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Death in FFXIVFollow

#1 Jul 15 2010 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Hey guys! Ok first off sorry if this subject has already been approached in these forums, I did have a quick scan and couldn't find anything.

Was it just me or did dying in FFXI one of the worst things ever in MMO history? losing exp!!?? wtf man, and especially when at times it could be so hard to take along time to replenish this lost exp, mainly due to past lvl 10 you HAD to party and train in a 6 member party (with the exception of BST i know).

Was just wondering if anyone had any info on this subject with FFXIV and what happens if you die / KO?
#2 Jul 15 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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As of this juncture, only those in the beta test know. They've said in several interviews that they'd try it out with no penalty first, and they might test out smaller penalties just to see how people react, and that if they ultimately did have a death penalty it would be small. My guess is they're testing that out right now, and that it's probably not as harsh as XI. If the testers have a really negative response to it, we can assume it'll be dialed back, so in the end the severity of the penalty is determined mostly by the community.
#3 Jul 15 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
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I think in one of the interviews they said that the current death penalty is temporary lowered HP. Like half of your max HP or something.
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#4 Jul 15 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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So far only thing I know of is weakness just like in ffxi, and the CE helm quickens the weakness process. How much don't know yet.
#5 Jul 15 2010 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
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The worst death penalty I've seen is lost exp + lost gear. When you die, you'll be literally naked at the last save point, then you have to run back and get your corpse. If you were not able to pick up your corpse after a certain period of time, you corpse would disappear and the gears would just lay on the ground for anyone to pick up. Then if no one picked up the gears for a period of time, the gear would just disappear.

The worst part of death penalty in ffxi is the level down part. I'm actually ok to lose exp as a penalty, but level down is really bad...
#6 Jul 15 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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You talking about Diablo? lol
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#7 Jul 15 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Default
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dunlag wrote:
The worst death penalty I've seen is lost exp + lost gear. When you die, you'll be literally naked at the last save point, then you have to run back and get your corpse. If you were not able to pick up your corpse after a certain period of time, you corpse would disappear and the gears would just lay on the ground for anyone to pick up. Then if no one picked up the gears for a period of time, the gear would just disappear.

The worst part of death penalty in ffxi is the level down part. I'm actually ok to lose exp as a penalty, but level down is really bad...


And you lost money, too; but lolmoney.

Personally, I'd rather lose XP than have to repair my gear; XP is free, repairs are not.

I do think they should put a cap on lost XP such that you can't level down and at most can be dropped to 0 XP into level; the concept of having to hit 75, and then grind out MORE XP before going into merit mode, just to have as a death buffer, was rather annoying. The jackasses who wasted time and MP by refusing R1 when in a time crunch were just as bad.
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#8 Jul 15 2010 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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lol yea, I missed the money...besides diablo, there's an old game from microsoft called Asheron's Call was also like that too...
#9 Jul 15 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Default
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Lowered HP, a temp weakness, anything but a loss of exp or transporting you to an entirely different area i dont mind! :D
#10 Jul 15 2010 at 11:34 AM Rating: Default
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I remember I had just leveled up into a new gear set in ffxi. I had to sell my level 14 gear for the money to buy lvl 15 gear. (may have the levels wrong) I was a pld tank and on my way to my exp party that was waiting for me and I felt cool in my new gear. (scorpion something havent played in years) I accidently dismounted and was killed in the jungle by a Goblin. I de-leveled out of my new gear and had sold my old gear to pay for the new gear and had 0 gil. Of course the party didn't want a naked tank so I was screwed for a few days.

I did like the loss of exp despite my bad experience because it brought you into the game more. Reading the text that "your sneak is wearing off" while running through a long hallway full of mobs was more exciting knowing you would lose 2 hours of exp if you screwed up.
#11 Jul 15 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Ashron's Call
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"Corpse runs" are ridiculous. It occurred to me that the largest percentage of people who quit these games probably left their corpse laying in some god-forsaken place. The thought of retreiving it was just too horrible to make you want to play any more. In the original Everquest you could easily lose a weeks worth of exp'ing in one death.

That said, the "Level Down" text and sound effect was likely the most depressing thing in all of FFXI.

Ashron's Call 2 had a much better system - you lost a percentage of your total stats but the healer class could actually remove the effect with a spell.

I would suggest this: whatever the penalty is (not exp!) can be removed by a healer.

"Level Down" is not a good way to add consequences to the world, but some consequence is necessary. I want to be actually anxious trying to make a run through some creepy high level area. That feeling of dread is somehow pretty fun!

#12 Jul 15 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't mind any type of temporary health/status penalties. I used to despise losing xp from a death though. Worst was when you ended up tanking for a party with crappy or no support. Then you finished the session with less xp than what you started with.

Now what I would love is no xp penalty and a prompt to either spawn where you died or your last checkpoint (if they have them).
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#13 Jul 15 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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dunlag wrote:
lol yea, I missed the money...besides diablo, there's an old game from microsoft called Asheron's Call was also like that too...


Asheron's call... brings back nice memorys. No loss in exp that made me hate any other MMO that makes you lose exp on death. Anoying to cary 10 expensive items to save yoursel from losing equipment. (AC had low value on money so it was not hard carrying high value items).

Games I hate is where you lose all equipment. For that reason I never played Everquest longer then the free month. I fall down in some big dungeon and die, and imposible to get equipment back.... then I have no gold, and no equip.... and can't kill anything that will give me exp... so I stoped playing. I tryed EQ 3 times too, it was just too harsh for a beginner.

I want to be able to die in a hard mission/quest and not care if I get a R1 or R3.
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#14 Jul 15 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ah, the good old EQ days of having 10+ corpses in Blackburrow because you could only drag your corpse once before dying again...
#15 Jul 15 2010 at 6:54 PM Rating: Decent
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In a certain MUD I used to play, you could easily lose all of your gear and a week or more worth of progression by dying. And the worst part was if you killed someone, a bounty would go out on you and you'd be hunted by high levels who would kill you, take all of your current money and gear, and then you go to jail. No wait, the worst part was that all it took for you to kill someone was for someone really weak to attack you first. You'd kill them instantly and then be screwed.

It was an absurdly hardcore game. Only a handful of people reached max level.
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#16 Jul 15 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Decent
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It sounds like Achaea- well that MUD was like that too.

Edited, Jul 16th 2010 9:09pm by Olorinus
#17 Jul 16 2010 at 8:47 PM Rating: Default
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I dont know, i am kind of in favor of losing exp for death (this coming from a career pld). Having such a severe penalty for dieing made everyone focus more and made sure they didnt ***** up. But, as one poster alluded to, thinking back to times when I was traveling through unfriendly, aggro heavy zones and seeing the words "sneak is about to wear off" and then frantically searching for a safe area to recast/pop a sneak oil still sends chills.
Sure there were incredibly annoying times in XI that were directly related to its exp penalty for death (ie. bad party, sneaking/inv wearing off at the worst possible time, etc) but I believe it added a whole dynamic to the game.
But with that said, I fear if exp is not a penalty for death, players will be more careless about dangerous situations or even in party situations.



Edited, Jul 17th 2010 2:37am by Raionn
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#18 Jul 16 2010 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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I too worry about the loss of concentration and focus if they remove loss of XP from death. I am however on the fence on this one. I hate losing such a large % of XP for dying but love that it made the game that much harder. In the end all that was left were dedicated players that did not want to mess around. Let's play, not wipe. Find replacements and not ditch. FFXI was chock full of these great people but man oh man after 40 hours of killing birds for xp I do not want to lose it because my sneak wore off!!! Maybe increase the gear deterioration and rez sickness from wow?



Edited, Jul 16th 2010 11:28pm by AstallGH
#19 Jul 16 2010 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

"Corpse runs" are ridiculous.


I would much rather take 20-30seconds to run to my corpse (this is how long it takes in diablo and wow), than have 10 minutes of weakness or any other set back that completely ruins the game by holding not only you back but the rest of your group as well. Not to mention the mental restrictions it places on players when deciding whether to try something or not. I am 100% against rez sickness. I don't mind having to pay for repairs in games created by normal people where you can actually make a decent amount of money without spending hours of your life doing so.

Most of all, level downs can burn a volcano.

Edited, Jul 16th 2010 8:26pm by GuardianFaith
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#20 Jul 16 2010 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
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I'd prefer res sickness to a corpse run. I don't mind losing some XP, just so long as a level down is impossible (it caps xp lost at the level minimum), although I would prefer not to have it.

As to whether I would prefer gear damage or losing XP... that depends on whether it's easier to get XP or money.
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#21 Jul 16 2010 at 10:13 PM Rating: Default
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/my opinion/ rez sickness is lame - corpse runs are lame- exp loss is no fun but it makes perverse kind of sense - if earning gil is as stupid as it was in FFXI then I would rather lose exp than have to pay to fix EQ - level downs? ((no thanks)) - it is important for death to carry a reasonable penalty /my opinion/
#22 Jul 16 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Good
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One of the things I liked about XI is because of the mean penalties, players really tried to not die, which caused them to usually plan out things much better as well as try to play better. If it's too lax and no on cares if they die, they put less effort into staying alive.
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#23 Jul 17 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Frankly I don't really care if there are any death penalties so long as they prevent zombie zerg tactics one way or another. The most fun I've had in any video games have been attempting the very challenging boss fights where you die many times over and over... there's no penalty for losing-- you just try again fresh in however long it takes you to reload your file. I've still spent hours trying to clear single battles, and some of those were designed by none other than SE.
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#24 Jul 17 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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I'd prefer res sickness to a corpse run. I don't mind losing some XP, just so long as a level down is impossible (it caps xp lost at the level minimum), although I would prefer not to have it.

As to whether I would prefer gear damage or losing XP... that depends on whether it's easier to get XP or money.


^ This.


I'd love to see un-dinging removed from the gaming world entirely. It's way too punitive.

Nobody really knows yet if gear damage will be a part of death though. If I had to take a guess, I'd say it'll be from wear and tear only. But that's just a guess.
#25 Jul 17 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd love to see un-dinging removed from the gaming world entirely. It's way too punitive.


I agree too, but once you take the un-ding element out, you'll get fools that wouldn't mind chain dieing because there is nothing to lose. Maybe add an additive death penalty debuff to the non-ding? The first DP debuff isn't too harsh but once they get a few more, the character is close to useless?
#26 Jul 17 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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I'd love to see un-dinging removed from the gaming world entirely. It's way too punitive.


I agree too, but once you take the un-ding element out, you'll get fools that wouldn't mind chain dieing because there is nothing to lose. Maybe add an additive death penalty debuff to the non-ding? The first DP debuff isn't too harsh but once they get a few more, the character is close to useless?



EQ2 had a pretty good system for this called EXP Debt. Basically you rack up an exp "debt" each time you die. The debt is based off the total exp required to ding at your level. I think it went in increments of 3%. You couldn't de-level, but if you kept dying you'd have more and more work to do in order to get that next level.

Though I doubt SE would just blatantly copy this.
#27 Jul 17 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
EQ2 had a pretty good system for this called EXP Debt. Basically you rack up an exp "debt" each time you die. The debt is based off the total exp required to ding at your level. I think it went in increments of 3%. You couldn't de-level, but if you kept dying you'd have more and more work to do in order to get that next level.


Yes I remember that system. It doesn't seem much of a penalty, but the XP debt sure adds up fairly quickly. But once you reach max level, I think player could ignore the penalty. It might have been more effective if they also added the penalty to the Alternate Advancement XP system too.
#28 Jul 17 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
EQ2 had a pretty good system for this called EXP Debt. Basically you rack up an exp "debt" each time you die. The debt is based off the total exp required to ding at your level. I think it went in increments of 3%. You couldn't de-level, but if you kept dying you'd have more and more work to do in order to get that next level.


This may be good while you are still able to level up, but if you think further when you reach your max level, all end-game fight/boss fight play will be dummy-proof as you can die hundreds/thousands/millions of times to kill Boss and u suffer nothing lost. Which means you have enough people to raise, the boss is dead for sure, which create nothing but bored end-gaming. You can also call max level end gaming as invicible play mode as long as not all people in the party is dead?

If the debts are not going to affect any effiency to damage/speed/def of the character, i doubt anyone will care about the amount of debt that have been stacking. If you happen to stack your debt too much and a new version update patch release increases the level cap(maybe like ffXI) then it will force much more people to quit the game i guess.

Edited, Jul 17th 2010 5:51pm by RECCO
#29 Jul 17 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
EQ2 had a pretty good system for this called EXP Debt. Basically you rack up an exp "debt" each time you die. The debt is based off the total exp required to ding at your level. I think it went in increments of 3%. You couldn't de-level, but if you kept dying you'd have more and more work to do in order to get that next level.


This may be good while you are still able to level up, but if you think further when you reach your max level, all end-game fight/boss fight play will be dummy-proof as you can die hundreds/thousands/millions of times to kill Boss and u suffer nothing lost. Which means you have enough people to raise, the boss is dead for sure, which create nothing but bored end-gaming. You can also call max level end gaming as invicible play mode as long as not all people in the party is dead?


Well, I wasn't really saying this is or should be the only death penalty. Just an alternative to the deleveling aspect of dying.

I'm totally for a weakened state after dying; that's pretty commonplace in MMOs. Also, as gear is going to have durability in XIV, getting beat on over and over again will definitely affect the scenario you've just listed.
#30 Jul 17 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Well, I wasn't really saying this is or should be the only death penalty. Just an alternative to the deleveling aspect of dying.

I'm totally for a weakened state after dying; that's pretty commonplace in MMOs. Also, as gear is going to have durability in XIV, getting beat on over and over again will definitely affect the scenario you've just listed.


I did not totally say debt is bad, only for the end gaming. Maybe to improve more on a debt system, that could be to give a duration to clear the existing debt, else will still be leveled down or maybe add certain restriction to gaming while the player is in debt. If not most people tends to ignore the debt as it does not affect them even if they left it there for months.
#31 Jul 17 2010 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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The punishment for "too much dying" should be that you lose the battle because you're dying, or that it's taking you longer than it theoretically could... I don't think the punishment should be, "lose xp and along with it, your will to keep trying the battle."

I dunno. I guess I'm of the crazy philosophy that games should be fun and not punish you for playing them.
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Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#32 Jul 17 2010 at 7:59 PM Rating: Decent
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RECCO wrote:
Quote:
EQ2 had a pretty good system for this called EXP Debt. Basically you rack up an exp "debt" each time you die. The debt is based off the total exp required to ding at your level. I think it went in increments of 3%. You couldn't de-level, but if you kept dying you'd have more and more work to do in order to get that next level.


This may be good while you are still able to level up, but if you think further when you reach your max level, all end-game fight/boss fight play will be dummy-proof as you can die hundreds/thousands/millions of times to kill Boss and u suffer nothing lost. Which means you have enough people to raise, the boss is dead for sure, which create nothing but bored end-gaming. You can also call max level end gaming as invicible play mode as long as not all people in the party is dead?

If the debts are not going to affect any effiency to damage/speed/def of the character, i doubt anyone will care about the amount of debt that have been stacking. If you happen to stack your debt too much and a new version update patch release increases the level cap(maybe like ffXI) then it will force much more people to quit the game i guess.

Edited, Jul 17th 2010 5:51pm by RECCO


in eq2 u break your gear too , and menders are usually at towns / citys, so u really u dont want to die, 10% /death , 10 deaths and u need to call home....pay the repair (not cheap but money in Eq2 isnt a problem )...and ruuuuuuuuun back ......that takes more than 15 mins usually

oh and at max level u still need to "Exp" to get AAs , (like FFXI merits) , so dying still hurts your exp at max lvl

on topic:

losing Exp is lame , lvl down kill the fun at max lvl (ask any pld :P or blood puller )

imo sickness for 5 mins is ok if u revive....however if u get raised a 3 mins sickness ?

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#33 Jul 17 2010 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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in eq2 u break your gear too , and menders are usually at towns / citys, so u really u dont want to die, 10% /death , 10 deaths and u need to call home....pay the repair (not cheap but money in Eq2 isnt a problem )...and ruuuuuuuuun back ......that takes more than 15 mins usually


Well not exactly.

* Either you or someone can toss out a repair bot to fix your gear.
* Guild Halls at the right level have cheap mender NPCs.
* You get a free ride back to your guild hall.
* If someone drops a rally flag at the entrance or location where you were at, you can use the guild rally NPC
to bring you back to the action for free.
* There are also other guild related perks which will give everyone a quick way to pretty much any point within the EQ2 universe.
#34 Jul 17 2010 at 8:18 PM Rating: Good
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They need to either make it rez sickness or a slight exp loss, but not both. Both is pretty cruel.

And for the love of god, no deleveling.
#35 Jul 17 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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They need to either make it rez sickness or a slight exp loss, but not both. Both is pretty cruel. 
 
And for the love of god, no deleveling.


^ I'd be content with this. Though I would much prefer to lose xp than have sickness. At least I can gain my xp back instead of having to wait.
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#36 Jul 17 2010 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
The punishment for "too much dying" should be that you lose the battle because you're dying, or that it's taking you longer than it theoretically could... I don't think the punishment should be, "lose xp and along with it, your will to keep trying the battle."

I dunno. I guess I'm of the crazy philosophy that games should be fun and not punish you for playing them.

This. I don't understand why games have penalties for dying in the first place. The fact that I'm wasting time being dead is a large enough disincentive for me to die, I don't need to lose an entire exp party's worth of work as well. I also despise resurrection sickness, because now, on top of losing time getting back to the place where I was, I'm completely useless for 10 or 15 or however many minutes. And since I'm so completely useless, if I'm in a very hostile area, my odds of dying once again are pretty **** high.
#37 Jul 17 2010 at 10:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
The punishment for "too much dying" should be that you lose the battle because you're dying, or that it's taking you longer than it theoretically could... I don't think the punishment should be, "lose xp and along with it, your will to keep trying the battle."

I dunno. I guess I'm of the crazy philosophy that games should be fun and not punish you for playing them.

This. I don't understand why games have penalties for dying in the first place. The fact that I'm wasting time being dead is a large enough disincentive for me to die, I don't need to lose an entire exp party's worth of work as well. I also despise resurrection sickness, because now, on top of losing time getting back to the place where I was, I'm completely useless for 10 or 15 or however many minutes. And since I'm so completely useless, if I'm in a very hostile area, my odds of dying once again are pretty **** high.


I'm also of the crazy philosophy that games should be fun. However I don't agree with the quoted post. This is not a single player game.

Your parties must have been truly abysmal to not make up for a death, and weakness is 5 minutes. But that's just nitpicking.

A death penalty system in one form or another is a part of MMO life. I can't think of a single MMO that doesn't have one. None that I've played, anyway. And I've played a good amount of them. It exists because of a fundamental principal in almost any society -- Failure. Dying in game is, at it's very essence a failure. What type of failure varies with every different individual situation, of course. We, as humans punish failure to one extent or another. Thus, the in-game death penalty. I say all this with no dishing out of blame. It is what it is.

Now, I'm not saying it has to be anything overly severe. In XI you need 42k to level to 75 from 74. Dying and HP'ing costs you 2,400 exp. That's pretty harsh. And it used to be harsher years ago. I can see 1,000 with a 42k requirement, if there were to be an exp loss in XIV. As it stands nobody knows if there will be or not. Not even Beta testers.

Rez sickness seems like a much more realistic (and less punitive) penalty. It could be like XI's. Slow effect, lowered max HP/MP. You could still perform in an exp party while you waited it off. Your party would just have to take it a bit easier. This is what I think most MMO gamers would call a pretty soft core option, as far as death penalties go.

We already know armor/weapons will suffer from durability loss. Whether or not this will be worsened by dying is unknown.

Death penalties are not going away. Again, they don't have to be harsh, and I'm hoping they won't be in XIV. But it's a part of MMO life.


#38RECCO, Posted: Jul 18 2010 at 5:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Maybe to say something that is more cruel.
#39 Jul 18 2010 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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I really don't care what the death penalty is as long as it's not AS bad as it was in FFXI. I don't mind losing some exp, but I do mind losing 10% of it. At the higher lvls, you'd spend several hours getting lots of exp in a party and then the next party may not be as good and you can die one time and lose all the hours of work you put into the game getting to where you were. Like I said, I don't mind having exp loss, as long as it's not 10% of your current lvl. Maybe around 3% would be perfectly fine. There were several times when I'd spend several days partying to get to the level required for my next upgrade in armor. I'd leave go get it feel awsome in my new shiny armor and then get a party and then die in the first pull. It would then take several hours to get back to where I was....

I also really don't want to delevel. I've heard a lot of talk about an exp debt. I'd be perfectly fine with that. I will however admit that with no deleveling, there could be issues when you hit the max level. That's where I think we would need the rez sickness. So all in all, I'm all for maybe a 3% exp loss and rez sickness with no deleveling. Those are my thoughts. If there is a really low exp loss like around 3%, I could probably deal with the deleveling, since chances are it wont take days to get back the exp I lost with 1 death. 10% loss is just way too much.
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#40 Jul 18 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't like when I die and people sit on me. Okay, I guess it's kinda funny.

I think there needs to be a down-time after death to promote restrategising. I'm against exp loss, but I've a feeling that won't be an issue in FFXIV.

Weapon durability? As in, weapons breaking? Ooo...that's going to change alot! Yeah, for long time quests a party will want someone that can repair. Oh! How about mobs that have a special attack that breaks weapons/armor? Scary thought. Wow, this could be a really big deal.
#41 Jul 18 2010 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
Weapons and armor won't break acccording to SE. They'll just be reduced to uselessness I'd imagine.
#42 Jul 18 2010 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Weapons and armor won't break acccording to SE. They'll just be reduced to uselessness I'd imagine.


Sure, but when deep in a dungeon the result's the same; you've no weapon.

Okay, I found some info (right here in ZAM, hehehohohaha), that explains that yes, while your weapon/armor will "break" (become unusable), you won't lose it and you can get it fixed from a blacksmith (depending upon their skill). If the blacksmith (or whatever craft type you need, weaver for cloth, etc) fails to repair it, you won't lose it.
#43 Jul 18 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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So your saying that if someone has a cloth armor "break" on them then they'll either have to have an NPC repair it or go to another player who is a cloth crafter and maybe they can fix it? Nice. Gil making opportunity anyone? Or maybe free for possible skill ups for the crafter.
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#44 Jul 19 2010 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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swisa wrote:
So your saying that if someone has a cloth armor "break" on them then they'll either have to have an NPC repair it or go to another player who is a cloth crafter and maybe they can fix it? Nice. Gil making opportunity anyone? Or maybe free for possible skill ups for the crafter.


Absolutly. It seems the rule is whatever craft type it takes to make it, that's the type that repairs it. So, if your leather armor's damaged, you need to find yourself a tanner.

I can't find anything official regarding the need for additional components to repair, but it would make sence to need something.

Oh, and they're looking into creating a place just for us to gather specificly for crafting. Like, an area for crafters all over the world to come to show off their wares, accept crafting jobs, and to socialize with others. *grin* You just know that place is going to be busy.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 2:04am by Futzbucket
#45 Jul 19 2010 at 12:10 AM Rating: Good
Futzbucket wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Weapons and armor won't break acccording to SE. They'll just be reduced to uselessness I'd imagine.


Sure, but when deep in a dungeon the result's the same; you've no weapon.

Okay, I found some info (right here in ZAM, hehehohohaha), that explains that yes, while your weapon/armor will "break" (become unusable), you won't lose it and you can get it fixed from a blacksmith (depending upon their skill). If the blacksmith (or whatever craft type you need, weaver for cloth, etc) fails to repair it, you won't lose it.


That's essentially what I meant Smiley: wink

But you're right in saying that having armor in complete disrepair in a dungeon is going to be just as good as if it crumbles to pieces. I guess the difference being that you'll at least not lose it entirely, as it can be fixed later on.
#46 Jul 19 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I hope the Death in FFXIV is similar to FFXI.

When going to WoW from FFXI i noticed that I stopped caring about death entirely as WoW's punishment isn't really all that punishing. FFXI with the loss of xp on death purely sucks... but that's what's good about it. Real consequence for stuffing up made people cautious about where they pt'd, who they pt'd with etc.

Caution was good, fear the mobs! The mobs will kill yoooo!
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#47 Jul 19 2010 at 3:31 AM Rating: Good
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Turn on a mic.

Die.

Play back that recording.

If you said "FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU" then maybe the penalty might be too harsh.
If you said "Dammit." Then the penalty is probably fine.
If you said "Oh well" then the penalty is too low.

Death should suck. It's death. Something should be attributed to death that makes you specifically -not- want to die. If you would consider INTENTIONALLY killing yourself "for the lulz", then the death penalty is too weak. Death should be more than "a minor inconvenience". Again... it's death.

Like I said, I think delevling is way too harsh, but a short corpse run 1-2 minutes to your body and you're no worse for wear is far too lenient. The game needs to intentionally make you want to not die, but it doesn't need to do it in a way where dying makes you want to kill yourself.
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#48 Jul 19 2010 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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This is a great thread that has covered the entire gambit of death penalties. Examples from other games, reasons why death penalties are important to gameplay - this thread has it all!

Can we distill this info down into a penalty that everyone agrees on? Probably not. There are bascially pros and cons to all the suggestions.

Here's what I see:
1.) It's got to be EXP to really make an impact.
2.) The "FFUUU, Dammit, Oh well" Test sums up the severity we are looking for.
3.) And (Please don't fry me with lightning) people at the level cap cannot be immune, so Level Down cannot be avoided.

The most reasonable end-result is an identical system with a lower EXP percentage loss (5% of Level's Required EXP).

You could argue that they just don't have the experience to balance a equip deteriation, exp debt or rez sickness system. (Not on the first try, anyway.) For FFXIV it will be easiest to work with what they know, and dial it in to make a wider user base content.




#49 Jul 19 2010 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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If you are really going for fun only in the game i dont think level is so important to you, somes examples can be found in forum related to other games or even ffxi, some do not clear genkai(cap level quest) or have any max level job but still play happily and enjoy the game.


This is me... and while dying in FFXI sucked at times... I did feel the penalty made sense given the fact that death should suck.

Then again I didn't do endgame content - so I could see it being more of a ****-off at that point of the game. That said if you are just playing to have fun it shouldn't be such a big deal.

It makes me happy to see so many players defending death penalties.

:)

Maybe I am just weird. I was against eq deteriorating - but it looks like that is what is going to happen - and upon further reflection it seems like a cool way to integrate crafting. That said - I sure bloody hope I don't end up getting gouged on it.
#50 Jul 19 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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Thing is, all death penalties, in essence, are time penalties. They force you to expend time to catch up to where you were.

The other thing is, losing is already a time penalty, in that you didn't make the progress you were trying to make. Every time you fail, you're still losing progress time.

Death penalties are really just a redundant mechanic that aren't an adequate substitute for genuinely challenging gameplay.

Edit* And to complete my argument, I'll reiterate that death penalties deter players from even trying when they don't think they will win. In the end, they deter people from actually doing the fun parts of the game-- the challenging parts.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 1:31pm by Kachi
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#51 Jul 19 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't think death penalties deter people from taking calculated risks or doing the things they have to do - especially not if they are balanced.

I think back to a time when my friends who were playing lvl 50 type jobs in quicksand caves had a wipe. The exp penalty set them on the linkshell begging for a raise - and I was the only person with raise who was on and available in the LS - and like level 31-ish... and I had never been there - but that didn't stop me.

Thankfully the day before someone had helped me get fire weather/altepa crystal - and I made the run - I managed to raise two of the three LS members before their time ran out - and without dying. It was exhilarating. Yeah - maybe you could call it a time sink - but it was pretty epic and my LS mates appreciated it.

If dying was no biggie - one of my most epic moments wouldn't have happened... and well - I wouldn't have gotten the adrenalin rush from exploring areas that were really too tough for me to survive in.

Having a death penalty doesn't just make sense - cause you know, dying should suck - it also makes the game more thrilling - and makes taking a risk and surviving more of an achievement.
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