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NDA *still* not lifted?Follow

#1 Jul 11 2010 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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The game is due out in two months and the NDA is still up? That makes me a little worried. I want FF14 to kick *** but the lack of info is really making me worried. I know SE are secretive and all that, but after the disasters of Age of Conan and Warhammer Online I am extremely skeptical of new MMOs...
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#2 Jul 11 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know about Warhammer, but by looking into AoC info as part of another post I made a while back indicated that AoC peaked around 750k pretty early on, and only died off due to people complaining about lack of content. Warhammer also spiked at about 750k, and then pretty abruptly dropped to 300k; not sure what the reasons for that are.

At any rate, SE has always been secretive about things. Two words: Absolute Virtue.

If it was at all feasible, I think SE would hide the copies of the game at the store, put a password on the installer and make us guess it, and tell us that "We think this leads to a more fun experience. It adds to the adventure!"
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#3 Jul 11 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Alot of info regarding the beta can be found via their official public Twitter Feed alot of other info is pretty much pointless/irrelivent to non-beta testers.
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#4 Jul 11 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Decent
The NDA will be live as long as there is a closed Beta. Nothing different from other closed Beta's. On the note of other MMO's, like Warhammer for example, all fail for the same basic reasons. Mostly it's lack of content, and PVP. In my experience, Warhammer failed because it always seemed one sided. Chaos was steamrolling ppl, so order left, the order was steamrolling, so chaos left. I played that game from Beta, and watched it happen.
#5 Jul 11 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Warhammer BILLING fail lol;

People got charged the monthly cost 10 - 30 times in one month!
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#6 Jul 11 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
It's gonna kick ****... SE was amongst the first MMOGs to do the graphics thing and emerse people in a virtual world and they started from scratch. There was nothing to copy, no cookie cutter UI or levelling system.

You want an indication as to why it will have moar awesomeness than other MMOGs out there? The levelling system. Guildleves. Completely new combat system unlike any other MMOG. Signature SE music. Signature SE story line.

SE is more pollished than other gaming companies out there, they are dedicated to developing new ways and better ways to experience your fantasy world. They are more original than any other gaming company in all these aspects.

Of course I might feel this way because I love the Final Fantasy series and will always be a fan. This might all be rehtoric but I bet most people on these forums agree with me and are just as excited for this new game to come out.

SE has complete loyalty from me even with all of their faults... they have worked tirelessly and deserve my loyalty, FF is always something fresh and new with a good dose of tradition in the Final Fantasy series. I could go on forever but I don't work as tirelessly as they do so <end comments now>
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#7 Jul 11 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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If it was at all feasible, I think SE would hide the copies of the game at the store, put a password on the installer and make us guess it, and tell us that "We think this leads to a more fun experience. It adds to the adventure!"



This was the funniest thing i have read in a long time and it's completly accurate
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#8 Jul 11 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:
Warhammer BILLING fail lol;

People got charged the monthly cost 10 - 30 times in one month!


If that's true, I would certainly say this would explain it.
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#9 Jul 11 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
Mikhalia wrote:
RedGalka wrote:
Warhammer BILLING fail lol;

People got charged the monthly cost 10 - 30 times in one month!


If that's true, I would certainly say this would explain it.


Warhammer was dying long before the billing fiasco. Myself, and 3 others had already left before that because it was getting really lonely lol. That whole mess was just the icing on the cake.
#10 Jul 11 2010 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I haven't been playing MMOs for almost two years now. I'm thinking about returning to either Cataclysm or FF14. I like the changes blizz has in store for Cata, but let's face it, the community in WOW is abhorrent. FF14 will have a strong community just because FFXI people will come over, and that game you *had* to be social and friendly or you were blacklisted and sat on your *** in Jeuno.

I'm honestly concerned what end game will be like in FF14. This is what has slain every new MMO in recent years. The first few zones are awesome, then suddenly content runs out and it turns into a grindy bug fest.

I guess I just want more info in terms of combat + end game, the greater scheme of things. I know the game looks and sounds beautiful, will have an intricate plot and world, but how does it PLAY? Are classes /abilities balanced? Will we have to camp for good gear again (PLEASE GOD NO) or are bosses instanced?
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#11 Jul 11 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Warhammer was dying long before the billing fiasco. Myself, and 3 others had already left before that because it was getting really lonely lol. That whole mess was just the icing on the cake.


Yeah dude, after two months they started to shut off servers left and right. Mythic released TOO MANY servers at start. What killed that game was how empty later zones became. The first tier was amazing, then after that suddenly people disappeared and just grinded PQs. It was lame as ****.

I really want FF14 to kick ***. I really do. But I Need more info plox :(
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#12 Jul 11 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Warhammer was dying long before the billing fiasco. Myself, and 3 others had already left before that because it was getting really lonely lol. That whole mess was just the icing on the cake.


The graphics looked like 1999. The animation was terribly choppy. There was no pve worth doing. The pvp was ok for about an hour. The community was very "if you don't like it, quit" instead of open to suggestions. The game was just disappointing.
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#15 Jul 11 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh, if you care to look for it, there's plenty of info that technically shouldn't be available due to the NDA, and it's having little impact on the community as a whole anyway. Anything an alpha/beta tester knows you shouldn't have much trouble learning for yourself.
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#16 Jul 11 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Default
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As crazy as their strategy seems (hardly enough information with only 2 months until release, high price reqs, last minute VITAL touchups, etc.), I seriously doubt SE will fail in their mission as other new MMOs clearly have (Warhammer, Conan, and Aion if they can't get their Vision patch out fast enough -- with their recent news of a server merge causing havoc amongst the citizens, it's a sinking ship). It goes without saying that they've already developed a strong fanbase not only for XI but for the franchise as a whole; it's one of the most beloved gaming franchises of all time, unlike the most recent MMOs. Even if it has its problems -- and what MMO doesn't, especially at launch? -- I'm willing to bet that SE is going to have solutions that will be applied ASAP so that their fanbase is kept happy. Obviously XI worked for them, and so they're likely going to continue that tradition with XIV.

But really, optimism aside, I'D LIKE MORE INFORMATION BEFORE I INVEST WADS OF CASH INTO THIS. :'( Is it against the NDA to confirm whether or not the combat mechanics are smartly polished or sluggishly crude? That the game is a grindfest worthy of JRPG fame? Most importantly, is it FUN? Etc. These are things I'd like to know before I spend unwisely. I know the game is going to be absolutely gorgeous -- that's not my concern. I just want to know that the gameplay is being as well taken care of as the graphics. Any confirmation on this would be appreciated.
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#17 Jul 11 2010 at 6:28 PM Rating: Default
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Your thinking is a little alarmist. Do you REALLY think people would not buy this game in droves if all the information they knew about it came *gasp* a week, even a month, after it's hard release?

It'll be fine.
#18 Jul 11 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Default
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Your thinking is a little alarmist. Do you REALLY think people would not buy this game in droves if all the information they knew about it came *gasp* a week, even a month, after it's hard release?


I am willing to bet that 90% of the people who are going to play this game at PC release have bought the collectors edition. This isn't one of those mmorpgs people are feeling so so about. This is one of the most anticipated mmorpgs of all times. Will it attract more then the people who buy it at release? Maybe, it depends on how many bugs there are and how well the game plays.
#19 Jul 11 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
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TheBSTGuy wrote:
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Your thinking is a little alarmist. Do you REALLY think people would not buy this game in droves if all the information they knew about it came *gasp* a week, even a month, after it's hard release?


I am willing to bet that 90% of the people who are going to play this game at PC release have bought the collectors edition. This isn't one of those mmorpgs people are feeling so so about. This is one of the most anticipated mmorpgs of all times. Will it attract more then the people who buy it at release? Maybe, it depends on how many bugs there are and how well the game plays.

Uh, no. Most anticipated among FFXI players, maybe. The rest of the world barely even knows it exists, because SE's marketing scheme is almost nonexistent.
#20 Jul 11 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:
I don't know about Warhammer, but by looking into AoC info as part of another post I made a while back indicated that AoC peaked around 750k pretty early on, and only died off due to people complaining about lack of content. Warhammer also spiked at about 750k, and then pretty abruptly dropped to 300k; not sure what the reasons for that are.


I played both, and quit both, because they were buggy/unfinished POS's. Lack of content was not an issue for the majority of people playing AoC because most never got to that point. The game had a severe number of glitches and performance issues, whole groups of abilities that were either not implemented or barely implemented. I remember playing a... infernalist? Whatever class could summon demons. I had something like 4-5 self buffs which took my full mana bar to cast as well as 20 seconds or so, and the difference between having and not having them wasn't even noticeable. It was like they needed to hit a certain # of features for each class, so they just threw a bunch of crap into the game that didn't actually do anything. Certain talents (or whatever they're called in Age of Conan) simply didn't do anything at all, or didn't do what the tooltip said they did. My character looked fantastic, and the game world was pretty, but the game was just an abortion before you even start to talk about lack of content or the fact that the mass PvP, siege combat, etc that was supposed to be a major selling point wasn't even in the game.

WAR was like playing an unfinished, unpolished version of WoW. Game systems were much better than AoC in that the "talent" equivalent actually worked very well, and despite being very simple to understand, did give a feel of customization. If you look at the current design direction for talents in WoW, they're actually moving closer to what WAR has, cutting out all the passive BS and overwhelming number of talents in favor of making sure that each talent does some thing interesting.

Combat was okay, standard MMO fare with a few twists and turns. Unfortunately not all the classes were in, and there was huge realm imbalance towards Chaos (a problem that we warned them about repeatedly during beta and which they basically ignored even though it's a fatal flaw in a REALM VS REALM PvP game.). Basically, they focused too much on trying to be WoW, and got their asses handed to them because surprise surprise, WoW is better at being WoW, and the main selling point of WAR (Realm vs Realm PvP) was not properly emphasized. In the end, even if people struggled to the end game, and were lucky enough to be one one of the rare servers where Chaos and Order were in relatively equal numbers, they could look forward to laggy rubber banding mass PvP because of course the game engine wasn't optimized to display so many characters at once.

Crafting was tacked on at a late stage and only featured a handful of skills. It wasn't very deep or engrossing and the game probably would have been better without any crafting until they really had some thing that would sparkle and pop. Similar complaints to AoC in that the mid to end game PvE content was sparse, so levelling was very grindy once you got past the zones that were tested in beta.

Quote:

At any rate, SE has always been secretive about things. Two words: Absolute Virtue.

If it was at all feasible, I think SE would hide the copies of the game at the store, put a password on the installer and make us guess it, and tell us that "We think this leads to a more fun experience. It adds to the adventure!"



I'm just worried, like the OP, that a lack of openness about the game means that it's still got a lot of issues, and with such a short amount of time until release, it doesn't bode well for the quality or quantity of content at the game's launch. Most quality MMOs have the entire game world fleshed out and testable before going live. If you've got the content, why wouldn't you have people testing it? If it's in an attractive state, why wouldn't you show it off? My conclusion is that FFXIV just isn't nearly as close to "finished" as many people would expect at this point in time. I think we're going to see it launch with an underwhelming set of features, and most of the "launch" content will actually be patched in post launch, similar to the way S-E has handled their major expansions in the past.
#21 Jul 11 2010 at 7:01 PM Rating: Default
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I think we're going to see it launch with an underwhelming set of features, and most of the "launch" content will actually be patched in post launch, similar to the way S-E has handled their major expansions in the past.


That because of the all mighty $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$! Like it or not if SE is competing with WOW and every MMORPG out there. There are only so many players to go around. Besides kids growing up and then trying a mmorpg, pretty much anyone who is/was/are going to play a MMORPG has either tried or are playing a MMORPG already. MMORPGS do not have the same appeal as the Wii, they take a lot of time and dedication, And thats something that some people are not willing to give up! SE needs a early release to beat WOW and DC universe to the plate.

SE has a strong fan base they could release utter crap and the fans will still play it. Its the undecided they have to worry about. My bet is SE is banking on having more hard core fans play the game then the people on the fence!

Edited, Jul 11th 2010 9:02pm by TheBSTGuy
#22 Jul 11 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Majivo wrote:
TheBSTGuy wrote:
Quote:
Your thinking is a little alarmist. Do you REALLY think people would not buy this game in droves if all the information they knew about it came *gasp* a week, even a month, after it's hard release?


I am willing to bet that 90% of the people who are going to play this game at PC release have bought the collectors edition. This isn't one of those mmorpgs people are feeling so so about. This is one of the most anticipated mmorpgs of all times. Will it attract more then the people who buy it at release? Maybe, it depends on how many bugs there are and how well the game plays.

Uh, no. Most anticipated among FFXI players, maybe. The rest of the world barely even knows it exists, because SE's marketing scheme is almost nonexistent.


Final Fantasy has enough marketing in the name alone.

Ultimately, if you consider that XI was well run (yes? no? maybe?) you can rest assured that XIV will be OK. Their marketing scheme with XI was awful, but the appeal of the game kept the player base (and continues to.)
#23 Jul 11 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
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I am kind of unsure why they haven't lifted NDA, because its 2 months before release, and you have 50k+ public people playing it there really no big secrets to keep since people in the public already know whats in the game. You think they would want to build up hype for the release, if people can post their pictures/videos stuff about playing it like to make people more excited to buy the game.
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#24 Jul 11 2010 at 8:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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The point of the NDA is to not risk a shortsighted public opinion backlash upon seeing rampant bugs/issues/features still being developed and polished.

It's not really fair to criticize a game in beta as having bugs, as that's the entire point of running it. Nevertheless there are people out there who know less than they should and are more assured of themselves because of it, and who will form negative opinions of the game before it comes out as a result. That's what they're trying to avoid.



Edited, Jul 11th 2010 9:32pm by bsphil
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#25 Jul 11 2010 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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The point of the NDA is to not risk a shortsighted public opinion backlash upon seeing rampant bugs/issues/features still being developed and polished.


QFT
#26 Jul 11 2010 at 9:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
The point of the NDA is to not risk a shortsighted public opinion backlash upon seeing rampant bugs/issues/features still being developed and polished.


Also features that the testers test but the developers can't get to work and therefore never go live. Empty "promises" can hurt reputation just as much as bugs.
#27 Jul 11 2010 at 9:45 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
bsphil wrote:
The point of the NDA is to not risk a shortsighted public opinion backlash upon seeing rampant bugs/issues/features still being developed and polished.


Also features that the testers test but the developers can't get to work and therefore never go live. Empty "promises" can hurt reputation just as much as bugs.


Exactly. If the devs say "We want to improve the following:", list 20 things, and actually improve 15 of them (due to time constraints or infeasibility or whatever for the other 5) then people are never going to shut up about "the five things you still have not addressed"

A game is really unstable during alpha/beta; not unstable in terms of server stability, but unstable in terms of "anything is subject to change at any point for any reason". Based on several things that have happened through not just XI's lifespand, but even XIV's lifespan, there have been things we have been told that changed, and whenever something is changed, we hear people screaming "SE lied to us!"

Given the immense amount of things that change during a beta, do you really want to hear people calling SE liars every time they change (or don't change) every single feature?
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#28 Jul 12 2010 at 6:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nonagon wrote:
Final Fantasy has enough marketing in the name alone.

Ultimately, if you consider that XI was well run (yes? no? maybe?) you can rest assured that XIV will be OK. Their marketing scheme with XI was awful, but the appeal of the game kept the player base (and continues to.)

There isn't a franchise in the world that has enough marketing just by its name alone. ****, even Coke and Pepsi still advertise their products, and do you think there's anyone left who hasn't heard of these companies? WoW is far and away the most popular MMORPG in the world, and they still run commercials regularly. It's about more than having been heard of. If they released FFXIV tomorrow, you'd have a lot of people going "another Final Fantasy? what's it like?" and the rest of the world would be saying "I don't know, I haven't heard anything about it." No one wants to take a risk on an unknown quantity that doesn't even advertise its basic features.
#29 Jul 12 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Default
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Majivo wrote:
Nonagon wrote:
Final Fantasy has enough marketing in the name alone.

Ultimately, if you consider that XI was well run (yes? no? maybe?) you can rest assured that XIV will be OK. Their marketing scheme with XI was awful, but the appeal of the game kept the player base (and continues to.)

There isn't a franchise in the world that has enough marketing just by its name alone. sh*t, even Coke and Pepsi still advertise their products, and do you think there's anyone left who hasn't heard of these companies? WoW is far and away the most popular MMORPG in the world, and they still run commercials regularly. It's about more than having been heard of. If they released FFXIV tomorrow, you'd have a lot of people going "another Final Fantasy? what's it like?" and the rest of the world would be saying "I don't know, I haven't heard anything about it." No one wants to take a risk on an unknown quantity that doesn't even advertise its basic features.


Coca-cola is constantly releasing new products though.

There are other more comparable "brand names" that need no further introduction. They may have marketing—they probably all do somewhere somehow—but this may just be a nicety. Sometimes marketing can serve as a company's self-aware voice: a voice that identifies as opposed to one that asserts its presence.

I still stand by my original comment though.
#30 Jul 12 2010 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
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TheBSTGuy wrote:
Quote:
I think we're going to see it launch with an underwhelming set of features, and most of the "launch" content will actually be patched in post launch, similar to the way S-E has handled their major expansions in the past.


That because of the all mighty $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$! Like it or not if SE is competing with WOW and every MMORPG out there. There are only so many players to go around. Besides kids growing up and then trying a mmorpg, pretty much anyone who is/was/are going to play a MMORPG has either tried or are playing a MMORPG already. MMORPGS do not have the same appeal as the Wii, they take a lot of time and dedication, And thats something that some people are not willing to give up! SE needs a early release to beat WOW and DC universe to the plate.

SE has a strong fan base they could release utter crap and the fans will still play it. Its the undecided they have to worry about. My bet is SE is banking on having more hard core fans play the game then the people on the fence!

Edited, Jul 11th 2010 9:02pm by TheBSTGuy



ummm I think that might be way off base. Why would SE sink millions of dollars into creating an entire new game with the hopes of just getting there current FFXI player base to switch over to FFXIV. Your reasoning dont make much sense, if they are just going for the same subscription base why would they need to make a new game? they allready have the subscription base you claim they want with FFXI
#31 Jul 13 2010 at 6:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Majivo wrote:
here isn't a franchise in the world that has enough marketing just by its name alone. sh*t, even Coke and Pepsi still advertise their products, and do you think there's anyone left who hasn't heard of these companies?


Apples and oranges.

The soft drink industry, much like the beer industry, as a whole has almost 0 advertising elasticity of demand - i.e. additional advertising, for all intents and purposes, has no effect on overall soft drink sales. But individual suppliers have an advertising elasticity of demand greater than 0 - more advertising of a brand produces more sales for that brand.

This means that, with respect to advertising, the soft drink industry is effectively zero-sum now - any supplier's gains must be offset by someone else's losses. So Coke and Pepsi have to continue advertising, regardless of how ubiquitous their names are, because if they don't they will lose sales to their competitors - and even if all the major players colluded and collectively stopped advertising, they'd still lose sales to the more competitively-priced generics.



The video game industry does not have near-zero advertising elasticity of demand, thus the video game market is largely no zero-sum.
#32 Jul 13 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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imperialvulture wrote:

Well I haven't been playing MMOs for almost two years now. I'm thinking about returning to either Cataclysm or FF14. I like the changes blizz has in store for Cata, but let's face it, the community in WOW is abhorrent. FF14 will have a strong community just because FFXI people will come over, and that game you *had* to be social and friendly or you were blacklisted and sat on your *** in Jeuno.


This isn't really true - some of the biggest douchebags in the game are the leaders of the big time linkshells. You can be a douche anywhere.

Nonagon wrote:

Final Fantasy has enough marketing in the name alone.


I would be very cautious about this thinking. You do realize that Final Fantasy's days of glowingly positive reviews ended several years ago, right? XI in particular is not well received, and I've said it in other threads but I'll briefly touch on it again here - the 18 hour marathon fight will be fresh in everyone's mind when this hits the shelves and the magazines start reporting it. In fact, I will be very surprised if it doesn't get mentioned.

I'd say that FFXIV could build up steam on rep alone if it was about 6 years ago at the time of XI's infancy. These days, though, there's a **** of a lot more competition that's more appealing to us North Americans. The days of the JRPG might not be over, but they are certainly numbered as other companies are creating better gaming experiences than just "Follow this tunnel to the end".

I agree it's time they started letting people leak out the positives - because right now all I've heard is that it's barely able to run. Not good, for a game due to release in two months.




Edited, Jul 13th 2010 11:02am by Torrence
#33 Jul 13 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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BastokFL wrote:
The video game industry does not have near-zero advertising elasticity of demand, thus the video game market is largely no zero-sum.

Which is nice and all, but not really relevant to my overall point. It's not zero-sum, no, but this doesn't change the fact that without advertising, they aren't going to bring in any new customers. They're relying to a ridiculous degree on word of mouth to get their product out. FFXI had the benefit of being their first Final Fantasy MMO, so that people could only imagine how awesome it would be. Now, with FFXIV, people have heard plenty of bad things about FFXI (no matter how much you love the game, the customer service was atrocious and there were a ton of time sinks). SE needs some hefty positive advertising to not only get their product some visibility, but to overcome negative impressions left by FFX-2, FFXI and FFXII, all of which received some very visible negative publicity from reviewers.
#34 Jul 13 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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Majivo wrote:
BastokFL wrote:
The video game industry does not have near-zero advertising elasticity of demand, thus the video game market is largely no zero-sum.

Which is nice and all, but not really relevant to my overall point. It's not zero-sum, no, but this doesn't change the fact that without advertising, they aren't going to bring in any new customers. They're relying to a ridiculous degree on word of mouth to get their product out. FFXI had the benefit of being their first Final Fantasy MMO, so that people could only imagine how awesome it would be. Now, with FFXIV, people have heard plenty of bad things about FFXI (no matter how much you love the game, the customer service was atrocious and there were a ton of time sinks). SE needs some hefty positive advertising to not only get their product some visibility, but to overcome negative impressions left by FFX-2, FFXI and FFXII, all of which received some very visible negative publicity from reviewers.


Many people forgot about X-2 pretty fast, or never took it seriously in the first place. Honestly, once you got past the "Pretty princess dressup"/"moon prism power" aspect of it, it wasn't that bad. If they had called them "Jobspheres" instead of Dressspheres and replaced one or two of the all female cast with a male or two (or just some genderless character), the game would have been much more popular. Most people just looked at it as "not wanting to watch three females change their clothes for 60 hours" and didn't actually give it a chance, and the few who did were greeted with Yuna's calm, quiet nature replaced with that of a giddy schoolgirl, and Rikku, who was already overexcitable, had her enthusiasm turned up to 11. I think Paine was probably the only redeeming character of the three, if only because her moodyness at least ATTEMPTED to offset it. "Gimme a Y!" "Gimme an R!" "Gimme a break..." indeed.

As for XI, it still has a pretty loyal fanbase, it just suffered from "too little, too late" in terms of addressing common concerns. Most of the complaints people had in the early days were ignored, and weren't addressed until long after those players had quit to play something else.

In the case of XII, I didn't think it was that bad; honestly, it was one of my favorites. Two things that made it different was that it was taking place in an already established world (Ivalice), and that the "main character" was really more of an ancillary character if you think about it. I mean honestly, Balthier, Fran, Basch, and Ashe could have made due without Vaan or Penelo just fine, at any point. The biggest difference was that it was a lot like a single player XI with NMs and with roaming monsters that are engaged on the map, as well as a gambit system and real time battle, instead of the traditional "world scene"/"battle scene" transition, and micro managing all your characters. If you didn't like XI, I could understand not liking 12 though. And you probably won't like 14 either.

Really, I'm more concerned with 13's effect than anything else. A lot of people regard 13 as being poorly done; it was pretty much one giant movie while running through a tunnel. Many people joke that "Once you get past the first 15 hours, it's pretty good" but I haven't hated myself enough to have gotten through more than 5 before I gave up on it.

A friend of mine, who also hated 13 but is looking forward to 14 (and has never played 11, but has played 12) said that to him, 14 sounds like it might be a lot like 13 in terms of progression system. Thinking in terms of how Paradigm Shifts are "instant job changes" and how you progress simultaneously through the different role types separately, and comparing that to what we know of 13, it does sound like the same type of ideas. I don't even mind that; I just don't want to pay $60 (well, in this case, $75) -and- a monthly fee to run through a tunnel with a movie playing. That's probably why I didn't like X either; it had what I thought was a nice advancement system, it just felt too "point A to point B"ish to me. One think I'm hoping I can count on in XIV, being an MMORPG, is that it will have an open world to explore at leisure; the fact that it's not single player means I don't have to worry about the tunnel that was 13.

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#35 Jul 13 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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BastokFL wrote:

The video game industry does not have near-zero advertising elasticity of demand, thus the video game market is largely no zero-sum.


The video game industry as a whole is not zero sum, but the MMO segment of the video game industry is closer to being zero sum in the sense that WoW is already advertising like crazy, so most of the people you can draw in through simple bought awareness are already being recruited. It would be very difficult for FFXIV, no matter how much they spent on advertising, to differentiate itself or make a unique enough pitch to draw in possible fantasy MMO players that aren't being drawn to WoW. Instead, they pretty much need to get the ball rolling by cannibalizing other MMOs plus their own FFXI player base.

I mean, what can they offer to the non MMO player who's considering playing MMOs, that WoW doesn't? Is it going to be MORE casual than WoW? I doubt it. It's not a different genre, and it's not a fundamentally different model. At best they can tout the fact that it's newer and costs less, but until it's available on the PS3 it's going to be hard to tout the value of the game when you need to go buy a relatively high end system to take advantage of the graphics.

Most of what S-E can offer, Pre PS3 is going to appeal to those who already play MMOs. Those who are looking for the next big thing, those who want a more "hard core" experience or who really enjoy things like mog houses, gardening, etc. I believe that for the first 5-6 months of the game's advertising life, S-E's money is going to be best spent advertising on ZAM, WoWhead, MMO champion, getting exposure on the MMO report, and so on. Once the bugs are ironed out, the basic content is all patched in, and they can differentiate themselves by appealing to the console demographic, THEN I think it's time to shift advertising to a more mainstream demographic.

Edited, Jul 13th 2010 4:10pm by KarlHungis
#36 Jul 13 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Majivo wrote:
SE needs some hefty positive advertising to not only get their product some visibility, but to overcome negative impressions left by FFX-2, FFXI and FFXII, all of which received some very visible negative publicity from reviewers.


FF XII? Are you serious? XII was one of the best-reviewed games in the franchise. A lot of people in the franchise fan base didn't like it, but that's not the same thing - they also didn't like IX, which was also a critical darling.

Besides that, single-player FF games don't GET bad reviews - FF 13, which is the worst reviewed non-port in the entire franchise, received overall positive reviews (PS3: 83 Metacritic, 85.17% GameRankings - XBox 360: 82 Metacritic, 82.18% GameRankings).

KarlHungis wrote:
The video game industry as a whole is not zero sum, but the MMO segment of the video game industry is closer to being zero sum in the sense that WoW is already advertising like crazy, so most of the people you can draw in through simple bought awareness are already being recruited.


No, it's not. The MMO market is THEORETICALLY zero-sum, given that most people won't pay for two different game subscriptions at once, but we're not even close to that point yet. There are a lot of people who would play an MMO who have no interest whatsoever in WoW, just as in the days before WoW there were many people who would play an MMO who had no interest whatsoever in EQ or FFXI or UO or any of the other (at that point) big names.

Quote:
I mean, what can they offer to the non MMO player who's considering playing MMOs, that WoW doesn't? Is it going to be MORE casual than WoW?


Honestly, at this point that's about all they can do - they need to attract a new fan base, because they've already lost most of the franchise's fans.
#37 Jul 13 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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BastokFL wrote:
Majivo wrote:
SE needs some hefty positive advertising to not only get their product some visibility, but to overcome negative impressions left by FFX-2, FFXI and FFXII, all of which received some very visible negative publicity from reviewers.


FF XII? Are you serious? XII was one of the best-reviewed games in the franchise. A lot of people in the franchise fan base didn't like it, but that's not the same thing - they also didn't like IX, which was also a critical darling.


I think I remember somewhere, something about FF 9 supposedly being the creators' general vision of the entire series as a whole; that 9 was -their- favorite. I could be mistaken, however, as I can't find a source for this, but it sticks out in my mind.

If I had to break it down upon my own opinion, I'd say:

Favorites 4/11/12/Tactics
Very close runners up: 6/9/X-2/TA2
Decent: 3/5/7/Legend
Tolerable: 1/2/8/10/Adventure/MQ
Abysmal: 13

I'm also well aware that not everyone will agree with me, and fully anticipate kneejerk reactions of how horrible Mystic Quest was and how awesome FF7 or 10 were. Don't care.

Edited, Jul 13th 2010 6:43pm by Mikhalia
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#38 Jul 13 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
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BastokFL wrote:
Majivo wrote:
SE needs some hefty positive advertising to not only get their product some visibility, but to overcome negative impressions left by FFX-2, FFXI and FFXII, all of which received some very visible negative publicity from reviewers.


FF XII? Are you serious? XII was one of the best-reviewed games in the franchise. A lot of people in the franchise fan base didn't like it, but that's not the same thing - they also didn't like IX, which was also a critical darling.

Yes, but if SE doesn't advertise for this game, then people in the franchise fan base will be the only ones looking at it. And when they've been disappointed for several games in a row, they're going to be very wary about sinking $50 plus subscription fees into this one, especially when SE refuses to talk about it.
#39 Jul 13 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Nonagon wrote:

Final Fantasy has enough marketing in the name alone.


I disagree. Our culture today has turned to sh*t. Most kids today are more concerned with playing madden and MW2 while rolling a blunt and pretending to rap. RPGs are "***" and the kids that play them are nerds. WoW sort of bridged the gap (unfortunately, the game without the sh*theads is actually really good), but other than that I don't see much of a future here in the mainstream for Final Fantasy. It makes me sad that more people don't read and enjoy games like FF, but since that's not going to change, I'm happy it's still a haven for those of us who can still appreciate hobbies that require mental capacity.
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#40 Jul 13 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Majivo wrote:
BastokFL wrote:
Majivo wrote:
SE needs some hefty positive advertising to not only get their product some visibility, but to overcome negative impressions left by FFX-2, FFXI and FFXII, all of which received some very visible negative publicity from reviewers.


FF XII? Are you serious? XII was one of the best-reviewed games in the franchise. A lot of people in the franchise fan base didn't like it, but that's not the same thing - they also didn't like IX, which was also a critical darling.

Yes, but if SE doesn't advertise for this game, then people in the franchise fan base will be the only ones looking at it. And when they've been disappointed for several games in a row, they're going to be very wary about sinking $50 plus subscription fees into this one, especially when SE refuses to talk about it.



Or 75 if you're silly like me and pre-ordered the Collectors Edition. Mmm 8 days early access and an onion hat.
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#41 Jul 13 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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GuardianFaith wrote:
Quote:
Nonagon wrote:

Final Fantasy has enough marketing in the name alone.


I disagree. Our culture today has turned to sh*t. Most kids today are more concerned with playing madden and MW2 while rolling a blunt and pretending to rap. RPGs are "***" and the kids that play them are nerds. WoW sort of bridged the gap (unfortunately, the game without the sh*theads is actually really good), but other than that I don't see much of a future here in the mainstream for Final Fantasy. It makes me sad that more people don't read and enjoy games like FF, but since that's not going to change, I'm happy it's still a haven for those of us who can still appreciate hobbies that require mental capacity.


Couldn't agree more.
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#42 Jul 13 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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BastokFL wrote:


No, it's not. The MMO market is THEORETICALLY zero-sum, given that most people won't pay for two different game subscriptions at once, but we're not even close to that point yet. There are a lot of people who would play an MMO who have no interest whatsoever in WoW, just as in the days before WoW there were many people who would play an MMO who had no interest whatsoever in EQ or FFXI or UO or any of the other (at that point) big names.



The difference IMO is that EQ and FFXI were very rigid about decreasing the grindy/hard core nature of their game, which gave WoW a perfect opportunity to capture that nascent casual demographic. Blizzard hasn't been nearly as rigid in this regard and they advertise like crazy, so it's hard to imagine that there's a large group of people who are willing to play a fantasy MMO but just aren't aware of their options at this point. Personally, if I were trying to target the "more casual than WoW" demographic I'd be designing some thing that's Free to Play, since the monthly fee is pretty much the last "hard core" element that remains in WoW.

Quote:
Quote:
I mean, what can they offer to the non MMO player who's considering playing MMOs, that WoW doesn't? Is it going to be MORE casual than WoW?


Honestly, at this point that's about all they can do - they need to attract a new fan base, because they've already lost most of the franchise's fans.


I don't think you can say they've "lost" any one permanently. It's a new game, so it can have new appeal to departed fans of FFXI, and it can also appeal to those who have played other MMOS. And just because WoW is really successful doesn't mean every thing has to be casual to be successful. The existence of McDonald's might change the way that people look at sit down restaurants, but it hasn't put them out of business. Similarly, people might not tolerate the grindy time sinks that they tolerated in UO, EQ, and FFXI, but that doesn't mean they're all looking for some thing that's as casual as Wow or more casual than WoW. I bet there are a LOT of players out there that might have cut their teeth on WoW that might be interested in some thing with a little more substance. If those people are even a 1/10th of WoW's population and they find their way to FFXIV then you've got an extremely solid base to build from. I doubt that FFXIV can really steal even 10% of WoW's base, but that doesn't mean that it's not a worthy goal.



Edited, Jul 13th 2010 8:49pm by KarlHungis
#43 Jul 13 2010 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:


I'm also well aware that not everyone will agree with me, and fully anticipate kneejerk reactions of how horrible Mystic Quest was and how awesome FF7 or 10 were. Don't care.


I don't know anything about Mystic Quest, but 7 and 10 were the best in the series, IMO. So many things going on both in terms of gameplay advancements and story. Of course, 7 is primitive by current standards, but for the time it was revolutionary.

I know you don't care, but I care. :D

Edit:
Wait, was Mystic Quest the one where you had to carry around the lamp? Because that was pretty bad.

Good thing we agree that tactics and tactics advance were pretty awesome or we might have to meet at dawn, with pistols!

Edited, Jul 13th 2010 8:53pm by KarlHungis
#44 Jul 14 2010 at 12:46 AM Rating: Decent
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This community is weird. I state something and get defaulted, a sage quotes me and agrees with me and gets rated up. Do you guys even read or just click the green button when you see high posters?
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#45 Jul 14 2010 at 4:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Getting back to the original concerns of the thread, if the NDA isn't lifted by the 1 month mark, that's when I would become concerned and consider canceling my pre-order. But with 2 months and a week to go before the CE release, I think it's a bit early to worry about the NDA still being up.

I've been in several betas that have dramatically improved over their final weeks, and other ones that had core gameplay mechanics overhauled a little before release. The NDA is not necessarily up to conceal negative reflections of the game. They could have it up simply because they're still tweaking things, and they don't want people getting the wrong info then discovering a completely different game upon release.

Granted, I have been in betas that kept the NDA in place to prevent people from canceling their pre-orders (*cough*SWG*cough*), but as I mentioned above, I think it's still a bit early to be overly concerned about it. If a month from now it's still in place then it may be time to start sharpening the pitchforks and getting the torches ready ;)

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 6:58am by theweenie
#46 Jul 14 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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2,535 posts
GuardianFaith wrote:
This community is weird. I state something and get defaulted, a sage quotes me and agrees with me and gets rated up. Do you guys even read or just click the green button when you see high posters?


1) Posts start at the poster's karma level - so most Sages' posts start at good (and all Guru posts start at Excellent).

2) The first rule of karma is you do not complain about karma.
#47 Jul 14 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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2,010 posts
Quote:
Really, I'm more concerned with 13's effect than anything else. A lot of people regard 13 as being poorly done; it was pretty much one giant movie while running through a tunnel. Many people joke that "Once you get past the first 15 hours, it's pretty good" but I haven't hated myself enough to have gotten through more than 5 before I gave up on it.


13 really was poorly done, and the things that I didn't really like about it was how it was talked up to be the first FF with a female lead character. They thought that would sell more boxes, and then we all got it expecting this awesome experience but it fell really short of the mark when all of a sudden control was passed to some guy in a trench coat smashing his fist into his palm, and then to a couple of kids running around randomly. I just couldn't get far enough into the game to where I guess it gets *good*.

The whole thing just felt really hokey to me. Couple that with the lack of any meaningful exploration into the world or *choice*, and it's no surprise that people moved on very quickly to other games. I was very disappointed in it and their next console game I won't be pre-ordering.


Quote:
Besides that, single-player FF games don't GET bad reviews - FF 13, which is the worst reviewed non-port in the entire franchise, received overall positive reviews (PS3: 83 Metacritic, 85.17% GameRankings - XBox 360: 82 Metacritic, 82.18% GameRankings).



The problem is that they are pulling in 80's while other games are pulling in **** close to 100's. Oblivion got a 93 and Fallout 3 a whopping 96, Dragon age managed a 90 and even Heavy Rain scraped out an 89. The low end of the 80 spectrum isn't good enough in my eyes to buy their product over another one just because I liked past Final Fantasy games. That's just a reality that folks need to face. You can't package a **** gaming experience in HD and expect the illusion to last for long.


We all want FFXIV to succeed - but it won't do it with the way that things are shaping up right now. Unless Square gets with the program and fast, they will be completely overshadowed by other companies who are doing it right.
#48 Jul 14 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
Quote:
Besides that, single-player FF games don't GET bad reviews - FF 13, which is the worst reviewed non-port in the entire franchise, received overall positive reviews (PS3: 83 Metacritic, 85.17% GameRankings - XBox 360: 82 Metacritic, 82.18% GameRankings).



The problem is that they are pulling in 80's while other games are pulling in **** close to 100's. Oblivion got a 93 and Fallout 3 a whopping 96, Dragon age managed a 90 and even Heavy Rain scraped out an 89. The low end of the 80 spectrum isn't good enough in my eyes to buy their product over another one just because I liked past Final Fantasy games. That's just a reality that folks need to face. You can't package a sh*t gaming experience in HD and expect the illusion to last for long.


You'd make your point better if your data wasn't so cherry-picked: Fallout 3 does not pull a 96 average - That's the GameRankings score for the PC version of the Game of the Year edition, which is based off of only 1 review. (****, just basing the rating off one port of the "Game of the Year" edition, I could say Oblivion only got an 85...) If you exclude the Game of the Year editions, which all have so few reviews as to be statistically insignificant, you get a range of 90-93 across both sites.

Similarly, Dragon Age: Origins only scores a 90 if you ignore the console ports (which average 86-87 across both sites), and Heavy Rain only has an 89 average on GameRankings - on Metacritic, it's at 87.

That you find a review average in the low 80's too low for you to consider buying a Final Fantasy game (amusing, considering you play FFXI) does not mean that those are low scores or bad reviews.



And note that many of the most heavily criticized aspects of 13 are just the logical progression of long-running trends in the franchise, many of which were reversed for 12 (which was not developed by the normal Final Fantasy dev team, and tellingly, was absolutely detested by a very vocal portion of the fan base) before coming back full-bore in 13. The linearity, the poor storytelling, the annoying characterization, the heavy focus on visuals - all of these are merely the culmination of the long-running evolution of the franchise.
#49 Jul 14 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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BastokFL wrote:
And note that many of the most heavily criticized aspects of 13 are just the logical progression of long-running trends in the franchise, many of which were reversed for 12 (which was not developed by the normal Final Fantasy dev team, and tellingly, was absolutely detested by a very vocal portion of the fan base) before coming back full-bore in 13. The linearity, the poor storytelling, the annoying characterization, the heavy focus on visuals - all of these are merely the culmination of the long-running evolution of the franchise.


?
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#50 Jul 14 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
Quote:
Really, I'm more concerned with 13's effect than anything else. A lot of people regard 13 as being poorly done; it was pretty much one giant movie while running through a tunnel. Many people joke that "Once you get past the first 15 hours, it's pretty good" but I haven't hated myself enough to have gotten through more than 5 before I gave up on it.


13 really was poorly done, and the things that I didn't really like about it was how it was talked up to be the first FF with a female lead character. They thought that would sell more boxes, and then we all got it expecting this awesome experience but it fell really short of the mark when all of a sudden control was passed to some guy in a trench coat smashing his fist into his palm, and then to a couple of kids running around randomly. I just couldn't get far enough into the game to where I guess it gets *good*.


FF6's Terra was a female lead character. Shame on anyone who said that 13 was the first to have one.

Another complaint I had about XIII was that it threw you into the character's too fast. With most games, you have one or two characters at the start, and your group gradually grows over time, as you find yourself adding people one at a time, with the occasional two. Conversely, XIII pretty much threw Lightning, Snow, Vanille, Hope, and Sazh at you all at once.

Some past titles (4 and 6 come to mind) even provided you with a brief 2-3 line back story before you named the character and added them to your party.

Many FF games also start heavily in-character; in the middle of a serious plot about a country and a leader and a place and a thing and some people, none of which you have ever heard of. Here are some examples, with the fakes/unknowns bolded, of what one can gather within the first 15 minutes of the game.

FF4: Cecil has rebelled against the King of Baron after stealing a crystal (why?) from the Mysidians, and now has to deliver a ring (what?) to the village of Mist. His friend Kain spoke up on his behalf and is forced to accompany him.

FF7: Cloud, an ex-SOLDIER (It's in all caps for some reason) has joined with the terrorist group Avalanche to partner with a guy named Barret (with a gun on his arm?) to destroy a Mako Reactor (why?) in an attempt to cripple SHIN-RA.

The games do hit you with a lot of terms you've never heard of, but usually they limit it to the stories of one or two characters. Every character has some type of back story that you'll learn in time, but they explain it little by little.

In 13, it felt to me like you had missed something. Ever turn on a Law & Order or a CSI 20 mins in? Try to watch Lord of the Rings, but skip the first half hour. Try to watch the Harry Potter series, but skip the first film or two. That's what 13 feels like. It's not a major issue to immerse your viewers/players in a "real" world to get them into the feel of the movie, and to give them an understanding of the characters, but in the case of 13, if felt like you got there late and had missed a TON of sh*t. There was so much sh*t that they threw at you about things that had already happened or were happening that you pretty much HAD to refer to the glossary to understand what the **** was going on. Why are they being exiled? What the @#%^ is a cocoon? Who is this ice chick, and why am I supposed to care that this trenchcoat guy is trying to break her out? What the @#%^ is a Pulse l'cie or a fal'cie and wh'y do t'hey n'eed apo'strophes in ev'eryth'ing? Everything gets explained in the process of raising two more questions. If I wanted to be this confused, I would have started watching Lost in the middle of Season 2 instead of at the pilot. At least that way, I wouldn't have to keep pushing my analog stick in one direction and mashing a button over and over.

Torrence wrote:
Quote:
Besides that, single-player FF games don't GET bad reviews - FF 13, which is the worst reviewed non-port in the entire franchise, received overall positive reviews (PS3: 83 Metacritic, 85.17% GameRankings - XBox 360: 82 Metacritic, 82.18% GameRankings).



The problem is that they are pulling in 80's while other games are pulling in **** close to 100's. Oblivion got a 93 and Fallout 3 a whopping 96, Dragon age managed a 90 and even Heavy Rain scraped out an 89. The low end of the 80 spectrum isn't good enough in my eyes to buy their product over another one just because I liked past Final Fantasy games. That's just a reality that folks need to face. You can't package a sh*t gaming experience in HD and expect the illusion to last for long.


We all want FFXIV to succeed - but it won't do it with the way that things are shaping up right now. Unless Square gets with the program and fast, they will be completely overshadowed by other companies who are doing it right.


I don't get why all these reviews are so high; I mean, I know I complain about certain TV channels who have a ***** for certain games, but what's the point of having a scale of 0% to 100% if everyone scores 80-100? It's almost like the no child left behind thing has made its way into the entertainment industry; if I had to guess, I'd say that maybe reviewers are scared of giving a game they don't like a negative review for fear of either fan or company backlash. First off, if you're grading on a scale of 0-100%, then no game should ever get a 100%, because there's no such thing as the perfect game. Few games should breach the 97-99% barrier. Most should sit in the 80-95% realm if they're good/great, the 'meh' games should be in the 70-80% range, and the bad games should have 69% or lower. There's no reason to grade 0-100% if you can't provide examples of games that scored in the 30-50% range or lower and why.

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 5:01pm by Mikhalia

Edited, Jul 14th 2010 5:02pm by Mikhalia
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#51 Jul 14 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:
I don't get why all these reviews are so high; I mean, I know I complain about certain TV channels who have a ***** for certain games, but what's the point of having a scale of 0% to 100% if everyone scores 80-100? It's almost like the no child left behind thing has made its way into the entertainment industry; if I had to guess, I'd say that maybe reviewers are scared of giving a game they don't like a negative review for fear of either fan or company backlash. First off, if you're grading on a scale of 0-100%, then no game should ever get a 100%, because there's no such thing as the perfect game. Few games should breach the 97-99% barrier. Most should sit in the 80-95% realm if they're good/great, the 'meh' games should be in the 70-80% range, and the bad games should have 69% or lower. There's no reason to grade 0-100% if you can't provide examples of games that scored in the 30-50% range or lower and why.


Yes, yes, we'd all love to see more terrible games. But the NRA needs time to produce them, so we have to be patient.
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