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Add-on usage within FFXIVFollow

#1 Jul 23 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Default
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So many people need Add-on's in the games they play. From an Auction House tracker, a spell timer and warning system, to an automated node filled mini maps that show where all the farming locations and unveiled map before you even explore the section you are in.

Is there any word on if Add-ons will be allowed in FFXIV? Personally in WoW I went several years without using them, but after trying a few I realized just how much they could help (even if some were unfair in terms of PvP or exploration.) People also become dependent on them, IMO losing some of the skill needed to play the game.

In terms lets say you research each AH for several weeks, looking up and writing down crafting materials, list the items at the average selling rate only to find out that your friend DLed a program that in 2 minutes to install just did the same work you spent weeks researching because it was in a database so no real work done on his part or anyone besides the causal gathering of info from multiple users. He (or She) then cut your prices by 8% and sold everything while yours expired.
#2 Jul 23 2010 at 10:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure websites will be released that contain that information, but I think SE still holds the policy on no outside programs. But you can try asking around the LS boards at http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/ or one of the RPers LS boards. http://www.ffxiv-roleplayers.com/forum/index.php has some interesting stuff. Couldn't find anything concerning 3rd party programs myself, but I'm sure someone will bring up the subject.


-mathias179



Edited, Jul 24th 2010 1:04am by mathias179
#3 Jul 23 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Decent
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If they allow publicly created add-ons, will that not lead to PC users eventually having an advantage
over PS3 users ? WOW add-ons do some amazing stuff. If eventually PS3 users just can't compete with pc users in endgame
events and link shells start announcing only players with heal-bot5000 and DPSking ver20.7can join thier end games shells thier will be alot of ****** off ps3 users.
#4 Jul 24 2010 at 1:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I used add-ons in wow but sparingly and never really understood why people relied on them so much - how much of the game are you really going play for yourself?

I also just had the thought that if a game relies on add-ons or a community demands them as mandatory for certain encounters, isn't that game a little broken?
#5 Jul 24 2010 at 2:41 AM Rating: Good
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I admit that I ran my fair share of addons in WoW; Cartographer and Auctioneer were practically mandatory. AtlasLoot was nice. Omen, Necrosis (Warlock), and Hot Streak (Mage) were very helpful, as was QuestHelper and Recount.

I -would- say that I think XIV should allow addon support, -but- the big problem with that is that it really puts PC players at an advantage over PS3 players. Even if an intangible advantage (like Cartographer to view full maps or Auctioneer for easy auction listings), it is still an advantage nonetheless.

The only way I'd be in favor of addons for FFXIV is if PS3 players and PC players both had access to all of the same addons.
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#6 Jul 24 2010 at 3:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I felt almost bad using QuestHelper in WoW it made the game so much more easier...

Wait, no I didn't. :)

I'm going to assume that SE might handhold under the guildleve system and leave the harder stuff to the hardcore players.

I think SE will be intolerant of any third party add-ons. I would be very surprised if they accepted them.

The only thing I would want anyway is a parser. I didn't really want QuestHelper and all the other stuff until I was on my second and third characters. Eh. :/
#7 Jul 24 2010 at 3:58 AM Rating: Default
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Its never going to happen, look how long it took for them to let us play FFXI windowed.

I'm pretty glad its not going to happen aswell, WOW is rediculously easy because of the add ons.

I would use for things like mining points etc. for crafts, but the good thing about XI is an experienced miner would know these locations off by heart and you still get your advantage only you put the effort into learning it.

Edited, Jul 24th 2010 5:59am by djbenny
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#8 Jul 24 2010 at 4:01 AM Rating: Default
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It would be best if they were just disallowed. I've seen WoW running with "required" add-ons and it was a horrible mess that approached EVE Online in terms of clutter and UI over complexity.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#9 Jul 24 2010 at 4:04 AM Rating: Decent
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FFXI didn't allow any addons at all, did it? If it did, I wasn't aware of it. It was much more interesting playing a class like a Ranger and having to learn how much damage I could get away with doing without pulling aggro off the tank. It just felt more involved, instead of just watching a bar and making sure I don't go higher than the tank, like all the mandatory threat meters in WoW.

Obviously there are some that are just helpful though that vary from class to class. Personally I don't think they'll allow anything, especially with the game being released on PS3 too.
#10 Jul 24 2010 at 4:20 AM Rating: Default
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Na there was nothing in FFXI at all.
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#11 Jul 24 2010 at 5:55 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, FFXI had plenty of addons -- they just weren't legal. Most of them ran (or run?) through Windower and are generally client-side. They added a bunch of stuff like seeing other player's TP and so on. I don't know much about them -- I haven't played XI in 4 years.

SE probably won't allow add-ons using the PS3 as an excuse for being lazy. I predict that within the first six months -- sooner if the game doesn't launch with customizable keyboard settings and a real mouselook -- there will be a client-side addon that becomes the new windower. The PC users will use it to a degree that SE won't be able to ban its users because of the loss of revenue.... just like Windower.

Add-ons are the least of the PS3 user's problems. No addon will stop a ****** from dying in a fire if he won't move. I'm sure there will be plenty of competitive PC players out there. But just wait until they catch up to the PC players and are stonewalled from endgame companies because they don't have access to Ventrillo.....

Edited, Jul 24th 2010 7:59am by mechaboydx
#12 Jul 24 2010 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
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I certainly hope they maintain their strict policy. They might have been helpful once, but I lost my taste of them the last time I played WoW. Especially with the so called gear score counting one.
#13 Jul 24 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Assumed we were talking about legal ones!

Even the number of illegal ones wasn't in the same universe never mind league as WOW,

I used windower along with the TP one, that was it though - I don't feel it gave me an unfair advantage but it benefited those I partied with greatly, much more than it did myself.
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#14 Jul 24 2010 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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I...I like not having all that help. I like when I level and I *ding* my LS they all cheer, and they really do! It's a big deal and it feels good. I enjoy the struggle. I like meeting people who are at a higher level than me. I enjoy helping those lower. *shrugs* I'd not blame you for using things like that, but they're just not for me. Nope, I like roughing it. Call me a grinder, or whatever, but...well...you know what, sure, I'm a grinder. I'm a hard-nosed, pint-sized, wand-packing, bundle of bust-ya-****, grinder, and I couldn't be happier.

Now, what I would like is a program that lets me see what my friends are up to when they're playing and I'm not. Or a IM program where I can chat in the LS while I'm offline.
#15 Jul 24 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I levelled to 80 in WoW in less than a month as a new player, and my fastest levelling was 40-80; simply because I was introduced to QuestHelper. Before that I was having fun, vaguely immersed in the story, loving the instances and levelling to the next one. Then when I got QuestHelper, it just became grind quest, next, grind quest, next...you could argue that it was always that but when the challenge was there, it was at least a little more fun. Oh, and since WoTLK was about to be launched, absolutely noone bothered with the BC instances-to this day I've never experienced one (not that it matters, I quit WoW after 2 months-1 month at cap-anyway), this just signalled to me that people really didn't care about the instances, ie. the parts which were most fun about my levelling to that point, and that it was really all just a boring grind for the best gear. I don't think I did any group quests again until the boring level 80 'rinse and repeat' instances.

Seeing as GuildLeves have arrows to your objectives (I assume 90% of the time, though I read something about crafting ones being different in that you have to search out certain NPCs with no arrow help), I can see that becoming an issue here too; but this game has something that WoW doesn't, in that the Leves are tiered in diffuculty, so it wont just be follow arrow, faceroll, next, you'll actually be thinking about everything you're doing.

As far as other add-ons, Recount was useful but also added an air of elitism between players which I didn't appreciate at all. AtlasLoot was a very useful tool. Flight timer addons were great too. Addons that showed your combo points and cooldowns were all useful.

Basically, I think addons can be useful, but a good mmo should be able to negate the need for them. If they make the UI customisable, allow you to change/hide which stats and attack numbers are visible etc, then there really is no need for addons. I also feel that damage counters are unneccessary in this game because the emphasis should be on a team working together and feeling they achieved something rather than a team working together until the end and then dissecting whether or not everyone was useful enough for next time.

Edited, Jul 24th 2010 10:55am by Tealtraum
#16 Jul 24 2010 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I also just had the thought that if a game relies on add-ons or a community demands them as mandatory for certain encounters, isn't that game a little broken?


I highly agree with you!

#17 Jul 24 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Default
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Synopsis (For those of you with short attention spans): Addons = unnecessary w/ few exceptions, WoW = Bad Players in its current state, FFXI = Players actually know what to do, Cookies > MMOs.

Addons are a pain in the ***. I never liked finding them, updating them, rearranging my UI, keeping up with the best versions of what was available, adjusting the overlapping features of many, having specialized addons for various classes, etc.

With WoW, you could boil down you addon usage to a Boss mod of some sort, a UI (action bars) mod, questhelper, and your necessary class addon. But if Blizzard had done their job right the first time, you wouldn't need any of these things. The addons that felt truly necessary were few and far between. The rest were just novelty (like playing the Benny Hill music everytime I summoned Army of the Dead. lol).

Most of them are a crutch that allow you to be lazy and not learn fight mechanics. The more addons that became "necessary" in WoW, the worse and worse the raiding player base got, but then again, I was there for the AQ40, Naxx40, and Sunwell pre-nerf, so I can remember when Blizzard didn't hold your hand and baby step you through every encounter. The only thing I would've ever wanted for FFXI was a quest tracker to hunt down NPCs easier, and possibly an addon to see other party members' TP. The rest of that game worked just fine without addons, and the quality of the players was 1000x higher than those in WoW. In FFXI people came prepared, knew the fights, and stayed alert rather than riding coattails. Part of that also had to do with their being a much smaller margin of error in FFXI, and dying meant a lot more. I like that.

Just so everyone has a frame of reference when I say quality of players, I played FFXI during it's first 1 1/2 yrs of U.S. release (75Drk retired, Ramuh server), WoW from launch until February of this year (Killed the Lich King and quit. That game turned to garbage with WotLK.), and since February I've been casually playing Warhammer and FFXI again, oh and EATING COOKIES BECAUSE THEY MAKE MY BELLY GO NOM NOM NOM DELICIOUS! (And you thought I was gonna skip the cookies.)
#18 Jul 24 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I can't find anything wrong with his theory on cookies. Seems solid to me.
#19 Jul 24 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Let's not blame add-ons for easy leveling in WoW. Even before I discovered Questhelper (which helped with my first and second 80s, but I stopped using it after that cuz I didn't need it), leveling was not difficult. It's stupidly easy to level in WoW, all add ons aside. I use quite a few addons for raiding that don't help me in leveling.

However, certain addons HAVE ruined that game. I digress. This is has been discussed in other threads a few times already. SE will likely not tolerate 3rd party addons but will be forced, as has been said, to turn a blind eye to the new "windower". The ability to fix problems with UI or streamline things or make things in the game a bit simpler (which is what most of the FFXI plugins for windowers did) are fine. Anything that becomes "mandatory" for endgame events (or any kind of event for that matter) is bad and will eventually break or ruin the experience players have. (See: Gearscore).
#20 Jul 24 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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dalm wrote:
Let's not blame add-ons for easy leveling in WoW. Even before I discovered Questhelper (which helped with my first and second 80s, but I stopped using it after that cuz I didn't need it), leveling was not difficult. It's stupidly easy to level in WoW, all add ons aside. I use quite a few addons for raiding that don't help me in leveling.

However, certain addons HAVE ruined that game. I digress. This is has been discussed in other threads a few times already. SE will likely not tolerate 3rd party addons but will be forced, as has been said, to turn a blind eye to the new "windower". The ability to fix problems with UI or streamline things or make things in the game a bit simpler (which is what most of the FFXI plugins for windowers did) are fine. Anything that becomes "mandatory" for endgame events (or any kind of event for that matter) is bad and will eventually break or ruin the experience players have. (See: Gearscore).


I agree with pretty much all of that. Leveling was a joke at launch too if you came from playing FFXI. My gf and I duo grinded to 60 in around 3-4 weeks. By the time WotLK came around, we could go from 1-80 in 1-2 weeks.

Gearscore never affected me. If a guild used gearscore as one of their recruiting requirements, then no one in that guild had a high enough gearscore to be in our guild. It was a tool for newcomers trying to establish themselves and I never saw it successfully make a group/guild for anything.

Addons really are just crutches. If a game never has them, then you never miss them. If FFXI had allowed them, there would probably be tons of them that people would have been drawn to, but you can't miss what you never had. I look forward to not having to deal with them and playing the game the way SE intended it to be played.
#21 Jul 24 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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The nice thing about no add-ons is that everyone is playing the exact same game. With a standardized base to judge from it's easier to acknowledge someone's skill at something they do well.

The tank that never loses aggro? That's a subtle skill someone can take pride in, unless it gets "outsourced" to an add-on. Then there's just a little less of the game to learn and take pride in mastering. Add-ons help smooth over the small complexities of the game, which makes it easier for some people, but makes it less satisfying to me. They may not want to "bother" with those small complexities, measuring their success and satisfaction more by progress, but for me the journey is why I'm there, not the destination.
#22 Jul 24 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I think addons are an excellent way for developers to get feedback and ideas from their players. WoW has changed its UI for the better because blizz got some very good ideas from some smart players that made addons. Whatever you have to say about some of it's more prolific addons (which ultimately is personal preference) it has been a benefit to the game.

However, FFXI didn't have addons because sony didn't allow addons on the PS2 so there would have been a disparity between PC and PS2 players...the same thing goes with FFXIV. It just wont happen...a shame, in my opinion.
#23 Jul 24 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aoroi wrote:
So many people need Add-on's in the games they play.


I can't believe I just read this... Smiley: disappointed
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#24 Jul 24 2010 at 8:38 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:

I can't believe I just read this... Smiley: disappointed


Yea, but I had to type it. It seems true to me, many players (on WoW) freak out when an update is applied and the addons are turned off, or as one occasion, all of them were disabled and were not turned back on for like most of the day. Many people freaked and even in the guild several stopped playing (just farmed) until they turned them back on or got the updates. I just do not get it. Ok so your addon wont warn you when the tank is at 50% health, your poisoned, and the off tank has max threat? Tuff its called /panic /chain-heal.

While I like some of the addons, as a feature I would like to see a damage calculator, as a tanker it is nice to know how much hate I can spread.
#25 Jul 24 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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Sidenote:

Futzbucket wrote:
I like when I level and I *ding* my LS they all cheer, and they really do!


There were two addons in WoW that I hated. I mean hated, hated, HATED.

The one was the one that automatically announced to your entire guild every time you leveled up. Every 10 levels is one thing; we'll see the achievement and all. I do not give a @#%^ that you just hit level 2. Or 3. Or 4. Or 5. Or 6.... That sh*t is spam. Cut it out.

The other was the one that automatically said grats/congrats (or worse, "GRATZ!!") whenever anyone said the word "ding", regardless of the context. I mentioned in one guild once that I accidentally got a ding in my car and four people congratulated me. You know, if someone gets something and you want to say congrats to them, then fine. Say it. But getting an addon to say grats because you can't be bothered to say it yourself is at best lazy and at worst rude.

EDIT: Minor pet peeve - WinterTime. I don't like PvP. I don't care about Wintergrasp. I don't care when it's starting.

Edited, Jul 24th 2010 11:19pm by Mikhalia
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#26 Jul 24 2010 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
Mikhalia wrote:
Sidenote:

Futzbucket wrote:
I like when I level and I *ding* my LS they all cheer, and they really do!


There were two addons in WoW that I hated. I mean hated, hated, HATED.

The one was the one that automatically announced to your entire guild every time you leveled up. Every 10 levels is one thing; we'll see the achievement and all. I do not give a @#%^ that you just hit level 2. Or 3. Or 4. Or 5. Or 6.... That sh*t is spam. Cut it out.

The other was the one that automatically said grats/congrats (or worse, "GRATZ!!") whenever anyone said the word "ding", regardless of the context. I mentioned in one guild once that I accidentally got a ding in my car and four people congratulated me. You know, if someone gets something and you want to say congrats to them, then fine. Say it. But getting an addon to say grats because you can't be bothered to say it yourself is at best lazy and at worst rude.

EDIT: Minor pet peeve - WinterTime. I don't like PvP. I don't care about Wintergrasp. I don't care when it's starting.

Edited, Jul 24th 2010 11:19pm by Mikhalia



Lol, EQ2 had the exact same thing with Guilds auto-announcing levels and "Congrats!" bots. I found it to be pretty lazy and shallow. The bots, rather. The auto announce was an editable part of the game.

Your guild leaders could decide which levels/ranges the game would announce. that was nice. Every 5 levels seemed ok with me.
#27 Jul 24 2010 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I think S-E has learned a thing or two from Windower. The Utsusemi shadow counter alone is a perfect example of that. The distance text patch was meh though. I honestly hope we don't need tools to play FFXIV.
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