have boobs, some have penises. The End. >_>


And some have both. And I'll stop there.
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#178 Aug 10 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:
olaurelindorenan wrote:
PEOPLE play games.. people can be stupid. Some of them have boobs, some have penises. The End. >_>


And some have both. And I'll stop there.


I was going to go there. . . but I knew you would if I didn't. You never disappoint <3 lol.
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#179 Aug 10 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the difference is that I can blame both parties to different degrees without absolving the aggressor, in my mind. I will read through it, though.


You're touching on an important point here, particularly in the context of "blaming the victim." The average person believes that blame is something that there is a certain amount of to be distributed proportionally to the parties at fault. Namely, to give blame to the victim, you must take away blame from the "assailant."

Granted, there are numerous accounts of egregious errors when blaming the victim, and perhaps they outweigh and outvalue the instances where the victim actually was responsible for what happened to them. A key distinction here is that-- to use the mugging example-- the person who was mugged may have been responsible for their poor judgment, and evoking a criminal response in that setting, but that person is never going to be considered criminally at fault for what they did. Socially, perhaps, maybe even likely. It's certainly very unlikely, however, that the criminal will be shown any mercy regardless of how much the person was implicitly "asking for it."

So in this example, if I could try to relay Majivo's sentiment, the assailant is always exactly as much at fault regardless of the context of the crime. Their punishment will not differ despite the foolishness of the victim. However, realistically, there was a quantifiable and statistical likelihood of the crime based on the victim's actions, and knowing that something has a good chance of attracting an assailant and doing it anyway is accepting that risk. In a sense, it adds a different kind of blame to the victim, though it's really more a reduction of sympathy than an ascribing of blame. See, socially, criminals are entitled to blame and therefor rejection, and victims are entitled to sympathy and comfort. So while we may say that the criminal is still entirely 100% at fault for being a criminal, we can also say, "Wow, that person was so stupid to put themself in that situation that I can really only offer 50% of the sympathy that I otherwise would."

-----

All of that assumes a certain typical value set in the human culture. Personally, I view blame and responsibility differently than most people. Namely, I don't blame anyone for anything. There is responsibility and recourse, and human faults are simply an inevitability of the world. I guess you'd say I have a "blame the world" or "blame the circumstances" mentality. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't lock up a murderer, but I wouldn't hate a murderer either. The criminal is also a victim of the world, and their punishment becomes a part of what victimizes them. But I would also be a less severe punisher in many cases, in light of that. The punishment does not aim to avenge anything or necessarily shame the criminal beyond their inherent regret, simply to create the most ideal future out of the unsavory present circumstances. Utilitarian justice, I guess you'd say (actually a quick google search reveals that utilitarian justice is an actual term, so as a disclaimer, I don't necessarily embrace any of the connotations of the established meaning.)
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#180 Aug 10 2010 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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The difficult part of being a female gamer is disclosing your *** to your online peers. Some romantically challenged peers may interpret basic social niceties for friendship and friendship for let'sbangitude.

This aside, yes, there will be many fellow female gamers. Of my own college age friend group, only forty percent do not play games (or at least not to the point that I do; their limits end just past MarioKart).
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#181 Aug 10 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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thefireworksgreen wrote:
Some romantically challenged peers may interpret basic social niceties for friendship and friendship for let'sbangitude.


This i think is one of the best things posted in this thread in awhile :) +1 , id give ya +2 if i could just cuz you didnt add the flame war ;)
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#182 Aug 11 2010 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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This is an amazingly popular thread for a topic that has been discussed at length so many time before.

Some people are men, some are women. Some are mature, some are manure. Some people are Astronauts.
#183 Aug 11 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Decent
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In my experience playing Wow, Runes of Magic, etc., there have been plenty of female players - even more than you would realize - so I think 30-40% is on the low end. I feel it could be more toward %50 or higher these days. You would be surprized at how many players you think might be guys that actually are women. In one group I was in on Runes of Magic, for the longest time I thought our leader was a guy - the characters she played were male characters and she was a very good player, and a high level one at that. However, I later found out it was actually a female playing the part.

In any event, I can vouch for many women players that I have known. Most of them are generally in their twenties and up. I have friends I work with that play, as well as friends I've gained online while playing, that are female. My daughters also play. I must say that there do seem to be more younger male players than younger female players that I know of (in the age group below 18), but that's just my own experience and opinion.

As for FFXIV, I plan to try it out. I don't really worry about whether characters are too skimpily clothed like a lot of women do - I worry more about how cool the graphics are and how well the characters play. This game certainly looks good in the graphics department - I can hardly wait to see how it plays!

The old saying, "there are no rl gurls on tha intranet" no longer applies! We are here, and we are here to stay! =)
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