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Heads up all ye testers!Follow

#52 Jul 16 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
I can't really explain to much about why I opened this thread, I guess because of the trouble some people have been having, they thought using another means was justified. I just wanted to let people know... that it isn't.
Once again, I'm pretty sure if SE themselves give you the means and the instructions on how to use said means that they're actaully ok with it. This wasn't something players thought up, it came with the package. Maybe said admin had a communication error?
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#53 Jul 16 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mase wrote:
Pickins wrote:
Exactly.

The testers' job isn't just to test the things they want to test, they're supposed to be testing the entire system.


The problem was noticed, reported using the appropriate protocol, and then circumvented. Having the testers stuck with the problem they can't otherwise fix themselves benefits nobody.


The whole point of a P2P system is to have a large number of users. Every person that circumvents the system is one less peer on the network, which means less meaningful data for the development team.

I understand that you're anxious to play the game, but you did sign on to test their system, and that means following the procedures that the test designers have laid out for you. Believe me, it's hard enough to design thorough testing for software systems without testers changing the protocol to suit their purposes.
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#54 Jul 16 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Once again, I'm pretty sure if SE themselves give you the means and the instructions on how to use said means that they're actaully ok with it. This wasn't something players thought up, it came with the package. Maybe said admin had a communication error?


Who knows. They don't really talk a whole lot, but SE are famous for that.
#55 Jul 16 2010 at 8:45 PM Rating: Default
Mase wrote:
Tenfooterten wrote:
The only thing to fix here, is they should have let people know ahead of time that this would be P2P (Peer to Peer).
If everyone that got invited all downloaded this client at the same time from the official source, everyone would have gotten good speeds. As long as everyone had the proper ports open. Also, it is highly associated with your ISP. If you're on Dial up, you're not going to get good speeds. Your dl speed is capped at your highest internet speed.


So, essentially, what you're suggesting is that SE should expect its entire clientele to be able to log on at the same time and download their update, when SE mandates it so? I think you're so far up SE's *** that you can't seem to reason well.

As I have stated, I, and many many others, followed SE's tips and suggestions for quick download speeds and were still stuck with download times in the spans of days.

Quote:
Edit: Also, this is something like a 12 gig DL. It's not like grabbing a 5MB song from I-tunes.


Well using a third party program as opposed to the alpha client sure made it feel like it was.


Are you young? Have you graduated Highschool yet? Here is a better question, have you ever tried to download an update from SE for FFXI? If you did, you got really slow download speeds. You may have been cut off, and had to start over again. Do you know why? BECAUSE EVERYONE WAS TRYING TO DOWNLOAD AT THE SAME TIME.
I don't like to call posters names, but you sir are a freaking idiot.

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So, essentially, what you're suggesting is that SE should expect its entire clientele to be able to log on at the same time and download their update, when SE mandates it so?


Yes. That's how it always happens.

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As I have stated, I, and many many others, followed SE's tips and suggestions for quick download speeds and were still stuck with download times in the spans of days.


Read any one of the multiple posts i made on this subject... that you obviously haven't read.
#56 Jul 17 2010 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Pickins wrote:
The whole point of a P2P system is to have a large number of users. Every person that circumvents the system is one less peer on the network, which means less meaningful data for the development team.


I understand what PEER-to-PEER means. Both uTorrent, and SE's client are P2P. However, there is a reason why so many testers deferred to using one over the other: the latter (SE's client) sucked. It's not as if the testers were thinking to themselves, "well, I think I'll just arbitrarily choose to use a third party program for no reason." They did it because SE's client had intrinsic problems that many testers could not overcome with port forwarding or other methods. Initially, I imagine, most testers began as I did with SE's client, but after realizing how slow it was they migrated to a different program.

Clearly, SE's client is inferior if a third party program such as uTorrent can download the same file at a fraction of the time with the same amount of seeds. Again, the problem was reported, and after that, it's in the developers hands to fix. Us suffering with it helps nobody.

Tenfooterten wrote:
Are you young? Have you graduated Highschool yet?


I have. Have you? Probably not, otherwise you'd know high school is two words and doesn't need to be capitalized. At any rate, I don't see how my education, or your lack thereof is relevant.

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Here is a better question, have you ever tried to download an update from SE for FFXI? If you did, you got really slow download speeds. You may have been cut off, and had to start over again. Do you know why? BECAUSE EVERYONE WAS TRYING TO DOWNLOAD AT THE SAME TIME.
I don't like to call posters names, but you sir are a freaking idiot.


I have no idea what your point is here. Are you saying SE always sucks with distributing patches? That's good to know, all the more reason to seek a third party if need be. But to answer your question, yes I have suffered through every SE update between the NA PS2 release, and the second WotG update.

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Read any one of the multiple posts i made on this subject... that you obviously haven't read.


I don't know how important you consider yourself, but I don't go seeking out your name on the forum to read all of your posts, which I'm sure are all as great as the one I'm quoting.
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#57 Jul 17 2010 at 3:00 AM Rating: Good
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Mase wrote:
Pickins wrote:
The whole point of a P2P system is to have a large number of users. Every person that circumvents the system is one less peer on the network, which means less meaningful data for the development team.


I understand what PEER-to-PEER means. Both uTorrent, and SE's client are P2P. However, there is a reason why so many testers deferred to using one over the other: the latter (SE's client) sucked. It's not as if the testers were thinking to themselves, "well, I think I'll just arbitrarily choose to use a third party program for no reason." They did it because SE's client had intrinsic problems that many testers could not overcome with port forwarding or other methods. Initially, I imagine, most testers began as I did with SE's client, but after realizing how slow it was they migrated to a different program.

Clearly, SE's client is inferior if a third party program such as uTorrent can download the same file at a fraction of the time with the same amount of seeds. Again, the problem was reported, and after that, it's in the developers hands to fix. Us suffering with it helps nobody.


Again, it's a beta. Problems are expected. If you were expecting things to work smoothly, then I can only assume you are not familiar with the concept of what a beta version is.

And also again, if SE's client is not working correctly, then they do need to fix it. If no one uses their peer to peer downloader, that does not help them fix it, it makes it HARDER for them to fix it.

So what you're saying is, you had a problem, and so you made it WORSE for everyone else because you couldn't be bothered to do it the correct way.

I find it ironic that considering you call me a sycophant twice for expecting you to do your job, you come out and admit that you understand how a P2P client is supposed to work, and intentionally made it work even worse than it already did.

So not only are you not helping to make the beta improve, you're actually making it HARDER for them to fix the problems because you can't be ***** to follow the procedures you're supposed to.

With "beta testers" like this guy, why have a beta anyway?

EDIT: Just thought I'd toss in a personal jab: for someone calling me a sycophant, I think the quote in your sig suits you pretty well.

Edited, Jul 17th 2010 5:02am by Mikhalia
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#58 Jul 17 2010 at 3:27 AM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia wrote:
Again, it's a beta. Problems are expected. If you were expecting things to work smoothly, then I can only assume you are not familiar with the concept of what a beta version is.


I never expected a flawless game out of the beta, and I don't see why you interjected with this non-sequitur. It's not as if I'm complaining that a problem existed, all I am saying is that a problem came up, it was reported -- meaning the extent of my capabilities in solving that problem were exhausted -- and I moved on with the testing.

Quote:
And also again, if SE's client is not working correctly, then they do need to fix it. If no one uses their peer to peer downloader, that does not help them fix it, it makes it HARDER for them to fix it.

So what you're saying is, you had a problem, and so you made it WORSE for everyone else because you couldn't be bothered to do it the correct way.


I don't know what to say, maybe everyone else still stuck with the downloader should have moved on too a third party one as well? I don't see how a large majority of the testing population being stuck at simply downloading the game benefits the development team. Once the problem is reported, the ball is in their court and there's nothing left for us to do. It benefits them more if we can progress to the next phase and continue to test other features of the game.

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I find it ironic that considering you call me a sycophant twice for expecting you to do your job, you come out and admit that you understand how a P2P client is supposed to work, and intentionally made it work even worse than it already did.


I find it funny that you don't understand what irony or sycophancy is.

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So not only are you not helping to make the beta improve, you're actually making it HARDER for them to fix the problems because you can't be ***** to follow the procedures you're supposed to.

With "beta testers" like this guy, why have a beta anyway?

EDIT: Just thought I'd toss in a personal jab: for someone calling me a sycophant, I think the quote in your sig suits you pretty well.


Well as I've already laid out, I'm actually not making anything any harder for anybody else. That being said, when I used uTorrent to circumvent their downloader, SE had never stated that that was against the rules. Further, as I mentioned above, I've only used a third party P2P during the alpha phase, their beta client was much smoother for me.

Finally, I still think you're not understanding the definition of sycophant.
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#59 Jul 17 2010 at 3:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mase wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
Again, it's a beta. Problems are expected. If you were expecting things to work smoothly, then I can only assume you are not familiar with the concept of what a beta version is.


I never expected a flawless game out of the beta, and I don't see why you interjected with this non-sequitur. It's not as if I'm complaining that a problem existed, all I am saying is that a problem came up, it was reported -- meaning the extent of my capabilities in solving that problem were exhausted -- and I moved on with the testing.


No, your capabilities in testing involve waiting for the problem to be fixed, and they trying it again to see if it is fixed.

Mase wrote:
Quote:
And also again, if SE's client is not working correctly, then they do need to fix it. If no one uses their peer to peer downloader, that does not help them fix it, it makes it HARDER for them to fix it.

So what you're saying is, you had a problem, and so you made it WORSE for everyone else because you couldn't be bothered to do it the correct way.


I don't know what to say, maybe everyone else still stuck with the downloader should have moved on too a third party one as well? I don't see how a large majority of the testing population being stuck at simply downloading the game benefits the development team. Once the problem is reported, the ball is in their court and there's nothing left for us to do. It benefits them more if we can progress to the next phase and continue to test other features of the game.

[...]

Well as I've already laid out, I'm actually not making anything any harder for anybody else. That being said, when I used uTorrent to circumvent their downloader, SE had never stated that that was against the rules. Further, as I mentioned above, I've only used a third party P2P during the alpha phase, their beta client was much smoother for me.


Maybe you DON'T understand how peer to peer works after all. You said you did, I assumed you did; sorry. Let me explain it for you:

Peer to peer works better if more people are using it and worse if less people are using it. Peer to peer downloaders work by you downloading portions of the file from other people who already have it, and are running the same program at the same time as you. If your suggestion is that no one uses it, that makes it worse, because the fewer people using it, the worse it performs. By your workaround of NOT using SE's downloader, you're not only not helping them to figure out if they have fixed their problems, you are making their problems worse, because anyone using a third party downloader is NOT using the official one, and therefore there are less seeds, which leads to slower speeds, which was the very thing you complained about initially.

For future reference, here's how a beta works:

First, you report the problem.
Second, they fix the problem and tell you to try it again.
Third, you try it again and let them know if the problem is fixed.

If you use a workaround that negates the problem, you make it impossible to tell them if the problem is fixed or not, because you can't try it again. And since the problem is peer to peer based, you're making the problem WORSE by taking yourself out of the equation as a seed. By suggesting others remove themselves as seeds, the problem grows even larger.

Get it?

You complained that it was slow, and your solution was to use a workaround that makes it slower for everyone else. That's like saying it takes too long to stand in line for a ride, so you decide to cut to the head of the line. That's not a solution, that's being selfish and impatient.

I'm not even going to play the semantics/dictionary game with you. I was about to, but it's a waste of time.
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#60 Jul 17 2010 at 4:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
Maybe you DON'T understand how peer to peer works after all. You said you did, I assumed you did; sorry. Let me explain it for you:

Peer to peer works better if more people are using it and worse if less people are using it. Peer to peer downloaders work by you downloading portions of the file from other people who already have it, and are running the same program at the same time as you. If your suggestion is that no one uses it, that makes it worse, because the fewer people using it, the worse it performs. By your workaround of NOT using SE's downloader, you're not only not helping them to figure out if they have fixed their problems, you are making their problems worse, because anyone using a third party downloader is NOT using the official one, and therefore there are less seeds, which leads to slower speeds, which was the very thing you complained about initially.


Perhaps you didn't hear me up on that self-righteous pedestal, but as I stated earlier, even initially before people had switched to third party P2Ps and the pool of seeds had dried up, the download speed was still absurdly low for a portion of the testers. It's not as if I and other testers capriciously decided to switch to uTorrent and thus caused the problems plaguing SE's client.

Quote:
Third, you try it again and let them know if the problem is fixed.


Your first valid point. However, client updates were frequent at that stage, so retesting the bug is not an issue.

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By suggesting others remove themselves as seeds, the problem grows even larger.


Or perhaps SE should simply allow us to use whatever methods work best (this applies for retail as well). SE has an irrational fear of 3rd party programs. If SE continues to use P2P to disseminate their updates with the retail version of the game, and a third party P2P happens to work better than SE's, I will gladly use it.

Quote:
You complained that it was slow, and your solution was to use a workaround that makes it slower for everyone else. That's like saying it takes too long to stand in line for a ride, so you decide to cut to the head of the line. That's not a solution, that's being selfish and impatient.


No, that's like saying it takes too long to stand in line for a ride, so I take a route that everyone has access to, to get to the head of the line and ride the coaster (along with everyone else willing to take this route, there is no exclusivity). Everyone was capable of taking that route.

Quote:
I'm not even going to play the semantics/dictionary game with you. I was about to, but it's a waste of time.


For you, it would not be a waste of time to pick up a dictionary.
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#61 Jul 17 2010 at 4:24 AM Rating: Good
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Mase wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
Maybe you DON'T understand how peer to peer works after all. You said you did, I assumed you did; sorry. Let me explain it for you:

Peer to peer works better if more people are using it and worse if less people are using it. Peer to peer downloaders work by you downloading portions of the file from other people who already have it, and are running the same program at the same time as you. If your suggestion is that no one uses it, that makes it worse, because the fewer people using it, the worse it performs. By your workaround of NOT using SE's downloader, you're not only not helping them to figure out if they have fixed their problems, you are making their problems worse, because anyone using a third party downloader is NOT using the official one, and therefore there are less seeds, which leads to slower speeds, which was the very thing you complained about initially.


Perhaps you didn't hear me up on that self-righteous pedestal, but as I stated earlier, even initially before people had switched to third party P2Ps and the pool of seeds had dried up, the download speed was still absurdly low for a portion of the testers. It's not as if I and other testers capriciously decided to switch to uTorrent and thus caused the problems plaguing SE's client.


I never said you caused them. I said they were there, and then your "solution" made them worse.

Mase wrote:
Quote:
By suggesting others remove themselves as seeds, the problem grows even larger.


Or perhaps SE should simply allow us to use whatever methods work best (this applies for retail as well). SE has an irrational fear of 3rd party programs. If SE continues to use P2P to disseminate their updates with the retail version of the game, and a third party P2P happens to work better than SE's, I will gladly use it.


And if this were post retail release and a third party option worked better then I'd say your solution was a valid one. The problem is, it's not a retail release. It's a beta. You have to work within the confines of the system or the system can't get better.

Mase wrote:
Quote:
You complained that it was slow, and your solution was to use a workaround that makes it slower for everyone else. That's like saying it takes too long to stand in line for a ride, so you decide to cut to the head of the line. That's not a solution, that's being selfish and impatient.


No, that's like saying it takes too long to stand in line for a ride, so I take a route that everyone has access to, to get to the head of the line and ride the coaster (along with everyone else willing to take this route, there is no exclusivity). Everyone was capable of taking that route.


Except that by taking this route, the people who own the amusement park can't fix the problems that are causing the initial line to be slow, and by going in front of them, you're making them go even slower.

Mase wrote:
Quote:
I'm not even going to play the semantics/dictionary game with you. I was about to, but it's a waste of time.


For you, it would not be a waste of time to pick up a dictionary.


I was going to throw an ad hominem attack back at you, but I have to admit that was rather clever.
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#62 Jul 17 2010 at 4:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
Except that by taking this route, the people who own the amusement park can't fix the problems that are causing the initial line to be slow, and by going in front of them, you're making them go even slower.


In my perfect amusement park analogy, there wouldn't be a need to make faster lines if everyone had access to a seat on the ride from the get-go. Our analogy is becoming a bit abstract though, but I hope you understand what I mean.

Look, Mikhalia, I don't mean any ill-will, I don't even know why I'm arguing. As I mentioned, I only used a third party P2P during the alpha phase, and even then I only used it once for the first major update. In my experience, whatever issues were present in the initial downloader have been fixed. Though this is not the case for many people.
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#63 Jul 17 2010 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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Mase wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:
Except that by taking this route, the people who own the amusement park can't fix the problems that are causing the initial line to be slow, and by going in front of them, you're making them go even slower.


In my perfect amusement park analogy, there wouldn't be a need to make faster lines if everyone had access to a seat on the ride from the get-go. Our analogy is becoming a bit abstract though, but I hope you understand what I mean.


This is what happens when analogies get out of control.

Mase wrote:
Look, Mikhalia, I don't mean any ill-will, I don't even know why I'm arguing. As I mentioned, I only used a third party P2P during the alpha phase, and even then I only used it once for the first major update. In my experience, whatever issues were present in the initial downloader have been fixed. Though this is not the case for many people.


We're arguing because I said that anyone who went around the instructions and got banned deserved it, and you said I was whiny, self-righteous, and sycophantic. And then it went from there.

At any rate, no ill will on my end. The point I've been trying to make from the beginning is that I, as someone who did not get accepted (and that sucks, but I'll live), am hoping that the people who -did- get accepted will follow the proper procedures to report and fix things while in the beta, because this is the point where the problems need to be ironed out. At the risk of using my amusement park analogy again, if there's a problem with the lines, I want the park owners to know about it and I want the park beta testers to help them fix it, so that when I pay my admission fee to get into the park, everything works more or less acceptably. If all the beta testers just get out of line, the park owners will not be able to figure out exactly what is wrong or know if it has been fixed properly for everyone. That means that I pay my admission fee, and now -I- have to either find a workaround for the line or wait forever.

I'm well aware that there are people (and I'm not saying you specifically, because you haven't necessarily given me reason to have this impression of you, I'm just saying "people" in general) who only signed up for the beta to play the game early, and have no interest in actually TESTING or HELPING with anything; they complain about every little thing that's broken when they were selected with the express reasoning that **** -will- be broken and it's their job to find the broken **** so the paying customers don't have to.

And that's what grinds my gears. My animosity is directed towards the people who are wasting time on the beta servers when they could be replaced with someone who would actually do what they're supposed to. Again, I'm not trying to be selfish here; I'd like to get in but that's not important, just so long as the people who are testing the game are actually testing it, that's what I care about.

Again, no ill will towards you as an individual.
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#64 Jul 17 2010 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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My animosity is directed towards the people who are wasting time on the beta servers when they could be replaced with someone who would actually do what they're supposed to. Again, I'm not trying to be selfish here; I'd like to get in but that's not important, just so long as the people who are testing the game are actually testing it, that's what I care about.


So will SE have an open beta or just the closed beta? I know where you're coming from and I agree with you.
#65 Jul 17 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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SE stated that they aren't sure yet if there will be an open beta. If there is one, it will be held a couple of weeks before the game goes retail.
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#66 Jul 17 2010 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
Mik wrote:
And also again, if SE's client is not working correctly, then they do need to fix it. If no one uses their peer to peer downloader, that does not help them fix it, it makes it HARDER for them to fix it.
Getting 30,000 reports of "this doesn't work" and then nothing else is better than getting 30,000 reports of "this doesn't work" AND thousands of reports of bugs in the actual game? Give me a break. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge it, "this doesn't work well enough for people to use it over other means provided" is a perfectly acceptable result of a test. Having people sit at 0DL 0UL for days isn't helping anyone.
Mik wrote:
you are making their problems worse, because anyone using a third party downloader is NOT using the official one, and therefore there are less seeds,
Once again, I don't want to go into it too much, but you very obviously don't understand how their version was working.
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#67 Jul 17 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
I'm about to turn into a total curmudgeon here, but when I grew up, we had DOS. I didn't get my first GUI based system for NINE YEARS (1986-1995) after my first computer.

For @#%^'s sake, I remember when simply USING a computer required a certain degree of technical savvy. There was no mouse, there were no icons, you navigated by typing in cd and then the name of the directory you wanted to navigate to, and you launched a program by typing program.exe or whatever it was called.

Is it a good thing that computers have become significantly more user friendly? Yes, it is. It makes a great tool far more accessible to many people. Because computers are accessible to EVERYONE, everyone has a computer. This is also a good thing.

Where it STOPS being a good thing is when people who own computers know absolutely nothing about simple crap.


User: "My new car won't turn on"
Clerk: "What are you doing to try to get it to run?"
User: "I keep pressing this button and nothing is happening!"
Clerk: "Are you putting the key in the ignition?"
User: "Key? Ignition? What's that?"
Clerk: "Your key is that piece of metal we gave you when you bought the car. You want to put it into the ignition on the side of the steering column, under the wheel"
User: "Which wheel? There are four of them! This is so confusing"
Clerk: "No sir, the steering wheel; it's in the vehicle, on the driver's side, in front of the seat."
User: "Ignition... driver's side seat... steering column... why do you people have to use all this technical jargon and make this so hard?!?!?!"

User: "I've been using your key in your ignition and it worked, but now it stopped working! It won't run anymore!"
Clerk: "Do you have any gas in your gas tank?"
User: "I don't know how to put gas in a car! Why didn't you tell me I would have to put gas in it? I demand you replace my car with one that has gas!"

User: "Okay, so I tried your stupid ignition and I even put gas in your stupid car but my car still won't work!"
Clerk: "What happened when it stopped working?"
User: "Well it was going too slow and I wanted it faster!"
Clerk: "Okay, and then what happened?"
User: "Well it crashed. It doesn't work anymore. Can you come fix it? I just want my car to WORK and I want it to be FAST and I don't understand why you people have to make this difficult! I'm not a car person! I shouldn't have to deal with this sh*t!"

I mean yeah, I get that you buy something and you expect it to work. That's a given. What blows my mind is that when something doesn't work, people freak the **** out over the tiniest things, and when given clear, concise directions on how to fix it, they get all indignant; how DARE they be expected to know something about a product they spent several hundred dollars for?


I almost never quote long *** posts in forums. But this is so **** spot i had to. Especially the first part which made me realize im getting old as **** lol
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