Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

NA players as seen from JapanFollow

#1 Jul 18 2010 at 11:50 PM Rating: Excellent
23 posts
I could read many posts about if it is good or bad to have japanese and american players playing on the same servers, about the difficulties in communication between the “two sides”, about some morons that some people met while playing FFXI, about the “JP ONLY” comments... and many different reactions from the community. They are all interesting things to read, I think.

I couldn't find though, a thread about the opposite perspective: how NA players are seen from outside USA and in particular from Japan (on the other side, there seem to be not too many discussions about NA-EU players). So I'd like to begin this thread inviting all of the players from outside USA to write their opinions too!

Premise 1: I have been living in Japan for many years, I am married with a japanese girl and played FFXI with japanese software with many different parties and linkshells, but I am not japanese (I am italian). So sorry for the mistakes in english.

Premise 2: I love the differences between cultures. The key for a succesful international communication is not to say that we are all the same, but to recognize the differences and say that they are a good thing.

Premise 3: Morons are a plague that exist in any country and throughout all the human history. I believe it would be a good thing to leave outside of the discussion some episodes we all had with stupid people.

There are many things I'd like to say, I'll try with a list in no particular order. To explain how a NA player is seen from Japan, I need to introduce you some JP cultural aspects:

JP and NA players are not the same. Some wrote that only the language is different but if we could read japanese then we'll discover that we are all identical. It's false.

You can find people online who speaks japanese who is not actually japanese (me, for example). So don't be 100% sure about the nationality of the people you play with just because you see a certain language.

I don't know if JP parties or NA parties are better players. I can tell you that LS work very efficently with JP players though. I mean that they are very punctual and meet very regularly.

I enjoy very much playing both with NA and JP players, almost always. No problem to communicate. But I can say that in many occasions with mixed parties some players on both sides didn't seem satisfied. Of course this is only a general thing!

I know maaany JP players that enjoy a lot playing with westerns, but a big percentage doesn't.
I believe that many JP players avoid to play with WESTERNS (not only NA players) for one or more of the following reasons:
a) many fear to be rejected
b) many are not used to communicate with non japanese people
c) many fear how they will be “judged” by westerns
d) many can understand english but that's not enough: we, westerns, use a different approach to communicate.

So, for all of those who wrote that the comment “JP only” is a form of racism, I want you to know that things are different. Usually NA people are not avoided for racism. In Japanese culture, when inside a group things don't go well and someone is isolated or rejected, things get difficult. To avoid troubles, one just avoids people and situations he is not used to deal with.

Again: language is not the only problem. There are other factors, for example NA players are typically more aggressive when communicate (we EU players too). Bad words, straight approach, say what you think without constrictions... This are things obvious for westerns but not for (the majority of) japanese people.

Western people are often openly hostile and don't hide it. I find it a bad habit, but that's my personal point of view. When JP players are hostiles to you, they just cut any relationship with you and don't discuss about it. You never see people fighting here, they hate it.

So, entering the core of the topic, I believe that NA players are seen from JP players as a community difficult to deal with. That doesn't mean to judge badly NA players, just to acknowledge that it's not so obvious to build up relations between different cultures and ways of doing.

Many seem surprised and offended because JP players avoid NA parties, but did you ever think about the fact that, for example, no JP player would ever shout hostile things to another one while playing? I am western, and I don't care about this things, but from Japan this is perceived as a “avoid at any costs” situation. (generally speaking of course)

Another thing. Many times I see comments by NA players saying “don't worry, he is JP and doesn't understand english”. Well, you would be surprised to know that almost always they understand what we write in english very well. It's the western player who cannot usually understand how they comment what you write...! Believe me, I saw it many times. This kind of comment lowers esponentially the opinion that any non english speaker (included me) has about who writes it.

Since I wrote different things that could seem “critics” to the NA approach, I'd like to add a good point about NA players: you can become friends easily than with a JP player. This doesn't happen only in MMO, but in everyday life too. Also very difficult topic that I cannot talk about here: the concept of “friendship” in Japan is different than from Europe and America I think.

The best relationships are always when the player is open minded and has made some studies about the culture he is confronting with. If the player shows respect and openness to the other players and cultures, things get very good and to play together is one of the best experiences you can have.

Hmmmm reading again this post I just wrote, I find it a little confusing. Sorry, I have many things I want to say but it's difficult to put them in words. The thing that I would ultimately point out is that when we play online, we all have a tendency to interpret wrongly what is happening on the “other side”. When we do this kind of error, we usually put our cultural fears into shape and feel offended by our own prejudice of ourselfs. This happens for every player in the world.

See you in september on some japanese server! ^^
#2 Jul 19 2010 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
I have to say, I was very skeptical clicking on this thread and had that little red arrow ready to go. I was wrong. Very well written.

As someone who's played XI since it's NA release and who always tries to see both ends of a perspective, I have come to learn all these things you've written about in your thread here. I'm a pretty open minded person and I never really wanted to believe the "hype" about how all JP players are racist and hate NA folks etc etc. Some people just can't grasp the concept that what might be basic cultural norms to us are not the norm in Japan or other places.

Honestly, something like this should be stickied so that people going into XIV not having come from XI or having played any other Asian based MMO can at least be made aware that things aren't going to be like hopping into WoW or EQ2 or LOTRO.

Well done, rate up.
#3 Jul 19 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,080 posts
Quote:
Honestly, something like this should be stickied so that people going into XIV not having come from XI or having played any other Asian based MMO can at least be made aware that things aren't going to be like hopping into WoW or EQ2 or LOTRO.


Agreed, but tbh, a lot of the people going into XIV from XI will also still benefit from this.
____________________________
A reader lives a thousand lives, the man who never reads lives only one. - George R.R. Martin
#4 Jul 19 2010 at 12:21 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,218 posts
Awhile back there was a very interesting discussion, I think over at JPbutton, where NA and JP players would ask questions of the other group "Why do you do X, do you really dislike Y?" etc. It was very illuminating in some ways and in other ways just served to demonstrate the cultural (not just language) difference between the two groups.

One very telling difference between the two cultures is the reaction to being inspected. JP players, for whatever reason, treat it as if they are being violated/insulted, and NA players typically take it either as a minor annoyance or in a lot of cases, as a compliment (you wouldn't be inspecting me if I didn't have some gear that was rare or cool to you). Mere language difference do not explain such a widespread and drastic difference in outlook for an action which has no meaningful communicative value.

I spent two years living in Okinawa, and while Okinawans do not necessarily consider themselves to be Japanese, the language is Japanese and the culture is more Japanese than anything. I found it amazing to see just how unconsciously and consciously conformist Japanese are, and how that translates both into greater politeness and much greater sensitivity to "impolite" behavior. For example, 90% of the local population drove white cars. It's incredibly noticeable from the moment you're on the ground that all the cars are white, and those who drive non white cars are expressing a desire to stand out. Imagine if James Dean in "Rebel Without a Cause" drove a green honda civic in order to show his bad boy nature.

As well, when it comes to verbal or social situations, I had a number of Okinawan girlfriends, and it was amazing to me how often they complained about being slighted by their female peers in very subtle ways that Americans would never notice or care about. "So and so didn't say that she liked my new haircut/shoes/whatever. What did I ever do to her?" was the sort of thing that came up more than once as a semi serious social issue. When no one says any thing overtly mean or confrontational, ever, all of the cruelty (real or imagined) manifests itself in subtle or seemingly imaginary ways. Strangely this attitude did not carry over to me or to other Americans. While many of the locals didn't care for the "rudeness" of Americans, it was generally seen as a pervasive trait, and not some thing to actually be offended by (it's nothing personal, they're all just jerks).

For my part I found JP and Okinawans to be overly timid and deferential. Not a terrible trait in the women, if you want a more "traditional" wife, but difficult to get used to, especially in men. Walking into a room and knowing (via my gf) that most of the men there would talk about me behind my back, but having all of them smile and cast their eyes down without ever saying a negative word was kind of creepy.



Edited, Jul 19th 2010 11:53am by KarlHungis
#5 Jul 19 2010 at 12:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I spent two years living in Okinawa, and while Okinawans do not necessarily consider themselves to be Japanese


Not to derail the topic, but why is this?
#6 Jul 19 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Quote:
I spent two years living in Okinawa, and while Okinawans do not necessarily consider themselves to be Japanese


Not to derail the topic, but why is this?


I'm not really sure why. It's just some thing that was mentioned to me enough that I stopped referring to Okinawans as "Japanese" in front of Okinawans to prevent being gently reminded.

To my western eyes, they spoke the same language, ate the same food, embraced the same pop culture, are a territory of Japan, etc, but for whatever reason they didn't like being referrred to as Japanese. I guess they just like to think of themselves as special and different, living on an island separated from the main islands.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 2:30am by KarlHungis
#7 Jul 19 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
Do JP consider every english speaking person automatically NA or do they know there are more different kinds of people out there?

Is it a general JP way of life that when there is a problem, to avoid it by sticking one's head in the sand?
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#8 Jul 19 2010 at 12:35 AM Rating: Excellent
RedGalka wrote:
Do JP consider every english speaking person automatically NA or do they know there are more different kinds of people out there?



Hehe, I'm fairly sure that the Japanese are aware of the existence of Canada, England, and other countries where English is the main national language. Smiley: tongue
#9 Jul 19 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Good
**
362 posts
Wow, a really solid post, desertbynight. With more threads like this, more people will gain a better understanding of the differences between how NA/EU players like to play and how the JP players like to play. Language isn't the only barrier. When in doubt while partying with JP players, showing respect and being polite goes a looong way with them (even if you prove to be the weakest link of the group).

Quote:
Do JP consider every english speaking person automatically NA or do they know there are more different kinds of people out there?

Not at all; they know it's not just NAs. They tend to look at it like NA = anything non-JP (although that's not completely accurate). As was said previously, the "JP ONLY" message came about as much to keep NA/EU jerks away as it was a way for the JP players to avoid the awkward situations of dealing with most NA/EU players.

While playing FFXI, my Japanese was pretty basic, but I almost always disregarded the "JP ONLY" message. If I wanted an invitation, I would send off a politely phrased message in Japanese giving the needed info and explaining my limited ability in Japanese. Sometimes I was invited, sometimes not, but even if they didn't want to invite me, they were always polite in return. There were quite a few times when I would not get the invitation that I would later be asked to fill in for someone who had to leave or when they reformed. Show respect and be polite, and it never hurts to try with the Japanese. While NA/EU players look for that too, the Japanese really remember those things because they don't expect it from NA/EU players.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 1:54am by WooShoo
____________________________
"Unfortunately many game companies are learning that if they can just keep you busy, you might not realize how bored you are." - Kachi
"Pride in your character will amount to nothing more than the level of intimacy I have when I order a burger from McDonald's" - Warfox07
"I find comfort food always helps when I feel like killing myself." - Papashan (FFXIV)
#10 Jul 19 2010 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
*
126 posts
From my 5 yrs of travel in FFXI, I learned ******** come in all colors. There were just as many JP who would stop to give a raise, wave, and run off as there were NA who would just plain run by.

It would be nice if 14 didn't have the stereotypes of 11...though I wonder to think how the JP will react to some of the WoW community who will make an appearance.
____________________________
Carbuncle
75 Pld/Bst
#11 Jul 19 2010 at 12:48 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
Avatar
**
676 posts
I played FFXI for only maybe 4 or 5 months after NA release before the exp loss death penalty became too much to deal with, so I never really had much of a chance to play with many of the Japanese players. I had always heard about how someone got to play in a Japanese group the night previously and they were getting really good exp/hour and that it went so well and efficiently, that they were very impressed. I did end up coming back a year and a half later and played for a couple more months and I had been invited into 1 Japanese party. For that occasion, language was definitely the main problem that we faced. Maybe I was just tired, but the auto translate function wasn't helping much. I know it would have been a good party to be in if only I could tell what it was that they wanted me to do. They were trying to tell me the order of a skill chain they wanted to perform, but I just never really comprehended which chain it was that they wanted. Needless to say, I screwed it up several times and I never really did get it to work. They were all very polite and every once in awhile I would see one of the others type something in Japanese. Overall, I just ended up feeling pretty stupid because they tried their best to help me understand, but to no avail.

desertbynight, do you happen to know the URL for that forum where they asked each other questions? It sounds like something I'd like to read. In my experience, I never heard anybody say anything bad about the Japanese players. If they were mentioned, it was always something positive.
____________________________
#12 Jul 19 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,801 posts
Eh, the whole cultural thing is a double edged sword. BOTH groups should learn to be a bit more accepting of the other group.
____________________________
WoW -- Zaia -- Dragonmaw -- Mage 80 BABY! Alchemy 450
Also... Hunter 62, Rogue 52, Warrior 66, Warlock 43, Death Knight 70, Shaman Who Cares? ;)

FFXI -- Caia -- Retired/Deleted -- Blm 75, Alchemy 97
Pandimonium server - Rank 10 - Bastok

Zaela Rdm -- 35, Alchemy 45 -- Forced into retirement because I didn't have the right kind of credit card. Hope it was worth 18 bucks a month, SE.

#13 Jul 19 2010 at 12:57 AM Rating: Excellent
Caia wrote:
Eh, the whole cultural thing is a double edged sword. BOTH groups should learn to be a bit more accepting of the other group.


Definitely. But isn't being respectful and polite pretty much a universal way of building better bonds? It's not asking much. At least, not of most people. No, that's not directed at you lol. Just saying.
#14 Jul 19 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
169 posts
Very interesting read! I'm going to be an exchange student to Japan in one year after I graduate from High School, and I've been slowly learning all about Japanese culture and language. I hope I can use all this to my advantage to make some new friends. :]
#15 Jul 19 2010 at 1:04 AM Rating: Good
*
108 posts
One thing I've noticed about Japanese players that's been touched on briefly in this thread is that they just don't want to talk about things that upset or offend them. I was once in a linkshell where we had a very nice, if somewhat quiet Japanese member who was entirely fluent in English. One day, a newish member happened to say something (I think positive) about a "*** LS" he'd had contact with, and our Japanese member became very offended by the term "***." Of course, this was a derogatory term during World War II that to many Japanese (at least the older ones) might be seen as purely negative and offensive, but it seems most Americans these days simply don't know it had ever been a slur, and use it commonly as an abbreviation for Japanese. I tried to tell him all this, and not to take it personally, assuring him that it really wasn't meant to be offensive, but he just took off his pearl and never returned. We never heard anything from or about him again.

In the West, such avoidance would be seen as unhealthy behavior. I wonder what Japanese psychologists talk about with their patients.
#16 Jul 19 2010 at 1:07 AM Rating: Excellent
DragoonRising wrote:
One thing I've noticed about Japanese players that's been touched on briefly in this thread is that they just don't want to talk about things that upset or offend them. I was once in a linkshell where we had a very nice, if somewhat quiet Japanese member who was entirely fluent in English. One day, a newish member happened to say something (I think positive) about a "*** LS" he'd had contact with, and our Japanese member became very offended by the term "***." Of course, this was a derogatory term during World War II that to many Japanese (at least the older ones) might be seen as purely negative and offensive, but it seems most Americans these days simply don't know it had ever been a slur, and use it commonly as an abbreviation for Japanese. I tried to tell him all this, and not to take it personally, assuring him that it really wasn't meant to be offensive, but he just took off his pearl and never returned. We never heard anything from or about him again.

In the West, such avoidance would be seen as unhealthy behavior. I wonder what Japanese psychologists talk about with their patients.


LOL Smiley: lol Good one.

As far as the term goes... I can't buy that people, even young people today don't know that it's an offensive term. At the very least, a very rude term. Personally, I'd rate it right up there with the "N" word. But that's me.
#17 Jul 19 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Decent
**
411 posts
Polite in America is much different than polite in Japan, though. Even understanding the culture and the language, it can be difficult.
#18 Jul 19 2010 at 1:11 AM Rating: Decent
**
411 posts
Quote:
Personally, I'd rate it right up there with the "N" word


I don't know that I'd rate it there, but it is a very offensive term to the Japanese.
#19 Jul 19 2010 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
255 posts
With all due respect to the NA's out there, but I never enjoyed pt'ing with them.

I'm from Australia, but more importantly I don't like to play like an NA. The biggest difference (imo) between NA and JP players is that NA take the strategy of "omfg kill it kill it now!" where JP players are happy to take their time and manage the conflict correctly and minimize casualty. JP strategy is lower risk in short.

That being said, JP ONRY frustrated me to no end. Even if you can speak JP (as I can), if I was typing in English characters it would be enough to deny pt entry. It's important to note though that when getting the {No, thanks} response to a pt invite from a JP player, the 'thanks' part of it is very important. They'll never say "lolno, you're na" they honestly just do not wish to.

In NA culture, the act of saying "No" just because you don't want to is considered rude and is often covered up with white lies (e.g. "No I err, have a headache") - However this excuse making doesn't really exist in JP culture, people are routinely far more open with one another about this sort of stuff.

In short, it's not rude to simply say "No, thanks" if you just don't feel like it.
____________________________
[img]http://sigs.enjin.com/sig-ffxiv/15834_3d32ad424a3db4b1.png[/img]
#20 Jul 19 2010 at 2:03 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
76 posts
swisa wrote:
I played FFXI for only maybe 4 or 5 months after NA release before the exp loss death penalty became too much to deal with, so I never really had much of a chance to play with many of the Japanese players. I had always heard about how someone got to play in a Japanese group the night previously and they were getting really good exp/hour and that it went so well and efficiently, that they were very impressed. I did end up coming back a year and a half later and played for a couple more months and I had been invited into 1 Japanese party. For that occasion, language was definitely the main problem that we faced. Maybe I was just tired, but the auto translate function wasn't helping much. I know it would have been a good party to be in if only I could tell what it was that they wanted me to do. They were trying to tell me the order of a skill chain they wanted to perform, but I just never really comprehended which chain it was that they wanted. Needless to say, I screwed it up several times and I never really did get it to work. They were all very polite and every once in awhile I would see one of the others type something in Japanese. Overall, I just ended up feeling pretty stupid because they tried their best to help me understand, but to no avail.

desertbynight, do you happen to know the URL for that forum where they asked each other questions? It sounds like something I'd like to read. In my experience, I never heard anybody say anything bad about the Japanese players. If they were mentioned, it was always something positive.


=) Don't forget that the game released in Japan a year before NA. I pre-ordered the game for NA release and when I did get in a team of all JP players at 4am EST it was smooth sailing and amazing xp, but thats because they where all alts that had been playing the game for a year.
#21 Jul 19 2010 at 2:09 AM Rating: Decent
23 posts
Quote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Quote:
I spent two years living in Okinawa, and while Okinawans do not necessarily consider themselves to be Japanese


Not to derail the topic, but why is this?


I'm not really sure why. It's just some thing that was mentioned to me enough that I stopped referring to Okinawans as "Japanese" in front of Okinawans to prevent being gently reminded.

To my western eyes, they spoke the same language, ate the same food, embraced the same pop culture, are a territory of Japan, etc, but for whatever reason they didn't like being referrred to as Japanese. I guess they just like to think of themselves as special and different, living on an island separated from the main islands.

Okinawa became part of Japan very late, I don't remember very well but on wikipedia is written under "history" about it.
#22 Jul 19 2010 at 2:12 AM Rating: Default
Thief's Knife
*****
15,053 posts
KarlHungis wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Quote:
I spent two years living in Okinawa, and while Okinawans do not necessarily consider themselves to be Japanese


Not to derail the topic, but why is this?


I'm not really sure why. It's just some thing that was mentioned to me enough that I stopped referring to Okinawans as "Japanese" in front of Okinawans to prevent being gently reminded.

To my western eyes, they spoke the same language, ate the same food, embraced the same pop culture, are a territory of Japan, etc, but for whatever reason they didn't like being referrred to as Japanese. I guess they just like to think of themselves as special and different, living on an island separated from the main islands.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 2:30am by KarlHungis


It goes both ways, most Japanese don't consider people from the islands to be "real" Japanese and consider them to be somewhat beneath them socially.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 5:14am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#23 Jul 19 2010 at 2:22 AM Rating: Decent
23 posts
Quote:

desertbynight, do you happen to know the URL for that forum where they asked each other questions? It sounds like something I'd like to read. In my experience, I never heard anybody say anything bad about the Japanese players. If they were mentioned, it was always something positive.

hmmm... you mean a japanese site about FFXI with discussions? I have still to find a good forum on japanese websites (for "good" I mean like "ZAM"!) Here they have many blogs, they are everywhere.... Anyway here I post the links to some sites I know:
http://www5.plala.or.jp/SQR/ff11/index.html
http://www5.plala.or.jp/SQR/ff14/index.html
http://www.ff14fan.com/
http://ff14.xdon.net/
this is a blog:
http://www.famitsu.com/blog/ff14/

I visited this pages often, I don't think they can harm your system or stuff like that. If you search for something else tell me, maybe I can help.
#24 Jul 19 2010 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
23 posts
Quote:
Very interesting read! I'm going to be an exchange student to Japan in one year after I graduate from High School, and I've been slowly learning all about Japanese culture and language. I hope I can use all this to my advantage to make some new friends. :]
Very interesting read! I'm going to be an exchange student to Japan in one year after I graduate from High School, and I've been slowly learning all about Japanese culture and language. I hope I can use all this to my advantage to make some new friends. :]

really?? You will surely enjoy your staying in Japan! I warmly suggest to everyone to visit Orient at least once in their life, better if when still young--^^--
#25 Jul 19 2010 at 2:32 AM Rating: Decent
23 posts
o.O

OMG I didn't know that "***" was offensive...!!
I used it sometimes because it's faster to type >< !!
When you are not mother-tongue this things happen...
is "JP" ok to use?
#26 Jul 19 2010 at 3:00 AM Rating: Good
*
108 posts
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
As far as the term goes... I can't buy that people, even young people today don't know that it's an offensive term. At the very least, a very rude term. Personally, I'd rate it right up there with the "N" word. But that's me.


No, really. I'd wager more than half of the young Americans I met on FFXI had no idea there was any history behind it. Mind you, I've met young Americans who believe we entered World War II with a nuclear sneak-attack on Hiroshima. American public school system at its finest, folks.

Americans are in a strange position, actually. We're generally deathly afraid of offending anyone's race or culture or religion or what have you, so when we accidentally do (and it is inevitable), it can be quite upsetting to us. I've seen people go through the first few stages of grief over it. We also want to (perhaps have a need to) apologize and open a dialogue so we can strive to be more "tolerant" in the future. This need of ours to talk about our transgressions is probably pretty annoying to our Japanese friends, but we really know no other way.
#27 Jul 19 2010 at 3:02 AM Rating: Decent
**
411 posts
JP is an ok abbreviation. It's actually the abbreviation for the country. JP = Japan, NA = North America, EU = Europe, AU = Australia, etc.
#28 Jul 19 2010 at 3:10 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
desertbynight wrote:
o.O

OMG I didn't know that "***" was offensive...!!
I used it sometimes because it's faster to type >< !!
When you are not mother-tongue this things happen...
is "JP" ok to use?


Yeah, "JP" is the commonly accepted term for Japanese Player. "***" and "Nip" are both racist remarks carried over from WWII. Much like *****, *****, or spick, they are considered EXTREMELY offensive to the people of those ethnicities.

It's not even comparable to "******" wherein it's "a bad word", yet the double standard exists that "only black people are allowed to say it"; it's not like the Japanese go around to each other saying "What's up, ***?"

I get that a lot of people who don't know any better will just see "***" as an abbreviation for "Japanese", but the Japanese sometimes take serious offense to the word.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#29 Jul 19 2010 at 3:12 AM Rating: Good
***
1,457 posts
*Wall of text, read if you're bored.

I played on the Valefor server. I had a LS called Kairyu and one of my first members back in 2003 was a japanese player named "Ryoma", that was his character. By the time I started playing he already had more than one 75 job and was really helpful. I knew basic japanese and we talked about all sorts of things. He runs a hotel on an island off the mainland and invited me to come stay there if I ever visited japan. Though I quit ffxi a while back I still stay in touch with him through email from time to time. He played in my LS when I was on, and switched to his jp ls when i went to bed around 3 or 4am pst. Great guy, still have no idea why on earth he would join my little ls and become real friends with myself and my rl friend Dezman. That was extremely good.

The extremely bad situation I had was as following: One night my friend Dez and I decided to check out koroloka tunnel. We walked in and waved to a group there. I said "ohayo gozaimasu" as it was morning for them. They all responded with greetings and ^ ^'s. Then another japanese player, a beastmaster, went in brought some sea horror thing with him yelling "hate you" "kill you" and other such hostile phrases in broken english and zoned the kraken right on top of us killing my friend and i (this was obviously pre-mpk patch.) I tried to send him tells but he responded in the same way so I gave up. What an *****.

However, most Japanese I played with were fun and really seemed to appreciate my knowing a bit of their language and culture. I took it in highschool for 4 years as my foreign language and thought oh how fun I get to use it. I got a lot of JP parties because of this and enjoyed veteran groups as a new player. As time went on though, americans learned the game and I more enjoyed their "balls to the walls" strategies and erratic gameplay. The japenese were "slower" for lack of a better term, not in a bad way, just seemed to take their time with things. I just wanted to grind and get it over with. So it's neither good nor bad, just a different way of playing than I had grown accustomed to so I began playing with more NAs. I do not subscribe to the "japanese are the ultra polite answer to society / F americans" viewpoint. I like my people just as much as I enjoy the company of people foreign to my culture.

Overall, I've had awesome experiences and sh*tty experiences with JP players because like the OP said morons are a plague in every country. Just thought I'd share some of my experiences. I'm glad they stuck us all together again, it should be very interesting.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 2:13am by GuardianFaith
____________________________
Hunter Avril
Rogue Ultra
Paladin Awhellnah
Mage Shantotto
Shaman Lakshmi
Faith (Valefor)

#30 Jul 19 2010 at 3:20 AM Rating: Decent
*****
11,539 posts
Indeed, there are polite, as well as rude players in any language. Perspective bias causes us to attribute behavior to language disproportionately.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#31 Jul 19 2010 at 3:32 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,087 posts
Osarion wrote:
RedGalka wrote:

Do JP consider every english speaking person automatically NA or do they know there are more different kinds of people out there?


Hehe, I'm fairly sure that the Japanese are aware of the existence of Canada, England, and other countries where English is the main national language.


I'm not sure why you included Canada in the Non-North American category.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 5:33am by snieh
#32 Jul 19 2010 at 3:42 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,801 posts
Quote:
I'm from Australia, but more importantly I don't like to play like an NA. The biggest difference (imo) between NA and JP players is that NA take the strategy of "omfg kill it kill it now!" where JP players are happy to take their time and manage the conflict correctly and minimize casualty. JP strategy is lower risk in short.


Wow, way to stereotype. "Kill it now" is a fine way to play given the right circumstances. And "manage the situation" is also fine given a different set of circumstances. Given the fact that FFXI had exp chains, the so-called NA mentality could often lead to more exp/hr, which is why people were so intent on killing things quickly.

I played a Blm, and let me tell you the most useful spell I had was Sleepga 2. If things went even a little bit bad, I had mobs asleep instead of pounding on the players. Believe me, I'm all for "managing the situation" if that was what was needed. Most of the time, it isn't needed, though.
____________________________
WoW -- Zaia -- Dragonmaw -- Mage 80 BABY! Alchemy 450
Also... Hunter 62, Rogue 52, Warrior 66, Warlock 43, Death Knight 70, Shaman Who Cares? ;)

FFXI -- Caia -- Retired/Deleted -- Blm 75, Alchemy 97
Pandimonium server - Rank 10 - Bastok

Zaela Rdm -- 35, Alchemy 45 -- Forced into retirement because I didn't have the right kind of credit card. Hope it was worth 18 bucks a month, SE.

#33 Jul 19 2010 at 4:41 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
255 posts
Quote:
Wow, way to stereotype. "Kill it now" is a fine way to play given the right circumstances. And "manage the situation" is also fine given a different set of circumstances. Given the fact that FFXI had exp chains, the so-called NA mentality could often lead to more exp/hr, which is why people were so intent on killing things quickly.


Man I guess it didn't really matter what I said I should have expected this. O.K. to ease your suffering, by no means did I intend to stereotype NA players as all like that, but I'm speaking from my experiences with them and my preferences for playing the management game.
____________________________
[img]http://sigs.enjin.com/sig-ffxiv/15834_3d32ad424a3db4b1.png[/img]
#34 Jul 19 2010 at 4:58 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
snieh wrote:
Osarion wrote:
RedGalka wrote:

Do JP consider every english speaking person automatically NA or do they know there are more different kinds of people out there?


Hehe, I'm fairly sure that the Japanese are aware of the existence of Canada, England, and other countries where English is the main national language.


I'm not sure why you included Canada in the Non-North American category.]


Or excluded every country that doesn't have English as it's main national language.
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#35 Jul 19 2010 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
169 posts
Papanurf wrote:
Quote:
Wow, way to stereotype. "Kill it now" is a fine way to play given the right circumstances. And "manage the situation" is also fine given a different set of circumstances. Given the fact that FFXI had exp chains, the so-called NA mentality could often lead to more exp/hr, which is why people were so intent on killing things quickly.


Man I guess it didn't really matter what I said I should have expected this. O.K. to ease your suffering, by no means did I intend to stereotype NA players as all like that, but I'm speaking from my experiences with them and my preferences for playing the management game.

Me? I'd say I'm pretty patient. ^~^ Kind of strange to be stereotyped under "Kill It Now!". But either way, I look foward to playing with all types of people with different play styles and ways of doing things.
#36 Jul 19 2010 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
*
239 posts
Someone briefly said their concept of friendship is different, I was wondering if anyone knew more about that?

Is it rude to ask other players you've grouped well with to be Facebook friends? One of my husbands old JP friends from highschool has only 29 Facebook friends, so I wonder if they "save" that for "real friends" in which case I'm honored he added me as an old friends wife, but wouldn't want to make the socially "demanding" or "imposing" misstep of asking another player to friend me. Lots of people use Facebook as a casual social connection, but do they tend to take it more seriously? Another JP friend has 400 Facebook friends, so I'm less worried about "imposing" on him. But it goes to show that while it's important not to say we're all really the same," They are the same in the fact that they have just as much variety between people as us...

I'm really looking forward to the chance to meet a lot of new people online and maybe even get to see them later that year, I certainly don't want to end up Gaijin-smashing my way through Japan.

That link is a killer blog by the way of this tall African American guy who moved to Japan. At first just as an exchange teacher, then he later married and stayed. the early blogs are full of notes about cultural differences.
#37 Jul 19 2010 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
**
711 posts
Let me put on my politically incorrect hat.

Why, it seems to me that this is somewhat a one side thing. It seems to me that there are more NAs (I'm not sure about our friends over in Europe so I will just limited it to the North Americans) want to play with the JPs and are willing to bend over backward to varies degree in order to do so. I certainly don't see the same thing going on on the other side. The JPs I played with before behaved very much JP and from what I hear on the forum, they get mad sometime on something that are perceived as normal by the NAs. Why can't we behave like NAs and still play with JPs and have them understand us a little and tolerate our normal behavior? :) I understand it has to do with the culture part, but it doesn't make the issue less interesting.

/Take off politically incorrect hat

The above wasn't meant to criticize our friends from the Land of Raising Sun, so I apologize in advance if I had offended someone. I was merely being very NA and speak what is in my mind. :)

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 10:39am by OneFatAngel
____________________________
春天不是讀書天,
夏日炎炎正好眠,
等到秋來冬又至,
收拾書包好過年。

#38 Jul 19 2010 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
*
239 posts
I bet the reasons for wanting to play with JP players, more than they want to play with us, varies from person to person. Some people want to feel more accepted, some want to take pride in having the chance to "represent" their side and do a good job, some are just curious, there's also the chance to be excepted somewhere just a little more exclusive than everywhere else, and probably a dozen other reasons I can't fathom. The stereo-types we have of JP players are mostly positive, so it makes them appealing. The stereo-types they have of us are mostly at least uncomfortable, so that makes us less so...

Just like how we argue a lot of the time, we tend to "reach out," open a debate, and try to get the other person to understand and validate our side of it. (though sometimes it degenerates to name calling when validating your side gets thrown out in favor for just de-validating them.) Whereas they tend to leave it be and attempt to move on as soon as possible. (at least, this is the perception)

They would simply "leave us be" if they are uncomfortable with our way of doing things, whereas we feel the need to explain everything out in the open. I wonder if to them it's imposing to debate everything, like a jehovah's witness coming to your door all the time to explain their side of things when you really don't want to be bothered. They are doing it because they are certain they are right and you need to know, but you are certain of your own beliefs and are just fine with them. Perhaps those assumptions are what's offensive about open conflict? that by stating the "superior" platform of your beliefs you are telling them theirs are "wrong" or not good enough?
#39 Jul 19 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
@OneFatAngel: Yup, the bending over backwards does seem very one-sided. Like not wanting to use the auto-translate function. I will never understand that.
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#40 Jul 19 2010 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
Even within the U.S. there are cultural differences. I had a friend who moved from the east coast to Oregon and it disturbed him that people were so friendly here. He was sure that people were just bottling it up and that someone was going to snap and kill him, because on the east coast, mainly New York, people are more open about their grievances, and not so much here. It's not that we're bottling it up though, we're just less likely to openly have conflict. Moreso than Japan, I guess, but honestly, having been to a few places in Canada and a few places in the U.S., it's interesting that I found less differences between here and western Canada than here and the Eastern U.S. for instance.
____________________________
Die! Die die die. die die die die, die die. - Scarlet Briar
#41 Jul 19 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
539 posts
When I played XI I never really ran across any of the JP ONLY crap a lot of people complain about. I started to think that it really wasn't a huge issue and was being blown out of proportion. Then I read an interesting post about perceived racism and the real source being a language barrier. This made a world of sense, as I had partied quite often with JP players (especially when leveling bard, anyone invites you when you level bard. . .) Anyway, I think my encounters with JP players were so successful because we were both calm and respectful about the language barrier. I tried my best to communicate with what little words I knew and through the Auto translate function, and they would use the most amount of English they could to spare me from feeling left out. Bottom line: we both respected the other.

I see a lot of "JP players feel this way" or "NA players feel that way". I think everyone would go quite far in international relationships if they simply didn't expect a certain behavior. Being as polite and patient as possible while being open to different personalities will go a long way in any circumstance.

I loved XI's integrated servers, and am looking forward to the mingling that will happen in XIV. And, in case anyone didn't notice, Elmer has been making an effort to teach different aspects of polite conversation to both player bases here. I think it's a great idea.

ok, so posting before coffee is all bad. I should stop doing that. . .

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 7:56am by olaurelindorenan
____________________________


#42 Jul 19 2010 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
**
711 posts
Like I said before, cultural different does make a difference. One major difference I can think of is the NAs are very used to deal with people with different cultural background. After all, US and Canada are just a mixing bowl of people from all over the world. Maybe that's why the NAs are adopted to deal with people who behave differently. Say, if someone from different part of the world did something strange or something mildly offensive, most of us will just shrug it off and kindly let the person know what he/she was doing can raise an eye-browse here.

____________________________
春天不是讀書天,
夏日炎炎正好眠,
等到秋來冬又至,
收拾書包好過年。

#43 Jul 19 2010 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
Quote:

It would be nice if 14 didn't have the stereotypes of 11...though I wonder to
think how the JP will react to some of the WoW community who will make an appearance.


Frankly, I'm more worried about this stereotype than the NA vs JP. What exactly do you mean by "WoW player" and what makes you think that XI doesn't currently have anyone from WoW?

If you are wondering what will happen if XIV has mainstream appeal, then maybe you should phrase that remark a little better so it doesn't sound so insulting.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 10:59am by Torrence
#44 Jul 19 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
Ehh, I've had my fair share of good and bad experiences with JP players. It's just a clash of two different cultures that don't go together well.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#45 Jul 19 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,122 posts
I was trying to convince my girlfriend in Japan to get a desktop instead of waiting for the PS3 version by finding a sufficiently cheap one with acceptable specs, but when I check the usual sites like Dell JP, Fujitsu, NEC I can't find anything approaching suitable for gaming which other than hugely overpriced Alienware stuff.

I wonder where JP players buy their computers... does anyone know any sites? I guess computer gaming isn't that popular in Japan, but still...

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 12:13pm by Dizmo
#46 Jul 19 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Default
**
423 posts
Quote:
What exactly do you mean by "WoW player" and what makes you think that XI doesn't currently have anyone from WoW?


WoW Player is the ADD ridden devil child. Usually these are people that have no attention span, no patience, no understanding and like to e-rage a lot. I have met sooooo many of them on WoW. They like things handed to them and if they aren't they are free to voice their opinions.

FFXI didn't have too many because of those though because your name was your reputation a lot of the time. The game was too challanging but really the people that couldn't handle it left leaving only those who cared about the game(i don't support this FYI).

One example is the guy i sit next to at work. Got into the Alpha and came to me after he tried it and said "This is the worst game i have ever played". I couldn't help but laugh because he went on about how "confusing" it was to know what to do and where to go and he didn't even make it out of town. To note he is an avid WoW player and i throw a few of those "WoW player" stereotypes on him.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 9:42am by boriss
#47 Jul 19 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,523 posts
Quote:
What exactly do you mean by "WoW player" and what makes you think that XI doesn't currently have anyone from WoW?


Remember this kid? WoW has a lot of them. A LOT MORE then FFXI. I'm talking in percentages here. No "Yeah WoW has more because WoW is bigger"-crap please. I'm not trying to be funny. They really got them.
____________________________
____(>°°)D_->__(O°°)>-_<(;,,;)>_C-(°°Q)__O~~_t(°°<)_(;o0)___<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_<(;,,;)>_____

#48 Jul 19 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
26 posts
Just my two cents on this issue:

I've been to Japan several times and I spent over two months there on 2008. Foreigners who don't speak Japanese are in many cases denied some services in Japan such as renting or buying houses and not allowed in some bars or restaurants for example. This is in most cases because of the language barrier and my impression was that far from being some type of racial profiling it is because they want to ensure that whatever service they are providing is done correctly and if they are not capable of doing this because of the language, then they would prefer not to get into it or "give it a try" as most of us would do.

The same goes for Japanese parties in Final Fantasy. They want their PT's to go well and to be able to communicate with you to let you know of their strategy. So what I believe is that if you're not able to communicate with them, they would rather not include you in their party.

Their culture is closed to outsiders in many ways, but it's more opened if you can speak their language. I do speak some Japanese and I'm normally able to join their PTs if I let them know that I can communicate. Of course there are some exceptions.

So my only suggestion would be not to take it personal and start bashing people because they won't join your PT or not invite you to theirs.

written communications are cold and ever more when you don't master the language, so in these cases you may just get a NO and will sound a bit rough but that's the best they can do in most cases.

#49 Jul 19 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
What exactly do you mean by "WoW player" and what makes you think that XI doesn't currently have anyone from WoW?


Remember this kid? WoW has a lot of them. A LOT MORE then FFXI. I'm talking in percentages here. No "Yeah WoW has more because WoW is bigger"-crap please. I'm not trying to be funny. They really got them.


You know I'd ask you to provide some kind of support for your gross generalization, but this is not even the place for it. The topic of the thread is the relationship between NA and JP players.
#50RedGalka, Posted: Jul 19 2010 at 11:11 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Played WoW for four years, playing FFXI since CoP
#51 Jul 19 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
5,159 posts
I also played WoW and FFXI for about four years each. All of the "omg stupid WoW players hurr" crap is just FFXI players with an inferiority complex. The communities are almost identical, except that in FFXI you're forced to interact with each other a lot more.
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 23 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (23)