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Armor QuestionFollow

#1 Jul 26 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I have a quick question on weapons and armor.

I have yet to hear anything on weapons and armor being exclusive to its owner. Does anybody know if weapons and armor will be bound to your character on pickup/purchase? Or will many things be resellable, as they were in FFXI?
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#2 Jul 26 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
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As a crafter, I hope that stuff is BoE (Bind on Equip).

Good gear like Scorpion Harness and Dragon Harness aren't even worth crafting any more because so many of them are in existence.
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#3 Jul 26 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Default
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SOme stuff will but most will not.
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#4 Jul 26 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I've always hated bind on equip gear. I kinda tolerate BoP or R/EX gear, although I don't much care for that either... The idea that putting on a weapon or piece of armor makes me magically unable to loan or trade it to someone else just seems off to me.

I loan people games and books and DVDs, I've traded cards for TCGs. Even in XI, I've found myself loaning people weapons or armor as needed for missions or because they needed to go get some xp and needed some battle gloves or a spike necklace or whatnot...

I just have never cared for the concept that I can't sell/trade/give away stuff. I get the theory that crafters might like BoE, but consider the alternative: If an item costs a lot of money, and you're going to replace it anyway, fewer people will be likely to pay for it.

As a WoW example, I'm very unlikely to spend a lot of money on ilvl 200/213/226 BoE purples once I hit 80 because I'll replace them and won't be able to get my money back on them. Conversely, in FFXI, I can get a SH, and if I want to replace it later, I can resell it. The ability to resell an item is itself a reason to buy it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had to sell off a ton of stuff that I had to afford something new. If it were all BoE, I couldn't do that.

Now I know I was never the greatest at money making, but I know I'm not the worst too. Surely you've seen someone show up in gimpy gear and say that "I'm just waiting for my old gear to sell to afford better stuff". If gear can't be resold, many more people will be less likely to buy it, meaning less of a market for the gear anyway, and it hurts the economy when there is less buying and selling of durable goods.
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#5 Jul 26 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
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Sort of agree with Mikhalia here, the fact that I could sell my old gear off was a big plus to FFXI and something I missed when I moved on to WoW. However, it does make crafting hard to do. I never got into crafting in FFXI because the only way to do it was at a loss, crafting a bunch of crap that nobody will ever use, and I think the FFXI crafting created a stigma in my mind against crafting so in every MMO since FFXI I've never really got into it.
#6 Jul 26 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Yogtheterrible wrote:
Sort of agree with Mikhalia here, the fact that I could sell my old gear off was a big plus to FFXI and something I missed when I moved on to WoW. However, it does make crafting hard to do. I never got into crafting in FFXI because the only way to do it was at a loss, crafting a bunch of crap that nobody will ever use, and I think the FFXI crafting created a stigma in my mind against crafting so in every MMO since FFXI I've never really got into it.


To point out some cross-game comparisons, crafting was also a lot harder to get into at higher levels in XI than WoW. In XI, most people had no crafts over 40/100. In WoW, it was pretty much assumed that you had AT LEAST one craft capped, if not two, by 80. Everyone was a crafter, so the market was frequently stocked with items. Comparatively in XI, not everyone was a crafter, so the market was never really overstocked.

So the issue is, how do you balance a game that is just as much crafting as it is combat from the moment you create your character? I don't like BoE, but BoE may be the result.
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#7 Jul 26 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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One solution might be to only allow used armor to be deconstructed for materials. That way the armor is only usable by one player, but it still retains some of its value.

If it took 5 plates of copper for an armorer to make a BP, then he could buy it back and have a random chance to deconstruct it for 3-4 plates of copper. This would enable the owner to recover 60-80% of the item's value, and still avoid the market flooding with items and ruining the crafting market.

Harvesting would also remain viable since the crafter could not recover all required materials so would need harvestors to fill in the gaps as well as the initial demand. Harvesters could also produce materials used in comsumable items to further prop up the market for harvested goods.
#8 Jul 26 2010 at 6:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I hate to bring up the "realism" argument, because the counterargument is always "You're arguing realism in a game with catgirls and goblins and magic" but I'm going to anyway:

I see no realistic reasoning behind the point of why I can put on a shirt, take off that shirt, and then some magical force prevents me from giving it to you to wear. Places like the Purple Heart and Salvation Army and Goodwill -depend- on other people to donate their used clothing.

In fact, there are developers who are pushing for game licensing that would require players who purchase pre-owned games from other people to purchase licenses for the game, basically making the games BoE.

You know what else is BoE/BoP? DRM.

If I buy something, it's mine. If I want to give/sell it to someone else, I should be able to do so. People sell used cars, used boats, etc... Tell me, did anyone ever live in the house/apartment you're sitting in before you? For those of you who are homeowners like myself, how would you feel if your home was BoE; if you ever decided to move, you must demolish it, no one else can ever live there and you will be paid whatever the raw materials are worth to a dump (vendor trash, in the literal sense).

I'd much rather see a house I moved out of, or some armor I don't need any more, go to someone who will enjoy it as much as I have; not tossed away to an NPC.

If I buy a new video card, I can sell or give away my old one; I don't have to throw it in the garbage and tell a friend to "go buy your own". When I upgraded my fish tank from a 30 gallon to a 55 gallon, I sold my 30 gallon to someone else. I didn't bust it into pieces.

There's no logic behind a durable item becoming useless for resale.



Edited, Jul 26th 2010 9:00pm by Mikhalia
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#9 Jul 26 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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The problem is in this situation its not just a durable item its an indestructible one. Meaning that once its created it will theoretically never leave the system (barring throwing it away of player quitting).
That just means that at some point in the future there will be no need for the a new armorer to make gear for low levels because all the gear they would need is in the market for probably cheaper then the materials it would cost to make it.
#10 Jul 26 2010 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Txndokie wrote:
The problem is in this situation its not just a durable item its an indestructible one. Meaning that once its created it will theoretically never leave the system (barring throwing it away of player quitting).
That just means that at some point in the future there will be no need for the a new armorer to make gear for low levels because all the gear they would need is in the market for probably cheaper then the materials it would cost to make it.


When I say "durable item", I mean that as opposed to "consumable item" like food, arrows, shihei, etc.

Also, I do partially agree with the need to get it out of the market somehow, but I don't think BoE is it. If anything, I think I'd prefer it if they periodicalyl took permanent durability damage, a la DDO. Or course, I'd prefer it if it was like XI where it did neither, but if I -had- to pick, I'd rather my item have a slightly lower resale value than virtually none at all.
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#11 Jul 26 2010 at 10:15 PM Rating: Good
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Ahh sorry misunderstood.

Though I think traditionally it is non-consumable items that are usually BoE/BoP, at least in the mmo's I've played. It would seem illogical to restrict movement of an item that is going to be used relatively soon in the first place.
Also I always considered consumables to be the best items to craft as there will always be a need even from people who just bought from you.
#12 Jul 26 2010 at 10:25 PM Rating: Good
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Well what if you take an "indestructible item" like say, a Scorpion Harness, and then attach a durability to it. You purchase a brand spanking new 90/90 durability points scorp harness for 300gil. You fight a few battles and head back to town. Durability is at 50/90. You repair the item and it is now 89/89. You rinse and repeat this over several days, and the armor is now at 25/25. This is the "bottom cap". Now you can sell this less-than-pristine battle-scarred scorpion harness for 1/3 of it's value or 100gil. It is used and beat up and not as sturdy as it was new, or you could pay the full 300g and get a brand new item with a higher durability ceiling. This accommodates both crafters and people looking to save money. If you've got the money of course you buy new, but if you're only going to get a level or two out of it, might as well buy used?
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#13 Jul 26 2010 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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I think that would be an new and interesting way to deal with durability and item loss. I would be fine playing in a game that uses it.
One thing I think we should always be allowed to do is take items apart to recover some lost materials.
#14 Jul 26 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Good
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desmar wrote:
Well what if you take an "indestructible item" like say, a Scorpion Harness, and then attach a durability to it. You purchase a brand spanking new 90/90 durability points scorp harness for 300gil. You fight a few battles and head back to town. Durability is at 50/90. You repair the item and it is now 89/89. You rinse and repeat this over several days, and the armor is now at 25/25. This is the "bottom cap". Now you can sell this less-than-pristine battle-scarred scorpion harness for 1/3 of it's value or 100gil. It is used and beat up and not as sturdy as it was new, or you could pay the full 300g and get a brand new item with a higher durability ceiling. This accommodates both crafters and people looking to save money. If you've got the money of course you buy new, but if you're only going to get a level or two out of it, might as well buy used?


That sounds like a decent option. Like I said, DDO does something similar where whenever you repair an item the max durability has a chance to decrease. And of course items with lower max durability sell for less.
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#15 Jul 26 2010 at 11:05 PM Rating: Good
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You could also go with a flip side of this as well. As the durability decreases its value to fighters decreases, but it's value to crafters increases. An item that has been worn out might have a low chance of dropping a rare component that it has absorbed over the many battles it was used.
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#16 Jul 26 2010 at 11:57 PM Rating: Good
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desmar wrote:
You could also go with a flip side of this as well. As the durability decreases its value to fighters decreases, but it's value to crafters increases. An item that has been worn out might have a low chance of dropping a rare component that it has absorbed over the many battles it was used.


That would be an extremely interesting idea.
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#17 Jul 27 2010 at 2:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I like a lot of the ideas people are sharing here.

Here's one of mine.

Say instead of reduced overall durability, there's a kind of trade counter on an item. Say you've just made a brand new SH. It starts with a trade counter of 10/10. You sell it to someone and the counter is now at 9/10. That person sells it after they're done with it and it's 8/10, then 7/10, etc. When it gets to 0/10 it can no longer be sold or traded.

It's still just as effective in combat to the person that owns last as it was to the first, but it can't be sold it again. The last person to sell it would no doubt have a lower return on investment, but at least he still got something notably higher than NPC value.

#18 Jul 27 2010 at 2:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Edited, Jul 27th 2010 4:59am by XelKarin
#19 Jul 27 2010 at 3:00 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah I like all these ideas and how it works to benefit all. Even the person who starts the game a few years in will have some options on gear. Good used gear might be their best bet to get started. That would've been cool in XI when I started late...I remember being bummed out when I realized the price of the gear I wanted just for the dunes.
#20 Jul 27 2010 at 4:44 AM Rating: Decent
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There are tons of cool ideas here.

It sounds like RL. Where items can devalue but still have value. Like items on Craigslist vs Newly Crafted or "Retail."

I guess one could argue that the NPCs sell "Retail" too but at some sort of weird premium.

As for the OP, I don't know how its going to work, but I don't really mind BoE stuff or BoP because most of the time (at least in WoW) those items were gained through quests and were actually decent to use. You could sell them in towns to a merchant but not on the AH.

But in order for that to work in addition to crafting there needs to be drops from random mobs. One of the main reasons why I liked to play WoW was because of the off chance of a random mob dropping a purple or blue item/weapon/armor. And these were able to be sold on the AH for quite a bit. I believe that crafting should work the same way; whereby you can resell them on the AH. Though I like the idea of NMs items being BoP/rare/ex, but really all the camps went to were still crowded. (Mainly because there were TWO ways of obtaining most if not all of the original rare gear, which can't happen, it needs to be one or the other)

Although I really like the idea of a devaluing system to add a bit more realism to the economy.
#21 Jul 27 2010 at 5:00 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I've always hated bind on equip gear. I kinda tolerate BoP or R/EX gear, although I don't much care for that either... The idea that putting on a weapon or piece of armor makes me magically unable to loan or trade it to someone else just seems off to me.


yeah, its a bit weird, but its also a good way to ensure a modicum of game balance and economical control, specifically to avoid the whole "there's so many of XXXXX item out there that it's not even worth crafting anymore."

FF14 seems to be approaching this problem in a novel way however. i cant say more because of that whole NDA thing, but suffice it to say crafters will always have a market of some sort to work with, assuming things pan out like i think they will (soon as i can say more i will! im literally bursting at the seams here).
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