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Death in FFXIVFollow

#52 Jul 19 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
Death should suck. It's death. Something should be attributed to death that makes you specifically -not- want to die. If you would consider INTENTIONALLY killing yourself "for the lulz", then the death penalty is too weak. Death should be more than "a minor inconvenience". Again... it's death.

Like I said, I think delevling is way too harsh, but a short corpse run 1-2 minutes to your body and you're no worse for wear is far too lenient. The game needs to intentionally make you want to not die, but it doesn't need to do it in a way where dying makes you want to kill yourself.

I don't understand this at all. This is an RP sort of viewpoint - you're dying, therefore it should be pretty bad. That's almost masochistic to me. I already had to go through the pain in the *** that is dying - I already failed at whatever I was trying. Why should I have to take a durability penalty on top of it? From another view, if some jackass decides he doesn't like what my party is doing and finds a way to wipe us (from within or without), why should I have to put up with that annoyance and lose some exp as well?

Like Kachi said, I've already lost some time just from the fact that I failed at whatever I was doing. Now, if I lose exp, I have to lose more time earning back what I already had. If I lose durability, then either I waste time going to repair, or I become less effective and more likely to die yet again. I just can't understand a viewpoint that says we need more penalties for dying than the simple fact that you've already wasted time and effort from dying in the first place. Can anyone really argue that FFXI would be a worse game if you had no exp loss on death? Have you ever looked at an encounter and said "Well, I would do this goofy ****, but I'll lose exp if I die"? And if you want to do that goofy ****, why should SE say you have to suffer for it?
#53 Jul 19 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think death penalties deter people from taking calculated risks or doing the things they have to do - especially not if they are balanced.


Well, you're demonstrably wrong on that one. That's pretty much the root of lolJOB and the sort of party-building tactics that prevented people from getting through content like COP. Why risk an hour to do a mission if you think there's a good chance that all you'll get is an xp loss? Why do a BCNM with a group of people you think might just cost you a bunch of seals? If you don't think death penalties prevented people from taking risks, you had your eyes closed. It happened, quite literally, all the time.

Probably the only people it didn't deter were the ones who actually liked grinding xp, which were few and far between.
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#54 Jul 19 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, you're demonstrably wrong on that one. That's pretty much the root of lolJOB and the sort of party-building tactics that prevented people from getting through content like COP. Why risk an hour to do a mission if you think there's a good chance that all you'll get is an xp loss? Why do a BCNM with a group of people you think might just cost you a bunch of seals? If you don't think death penalties prevented people from taking risks, you had your eyes closed. It happened, quite literally, all the time.

Probably the only people it didn't deter were the ones who actually liked grinding xp, which were few and far between.


As an old school "lol-drg" this rings especially true for me. I never got taken to anything since I was the wrong job. By the time I managed to hit level 60 back in the day, everyone I knew had long since hit the 75 cap. However it was hard to get any of them to go and do anything (missions, AF, etc.) mainly because they had to "save" their exp for whatever end game event they were doing. This was around the time of CoP launch so people mainly saved their exp for dynamis or sky, well at least the ones I knew anyway. Besides, who wanted to help the drg do anything? He's the wrong job after all.

...ok I suppose I'm still a bit bitter about that after all this time, even though drg is quite well off these days.

I suppose what got under my skin was the fact that people just wouldn't go out and do anything. If there was a chance we could lose, well forget about even trying. Don't have the right combination of jobs? Same deal.

I do have to say that the addition of campaign greatly helped with exp loss though. Even now I don't much care about eating an HP at level 80 since it only takes 1-2 campaign battles to make it back up. Because of that I find that many more people are willing to go out and actually do things.

In any case, whatever death penalty we do end up with in FFXIV I sincerely hope that people will be willing to go out and do things rather than worrying about saving their exp for whatever event they need to do. After all, it makes the game so much more fun when you actually have people to go out and do stuff.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 5:38pm by Lantesh
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#55 Jul 19 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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FFXI goes to lvl 80 now... wow... that must change the whole sub-job dynamic, eh?

/sorry off topic/
#56 Jul 19 2010 at 8:45 PM Rating: Default
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When you dont suffer exp lost or too little exp lost, something will sure be introduce into the server by some player, which if nothing much is done to it create a tread in the game.

It is call "Botting".

This is not just speculating, but it happens to other online games which i played before. It is make worst when majority of the server starts botting using 3rd party program and nothing could be done(too late) to stop them, that is because if they had to ban, they will have to ban the almost the whole server, so no choice but to let players bot which resulted it to a path of dying game. If penalty is so little that people dont mind dying, they will bot as long every botting earns exp(positively) each time he/she bot.

What usually happen if the game starts to ban players, they will be this group of people(that got ban) that goes around saying "this game sux", asking people not to play this particular game.
#57 Jul 20 2010 at 6:09 AM Rating: Good
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Here's an interesting mechanic option:

Have something at your Mog house (or whatever they call it in XIV) that switches on/off XP.

With the option switched on, you get XP/skills as normal, and you suffer the normal death penalty.

With the option switched off, you do not get any XP/skills at all, but you do not suffer any death penalty.

That way people who are out XPing can play under the normal constraints, and people who are going to do a mission or event or who just want to explore can do so without fear of penalty (aside from not getting skills/xp).

This way, you're only at risk of getting hit with a penalty at the points where you're less likely to die, and the places where you're more likely to die, but won't be doing them for XP anyway, can allow you to not have to play catchup later.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 8:11am by Mikhalia
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#58 Jul 20 2010 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
With the option switched off, you do not get any XP/skills at all, but you do not suffer any death penalty.


Granted, it would be a great feature for people who want to explore. But if XIV's endgame is anything like XI's, this would be exploited to no end.
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#59 Jul 20 2010 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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Myabe this should have been asked along time ago.

IS there EXP or levels to lose in FFXIV?

Not going to lose skill ups, I'd guess.

Completely forgot about this. I guess there won't be Level Down after all.

*Ponder*
#60 Jul 20 2010 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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Threx wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
With the option switched off, you do not get any XP/skills at all, but you do not suffer any death penalty.


Granted, it would be a great feature for people who want to explore. But if XIV's endgame is anything like XI's, this would be exploited to no end.


I worded it the way I did with people using it for endgame events in mind. You're -going- to die, a lot, and you're not going to be getting any XP anyway.

One of the bigger grievances in FFXI endgame was people who would pretend to be AFK when R1 came around, or would "accidentally" click cancel or would just flat out get ****** about anything under R2/R3, whether you were in a pinch or not. If there's no time crunch, then sure, R3s all around. But if you wipe in Nyzul/Dynamis/Salvage or somewhere similar where a time limit is in effect, take whatever raise you're given.

Especially in a situation where the death penalty is XP loss, I have always felt that level down from level cap is a horrible design. You're making someone who is "done XPing" (because they've hit level cap) -have- to XP more, lest they lose the ability to equip half (or possibly all) of their gear. Then, they have to go lfp half naked to get their level back.

So yeah, the whole "people at level cap not having a death penalty" thing was intentional, assuming it's XP loss. Death penalty should be in effect while leveling though, IMO.
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#61 Jul 20 2010 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I have to say that I liked the whole exp loss if you were ko'd in 11. It kept you on your toes during a tough fight or event. Of course there were times I would delvl from a dynamis gone bad or something and yea it was very annoying to go to a campaign or besieged half naked to get my lvl back. But that as the price for keeping my character up to par on lvls. I think if there was no exp loss or some type of penalty that players were actually afraid of then there would be no drive behind a intense battle. Just my opinion.
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#62 Jul 20 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
I like the whole notion of switching off EXP. EQ2 did it and it was a cool way to let your friends catch up to you if you wanted. Of course, you still went into EXP debt if you died...
#63 Jul 20 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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i plan on never dieing in ffxiv.
/Runaway! which will follow by a train of goblins ^_^
#64 Jul 20 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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RSquires wrote:
I have to say that I liked the whole exp loss if you were ko'd in 11. It kept you on your toes during a tough fight or event. Of course there were times I would delvl from a dynamis gone bad or something and yea it was very annoying to go to a campaign or besieged half naked to get my lvl back. But that as the price for keeping my character up to par on lvls. I think if there was no exp loss or some type of penalty that players were actually afraid of then there would be no drive behind a intense battle. Just my opinion.


Indeed, I agree with this. No doubt there should be some drawback to dying. And that's one of those cases where the things i hated the most about XI were sometimes things I loved about it. I rather enjoyed those suicide missions of going solo into areas I shouldn't be, trying to sneak & invis my way through for a silly quest knowing if I die I'll de-level to 74. Made it dangerous and entertaining for me..."Hmm, wiki says you should have atleast a trio for this mission fight, but no one wants to help...I'm trying it solo as mnk/dnc anyway!"

I guess that'll be a cool thing about the 1st few months of 14...people willing to experiment and find stuff out for themselves instead of relying on wiki and saying things like "Oh I'm not doing that fight unless you have this exact party setup"
#65 Jul 20 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess what it comes down to for me, is that whatever tiny thrill I got from the fear of death in XI in no way offset all of the fun I could have had if players weren't afraid to actually try stuff. There's so much content in XI that would be fun to just PLAY without any regard for drops or xp, but if there's really nothing to gain and all you can do is lose, why would anyone want to do something for ***** and giggles? It just makes it so much harder to assemble a group to do things for fun when people, understandably, have a goal to make progress and cap out their character... and all of the fun stuff works against that goal.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#66 Sep 24 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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the real deterrence to death is time lost. people will be angry enough with that loss. It's a game ... it's not even defined as death .. it's KO'd. You want to die, delete your character .. that's the new death in FFXIV
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