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ATI mobility HD5870 -vs- GeForce® GTX 480MFollow

#1 Jul 25 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Default
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O.k. so after reading countless threads I'm still unclear on something. I'm seeing SS of ATI beating GeForce but I'm also hearing that the benchmark is skewed because INGAME it's a whole 'nother story. Can I get a beta tester or someone who's actually playing the game on high res on a LAPTOP please guide me in my decision? Before you even ask, yes, it must be a laptop so I can play at work and home.
#2 Jul 25 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dietriot wrote:

O.k. so after reading countless threads I'm still unclear on something. I'm seeing SS of ATI beating GeForce but I'm also hearing that the benchmark is skewed because INGAME it's a whole 'nother story. Can I get a beta tester or someone who's actually playing the game on high res on a LAPTOP please guide me in my decision? Before you even ask, yes, it must be a laptop so I can play at work and home.


1. People in the beta aren't allowed to give any info that deals with the beta.

2. You should have posted in the sticky.
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#3 Jul 25 2010 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Dietriot wrote:
I'm seeing SS of ATI beating GeForce but I'm also hearing that the benchmark is skewed because INGAME it's a whole 'nother story.
Why would it be skewed? The benchmark is in-game.
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#4 Jul 25 2010 at 6:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm saying it's skewed because of the conflicting information I'm receiving about the benchmark showing ATI dominating but on forums where people who are playing are sharing they are saying that ingame the GeForce GTX 200 and 400 series are out performing ATI 5000 series. Which would lead me to believe that the score on the benchmark is misleading. I'm not very computer savvy but I could see where if FF and nVidia are working hand in hand with this project that somehow some way they would give GeForce cards the advantage ingame. I'm just looking for people who can shed some light onto all of this for me.


P.S. Sorry about not posting it in the sticky.. I'm also not very forum savvy.
#5 Jul 25 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Default
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My guess is because they are working hand in hand the drivers for the Nvidia cards are more optimized right now than the ATI cards, that being said, once the game is released and ATI can update their drivers I'm sure we'll see ATI out preform the Nvidia cards.
#6geotrick, Posted: Jul 25 2010 at 10:37 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol bunny your an idiot
#7 Jul 26 2010 at 2:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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geotrick wrote:
lol bunny your an idiot


well that about raps up this post.




*you're
*wraps

Next time you consider calling someone else an idiot, proofread.

Furthermore, he made a perfectly reasonable point. The companies who slap "Plays best on nVidia" logos on their games tend to be optimized for nVidia in early versions. nVidia's most recent drivers are dated 2010/07/19 (a week ago) The 10.6 CCC and its associated driver are dated 2010/06/16; they're roughly a month old and have not yet been optimized for FFXIV. Once the game hits its retail release, ATI will have the chance to make any driver modifications necessary to release new drivers, which would obviously affect performance.

So in addition to proofreading, next time you call someone else an idiot, try a counterpoint or two as well.
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#8 Jul 26 2010 at 6:51 AM Rating: Good
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i7 860 and Radeon 5850 running Windows 7 64-bit benchmarked 4036 at 1080 and around 5700 at 720.

Edited, Jul 26th 2010 9:52am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#9 Jul 26 2010 at 7:16 AM Rating: Default
Edited by bsphil
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Lobivopis wrote:
i7 860 and Radeon 5850 running Windows 7 64-bit benchmarked 4036 at 1080 and around 5700 at 720.

Edited, Jul 26th 2010 9:52am by Lobivopis
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#10 Jul 26 2010 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand why people on these boards have to be such *** holes (split to avoid filter) to each other. Seriously. This thread is a perfect example. I'm sorry I can't help with the issue this thread was created for.

Edited, Jul 26th 2010 9:52am by mithrandrk
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#11 Jul 26 2010 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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I think to post on any internet forum you need to have somewhat of a thick skin. Trolls will be trolls, and asshats will be asshats.

That being said, there are some legitimate reasons for being frustrated with some of the posts here. There are several sticky's at the top that one should acquaint oneself with before clicking that New Subject link.
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#12geotrick, Posted: Jul 26 2010 at 10:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) my god your. raps. are you kidding. Thx for perfecting my typing. i must be an idiot myself to not spelling it the correct way. Well i be the fail at english now
#13 Jul 26 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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geotrick wrote:
his post said that ATI will be better than nvidia when drivers come out. Kind of a strange statement. How do you know?
ATi already performs better than nVidia in FFXIV.

geotrick wrote:
Good bye my spelling professor.
geotrick wrote:
Implying that I'm old enough to be in college.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#14 Jul 26 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Default
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Quote from another forum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't think of a time (ever) where an Nvidia made game been outperformed by an equivalent ati card lol soo... Also, currently ATI cards are severely under performing the Nvidia counterpart in game. There's a huge difference between the benchmark and actually playing the game. I'm making an educated suggestion that based on the developers and the power of the cards, nvidia will be the better option. Something else to consider is that while the 5870 and the GTX 480 are almost equal everywhere pre-DX11, should FFXIV ever get upgraded to DX11 (which there's speculation about and not completely unreasonable given their current situation) the Nvidia cards will whoop all over the 5870. It's never been brought up in discussion the precedence in DX9, where alot of the misconceptions can be drawn. In any power battles in the past it's been pure discussion of card vs card. In DX9, however, the power between the 5870 and the GTX 480 is very close and the cards themselves aren't made for DX9 anyways. DX9 uses fixed pixel pipelines instead of programmable stream processors.

Here's some information you all should look at.

The difference between DX9 and DX10 (DX11 is essentially DX10 with tesselation). The video is a bit dated and some of the speculation about developers is a bit inaccurate, but the video is more important for the coverage of DX10 features.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7aPvedU7cI[/media]

This second video is to compare the performance of DX11 performance between the GTX 480 and the HD5870 (where the power of the cards really is defined)
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XdsEblVhkc[/media]

You can see the GTX 480 is a much stronger card. ~50% FPS better overall in tessellated areas.

Perhaps this will clear up some of the misconceptions here on the forums about the video card war. But, it's still possible the 5870 might be a close DX9 performer, perhaps a bit better, but there hasn't been a game (at least not that I know of) where an ATI equivalent card has outperformed an Nvidia card where Nvidia is endorsing the project.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If ATI is definitely going to be better why am I finding posts like this on other forums? Thoughts on the videos would be helpful.
#15 Jul 26 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Because the GTX 480 itself is already a much more powerful card. I'm talking with two GPUs roughly equivalent power elsewhere, the ATi is trending to perform better.



Edited, Jul 26th 2010 11:39am by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#16 Jul 26 2010 at 10:50 AM Rating: Default
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#17 Jul 27 2010 at 3:56 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
i7 860 and Radeon 5850 running Windows 7 64-bit benchmarked 4036 at 1080 and around 5700 at 720.

Edited, Jul 26th 2010 9:52am by Lobivopis
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Mikhalia wrote:




Furthermore, he made a perfectly reasonable point. The companies who slap "Plays best on nVidia" logos on their games tend to be optimized for nVidia in early versions. nVidia's most recent drivers are dated 2010/07/19 (a week ago) The 10.6 CCC and its associated driver are dated 2010/06/16; they're roughly a month old and have not yet been optimized for FFXIV. Once the game hits its retail release, ATI will have the chance to make any driver modifications necessary to release new drivers, which would obviously affect performance.



Dietriot wrote:

I'm saying it's skewed because of the conflicting information I'm receiving about the benchmark showing ATI dominating but on forums where people who are playing are sharing they are saying that ingame the GeForce GTX 200 and 400 series are out performing ATI 5000 series. Which would lead me to believe that the score on the benchmark is misleading. I'm not very computer savvy but I could see where if FF and nVidia are working hand in hand with this project that somehow some way they would give GeForce cards the advantage ingame. I'm just looking for people who can shed some light onto all of this for me.








Edited, Jul 27th 2010 6:58am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#18 Jul 27 2010 at 4:05 AM Rating: Good
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Dietriot wrote:
Quote from another forum
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't think of a time (ever) where an Nvidia made game been outperformed by an equivalent ati card lol soo... Also, currently ATI cards are severely under performing the Nvidia counterpart in game. There's a huge difference between the benchmark and actually playing the game. I'm making an educated suggestion that based on the developers and the power of the cards, nvidia will be the better option. Something else to consider is that while the 5870 and the GTX 480 are almost equal everywhere pre-DX11, should FFXIV ever get upgraded to DX11 (which there's speculation about and not completely unreasonable given their current situation) the Nvidia cards will whoop all over the 5870. It's never been brought up in discussion the precedence in DX9, where alot of the misconceptions can be drawn. In any power battles in the past it's been pure discussion of card vs card. In DX9, however, the power between the 5870 and the GTX 480 is very close and the cards themselves aren't made for DX9 anyways. DX9 uses fixed pixel pipelines instead of programmable stream processors.

Here's some information you all should look at.

The difference between DX9 and DX10 (DX11 is essentially DX10 with tesselation). The video is a bit dated and some of the speculation about developers is a bit inaccurate, but the video is more important for the coverage of DX10 features.



Nvidia only outperforms ATI in DirectX 11 games with heavy use of tessellation, which FFXIV doesn't use. If they upgrade to DirectX 11 at some point in the future proper implementation of tessellation would require them to rebuild all the models and terrain in the game. Simply tessellating existing geometry would look pretty bad. Try taking a polygon mesh into Maya or Lightwave or whatever and turning on subdivision surfaces and you'll get an idea of this.

I can't really see them doing that. It's unlikely that they will want to have two entirely different sets of geometry for the PC and PS3 versions of the game.


EDIT: Well if the character and monster models were originally Catmull-Clark subdivision surface models (essentially the standard for subdivision surfaces in 3D modeling programs) before being converted into meshes used by the game they could probably just go back to those. It's possible to do hardware tessellated Catmull-Clark surfaces in DirectX-11

EDIT: If the original geometry are bezier patch objects or nurbs objects (in all likelihood they probably use nurbs, simple bezier patches or subdivision surfaces for some things and polygons for others depending on what works best for they are modeling) those can also be tessellated in hardware in DirectX 11. However implementing curved surfaces in a game engine that only supports triangles would require some rewriting of the engine, possibly a complete rewrite.


And also, by the time any of this actually happened the current generation of graphics cards would be long obsolete. So arguing that a current Nvidia card could beat a current ATI card on a game 3 years from now is sort of pointless.

Edited, Jul 28th 2010 8:26pm by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
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