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Time to scrap Auto Translator?Follow

#1 Jul 15 2010 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I know we all love the auto trans {Right}?

That was an example though because that means right as a direction, not asking a question.

What I'm wonder is if SE just make a text translate function similar to Google/Bing or just build a better auto-trans? Each has benefit and problems.

Translators are going to have the inherit problem of miss translation but should give around 70% to 80% accurate translate of what you are saying. Another would have to choose what language to speak in be it japanese, german, french, italian, engish, spanish.

Auto-Translator has the inherit problem of not having the phrase you need to convey what you are trying to say. Also miss use can create misunderstand. {May}{Bee} is a month insect instead of maybe.

Just wondering what everyone else thinks.

PS: I made this thread about a year ago but it derailed so I didn't necro post.
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#2 Jul 15 2010 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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i thought the auto-translator in ffxi was fine, maybe a little tweaking needed but definetly makes things alot easier
#3 Jul 15 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
I personally was a fan of the auto-translator. Not for talking with people in different languages, but for being able to quickly type out the rather long and strange area names in Vana'diel.
#4 Jul 15 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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To this day, I still cannot spell Konatcsctachahtchahtcha Highlands.

Thanks, FFXI auto-translator!
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#5 Jul 15 2010 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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As long as SE has learned their lesson and stays on top of it, I'm pretty sure adding new phrases to the auto translator is easy. It was just their incompetence that kept them from adding certain phrases.

Meh, we'll see.
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#6 Jul 15 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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I can tell you for sure that translation services like Google Translate do not translate between English and Japanese with 70 to 80% accuracy. Though GT is more on the mark than Babelfish, nothing really gets the job done. Even if SE went for a full text translation service, it would need to incorporate its own in-game terms, and you'd be required to spell them perfectly or else they wouldn't get translated. On top of that, the AT gets you to use standardized expressions that translate perfectly every time. If you don't have that, people will just use whatever misspelled slang greetings/expressions/etc. they want, which would lead to highly inconsistent translation for things that should be simple.

Ultimately, while the AT could use some improvement, it's a far more effective system than full text translation for the sake of an MMO.

If you really want to see how well translation services work, just check out http://www.translationparty.com/

Edited, Jul 15th 2010 11:19am by TraumaFox
#7 Jul 15 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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I liked the auto-translator. Sure, there were a few words that could have been modified/improved. Such as "Right" could have been "Right (direction)" so people know they're talking about the direction.

A translation system like Google would be a nightmare. You must understand that different languages have different sentence structures, especially when comparing English to many Asian languages. Japanese, for example, has a system that omits the subject of a sentence, while English doesn't. When you put such a sentence in Google's translator, it turns out very weird in English.

Let me give you an example of converting a couple of Thai (another language in which you can omit the subject) sentences to English:

*********** what charge 3500 baht loan is a small condo alone. Open Air single machine.

List of 2000 ประ the mother of the complete indifference to it in 2400.
Completed a month ago, 3100 and last month than in 3500.[/quote]

Do you have ANY idea what I put into the translator before it completely butchered the meaning?

The auto-translator was fine. It provided quick translation to basic commands and words so you can communicate with others on a basic level. Simply put, it did its job.

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#8 Jul 15 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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I was fine with the auto translator, and think it has two advantages, and they're both the same thing:

1) People are lazy and tend to abbreviate things instead of typing them out.
Many people don't feel like typing out Valkurm Dunes or Konschtat Highlands or Labyrinth of Onzozo. Three or four letters, tab, bam: you instantly convey what you're trying to get across without needing to abbreviate things unnecessarily.

2) People are lazy and tend to abbreviate things instead of typing them out.
PT LFM 1 DD 4 merits at bird camp then gtg
鳥キャンプでのPT LFは1DD 4のメリットをg2g
The Bird camp has 1DD benefits LF PT 4 g2g

Absolutely destroyed. Every word in the English net abysmal, the meat you can mouse over the details, you can communicate who you are or better. Well, this small section, Google translation twice, was supplied through a look at how horrible it turned out.

Get the point? No? Exactly.
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#9 Jul 15 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I would rather see something like the Atlas translator from Fuji used.
#10 Jul 15 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Machine translation English <-> Japanese is horrible. Not gonna happen.
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#11 Jul 15 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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The auto translator was fine, if you just took a minute to actually think about what you were doing.

If you are asked a yes or no question, answer (Yes), not (Right).

It's common sense, languages are built differently. If you have a word with multiple meanings in your language, go with the most basic synonym. Don't use slang. And keep it as simple, bare bones as possible. Kind of like when you are talking to someone who is a bit "slow", so that you get the basic meaning behind what you are trying to communicate across. The more you embellish it, the more it's going to be butchered on the other end of the translator.





Edited, Jul 15th 2010 10:40pm by Fetter
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#12 Jul 15 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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#13 Jul 15 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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I loved the auto-translate. I like what they are talking about with logo type stuff as well. A big HEAL ME sign would, in fact be useful for those parties with new, distracted, or lazy healer types.

I do hope they add some more words and phrases though.
#14 Jul 15 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
I loved the auto-translate. I like what they are talking about with logo type stuff as well. A big HEAL ME sign would, in fact be useful for those parties with new, distracted, or lazy healer types.

I do hope they add some more words and phrases though.


There are three types of healers; good healers, bad healers, and okay healers.

The thing that varies between them is exactly how well they perform.

The thing that they all have in common is that "HEAL ME" in all caps is almost certainly likely to get them to intentionally NOT heal you and let you die. YMMV.
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#15 Jul 15 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There are three types of healers; good healers, bad healers, and okay healers.

The thing that varies between them is exactly how well they perform.

The thing that they all have in common is that "HEAL ME" in all caps is almost certainly likely to get them to intentionally NOT heal you and let you die.


As a hardcore healer - this comment made me smile. I can't think of a time when anyone did that all caps to me... oh... yes, I can... and I did want to let them die... but I didn't... because I am just nice that way. That said - the person I am thinking of was a royal pain regardless.

Still - I think what square was saying about little logos rather than having to type a bunch makes sense, and I like it.
#16 Jul 15 2010 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
Quote:
There are three types of healers; good healers, bad healers, and okay healers.

The thing that varies between them is exactly how well they perform.

The thing that they all have in common is that "HEAL ME" in all caps is almost certainly likely to get them to intentionally NOT heal you and let you die.


As a hardcore healer - this comment made me smile. I can't think of a time when anyone did that all caps to me... oh... yes, I can... and I did want to let them die... but I didn't... because I am just nice that way. That said - the person I am thinking of was a royal pain regardless.

Still - I think what square was saying about little logos rather than having to type a bunch makes sense, and I like it.


You see my point though? Even though you didn't actually do it, you wanted to. :)
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#17 Jul 15 2010 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
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You see my point though? Even though you didn't actually do it, you wanted to. :)


yep. point taken.

:)
#18 Jul 15 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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The auto-translator was great for communicating simply with players of other languages, but the greatest thing about it was that it auto-filled the convoluted zone names! I think I used it more to communicate with other English speakers in various contexts than I did to translate to JP players. I think every MMO should have such a feature!
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#19 Jul 16 2010 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
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Auto-translate is probably going to become more important than ever, since based on all the screenshots we've had, it looks like NPC and mob names are localized by region instead of universally English (like in XI). While I'm not sure how that would fit into the actual auto-translator, since that would probably make lists very cluttered, there has to be some solution to insure all players are able to refer to the same name in multiple languages.
#20 Jul 16 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Quote:
There are three types of healers; good healers, bad healers, and okay healers.

The thing that varies between them is exactly how well they perform.

The thing that they all have in common is that "HEAL ME" in all caps is almost certainly likely to get them to intentionally NOT heal you and let you die.


As a hardcore healer - this comment made me smile. I can't think of a time when anyone did that all caps to me... oh... yes, I can... and I did want to let them die... but I didn't... because I am just nice that way. That said - the person I am thinking of was a royal pain regardless.

Still - I think what square was saying about little logos rather than having to type a bunch makes sense, and I like it.


You see my point though? Even though you didn't actually do it, you wanted to. :)


I'm tell you, popping a Potion was far more effective way to get the healer to pay attention.

The whole party would notice - it's not rude, you're just trying to stay alive.

Also, if you are dipping toward 0, either your healer/party is sub-par or you are overcamping. True?
#21 Jul 16 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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RufuSwho wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Quote:
There are three types of healers; good healers, bad healers, and okay healers.

The thing that varies between them is exactly how well they perform.

The thing that they all have in common is that "HEAL ME" in all caps is almost certainly likely to get them to intentionally NOT heal you and let you die.


As a hardcore healer - this comment made me smile. I can't think of a time when anyone did that all caps to me... oh... yes, I can... and I did want to let them die... but I didn't... because I am just nice that way. That said - the person I am thinking of was a royal pain regardless.

Still - I think what square was saying about little logos rather than having to type a bunch makes sense, and I like it.


You see my point though? Even though you didn't actually do it, you wanted to. :)


I'm tell you, popping a Potion was far more effective way to get the healer to pay attention.

The whole party would notice - it's not rude, you're just trying to stay alive.

Also, if you are dipping toward 0, either your healer/party is sub-par or you are overcamping. True?


I let peopel die before.. not often but if i was low on mana and they kept pullign and screming heal me! HEAL ME! OMG HEAL ME!! when i had no mana to begin with... yeah they died :P I was a good healer though.. i miss it snif snif...

And yeah popping a potion works well to get attention as well as us healers apreicate it if were low on mana or if our system were lagging.. (used to have heal potions if i was havign a laggy net day, gave them to tank :P)
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#22 Jul 16 2010 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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yeah well if people pull when the whm is on their *** with no mp - they deserve what they get. crikes I was a taru with as much MP boosting/mp recovered while healing gear/food as I could get my hands on and people would still be pulling when I was on empty - and I was **** good at conserving my mp too.

As another poster somewhere around here said you can't ((cure)) stupid...

Edited, Jul 16th 2010 5:14pm by Olorinus
#23 Jul 16 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I really liked the auto translator...maybe a little to much. I started speaking in auto-translator in real life due to using it so much.

(thank you for the offer, but I'll have to pass) has become my normal way of saying 'no' due to using that thing for like...3 years straight. I really hope they bring it back honestly.
#24 Jul 16 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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SideCH wrote:
I really liked the auto translator...maybe a little to much. I started speaking in auto-translator in real life due to using it so much.

(thank you for the offer, but I'll have to pass) has become my normal way of saying 'no' due to using that thing for like...3 years straight. I really hope they bring it back honestly.


I'm guilty of this too.
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#25 Jul 17 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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Considering how bad full text translation programs are, let's just forget about them altogether and think about how to fix the Auto-Translater.

As I see it AT problems generally fall into three categories: the user selects the wrong word or phrase (<Right> instead of <Yes> for instance), the user can't find the words to correctly convey his message, or the user is a moron and thinks Japanese players will understand <man>nequin. Players generally select the wrong word because the word they select has multiple meanings in their own language, but not in the one being translated to. Contextual hints are necessary, as pointed out by Threx, and the solution offered is simple enough, but the translated text probably doesn't need to include the context hint. As long as the context going in is correct, the context going out will probably be too. As an example, the player uses the AT to write:

<Goblin World-Ruiner><Position><Right(Direction)><Be careful!>

His party members should see:

Player: <Goblin World-Ruiner><Position><Right><Be careful!>

And this is enough information received.

Not being able to find the words is probably more a function of the fact that the menus for finding phrases in FFXI is clunky, and trying to guess what phrases are included is a crap-shoot. Better menus are needed. This is something they need to hire a linguist for, someone who knows how people form their ideas and turn them into words, so that menus can be created based on how people think. This could actually be a very time-consuming and costly project, but undoubtedly very helpful for a multilingual game where cooperation is paramount. Perhaps another way to help players create AT sentences is to have them type a whole sentence, then suggest several combinations of AT phrases so they can choose the one that most closely resembles their original intent. It's kind of like a full text translator, but with more control over the output and that still uses the fragmentary messages we've come to love. As an example, a player enters:

/sh Does anyone have a Horned Goblin Codpiece I can buy? 2000 gil.

and then hits Tab. The AT might spit out something like:

/sh <Horned Goblin Codpiece><Looking to buy> 2000 gil.

and perhaps a few variations. This makes the AT much easier to use. This might also be very difficult to implement.

As for the third problem, the idiots, I can only think of a mandatory crash-course for using the AT with a short lesson on translation and a community effort to educate genuinely ignorant players while shunning those who misuse the AT simply because they can't be bothered to try. Seriously, <man>nequin?
#26 Jul 17 2010 at 3:09 AM Rating: Decent
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In all fairness though, those problems are partially the fault of the person using them as much as they are the fault of the translator. Less so, usually.

I agree that there are issues with things like "Right"/"Yes" and "back"/"I'm Back!", but stuff like <man>nequin is just the person typing them being an idiot.
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#27 Jul 17 2010 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Okay, so it seems everyone is happy with Auto-Trans but it needs more/better words to express meaning. I stated a thread in feedback, http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1279202845105639139&page=1#msg1279368214177755839 to add words/phrase you think we need.
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