Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

Beginner's DD Class PlightFollow

#1 Jul 25 2010 at 6:33 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
My roommate is trying to get me into this game and though I am still unsure if I will like the gameplay since this is my first encounter with a RPG online that puts heavy emphasis on cooldown counters and what not, I wanted to talk about a job class that is fit for me.

I hope I dont start to much of a debate because I am sure there is controversy and criticism about people obsessed with DD but I wanted to which class has the following attributes:
-Best DPM
-Can Solo
-All about Bossing

My roommate tells me that damage per minute doesn't even come into play in this type of game but I would still like to hear some speculation on which class does more damage overtime in boss fights. For example, a class that does a lot of damage in big hits compared to a fast melee attacker that does smaller hits a lot faster.

Any information to enlighten a potential new player would be most appreciated!
#2 Jul 25 2010 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
****
5,684 posts
people will probably be able to answer this question better after the game actually comes out.
____________________________
Almalieque wrote:
I admit that I was wrong

God bless Lili St. Cyr
#3 Jul 25 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
*
96 posts
Sadly there's still not enough information to know any of that since there's no "end game content" in the beta. All classes seem to solo fine for right now, each has a way of health regen in battle, but beyond that again sadly no one knows.
#4 Jul 25 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
I am sure but I was wondering what the speculation was. My roommate was a former FFXI player and she speculated the Pugilist or the Lancer would be good choices for me.
#5 Jul 25 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
*
96 posts
That's the strange part about the "Job System" right now, all the classes have healing abilities, all have DD abilities and all have some sort of Tank ability so again there's just not enough information to know which "class" really plays what role.
#6 Jul 25 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
BunnyFufinator wrote:
That's the strange part about the "Job System" right now, all the classes have healing abilities, all have DD abilities and all have some sort of Tank ability so again there's just not enough information to know which "class" really plays what role.


My roommate was under the impression that the classes of FFXIV were just remakes with different titles of the classes from FFXI. Is this true or is the future of this game not as clear?
#7 Jul 25 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
*
96 posts
From the little that's known right now it does not appear that way.
#8 Jul 25 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
BunnyFufinator wrote:
From the little that's known right now it does not appear that way.


Well thankyou for the input guess I will have to wait for the game to come out or more info from beta players lol
#9 Jul 25 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
398 posts
Well the wonderfull thing about the system they are useing is that if you find one class isn't to your likeing just pick up a new weapon and give it a go.
#10 Jul 25 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
zurinadrg wrote:
Well the wonderfull thing about the system they are useing is that if you find one class isn't to your likeing just pick up a new weapon and give it a go.


Does the weapon really determine that much about the class?
#11 Jul 25 2010 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
*
96 posts
Yes, as its understood, the weapon you equip determines your "class" so changing classes right now is as simple as changing weapons.
#12 Jul 25 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
BunnyFufinator wrote:
Yes, as its understood, the weapon you equip determines your "class" so changing classes right now is as simple as changing weapons.


Well this is a relief because I would hate to start and find out im in the wrong class! This makes it a lot more convenient and versatile.
#13 Jul 25 2010 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
AtomicTyson wrote:
BunnyFufinator wrote:
That's the strange part about the "Job System" right now, all the classes have healing abilities, all have DD abilities and all have some sort of Tank ability so again there's just not enough information to know which "class" really plays what role.


My roommate was under the impression that the classes of FFXIV were just remakes with different titles of the classes from FFXI. Is this true or is the future of this game not as clear?


No, that statement could not be any less correct. Many old abilities have been re designed and given to some of the new classes, but pretty much without exception any similarities are minor. A pugilist, for example is sort of like a Thief, and sort of like a Monk, but lacks many of the key features of those classes. Trick Attack, for example, has been renamed "Collusion" and it's a Lancer ability. Lancers user pole arms, but otherwise, aren't really like Dragoons, and so on.

Because of the way that the armory system works, you may eventually be able to put together a character that plays almost exactly like a certain class from FFXI, but in order to do that you'll have to learn many different classes and combine their abilities together. It's also possible that you will never be able to come close to the abilities of your favorite FFXI class. The game may have some of the same flavors and ingredients from FFXI, but it's a completely different dish.

Edited, Jul 25th 2010 9:03pm by KarlHungis
#14 Jul 25 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
**
421 posts
AtomicTyson wrote:
-Best DPM

Will be debated, pinned down and further debated depending on armor and ability builds, likely changing from update to update if it's anything like XI.

Quote:
-Can Solo

All of the war/magic disciple classes will be able to solo, some will have an easier time then others but for the moment from what is out there Pugilist is what you may be looking for.

Quote:
-All about Bossing

Pick a mage/support class, you can boss your party around because they need you. A serious answer would be that most of the classes will have their roles to fill for bosses, pick and play a job that appeals to you that you can be happy with.

As far as speculation over which jobs will pull ahead you'll have to account for the various situations, group vs group, group vs large monster, solo survivability etc etc etc...
#15 Jul 25 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Excellent
*
205 posts
From the videos that we've seen FFXIV differs from FFXI because it is no longer an auto-attack game so I guess it would depend on how fast you mash your buttons and how much action gauge or bar you have. You'd also have to take into consideration how much damage you are doing as well. If you're hitting for 1-2 dmg every second versus 10 every 1.5 second you're better off with the 10 every 1.5 because doubling the 1-2 falls short.

Remember this game doesn't have "JOBS" anymore, it's basically a general direction. If you look at the abilities of what SE has on their website regarding these categories you'll find that each category has it's own strange abilities to it. If you want a Dark Knight from FFXI, you'd have to delve into the thaumaturge for some aspects of it, maurauder, gladiator, and what not now. I wouldn't necessarily say that the cookie cutter build is gone, but it's much more vague.
____________________________
It's not who we are, but what we do that define us. - Batman Begins
[ffxivsig]477658[/ffxivsig]
#16 Jul 25 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
20 posts
The role of DD in a party is the only time I would consider DPM/DPS as a factor in my build. In which case the Pugilist and Marauder will likely deal equal damage over time, the Pug smaller but quicker damage and the Mar large heavy blows.

For me the Lancer appears to work best and could be a good damage dealer based on other subs that you level. I can see the Lancer being a very good soloing class. That may be based on my FFXI experience though. I forsee a very possible Drg/Whm and a Drg/Thf style hybrid.

With all that nonsense being said, the goal is for a party to stay alive. Pace, patients and strategy will always beat brute force. You want your character to make your team better. Too much damage and your party cannot control the mob(s), everyone dies. Although raging out to finish a mob can be fun :)

Even soloing, the goal is for you to stay alive more than it is to deal damage quickily. You could deal 80 DPM, but if you take on 100 DPM then you lose. Dealing a little less can mean more, if it keeps you alive. Deal 70 DPM and only take on 60 DPM, and you win every time.

I know I make it sound trivial, but in my mind those are the basics, how do you manipulate them to excell, and still enjoy the game...


#17 Jul 25 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
15 posts
KarlHungis wrote:
AtomicTyson wrote:
BunnyFufinator wrote:
That's the strange part about the "Job System" right now, all the classes have healing abilities, all have DD abilities and all have some sort of Tank ability so again there's just not enough information to know which "class" really plays what role.


My roommate was under the impression that the classes of FFXIV were just remakes with different titles of the classes from FFXI. Is this true or is the future of this game not as clear?


No, that statement could not be any less correct. Many old abilities have been re designed and given to some of the new classes, but pretty much without exception any similarities are minor. A pugilist, for example is sort of like a Thief, and sort of like a Monk, but lacks many of the key features of those classes. Trick Attack, for example, has been renamed "Collusion" and it's a Lancer ability. Lancers user pole arms, but otherwise, aren't really like Dragoons, and so on.

Because of the way that the armory system works, you may eventually be able to put together a character that plays almost exactly like a certain class from FFXI, but in order to do that you'll have to learn many different classes and combine their abilities together. It's also possible that you will never be able to come close to the abilities of your favorite FFXI class. The game may have some of the same flavors and ingredients from FFXI, but it's a completely different dish.

Edited, Jul 25th 2010 9:03pm by KarlHungis


Hello all. this is the confused "atomic tysons" roommate lol i was not telling him they are exactly like the old jobs. from what i saw on ffxiv, all i meant was alot of the same weapon skills are still used. which is awesome to me. i know there are going to be updates and different abilities for sure. all my roomie really wanted to know i guess was is this going to be a slow paced game? ff is naturally a slow game, to me. but do you think its going to suck *** to solo as much in xi?
#18 Jul 25 2010 at 7:20 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
Halphdane wrote:
The role of DD in a party is the only time I would consider DPM/DPS as a factor in my build. In which case the Pugilist and Marauder will likely deal equal damage over time, the Pug smaller but quicker damage and the Mar large heavy blows.

For me the Lancer appears to work best and could be a good damage dealer based on other subs that you level. I can see the Lancer being a very good soloing class. That may be based on my FFXI experience though. I forsee a very possible Drg/Whm and a Drg/Thf style hybrid.

With all that nonsense being said, the goal is for a party to stay alive. Pace, patients and strategy will always beat brute force. You want your character to make your team better. Too much damage and your party cannot control the mob(s), everyone dies. Although raging out to finish a mob can be fun :)

Even soloing, the goal is for you to stay alive more than it is to deal damage quickily. You could deal 80 DPM, but if you take on 100 DPM then you lose. Dealing a little less can mean more, if it keeps you alive. Deal 70 DPM and only take on 60 DPM, and you win every time.

I know I make it sound trivial, but in my mind those are the basics, how do you manipulate them to excell, and still enjoy the game...


Halphdane wrote:
The role of DD in a party is the only time I would consider DPM/DPS as a factor in my build. In which case the Pugilist and Marauder will likely deal equal damage over time, the Pug smaller but quicker damage and the Mar large heavy blows.

For me the Lancer appears to work best and could be a good damage dealer based on other subs that you level. I can see the Lancer being a very good soloing class. That may be based on my FFXI experience though. I forsee a very possible Drg/Whm and a Drg/Thf style hybrid.

With all that nonsense being said, the goal is for a party to stay alive. Pace, patients and strategy will always beat brute force. You want your character to make your team better. Too much damage and your party cannot control the mob(s), everyone dies. Although raging out to finish a mob can be fun :)

Even soloing, the goal is for you to stay alive more than it is to deal damage quickily. You could deal 80 DPM, but if you take on 100 DPM then you lose. Dealing a little less can mean more, if it keeps you alive. Deal 70 DPM and only take on 60 DPM, and you win every time.

I know I make it sound trivial, but in my mind those are the basics, how do you manipulate them to excell, and still enjoy the game...




;D yay! i was a drg/whm. i love drg. i was thinking of doing lancer for sure.. but i also loved my pld. so i may go for gladiator just to tank. but as i read from someone else.. all can do decent tanking jobs? hmm idk. lol **** you guys! gettin me all excited now. i definitely think you guys got my roomie more pumped for the game! thank you for you input ;DDDDDD<333
#19 Jul 25 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
20 posts
Quote:
;D yay! i was a drg/whm. i love drg.


There was nothing more fun than soloing my Drg/Whm or duoing with others. There's someing about grabbing a Lance and your Dragon(Muffin) to start and end the day...
#20 Jul 25 2010 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
AtomicTyson wrote:


Hello all. this is the confused "atomic tysons" roommate lol i was not telling him they are exactly like the old jobs. from what i saw on ffxiv, all i meant was alot of the same weapon skills are still used. which is awesome to me. i know there are going to be updates and different abilities for sure. all my roomie really wanted to know i guess was is this going to be a slow paced game? ff is naturally a slow game, to me. but do you think its going to suck *** to solo as much in xi?


1) it will be much easier to solo than in FFXI, and much more rewarding. They want the game to be much more casual friendly this time around and this is a large part of it. Guild Leves are specifically designed with a Solo option for this purpose.

2) The pace of the game will be faster than FFXI but probably still slower than World of Warcraft, which (IMO) is a smart pace. FFXI was a little tedious at times, but there's some thing to be said for being able to chat and enjoy yourself without needing to mash a button every 1.5 seconds or sooner. The adrenaline rush of FFXIV will be from taking on difficult challenges and reacting quickly as a group, and probably not so much from twitch response combat.
#21 Jul 25 2010 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
398 posts
Considering they have said that they are focusing more on allowing players to solo I doubt it will be an issue.
#22 Jul 25 2010 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
AtomicTyson wrote:
My roommate tells me that damage per minute doesn't even come into play in this type of game
He sounds pretty dense. Of course that would matter.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#23 Jul 26 2010 at 4:08 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
2,536 posts
AtomicTyson wrote:

My roommate tells me that damage per minute doesn't even come into play in this type of game but I would still like to hear some speculation on which class does more damage overtime in boss fights. For example, a class that does a lot of damage in big hits compared to a fast melee attacker that does smaller hits a lot faster.

Any information to enlighten a potential new player would be most appreciated!


"Damage per minute" ALWAYS matters in ANY game that involves fighting. I thought that was the most basic, common sense?

Right now we have no idea how the different jobs in XIV will do against bosses.

AtomicTyson wrote:
I am sure but I was wondering what the speculation was. My roommate was a former FFXI player and she speculated the Pugilist or the Lancer would be good choices for me.


If the classes in XIV are similar to their counterparts in XI, then something like the Archer and Lancer would do "a lot of damage in big hits" while something like the Pugilist will do "not as much damage per hit but faster hits."

AtomicTyson wrote:
My roommate was under the impression that the classes of FFXIV were just remakes with different titles of the classes from FFXI. Is this true or is the future of this game not as clear?


I'm under the impression that your roommate doesn't have a very good impression.

Of course, there will be the same old "tank, healer, damage dealer" stereotypes that are in pretty much every MMORPG out there. But that by itself, imo, doesn't qualify XIV to be called "just remakes with different titles of classes from FFXI." The gameplay, from what we have read and heard, are very different. Apart from the visual similarities in the races and classes, calling FFXIV just a remake of FFXI is not so different from calling any other MMORPG a remake of another.
____________________________
FF11 Server: Caitsith
Kalyna (retired, 2008)
100 Goldsmith
75 Rng, Brd
Main/Acc
Exp/Hybrid
Str/Attk
Spam/Others
#24 Jul 26 2010 at 4:45 AM Rating: Good
**
602 posts
The game is really great. Switching between classes is as simple as changing your weapon. As you level you can equip more Abilities. Even ones from the other jobs. If are a Gladiator and you Equip a Puglist Healing abitlity instead of using it every minute the counter is a minute and a half.

The game looks great and the Beta ran really smooth, they even ran it for 22 hours this time.
____________________________
BANNED
[ffxivsig]1715623[/ffxivsig]
#25 Jul 26 2010 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
There is no possible way to speculate this, because there is no dmg over time from normal melee attacks.

It's all abilities. Monk / Puglist would deal dmg over time but theres not auto attack, just like Lancer.


The system allows skills from other jobs to be used in your job so really, no one can tell you what to play even if we knew because its a free from system about growth. If you are really as uncreative and weak willed as these posts sound then just do whatever the Brady Games guide says when the game comes out.

also please stop saying DPS/DPM, that will really not be a term you use in 14.
____________________________

[ffxivsig]1183812[/ffxivsig]
#26 Jul 26 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,150 posts
Halphdane wrote:
Quote:
;D yay! i was a drg/whm. i love drg.


There was nothing more fun than soloing my Drg/Whm or duoing with others. There's someing about grabbing a Lance and your Dragon(Muffin) to start and end the day...

Just keep in mind there are no pet jobs right now in FFXIV. You don't get a wyvern when you play Lancer.
____________________________
FFXI-Garuda 2003-2009; Lakshmi 2011-8/20/13 (retired)
FFXIV: ARR - Ghost Bear, Balmung server
#27 Jul 26 2010 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
Louiscool wrote:
There is no possible way to speculate this, because there is no dmg over time from normal melee attacks.

It's all abilities. Monk / Puglist would deal dmg over time but theres not auto attack, just like Lancer.


The system allows skills from other jobs to be used in your job so really, no one can tell you what to play even if we knew because its a free from system about growth. If you are really as uncreative and weak willed as these posts sound then just do whatever the Brady Games guide says when the game comes out.

also please stop saying DPS/DPM, that will really not be a term you use in 14.


How do you know which terms people will or won't use?

It's a natural concern for people to want to know that they or the people around them are being effective. When it comes do DD, it's much easier to make an evaluation based on the raw numbers, and to express that as a rate of damage, whether that is damage/time or damage/stamina or whatever else. I think it's a bit too early to make blanket statements about how that will be expressed or how important it will be.

There are some reasons that 'DPS' wasn't as much of a fixation in FFXI, including the fact that so many players were on consoles, where parsers don't exist. FFXIV is launching on PC first, and you may see more widespread use of parsers and more discussion of DPS, especially if gear becomes easier to get and therefore more consistent from player to player.

Edited, Jul 26th 2010 11:55am by KarlHungis
#28 Jul 26 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
20 posts
Quote:
Just keep in mind there are no pet jobs right now in FFXIV. You don't get a wyvern when you play Lancer.


I'm very well aware of this as sad as it is... But I'm still going to grab my ~lance~

and then, maybe a weaver could make a dragon costume and you could be my pet? ~jk~
#29 Jul 26 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
4,150 posts
Halphdane wrote:
Quote:
Just keep in mind there are no pet jobs right now in FFXIV. You don't get a wyvern when you play Lancer.


I'm very well aware of this as sad as it is... But I'm still going to grab my ~lance~

and then, maybe a weaver could make a dragon costume and you could be my pet? ~jk~

Well, I plan on being a Roegadyn. Have your weaver friend make me a thong and a mohawk, and I'll be Titan. :)
____________________________
FFXI-Garuda 2003-2009; Lakshmi 2011-8/20/13 (retired)
FFXIV: ARR - Ghost Bear, Balmung server
#30 Jul 26 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
15 posts
Louiscool wrote:
There is no possible way to speculate this, because there is no dmg over time from normal melee attacks.

It's all abilities. Monk / Puglist would deal dmg over time but theres not auto attack, just like Lancer.


The system allows skills from other jobs to be used in your job so really, no one can tell you what to play even if we knew because its a free from system about growth. If you are really as uncreative and weak willed as these posts sound then just do whatever the Brady Games guide says when the game comes out.

also please stop saying DPS/DPM, that will really not be a term you use in 14.


Though there are points to this that I would agree on there must be some sort of a way to factor in cooldown times and such along with attacking to find some kind of rate of damage.
If it comes out that it is extremely difficult to pin down and that some classes appear to be quite similar then fine with me! Just was wondering the speculation which seems hard to do at this point since nobody seems to have much info on it.

I was wondering if the that the auto attack feature was for sure not going to be in FF14 because I am a huge arcade playing button masher who loves comboing so that would make this game so much more interactive to me.

Also, based on what my roommate was saying, if a class is doing too much damage to a monster it gets "hate" and then the monster starts attacking that player which could in turn ruin it for the entire party. Is this true and can someone explain this process a bit more to a newbie to FF?
#31 Jul 26 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
AtomicTyson wrote:
Louiscool wrote:
There is no possible way to speculate this, because there is no dmg over time from normal melee attacks.

It's all abilities. Monk / Puglist would deal dmg over time but theres not auto attack, just like Lancer.


The system allows skills from other jobs to be used in your job so really, no one can tell you what to play even if we knew because its a free from system about growth. If you are really as uncreative and weak willed as these posts sound then just do whatever the Brady Games guide says when the game comes out.

also please stop saying DPS/DPM, that will really not be a term you use in 14.


Though there are points to this that I would agree on there must be some sort of a way to factor in cooldown times and such along with attacking to find some kind of rate of damage.
If it comes out that it is extremely difficult to pin down and that some classes appear to be quite similar then fine with me! Just was wondering the speculation which seems hard to do at this point since nobody seems to have much info on it.

I was wondering if the that the auto attack feature was for sure not going to be in FF14 because I am a huge arcade playing button masher who loves comboing so that would make this game so much more interactive to me.

Also, based on what my roommate was saying, if a class is doing too much damage to a monster it gets "hate" and then the monster starts attacking that player which could in turn ruin it for the entire party. Is this true and can someone explain this process a bit more to a newbie to FF?


This is a complex issue but the simple answer is:

Every thing that every one does makes a monster a little bit mad. When healers heal you, the monster gets angry. When you poke it with a stick, it gets angry. When the tank uses an ability like Provoke, it gets angry.

The tank (that's usually a guy carrying a shield or who has some other way to avoid taking damage) is the guy that you want the mob to attack, because he's less likely to die than, for example, the guy wearing a robe. In order to make that happen, you have to make sure your damage (or healing, or whatever) doesn't make the monster angrier at you than it is at the tank.

So yes, if you do too much damage, too quickly, you can easily steal the attention of a mob (that's MMO-speak for "monster") from the person who is supposed to be tanking it. In fact, at low levels especially this will probably happen a lot, because tanks don't have good tools to make mobs angry at them. Eventually, tanks get better ways to provoke mobs, and damage dealers get better and smarter at managing their aggro to NOT provoke mobs. Some of them, such as Lancers, actually get tools that allow them to trick a mob into attacking some one else, which is pretty useful when that "some one else" happens to be the tank.
#32 Jul 26 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
20 posts
Quote:
Also, based on what my roommate was saying, if a class is doing too much damage to a monster it gets "hate" and then the monster starts attacking that player which could in turn ruin it for the entire party. Is this true and can someone explain this process a bit more to a newbie to FF?


Every attack, spell, and ability generates a certian amount of hate from a mob. Your goal is to let one person the "tank" keep the hate. The tank usually has the best armor/defense/vitality. Then then the mob is fighting the party as if it were a one on one contest, mob vs tank. Everyone else does just enough with their attacks, spells, and abilities to not take hate from the tank. The tank doesn't usually deal the most damage, but generates hate through abilities and skill chains. You can deal more damage than the tank, but pace yourself as to not pull the mob off him/her.

When the mob starts running free, mages usually die first, then the lightly armored mele, then the tank...
#33 Jul 26 2010 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
15 posts
So based on what I have heard so far and of course this is just an example since no one can confirm the facts about FFXIV:

Though a Pugilist might do more DPM than a Lancer, the Pugilist will never be able to max out because it is restricted by this hate system. So in a sense, a Lancer is able to go all out and still maintain the hate on the tank (Gladiator I think?). So in this scenario which again isn't all entirely true, the Pugilist's damage output is actually restricted by the skill level of the tank while the Lancer is more of a soloing class that can boss. These two jobs seem very interesting to me if this is the rough sketch of things.

Also, and not to offend any mages here, my roommate was unclear about their roles in this game. I was told that they do heavy damage but unfortunately that they constantly gain to much hate, take the attention off of the tank, and die a lot. Is this true? What are the roles of mages? Also, she told me based on FFXI that though they are strong, DD wise the melee attackers out performed then. Can anyone enlighten me?
#34 Jul 26 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
20 posts
Quote:
Also, and not to offend any mages here, my roommate was unclear about their roles in this game. I was told that they do heavy damage but unfortunately that they constantly gain to much hate, take the attention off of the tank, and die a lot. Is this true? What are the roles of mages? Also, she told me based on FFXI that though they are strong, DD wise the melee attackers out performed then. Can anyone enlighten me?


That's the pace that I was referring to. I was a 75BLM/WHM in FFXI, and could flat out deal damage, but if that's all I did was toss damage at mobs, the party would fail... I would distract the mob the tank would have to go all out to gain control, but he would lose it because the healer would have to go all out to keep him alive, and we're all dead excepth the THF who wisely used flee...

In stead the BLM did steady damage, enfeebled, and magic bursted on the skill chains for max damage, which was often the final blow...
#35 Jul 26 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
291 posts
To my understanding, I think players can carry class A's Abilities onto class B and Abilities are usually NOT the actual damage dealing skills. Weapon skills should be the actual skills that deal damage. For example, Lancer's Life Surge, as long as this ability is activated, everytime a player hit the mob successfully, (with regular attack that doesn't consume TP or weapon skills that consume TP) the player can gain some HP back and the mob's evasion ability will be decreased. Theoratically, all classes can use this ability, but the question is which class will get the most benefit from this ability. I'd never played the alpha or beta, so I'm just taking a wild guest based on what I understood from the ability description on the official site.

If Life Surge is a time based ability, then I think the more hits I can land on the mob within this time frame, the better result I can get from it. Thus, let's say Life Surge will last for 30 seconds, and if I use a Pug, I can hit 30 times (spamming regular attack every second and some Pug's weapon skills when I have enough TP), so that means I have 30 chances to absorb HP and put a debuff on the mob. Instead, if I'm using a Marauder, since I'm using a 2h weapon, my attack speed should be much slower than using a fist weapon, so for 30 seconds, I may only be able to hit the mob 10 times, which means I only have 10 chances to absorb HP and put a debuff on the mob.

That being said, I still think DPS or DPM should be used in FFXIV. One's DPS should be based upon what weapon (class) the player is using. From what I've heard, all melee classes starts with 0 TP before each battle, everytime a successful hit lands on the mob, certain amount of TP will be generated. Abilities and Weapon Skills will consume TP, so maybe Pugs can generate TP faster since they hit faster thus they'll be able to use abilities/weapon skills sooner than Marauders. But Marauders maybe able to generate more TP for each successful attack and their weapon skills may deal more damage.
#36 Jul 26 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
3,226 posts
I think we know now, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Pugilist is the best class. I mean, come on.

Come on.
____________________________
w(°o°)w
#37 Jul 26 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
15 posts
Almalexia wrote:
I think we know now, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Pugilist is the best class. I mean, come on.

Come on.


Honestly I just wanted information on a class that fit my criteria. Now that I am learning about the game more I see it is a lot more complicated but obviously there are certain DD classes and that makes sense. I am not looking for "the best" class I am looking for a class that suits my interests. Damage dealing and bossing with preferably a variable playing style. Though there is game balancing, every class has a certain role in the game that identifies it from the others and that is why I wanted to figure this stuff out.
#38 Jul 26 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
291 posts
AtomicTyson wrote:

Though a Pugilist might do more DPM than a Lancer, the Pugilist will never be able to max out because it is restricted by this hate system. So in a sense, a Lancer is able to go all out and still maintain the hate on the tank (Gladiator I think?). So in this scenario which again isn't all entirely true, the Pugilist's damage output is actually restricted by the skill level of the tank while the Lancer is more of a soloing class that can boss. These two jobs seem very interesting to me if this is the rough sketch of things.


I wouldn't say that for the Pugs and Lancers, I think this is where the player's skill comes in. A good Pug would know how to max out his damage on the mob while keeping the hate lower than the tank. As a Pug's point of view, in order to do that, he'll have to look at the tank's tanking skill (how fast he can generate hate), then adjust the timing to use his abilities/weapon skills. On the other hand, he'll have to think about what is he going to do if he accidentially grabs the attention of the mob. For example, I would use regular attacks at the beginning of a fight, store up some TP (maybe enough for three abilities/weapon skills), then blast a high damage weapon skill at the mob, if the tank can hold the mob tight, then maybe I can start doing some combo attacks in the future. If the mob would turn to me right away after my first high damage weapon skill, then I would turn on Featherfoot and as soon as I evaded the mob's attack, I would put a Jarring Strike on it to stun it, then use regular attacks until the tank grab its attention back. As for a tank's point of view, I would cast the ability/weapon skill that generates the highest hate rate (Provoke for example) as soon as possible and try to build up more TP with regular attacks and cast abilities/weapon skills that generate high hate rate as much as possible. As a Lancer, since I have a skill that can transfer the hate I generate from my next attack to the person in between the mob and myself, maybe I can use that as soon as I have enough TP, so I can put some extra hate on the tank just to help him tank better? Or I can save up my TP, wait till I have enough to use the transfer hate ability and a high damage weapon skill, then use it as a combo so I can put even more hate on the tank at one time? My point is that DPS/DPM is important, but it's not the most important thing in a MMO. You can play a class and spam all of its high damage weapon skills at the mob without caring for OT and you can have the highest DPS in the party, but you may put your party memebers in great danger or even wipes by doing that.
#39 Jul 26 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
dunlag wrote:
AtomicTyson wrote:

Though a Pugilist might do more DPM than a Lancer, the Pugilist will never be able to max out because it is restricted by this hate system. So in a sense, a Lancer is able to go all out and still maintain the hate on the tank (Gladiator I think?). So in this scenario which again isn't all entirely true, the Pugilist's damage output is actually restricted by the skill level of the tank while the Lancer is more of a soloing class that can boss. These two jobs seem very interesting to me if this is the rough sketch of things.


I wouldn't say that for the Pugs and Lancers, I think this is where the player's skill comes in. A good Pug would know how to max out his damage on the mob while keeping the hate lower than the tank. As a Pug's point of view, in order to do that, he'll have to look at the tank's tanking skill (how fast he can generate hate), then adjust the timing to use his abilities/weapon skills. On the other hand, he'll have to think about what is he going to do if he accidentially grabs the attention of the mob. For example, I would use regular attacks at the beginning of a fight, store up some TP (maybe enough for three abilities/weapon skills), then blast a high damage weapon skill at the mob, if the tank can hold the mob tight, then maybe I can start doing some combo attacks in the future. If the mob would turn to me right away after my first high damage weapon skill, then I would turn on Featherfoot and as soon as I evaded the mob's attack, I would put a Jarring Strike on it to stun it, then use regular attacks until the tank grab its attention back. As for a tank's point of view, I would cast the ability/weapon skill that generates the highest hate rate (Provoke for example) as soon as possible and try to build up more TP with regular attacks and cast abilities/weapon skills that generate high hate rate as much as possible. As a Lancer, since I have a skill that can transfer the hate I generate from my next attack to the person in between the mob and myself, maybe I can use that as soon as I have enough TP, so I can put some extra hate on the tank just to help him tank better? Or I can save up my TP, wait till I have enough to use the transfer hate ability and a high damage weapon skill, then use it as a combo so I can put even more hate on the tank at one time? My point is that DPS/DPM is important, but it's not the most important thing in a MMO. You can play a class and spam all of its high damage weapon skills at the mob without caring for OT and you can have the highest DPS in the party, but you may put your party memebers in great danger or even wipes by doing that.


So is hate effected more or at all by damage per hit or damage overtime? For instance, if someone comes in and does one huge attack is the monster immediately going to go for that attacker? Does the person doing little hits really fast even get noticed or is there a threshold of damage per hit? Or is it all based on whoever is doing the most damage overall the one who gets the most hate?
#40 Jul 26 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
291 posts
AtomicTyson wrote:

So is hate effected more or at all by damage per hit or damage overtime? For instance, if someone comes in and does one huge attack is the monster immediately going to go for that attacker? Does the person doing little hits really fast even get noticed or is there a threshold of damage per hit? Or is it all based on whoever is doing the most damage overall the one who gets the most hate?


Again, I don't know for sure, but what I expect/assume would be every time you deal damage to the mob (either from a huge attack or a damage overtime attack such as poison), you generate a certain amount of hate, this also works on healers, the more they heal, the more hate would be generated for them. I'm going to use WoW as an example, we have a Thread Meter which would monitor the hate that generated by each player, so that way you would know when you should stop smashing your high thread abilities. In WoW, every ability would generate an amount of hate. However, high damage skills don't necessary mean more hate rate. That is because tanks usually deal low damage, but their abilities (provoke, shieldbreak and etc) could generate more hate than a high damage attack from a DD class (for example a fire ball from mage), so even tho the tank is not dealing too much damage, he still has his way to generate hate. I think FFXIV would have a similar system. It may sound a little hard and confusing to you (since you said you'd never played any MMORPG right?), but the more you understand your character and the more you play in a party, the more you would understand.
#41 Jul 26 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
20 posts
Quote:
So is hate effected more or at all by damage per hit or damage overtime? For instance, if someone comes in and does one huge attack is the monster immediately going to go for that attacker? Does the person doing little hits really fast even get noticed or is there a threshold of damage per hit? Or is it all based on whoever is doing the most damage overall the one who gets the most hate?


When you hit a mob the take notice, a heavier hit is noticed more. However a mob gains TP every time you hit it, so multiple hits of equal damage gets noticed more. 4H/20dmg creates more hate than 2h/20dmg.
#42 Jul 26 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
Link to extensive enmity (hate/aggro) testing.

It's based off FFXI, but I'm betting a lot of the basics will also be there in XIV.
____________________________
XIV Campsite Wikibase - Community Built Camp List
[ffxivsig]400681[/ffxivsig]
#43 Jul 26 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
***
1,159 posts
Am I the only one that has no clue what he means by "bossing"?
#44 Jul 26 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Link to extensive enmity (hate/aggro) testing.

It's based off FFXI, but I'm betting a lot of the basics will also be there in XIV.


This is good info but unfortunately a lot of the terminology used is confusing the **** out of me lol. Abbreviations and such are throwing me off.
#45 Jul 26 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
Yogtheterrible wrote:
Am I the only one that has no clue what he means by "bossing"?


And by bossing I mean a party of some sort attacking one large monster. Do you guys not do that in final fantasy?
#46 Jul 26 2010 at 1:22 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
20 posts
Quote:
And by bossing I mean a party of some sort attacking one large monster. Do you guys not do that in final fantasy?


We don't call it Bossing... but we do do it... and it's fun^^
#47 Jul 26 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
***
1,218 posts
AtomicTyson wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Link to extensive enmity (hate/aggro) testing.

It's based off FFXI, but I'm betting a lot of the basics will also be there in XIV.


This is good info but unfortunately a lot of the terminology used is confusing the **** out of me lol. Abbreviations and such are throwing me off.


Just ignore it. It is indeed an amazing article that gets inside the nuts and bolts of FFXI, but it's pretty much only of value for FFXI. The general concept of having an aggro list is going to carry over (the same concept exists in pretty much evert MMO), but it's possible that none of the specific relationships will carry over. No sense learning about permanent vs temporary enmity or the specific interactions between different abilities or actions when all of those things could be different.

There's no need to learn the arcana of a game you're not going to play.
#48 Jul 26 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
291 posts
KarlHungis wrote:
AtomicTyson wrote:
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Link to extensive enmity (hate/aggro) testing.

It's based off FFXI, but I'm betting a lot of the basics will also be there in XIV.


This is good info but unfortunately a lot of the terminology used is confusing the **** out of me lol. Abbreviations and such are throwing me off.


Just ignore it. It is indeed an amazing article that gets inside the nuts and bolts of FFXI, but it's pretty much only of value for FFXI. The general concept of having an aggro list is going to carry over (the same concept exists in pretty much evert MMO), but it's possible that none of the specific relationships will carry over. No sense learning about permanent vs temporary enmity or the specific interactions between different abilities or actions when all of those things could be different.

There's no need to learn the arcana of a game you're not going to play.


Right, you can read it, but you don't have to remember everything in the article. I like to play games, but I don't like to "study" for a game. The more you play, the more you'll understand. It's very simple, if you use a weapon skill that deals a huge damage on the mob, and every time you use that skill, the mob would turn to you right away and you're fighting the 3rd or 4th mob with the same party, then you should know it's telling you something. Maybe don't use it at the beginning of the fight, and try to use it when the mob's HP is half way down? Or maybe try to use it right before the tank is going to use Provoke? If you really have no idea what to do, you can always talk to your party and try to find out the problem. Maybe your level or gear is too good comparing to the tank, so he can't hold the mob? Or maybe you need to learn an ability from another class which would reduce your hate or transfer your hate to a party member.
#49 Jul 26 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
Yeah, to use a WoW term, "Threat". Basically, the amount of damage you deal, the amount you cure, all this affects the mob's view of how threatening you are. It's a tank's job to keep the hate/threat/aggro on themselves, because they have the best armor and HP and can usually take hits better than squishy mages or lightly armored DDs. It is obviously everyone else's job to stay under the tank's hate level, because if you pull the monster off the tank, it will eat your face.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#50 Jul 26 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Good
*
205 posts
Yes, no "Super-mages" please. Keep things under control otherwise when you die, we leave you to die lol. Ok, maybe we'll give you a Raise 1, MAYBE.
____________________________
It's not who we are, but what we do that define us. - Batman Begins
[ffxivsig]477658[/ffxivsig]
#51 Jul 26 2010 at 10:46 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
Two words: Ancient Magic.

For one thing, Ice Staff was -always- the cheapest Staff. The fact that it game +10% Ice -and- +4 INT -and- Elemental Skill +10 was just badass.

Secondly, nearly all XP fodder has been weak against Ice.

The first time you convinced your party to do a Distortion SC and MB Freeze, watch the mob's HP go from 95% to 40%, and then watch the mob come rape your face... Totally worth every single lost XP of that R1 and level down you're about to take.

Totally. *******. Worth. It.

And anyone who tells you otherwise is a horrible human being. That moment of getting your face pounded in in exchange for that much damage is quite possibly the defining moment of Black Mages everywhere. Anyone who didn't enjoy the **** out of that death... I don't know what to say to you.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 29 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (29)