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NA players as seen from JapanFollow

#52 Jul 19 2010 at 11:20 AM Rating: Good
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Thank you for the post. I think much of it will be player dependent...being a RDM I was invited to JP parties due to necessity at times...for the most part I got along very well with their players. I even became friends with some and would chat when we happened to be on at the same time. We helped each other with our respective languages and overall it was a great experience. I think the main thing is to be courteous and polite to everyone, cause at the end of the day it feels better to be treated that way.
#53 Jul 19 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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To be fair, as a NA player since PC release and up until about 2 years ago... I never really encountered "Sorry, JP PT only" until after PS2 release. All the JPs I met were helpful, and when they couldn't communicate via autotranslate they often used point emotes to show directions when players shouted for help. They almost always raised etc...

Somewhere around the time of PS2 release there were alot of people beggin for PL or items or gil. Not all of them were PS2 players, I just think that after PC had been out a while, people were coming into the game expecting everyone to be NA and that it was like other MMO's where it's the norm to spam until people give you stuff for free.

Right around the time I quite XI for good, it was mostly NA players that were ******* me off. The only way I could get merit XP was with my LS Sky Farming or every once in a while XP farming on my THF. NA wouldn't PT with THF, JP wouldn't PT with NA... So I spend a lot of time leveling up SJs, and found that other than a healing role there was no chance what so ever to get a PT at non Prime Time.

My two favorite Party situations were with my friends, or with JP. Both were efficient, minimal downtime, minimal BS, and everyone (even those not UBER equipped) did their job to the best of their ability. Honestly if I could speak Japanese I'd most likely spend 80%ish of my time partying with them instead of my fellow English speakers. So much less drama, much more efficient, open to ideas that benefit the entire group as opposed to OMG super XP (even though the fight took 2 min)...

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#54 Jul 19 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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boriss wrote:

WoW Player is the ADD ridden devil child. Usually these are people that have no attention span, no patience, no understanding and like to e-rage a lot. I have met sooooo many of them on WoW. They like things handed to them and if they aren't they are free to voice their opinions.

FFXI didn't have too many because of those though because your name was your reputation a lot of the time. The game was too challanging but really the people that couldn't handle it left leaving only those who cared about the game(i don't support this FYI).

One example is the guy i sit next to at work. Got into the Alpha and came to me after he tried it and said "This is the worst game i have ever played". I couldn't help but laugh because he went on about how "confusing" it was to know what to do and where to go and he didn't even make it out of town. To note he is an avid WoW player and i throw a few of those "WoW player" stereotypes on him.


I hate to point this out - but this is a large reason that folks walked away from XI at a very early stage. I had a hard time figuring out exactly what my next move was when I was first dumped into Basty. They added a tutorial NPC I think last year sometime and that's really helped people get started, but back in the day? We were all running around confused. If there is still this sort of confusion by someone who is familiar with MMOs in the XIV beta, that doesn't bode well for this game's potential mainstream appeal, either.

You know why WoW appeals to so many? Because it's fun and it doesn't have to be your second job (that is, unless you really want it to be). I don't really want to turn this into a this vs that debate because I like both games and have played both for years - but I WILL ask that this community tone it down some and stop being so openly hostile to anyone who enjoys playing other games.

This is what I mean when I say the NA vs JP is minor. People feel more strongly about XI vs WoW than they do about different races playing together(or so it seems).
#55 Jul 19 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I plan on learning a bunch of phrases and words just for all of this. Maybe even some hiragana/kanji to go with it! Lack of communication is a terrible thing. :\

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 1:39pm by Austyn
#56 Jul 19 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I have the level 1 Rosetta Stone software for Japanese, just no time to actually sit down and try it.
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#57 Jul 19 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Wint wrote:
I have the level 1 Rosetta Stone software for Japanese, just no time to actually sit down and try it.

Oh same here, yeah! I'm pretty sure by now that Otokonoko is boy. ._. Hmm... can't remember learning much else from it. Oh that's right! I know Booru = Ball now. ^~^

F*ck yeah...
#58 Jul 19 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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yeah I never had much trouble ptying with JP before PS release either - actually my first ever party was a JP party - it was a maze of Shakrami (or whatever) blm mana burn party and it was the best exp that my first char ever got... (I lost access to the game after 3 months /sadface ...)

When I came back to the game after WoTG there was more tension but it never bothered me. I did get less invites from JP parties at that point though. Before about 33% of my invites were from JP parties. After - maybe 5%
#59 Jul 19 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Default
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NA players as seen from (insert your Country here).

http://i30.tinypic.com/l8hvs.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8965/1279024907380.jpg

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 1:09pm by AliensAreHere

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 1:10pm by AliensAreHere
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#60 Jul 19 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I always enjoy conversations on differences among cultures, and it's interesting seeing the perspective on it from a FFXI/XIV point of view like in this thread, especially since it brings me to think about these things more too. I began playing FFXI at NA PC release (I am from Indiana of all places), and played it mostly for the several years afterward. Then, in 2008, I had the opportunity to study abroad in Japan for a year, and experienced for myself what it's like dealing directly with Japanese culture.

I really enjoyed the points the OP made, as it reminded me of many of my own thoughts of my experiences while living in Japan, and thought I'd try to share them on a couple of those points.

Japanese in general are very shy, and especially toward foreigners. This is especially true with Japanese men, since they're traditionally focused on work and business instead of "culture studies". They have a very strong focus on this from an early age, and therefore don't have much experience in dealing with foreign cultures. I can go into more detail but that would just make this a long essay. XD

Also, with the way English is taught in Japan, by college and beyond Japanese have very little confidence in their ability to communicate in it. As with other subjects they're drilled in memorization, and so they can read quite well as another poster mentioned, but when it comes to trying to communicate themselves... nope. They just don't get the practice in actual speaking and conversation. For this reason, and with how meticulous FFXI groups need to be in some things, I understand why they'd be reluctant to party with someone they don't feel they'd be able to communicate with. Beyond that, Japanese rarely expect foreigners to know any Japanese (even ones they meet in Japan), and even if they hear it, they just don't regard it the same way... So even if you demonstrate some Japanese skill, they likely won't believe it.

The other thing I wanted to mention was about friendship. This was something I struggled with greatly while I was in Japan. To me, it can be a bit of a mysterious world there. Without going into too much detail, they have in general a very different idea of "friendship" from what we're used to in the West.

In such a tight society like theirs you have to get along with lots of people, and so you attain many "shiriai", or acquaintances. These are people you know, who you might hang out with for various activities such as karaoke or a drinking party, but who you keep very separate from your home life. In this way you may actually spend a lot of your time with a certain person or a few people, but they wouldn't be friends or best friends like we think of them in the US. You wouldn't feel obligated to them outside of social encounters, and wouldn't expect obligation from them toward you.

It's hard to explain and understand, but the effect it has on someone from the US for example, is that you wouldn't feel as close to the Japanese person as you'd expect toward someone you think you know so well by the time you spend together. You're still more of what we'd think of as an "acquaintance". This wouldn't change unless you actually start dating someone or in another way become a part of the family. To me, it feels rather lonely, and I'd expect my Japanese friends to have that lonely feeling as well (note this is with respect to other Japanese people they know instead of just me), but they don't... It's just what's natural to them. It's just so vastly different from our own culture and society that it's really hard to understand and work with.

To the person who asked about being Facebook friends - since Facebook friends are so casual even for us, I wouldn't see a big problem with it for most Japanese who are on Facebook (though they're adopting it much slower than we are, preferring to use more mobile-friendly apps like Mixi). I Facebook-friended all sorts of Japanese while I was over there. :)
#61 Jul 19 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
yeah I never had much trouble ptying with JP before PS release either - actually my first ever party was a JP party - it was a maze of Shakrami (or whatever) blm mana burn party and it was the best exp that my first char ever got... (I lost access to the game after 3 months /sadface ...)

When I came back to the game after WoTG there was more tension but it never bothered me. I did get less invites from JP parties at that point though. Before about 33% of my invites were from JP parties. After - maybe 5%


I don't recall Manaburn PTs until well after NA PS2 release... Just saying. Then again maybe there was manburn, but only on worms, I don't remember, it's been so long.
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#62 Jul 19 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
I hate to point this out - but this is a large reason that folks walked away from XI at a very early stage. I had a hard time figuring out exactly what my next move was when I was first dumped into Basty.


I bought the game about 2-3 months after NA release...holy **** was I confused and alone. Most of the players at that time were still Japanese, so while asking for help I was usually responded to with a <sorry>, no <english>. I think it took me about an hour to figure out how to attack something. Another hour to figure out how to heal and about 3 weeks before I realized I could use food to help leveling go quicker. I died so many times as a lowbie it was frustrating. Without the help of a friend who was already level 30 at that point I would have been completely lost and probably would have quit the game. Lucky for me he was in a great linkshell that taught me the ropes, but I can imagine for a few unlucky players they left the game early in dissatisfaction due to lack of direction.
#63 Jul 19 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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WoW Player is the ADD ridden devil child. Usually these are people that have no attention span, no patience, no understanding and like to e-rage a lot. I have met sooooo many of them on WoW


Did you every consider that the reason you run in to these people more in warcraft is because of the simple fact that it has about 10 times the active subscriptions? I'm not even including gold farmers.

Let's say 10% of people are complete **********

FFXI: 10% of 500,000 = 50,000 *********
WoW: 10% of 5,000,000 (at least) = 500,000 *********

Since you are only one person in both games, I find it more likely that you'd come across these players in WoW. It doesn't really have much to do with the game itself; that's just how people are.

I don't really subscribe to the argument that WoW is to McDonald's as FFXI is to fine dining. The demographic may differ a bit in terms of the type of art style or gameplay people prefer, but that says nothing about their attitude or intelligence. If you think all WoW players are dumb and ADD, the people at elitist jerks have some spread sheets for you.

I certainly hope you're wrong because a substantial (although not the majority) percentage of FFXIV players will be former WoW players.

Edited, Jul 19th 2010 3:56pm by GuardianFaith
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#64 Jul 19 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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The thing about XI, for better or for worse, is that you pretty much -had- to be sociable and talk to people to learn the game. It really helped to already have a friend before you started; someone to tell you the basic stuff that the game didn't explain.

They added a loose tutorial to the game later, but it is still a game where one cannot expect to be antisocial and still do well.

I hope that XIV includes some type of tutorial to teach you the ropes, but at the same time, I also hope that XIV lends itself to being designed in such a way that being sociable and polite is extremely encouraged, like XI was.
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#65 Jul 19 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
I hope that XIV includes some type of tutorial to teach you the ropes, but at the same time, I also hope that XIV lends itself to being designed in such a way that being sociable and polite is extremely encouraged, like XI was.


Maintaining the balance between solo-able and group activities will be the hardest part for XIV to successfully complete, but if done correctly could affect the outcome of this game for the better. I will agree that I enjoyed the level of politeness as well as accountability that XI had (although WoW had a few recognizable characters in chat every so often).
#66 Jul 19 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Good post desertbynight.

I only partied with JP a few times, but enjoyed each of them.
I couldn't understand what they were saying to each other, but there seemed to be none of the insulting banter non JP parties give each other. I do like a bit (a lot) of crude banter, but I got the impression most of what they were typing was related to the game. I found it quite refreshing.
And I've found in life it's generally better to be polite......certainly doesn't cost anything.
I was though embarrassed by the fact I knew nothing of their language.


As for the Okinawan thing, we have a similar thing in Britain. We are an island and don't generally class ourselves as part of Europe, even though we are part of the European Union. ****, even most English people don't acknowledge Wales, Scotland or Ireland as British.
And the Cornish (southwestern most part of Britain) don't accept the rest of the country.
Guess you have a similar thing with America/Canada.
#67 Jul 19 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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I love this entire thread and read all the replies it has gotten. I moved to the United States when i was in 5th grade, and what makes this topic so interesting is the way NA players feel about JP players (timid, different believe of friendship, and so on). Its interesting to me because i felt the same way about Americans when i moved over here. I was born in the Dominican Republic and people over there are extremely social... i dont think extreme is even the word for it. Just about any situation can be turned into, what people would think, is a party. For example, if you get on a bus, expect the entire bus to be joking around and making fun of anything possible... Here in the USA i still feel that people are timid towards each other... and its hard to believe JP citizens are even more shy (but i saw it in ffxi). Another point is how friendships work. In the Dominican Republic, a friend isnt just the people you hang out with all the time, but also the people youre family members consider friends. My entire town treated me as a friend and sometimes they acted as family. In the United States, a friends friend is not necessarily your friend.

As in for Japanese players, "being polite and saying thank you", as a good ffxi friend told me (Slyspark from Kujata), goes a very long way. I never really understood this (i was young)... but thinking back to the number of JP that he could get to help him do quests... it makes perfect sense lol... He was really good with people and in ffxi i think that is the number 1 most important trait you can have next to skills then equipment and so on...
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#68 Jul 19 2010 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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I love how the thread has subtly turned from "NA vs JP" to "FF VS WoW"

in FFXI in my day, I had my share of both good and bad NA and JP parties. There were some people that put <no XX players>, on both sides. You get over it. It's a video game.

In WoW, where I migrated for something new after 4 or 5 years, I have to admit I never saw any of the angry ignorant kids until the last 6 months or so [stupid faction transfers]. It was really easy to avoid those people: You just didn't roll Alliance. The games AND the people were vastly different, and absolutely the same at the same time. MMO = drama. [PERIOD] (Deny it all you want, deep down inside you know I'm right) That small group of number crunchers that can sit there and analyze out to the 9th decimal place maximized damage potential. I haven't been able to put that kind of thought in since before CoP on BLM. Ultimately, when the chips were down, it came down to the SKILL of the player, and the skill of his party mates.

The great thing about the internet is it's ability to strip away age and race, *** and religion, and give people a place to interract as our core selves, without any of the extra B/S getting in the way. And we, as humans. . find whatever excuse we can to put our extra B/S BACK in the way. JP, NA, EU, red, pink, albino, plaid. . .it's time to just give up and say "F' IT! IF YOU HAVE HUMANOID FORM AND A HUMAN SKULL, YOU'RE ON MY TEAM"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And just get though the stupid fight so we can finish the CS so we can move forward in progression. :P



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#69 Jul 20 2010 at 1:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The great thing about the internet is it's ability to strip away age and race, *** and religion


ZOMG males playing females are total losers/trannies/gender confused !!!11!

Anyways... :D

I played XI for a long time I saw "no XX players" on both sides occasionally, but I still joined both sides and did fine. Sure, in a JP I couldn't join the random banter at the time, but I could still communicate what was necessary with the auto translate system. In fact, I really enjoyed being able to get on at odd hours and play with the JP since most of NA was asleep, it helped even out the populations at all times. Occasionally I would play with another regional person I that I could speak with and we'd often end up chatting about our own area's and asking each other questions, which was interesting and fun.

I found it very being able to play with and make friends with people anywhere in the world, or at the very least play with them even through the language barrier (which AT system did fine for getting game mechanics across). It was a unique thing that no other mmo ever brought me, as well as something I look forward to seeing again.
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#70 Jul 20 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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Hahaha! This was very funny.
Ok, I want to be fair. I hope you'll enjoy this movie about how italians are compared to other europeans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wv8SqiHCHE

Quote:

In such a tight society like theirs you have to get along with lots of people, and so you attain many "shiriai", or acquaintances. These are people you know, who you might hang out with for various activities such as karaoke or a drinking party, but who you keep very separate from your home life. In this way you may actually spend a lot of your time with a certain person or a few people, but they wouldn't be friends or best friends like we think of them in the US. You wouldn't feel obligated to them outside of social encounters, and wouldn't expect obligation from them toward you.

It's hard to explain and understand, but the effect it has on someone from the US for example, is that you wouldn't feel as close to the Japanese person as you'd expect toward someone you think you know so well by the time you spend together. You're still more of what we'd think of as an "acquaintance". This wouldn't change unless you actually start dating someone or in another way become a part of the family. To me, it feels rather lonely, and I'd expect my Japanese friends to have that lonely feeling as well (note this is with respect to other Japanese people they know instead of just me), but they don't... It's just what's natural to them. It's just so vastly different from our own culture and society that it's really hard to understand and work with.


True, true and again, true. So, if you look it from the other side, many ways to communicate between NA players are not well understood in Japan. Another thing: sarcasm between westerns can easily lead to laugh, but in Japan it's not immediate at all.

Quote:

Let's say 10% of people are complete **********


I guess in Italy there are more. Otherwise I see no reason for the presence of Berlusconi as prime minister in my country for all this years.

Anyway I'll tell you, I get along very well with NA players on internet, MMO, etc. but I find it more difficult in the real life. I don't think that this is a problem directly related to nationality, but maybe for many complicated reasons about human relationships. Don't get what I want to say? Well, I'll give another example: I am sure that I am now writing and communicating with very young people too (I mean about 15 years old or even less). Well, this maybe won't be happening in the real life very easily. At least I never have a chance to discuss this things with "kids"! But here I am, 32 years old: we communicate politely and with many interesting opinions and I read so many things that I think are intelligent and sometimes "inspired" in this forums, things that maybe a young guy wrote and I appreciate as they are, without any "age filter" that would maybe refrain the young guy to speak to me or me to listen to him.

Another different thing: being italian in Japan sometimes helps me to "relax" the people around me. They seem to say: "AAaaahhh, you are italian! Then you are not going to do any harm! Pizzaaaaa!!!" Of course this is just a prejudice, but helps me out. One time, a japanese told me that when when he thinks about english language, the first things that come to his mind are some bad words "F***" etc., but that with italian he thinks only "happy things": cappuccino, opera, amore, dolce vita, etc... I dunno how much this is valid in japanese society "as a whole", but I got used to say "ciao!" to people I don't know when I first meet them, because it seems a nice way to break the ice. Anyone had similar experiences?

I cannot find the post anymore, but someone wrote something like "Why can't we just behave as NA players and not try always to "bend" because the others don't understand our way of doing". I see your point, you are right. But you are not a bad guy, I am sure. And I am also sure that one who is not a bad guy feels very unhappy when treated like he was. This is often a problem for many NA players that just want to enjoy, why not, with many different cultures and people, but feel "avoided" (at least I met players who told me this). So I guess that everyone (japanese included of course!!) should be natural with people culturally similar to himself, but should also be a little more comprehensive and maintain a positive and tolerant attitude when is with people different from himself.
#71 Jul 20 2010 at 3:43 AM Rating: Good
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Reading again what I just wrote I want to add that the guy that remembers bad words in English is a one-time event and maybe I had better non writing it because it's unhappy and not representative, I think, of Japanese people as a whole.
#72 Jul 20 2010 at 6:46 AM Rating: Default
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I also wanted to say... about the 10% of the population being ************ Maybe im wrong but if 10% out of 500,000 are ************ that means you have a 1 in 10 chance to meet a ******** no? and if 10% out of 5,000,000 are ************ that means you have a 1 in 10 chance to meet a **** head... no?
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#73 Jul 20 2010 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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this is a really intelligent thread, (or started as one) about cultural differences in FFXIV lets not bring WoW in here unless your going to contrast the stuation with how people generally behave on WoW JP servers.

That said I see lots of language threads and guides everywhere that talk about all the polite things to say, but no really clear "for dummies" about what they would consider good behavior. A lot of it sounds over-the-top to me, are we over-reacting and being too polite? are they holding us to a higher standard for "intruding" or is the very high level of politeness they exhibit actually normal for them and their just used to it?

Saying, "sorry for shouting" before every shout would just seem insincere over here, but I hear it's rude to just shout over there without prefacing with a quick "Sorry/excuse me."

Is this really true?
#74 Jul 20 2010 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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Wonderful Post! I think it all comes down to the key word : "Respect!"

I started playing FFXI right after its release. It was my first MMO and I was a complete noob. I remember standing in a weapons shop one day, counting my gil to see if I could buy anything, when a JP player came up next to me. He must have examined me because he sent me a tell saying that I needed a better sword and to stay right there. He was back shortly with a sword he had in his storage and a piece of armor. He gave them to me without even knowing who I was. He said that it would help me to get started. After that, we became long lime friends until he changed servers to join more of his JP friends.

After that day, I found that most all the Japanese players I encountered were the same. They all seemed warm and friendly and very interested our culture. I think that if we as players practice a little maturity and respect, any language barrier can be overcome.

Anyway, just a California girls experience and perspective on things.

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 11:07am by Lorielll
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#75 Jul 20 2010 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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As stated in many previous comments, great post. I have to admit at first I would of just shruged it off and had the whole 'get over it' attitude but during my time in the service i was stationed at Camp Zama in Okinawa and i learned a great deal. More about myself as a american as well as the huge cultural differences between us and japan. I played ff 11 for about 6 years and I always learned something new from other players, regardless of where their from. I find it interesting and fun to see how others carry themselves and how their culture is. Guess that's another thing my time in the service taught me. Again, great post.
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#76 Jul 20 2010 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Tweezle120 wrote:
That said I see lots of language threads and guides everywhere that talk about all the polite things to say, but no really clear "for dummies" about what they would consider good behavior. A lot of it sounds over-the-top to me, are we over-reacting and being too polite? are they holding us to a higher standard for "intruding" or is the very high level of politeness they exhibit actually normal for them and their just used to it?

Saying, "sorry for shouting" before every shout would just seem insincere over here, but I hear it's rude to just shout over there without prefacing with a quick "Sorry/excuse me."

Is this really true?


For the most part, it's kind of a conditioned thing to do. Like saying 'thanks' when someone holds the door open for you, but you're not actually thinking about how much you appreciate their act of kindness. When they preface their shouts with "sumimasen" it's not that they're necessarily sorry about making you read their text, it's more of a way of politely getting your attention, like saying "excuse/pardon me" to a stranger. I think the reason we sometimes look at that funny is because most Japanese players tend to carry their real world mannerisms and politeness into the virtual world, whereas that's less common with Western players because we're more worried about efficiency and getting to the point. We tend to think of each other as equals on some level (not necessarily in terms of skill), so that we are automatically comfortable speaking with each other online. However, the idea of being unequal and putting yourself below others is so engrained in Japanese culture that it's not surprising to see it carry over into the online world.

Example: JP players don't refer to each other by character name in a party, they refer to each other by job and race. Calling someone by name in Japanese carries the implication that you are close friends, so if you aren't, that's considered surprising/rude. I was in a party once with a Japanese player, he was a Taru PLD. He was very nice and did a good job, and the other party members were using Auto-Translate to compliment him, but they repeatedly referred to him by name. After awhile, it was easy to see that he felt uncomfortable, but reacted positively when I'd refer to him as the PLD. As you might expect, he didn't complain at all, but none of the other party members understood when I tried to explain it. That makes sense, because we look at it in the opposite way: calling someone by name is friendly, but referring to someone just by their job sounds kind of cold and impersonal, like they aren't an individual.

The reason there is no "for dummies" guide on how to behave appropriately in Japanese is because of the above example. Using the language politely is one thing, but understanding all the cultural nuances and social rules that govern how they interact requires a lot of effort. You're pretty safe if you stick with canned phrases, but attempting to go deeper carries stronger ramifications if you get it wrong, and they will test you to see how well you understand. To further complicate things, Japanese have very mixed feelings about Westerners trying to appeal to them. From what I've experienced over the years, most of them react positively when you use polite phrases, even if they seem like overkill to us, because it shows that you're making an effort to connect. Some of them react very positively when you follow along with those social norms, because it shows that you have a deeper understanding, but there are those who feel offended by it, because they take their culture to be a very personal thing that they are very uncomfortable with sharing. Then on rare occasion, you'll get a JP player who gets offended if you even type something in Romaji, either for the aforementioned reason, or sometimes even out of fear.

Overall, Japanese players know that we can be very pleasant to get along with, but they also know we are capable of extreme rudeness that goes beyond anything they would even think of expressing to their worst enemies. Some just don't want to take the risk of getting partnered up with a rude NA player, because the odds of one of us being rude are sadly quite high. While a good majority of them understand some of the fundamental cultural differences between us, some of them are too uncomfortable interacting with a culture that is strange to them; conversely, others are excited and eager to jump into our parties and experience our alien mannerisms first-hand. But really, it's the same way with us. There are Westerners who are (over)eager to get all friendly with the Japanese, and then there are those of us who don't want to be bothered even trying to use the Auto-Translate.

In the end, all you have to do is recognize that regardless of culture or region, people's personalities cover the spectrum.
#77 Jul 20 2010 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks TraumaFox! that's exactly what i mean!

I hope one day for a guide that sets a good middle ground where we will have an appealing level of courtesy to the JP players without looking like canned experts who are "faking it" and intruding on their culture. but that sounds like a line defined by opinion that will change from player to player. finding the average middle ground would be a lot of work!
#78 Jul 20 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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This is an excellent thread! Thank you desertbynight.

NA players can learn alot from the politeness and respect of the JP players. And now I can see that the JP players could learn alot from the openess and directness of the NA players. I think freedom of speech is the factor that creates such a distinct cultural difference.

It's always been fascinating to me that video games have become a medium for world cultures to cooperate and share ideas. Sometime it takes a third-party to see the misconceptions of both sides. You have done a service by explaining this so repectfully. Very well done.
#79 Jul 20 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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desertbynight wrote:
Hahaha! This was very funny.
Ok, I want to be fair. I hope you'll enjoy this movie about how italians are compared to other europeans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wv8SqiHCHE



Haha funny. Having never spent any time in Europe, I can only say that the highway driving segment reminded me of Korea. (no offense to our Korean friends, you guys just have a very liberal interpretation of what driving lanes and oncoming traffic mean).
#80 Jul 20 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
In the West, such avoidance would be seen as unhealthy behavior. I wonder what Japanese psychologists talk about with their patients.


I'd imagine they would review it as a positve concept of thought, by being proactive in an hostile enviroment by shutting things down before things can esculate. The active behavior means taking control and making things happen, rather than just adjusting to a situation or waiting for something to simply happen. A concept held by Sun Tzu.
#81 Jul 20 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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TraumaFox wrote:

Example: JP players don't refer to each other by character name in a party, they refer to each other by job and race. Calling someone by name in Japanese carries the implication that you are close friends, so if you aren't, that's considered surprising/rude.


Maybe you can give me some insight into this particular phenomenon. I asked a JP friend about it but she didn't really give me an answer that I could understand regarding this.

Character names usually aren't our personal, first names. It's an identifier for the avatar in the imaginary world. So therefore, it only is used to identify me in a very abstract way.

I don't feel that someone calling me by my in-game name really knows me personally. Now, if someone was calling me by my first name perhaps that would be a little more uncomfortable because then other people who are around would know my first name and maybe start using it with a familiarity that is crossing the line. That might bother me if I hadn't given that person my first name myself, but I don't see how someone calling me by a word that floats above my head is such a personal and intimate situation.

I guess I just don't make the connection between how using an in-game name or a forum posting name is somehow as personal as using someone's personal, first name. Or do JP feel more closely tied to their characters than I think?

Edited, Jul 20th 2010 5:20pm by Torrence
#82 Jul 20 2010 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Awesome post, good to see there were a lot of things I was doing right when pting with JPs in XI. I remember a span of a few days where initially I assumed they were just like "Eh, get the Galka MNK we need a 6th, he'll do" but ended up pting with those same JPs the next couple of nights. After hearing the rumors & such from so many others, I actually felt kinda honored that they wanted to pt with me again, ya know? Silly as that may sound, it was like a pick-me-up...seemed like a good comment on how I played my role and showed some mutual respect. I always showed more respect to people I didn't know in game just as a good way to start things off anyway. But then being the backwards American I am I'll walk up to a LS friend and /slap them to say hello. I'm sure crap like that adds to confusion for others. Similar to JPs, I asked people if I could /check first and /slapped people who /checked without asking 1st. Galkas are sensitive and I felt violated!

I'm learning some new stuff from this post also, like using their player name as a potential sign of disrespect? That's interesting...my guess was using auto-translate just allowed you to say simple things like <Galka><Monk> quicker than typing out someone's name...I assumed it was a matter of convenience...
#83 Jul 20 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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PerrinofSylph wrote:
To be fair, as a NA player since PC release and up until about 2 years ago... I never really encountered "Sorry, JP PT only" until after PS2 release. All the JPs I met were helpful, and when they couldn't communicate via autotranslate they often used point emotes to show directions when players shouted for help. They almost always raised etc...

Somewhere around the time of PS2 release there were alot of people beggin for PL or items or gil. Not all of them were PS2 players, I just think that after PC had been out a while, people were coming into the game expecting everyone to be NA and that it was like other MMO's where it's the norm to spam until people give you stuff for free.

Right around the time I quite XI for good, it was mostly NA players that were ******* me off. The only way I could get merit XP was with my LS Sky Farming or every once in a while XP farming on my THF. NA wouldn't PT with THF, JP wouldn't PT with NA... So I spend a lot of time leveling up SJs, and found that other than a healing role there was no chance what so ever to get a PT at non Prime Time.

My two favorite Party situations were with my friends, or with JP. Both were efficient, minimal downtime, minimal BS, and everyone (even those not UBER equipped) did their job to the best of their ability. Honestly if I could speak Japanese I'd most likely spend 80%ish of my time partying with them instead of my fellow English speakers. So much less drama, much more efficient, open to ideas that benefit the entire group as opposed to OMG super XP (even though the fight took 2 min)...


I have to say, this is in line with my experiences as well. I started day one of NA release, everyone was very nice on my server. Very polite. Had JP players helping out all the time. It wasn't until after the PS2 NA release that things took a turn for the worse. Tons of spammers, beggars, profanity, rudeness, etc. Very unfortunate. I ended up quitting about 1 year after NA release, but the reason was because I was running out of things to do. I had hit level cap about 6 months in, levelled a few other jobs to the 50-65 range, and gave up.
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#84 Jul 20 2010 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
TraumaFox wrote:

Example: JP players don't refer to each other by character name in a party, they refer to each other by job and race. Calling someone by name in Japanese carries the implication that you are close friends, so if you aren't, that's considered surprising/rude.


Maybe you can give me some insight into this particular phenomenon. I asked a JP friend about it but she didn't really give me an answer that I could understand regarding this.


I have two comments about this. While playing with my JP party, they didn't call each other with "knight" or "bard" or other, but with the name. Calling using the role of the player is something that happens in battles only, or while planning an action. On the other side, I remember that when I used their names as they where, they always corrected me and asked me to say the name in a "cute" way, for example adding "-pon" or other suffixes that are "cute". It was too formal to call them with the name as it was. If I did it, it sounded like I was not "close" to them. Ah, now that I think about it, they call with the "role" when they don't know you.

But if you think about it, this happens also in the society. In my wife's family (as any other japanese family) no one calls someone with his name, like "Shigeru", they always use the surname or his role: mother, uncle, etc. I never called my father in law with his name. That is something that only the wife does (maybe, sometimes). On the other side, for the family members that are "closer" to me (for age or "position"...) I always use the name with a little suffix to make it sound like we are close to each other. It's not that anyone could do the same as I do, you must be an old friend or a family member.
#85 Jul 20 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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Not to detract from the topic at hand, but I am curious to know how the FFXI community in general got along. Coming from WMMORPG lotro, where the players aren't nearly as many (or as young) as those of WoW, I'm used to a mature and generally well-mannered society getting along with one another and supporting each other reasonably well (with a few occasional exceptions, of course). When I got into Aion, it was a complete 180; a good many of the people were a variety of rude, elitist, sexist, offensively explicit trolls that would completely ruin the point of it being a multiplayer game. I guess what I'm saying is: Can we expect a fairly sane environment in FFXIV? Or will I be walking into a server with "lulz noobs lrn2play" as my greeting message? :P
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#86 Jul 20 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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Id say 10 to 20% of us got along. Man this is one great topic and ive only read 1/3 of it. I had so so many confrontations with JP, but i really respect the japanese in real life, , **** more than that, I hope uS and jp somehow teamup to become the best of allies at some point in this crazy world. But neway, its just hard with the language barrier, and a big % of both sides will always not respect the other. I extremely look forward to the competition of playing against JP once again and i will go in with a fresh outlook and no grudges held.
#87 Jul 20 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Good
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I love this thread! So much so I registered today just so I can post replies. lol

Regarding calling each other by job names during party, it occurs to me that maybe it is simply easier that way. Since the players' names are spelled in English, a lot of times JP players either don't know how to spell it in katakana, or find it a hassle to switch between Japanese and English inputs; sometimes a player's name is just too **** long! It certainly was the case for me. On the other hand, all the job names can be simplified into one single kanji/katakana, or 3 letters in English. Definitely faster to type in the heat of battle.

But then again, when I party with my LS friends, they still call me by my nicknames, so I guess they only do that with strangers.
#88 Jul 20 2010 at 8:09 PM Rating: Decent
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w34v3r wrote:
a good many of the people were a variety of rude, elitist, sexist, offensively explicit trolls that would completely ruin the point of it being a multiplayer game. I guess what I'm saying is: Can we expect a fairly sane environment in FFXIV? Or will I be walking into a server with "lulz noobs lrn2play" as my greeting message? :P


I'd be lying if I said those players didn't exist in FFXI, but there were many cool, mature, helpful players around as well. You're bound to have some undesirables around in any online game(even those that are respectful players 99% of the time can get frustrated and lose it from time to time while drinking & playing...not that I ever did that) and as big as the hype for FFXIV has been, I'm sure they'll be there. One can hope the high PC requirements and challenging gameplay can weed some of them out early on...
#89 Jul 20 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Would it be helpful if there was an official Square-Enix in-game tutorial which provided a simple, friendly introduction into how to interact with people from other cultures? I know it's stating the obvious, but this could help people who would otherwise stick within their comfort zone to play with a much broader audience.

Or another way could be to run advertising showing people from different parts of the world being polite to each other while co-operating together even though they use different languages (it sounds corny, but you'd kill two birds with one stone - set the community standard for manners and advertise the game at the same time).
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#90 Jul 20 2010 at 9:57 PM Rating: Good
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Dik wrote:
Would it be helpful if there was an official Square-Enix in-game tutorial which provided a simple, friendly introduction into how to interact with people from other cultures? I know it's stating the obvious, but this could help people who would otherwise stick within their comfort zone to play with a much broader audience.

Or another way could be to run advertising showing people from different parts of the world being polite to each other while co-operating together even though they use different languages (it sounds corny, but you'd kill two birds with one stone - set the community standard for manners and advertise the game at the same time).


THey should hire Elmer to give lessons ;)
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#91 Jul 20 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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so what is the best way to refer to JP players you just met? their class/role? their <player name>+ "Kun" or "sama" suffix? (anime watcher here) What are the equivalent of those suffixes for females?

I'm sure after you call someone something wrong they'll correct you and all, but I' rather be in "in the know." Trying to be polite but doing it weirdly might come off well: "at least they are trying" or might be too weird and count worse than "being a typical NA..."

also I'm wicked curious!
#92 Jul 20 2010 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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Usually they only refer to someone by job name during party. If you can type in Japanese it is standard to add -san at the end, i.e. 白さん for WHM. (Sorry anime linguistics don't apply here lol)

In other day-to-day situations though, I think it is okay to refer to someone by their player name. As long as you add -san at the end, no one will consider it rude...But befriend a JP player and you get to call each other all kinds of cutesy names. (Anime linguistics do apply here!)
#93 Jul 20 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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Tweezle120 wrote:
so what is the best way to refer to JP players you just met? their class/role? their <player name>+ "Kun" or "sama" suffix? (anime watcher here) What are the equivalent of those suffixes for females?


-chan is the female version of -kun; both are informal and typically used when referring to people younger or lesser than you. -san is the honorific for people older than you, or for people you would call Mr./Mrs./Ms.. -sama is an even more honorific version of -san, and is used towards people who are of higher rank than you (bosses), people you respect greatly, and is also used when greeting customers if you work in a store.


Tweezle120 wrote:
I'm sure after you call someone something wrong they'll correct you and all, but I' rather be in "in the know." Trying to be polite but doing it weirdly might come off well: "at least they are trying" or might be too weird and count worse than "being a typical NA..."

also I'm wicked curious!


Chances are that if you're mistaken, many JP players may leave it alone unless they are severely offended. The notion of peace and harmony is so strong that many JPs will go out of their way to avoid disagreements, even if it means inconveniencing themselves. There is a strong notion that disagreement is dishonorable to all parties involved. This also has a lot to do with why SE answers many interview questions with phrases such as "We'll see if we can"/"We'll look into whether that is possible"/"We shall consider this as an option". These are all extremely polite versions of "No. Never going to happen." Chances are, any answer that -isn't- a yes, it's safe to assume it's probably a no.

This leads into another reason for the JP only thing; it's not that they can't speak English, it's just that they go through school all day learning the language and still do not feel fully comfortable with it. Have you ever taken a Spanish or French or German (or anything?) class? Would you really want to come home and get on a game and type in that language? Probably not. On top of this disinterest in communicating outside their native tongue, JP players may tend to feel rather embarrassed about any grammatical or spelling mistakes and would rather not try than risk trying and failing.
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#94 Jul 21 2010 at 6:56 AM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
Maybe you can give me some insight into this particular phenomenon. I asked a JP friend about it but she didn't really give me an answer that I could understand regarding this.


Well it's pretty much the way you and desertbynight described. Naturally, JP players who know each other or are in the same linkshell aren't going to refer to each other by job, they're comfortable enough using names. To explain why JP players find their character name to be just as personal as their real name, it's because more often than not they are 'in character'. That's not to say they're all hardcore roleplayers, but within the context of the game world, your character's name is your name. Their character wouldn't refer to another character by first name any sooner than the players would in the real world. In parties, it's sometimes just more efficient to refer to jobs than typing out whole names, especially because the names are Romanized, but it also makes it clear who instructions are intended for without having to look up at the screen to see whose name belongs to what job. Outside of parties, a job name isn't enough to refer to someone specific when you're standing around Whitegate, so then they pull out the names and use honorifics as needed.

In the Western world, we're used to talking to people on a first name basis, and we usually only pull out Mr./Mrs. in formal situations or when talking to superiors. In the East, being on a first name basis is a much more privileged thing, so it works the other way around. Honorifics are fine, but I think because XI does not include last names, JP players view their character name as their first name, which you would never address someone by unless you two were comfortable enough with each other to do so. That's not to say younger generations aren't overly friendly and won't let you call them <name>-chan in a heartbeat, but then we're also looking at gender differences too (girls are more likely to find it cute and acceptable than guys). And perhaps you've noticed that Taru and Mithra players prefer to be called by cutesy names more often than others? There's that 'in character' thing again.

Since XIV has last names, I'm willing to bet it will be perfectly acceptable to refer to JP players you've just met as <last name>-san. Of course referring to people by class would still be just as acceptable. It's best to take the better-safe-than-sorry approach with address; if you refer to someone by first name, they typically won't tell you if they find it uncomfortable and would prefer proper address, but if you refer to someone formally, they'll tell you if it's okay to use their first name or a friendly honorific instead. It would be rare to hear "That's Mr. <name> to you, pal!" from a Japanese, unless they're super-offended for some reason. But then, much like in the West, it's more often the older generations that are sticklers for proper address and respect, and younger generations are more lax about it (with exceptions on both sides, of course).
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