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Tanking: A matter of position?Follow

#1 Jul 26 2010 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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Obviously anything at this point is just hypothesizing. However, gleaning what information we have it seems safe to say that positioning is a big part of combat in the game.

I forget which interview, but I know a dev mentioned hitting a mob from the proper direction may be more effective than others. That mobs have natural weak spots.

One thing I have seen a few people mention is the obvious lack of hate holding abilities. Clearly there will be more abilities added once the NDA is lifted, but for now there doesn't seem to be a definitive tank. SE seems to have done a good job with giving every class in DoW a way to cure at least oneself, a tanking option and some DD options.

Coupling all this together, given what we know about positioning, does anyone think tanking, like finding the weak spot, could be a matter of standing in the right place?

What would you all think if tanking were done simply by standing in front of your highest damaging party member making use of a passive perma-cover system while using your abilities to reduce damage or evade attacks?
#2 Jul 26 2010 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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u kinda answered your own question , but with the tanking part, how could position matter... if you have hate, its always facing you, unless distance to enemy plays a factor.
#3 Jul 26 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
u kinda answered your own question , but with the tanking part, how could position matter... if you have hate, its always facing you, unless distance to enemy plays a factor.



Well my point was, what if you don't necessarily "need" hate? What if you're the one getting hit because your between the mob and the person highest on the hate list?
#4 Jul 26 2010 at 8:08 PM Rating: Good
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I see , sorry I missed that last line. Kinda makes sense to me, but i think it would be more about covering 1 player?whover u select, but maybe that player has to be closer to you than others?, its a good arguement, and alot of the thought (at least mine) is thinking about how ffxi worked. i loved ffxi and to be honest, i wouldnt mind playing the exact same game with different items, weapons, crafts, enemies, and areas , and of course better graphics, but will all be playing soon enough and enjoying all it has to offer. Im sure any of us true fans wont be disapointed in the slightest.... knock on wood
#5 Jul 26 2010 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Well my point was, what if you don't necessarily "need" hate? What if you're the one getting hit because your between the mob and the person highest on the hate list?

wouldn't this be the Cover ability ?

and as for lack of tank, Gladiators and Pugilist both have differnt types of Provoke.
also remember you can bring abilities into your build to give you better hate keeping abilities and skills

Edited, Jul 26th 2010 10:18pm by Roehon
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#6 Jul 26 2010 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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ohh wait and this is the chart that shows where more or less you should stand in respect to the mob
http://ffxiv.zam.com/Im/Image/159900
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#7 Jul 26 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Decent
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At first, it might be just that. Or more likely, all the top DDs will probably be tanking when the hate shifts.

But in the end, when people leveled majority of the DoW classes, all the tank-like abilities will be combined and create a "tank build" anyways.
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#8 Jul 27 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Good
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When a mob attacks a target, I don't think it matters if anything or anyone standing in between the mob and its target would make any difference. If it does, then everyone in the group would have to stand very close to each other, so whenever the mob turns to another player, especially the casters, the tank has to run in between the mob and the player immediatly to protect that player. I think the only way to do it this way is using the Cover ability from the Gladiator.

I think at early stage (maybe level 10 or lower), even if you're fighting a very very hard mob, the mob probably won't be able to one shot any classes, even DoM classes. So at this stage, a group doesn't need a designated tank, instead everyone can kind of take a couple of hits until the mob turns to another player. After level 10 or 15, players should have learned a few abilities from their classes, and that should include some major hate-holding abilities. By that time, a very very hard mob should be much stronger and maybe able to one shot classes with lower HP, so a main tank will be needed at this point. Also, an offtank may also be needed just in case the tank's tanking abilities are in cool down or not generating enough TP to cast them. From level 20 or 25 and on, players should have developed a list of abilities specifically for DD or tanking, so main tank should have enough abilities to hold the mob.

One thing just came across my mind is that to make the "best" tank or DD, we probably can't level up one specific class to the cap first, then work on another class. We'll probably have to work on a couple of classes simultaneously in order to learn more tanking or DD abilities...
#9 Jul 27 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Default
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If all other MMOs are any indication, there won't be a need for a "tank" until close to end game. Low level groups are usually just click-fests to get things dead, and it really never matters who is tanking.

Once the need for a tank evolves the tank classes should have sufficient agro generation to hold agro off any sensible DPSer.
#10 Jul 27 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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they've already stated that distance and positioning in relation to mobs and each other will affect damage/additional effects to mobs, be it simple stuff like cone damage or "you stand here and your damage will eventually cause its horn to break off" type stuff
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#11 Jul 27 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Of course nobody knows for sure how it will be but i do hope it involves some tactics and good use of different classes.
One thing i really liked about FFXI is the fact you need to have battle tactics and make good use of the jobs and their abilities. You can't just turn on auto attack and wait for the mob to die.
I really hope they keep at least some of that gameplay in FFXIV, don't like to see it become a mindless click fest.
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#12 Jul 27 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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Enscheff wrote:
If all other MMOs are any indication, there won't be a need for a "tank" until close to end game. Low level groups are usually just click-fests to get things dead, and it really never matters who is tanking.

Once the need for a tank evolves the tank classes should have sufficient agro generation to hold agro off any sensible DPSer.


You need a "tank" in FFXI starting at level 1X, or else the casters (especially BLM) would die with one or maybe two hits from the mob.

In WoW, you need a tank if you're going to any level 2X+ instances.
#13 Jul 27 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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dunlag wrote:
Enscheff wrote:
If all other MMOs are any indication, there won't be a need for a "tank" until close to end game. Low level groups are usually just click-fests to get things dead, and it really never matters who is tanking.

Once the need for a tank evolves the tank classes should have sufficient agro generation to hold agro off any sensible DPSer.


You need a "tank" in FFXI starting at level 1X, or else the casters (especially BLM) would die with one or maybe two hits from the mob.

In WoW, you need a tank if you're going to any level 2X+ instances.


Yeah, I'd be pretty annoyed if you didn't need a tank until endgame, because it means tanks won't get to learn HOW to tank until endgame, when the stakes for failure are much higher.

I'd much rather someone learn to tank and die in a Dunes party and cause 6 people to wipe than to learn to tank and fail in a setting where they could cause 18 people to wipe. Ditto for healing.

Edited, Jul 27th 2010 7:38pm by Mikhalia
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#14 Jul 27 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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dunlag wrote:
One thing just came across my mind is that to make the "best" tank or DD, we probably can't level up one specific class to the cap first, then work on another class. We'll probably have to work on a couple of classes simultaneously in order to learn more tanking or DD abilities...


At the moment I am betting that this is correct - although gladiator does look like it will be the 'base' tanking class - it is obvious that this game will highly reward horizontal leveling
#15 Jul 28 2010 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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I am really interested in this exact topic. I plan to tank from Day 1. Here are my thoughts on how it will differ from FFXI:

1.) From what we've read, many encounters will be group vs. group. For tanking this means:
a.) You need to be able to get agrro from all the creatures off the bat.
b.) You need to be able to survive aggro from all the creatures in teh first moments.

2.) This is called the Alpha Attack, where you will have to absorb the max enemy DoT.
d.) The party must know who to /assist so that the Alpha Attack time is minimized.
e.) During this period you can easily be attacked in the back or the sides.
f.) This will make the position of the party members crucial during battle intiation.

3.) Utilizing a sub-Tank:
g.) The sub-Tank can aggro the Boss while you and the party take out all the underlings.
h.) The sub-Tank can aggro 1 underling and team up with a DD to kill it.
i.) In any event, the goal is to reduce the max DoT the Tank needs to absorb.

4.) When a DD aggros the wrong guy:
j.) He won't - because he is /assisting you, right?
k.) The sub-Tank has his provoke ready for defending the mages.

That's all for now. I'm very excited because I think group vs. group will bring a great new dynamic to battles. A whole new level of communication and coordination will be required.


Edited, Jul 28th 2010 4:46pm by RufuSwho
#16 Jul 28 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:

I'd much rather someone learn to tank and die in a Dunes party and cause 6 people to wipe than to learn to tank and fail in a setting where they could cause 18 people to wipe. Ditto for healing.


Agreed. Also the earlier a tank is needed for a party, the earlier DD can learn how to control their enmity. I'm not sure if it happened in FFXI, but in some MMO, an OT in an endgame content may cause the whole group to wipe.

RufuSwho wrote:
I am really interested in this exact topic. I plan to tank from Day 1. Here are my thoughts on how it will differ from FFXI:

1.) From what we've read, many encounters will be group vs. group. For tanking this means:
a.) You need to be able to get agrro from all the creatures off the bat.
b.) You need to be able to survive aggro from all the creatures in teh first moments.

2.) This is called the Alpha Attack, where you will have to absorb the max enemy DoT.
d.) The party must know who to /assist so that the Alpha Attack time is minimized.
e.) During this period you can easily be attacked in the back or the sides.
f.) This will make the position of the party members crucial during battle intiation.

3.) Utilizing a sub-Tank:
g.) The sub-Tank can aggro the Boss while you and the party take out all the underlings.
h.) The sub-Tank can aggro 1 underling and team up with a DD to kill it.
i.) In any event, the goal is to reduce the max DoT the Tank needs to absorb.

4.) When a DD aggros the wrong guy:
j.) He won't - because he is /assisting you, right?
k.) The sub-Tank has his provoke ready for defending the mages.

That's all for now. I'm very excited because I think group vs. group will bring a great new dynamic to battles. A whole new level of communication and coordination will be required.


Edited, Jul 28th 2010 4:46pm by RufuSwho


By group vs. group fight, I'm not sure if they meant group of mobs (five for example) vs. group of parties (each party may contain 5 players, a tank, subtank, healer and DDs). Meaning each group of party will possibly take care one monb at a time. I hope I'm wrong, but this is the impression I'm getting when I see group vs group. The main reason is that as for now, I don't see any tanking abilities from Gladiator that would generate enmity on multiple mobs at the same time. By tanking abilities, I mean something like an AOE version of provoke. I saw Gladiator has AOE attack such as Cirle Slash, but not sure how much hate it'll generate per mob.

Another key factor for group vs. group is that crowd control abilities are very important. Crowd control ability doesn't mean a subtank will tank a mob by himself while the rest of the team concentrating on one mob. To me, crowd control abilities are abilities that may cause a mob to be immobilized for a certain amount of time, and all DD classes should have at least one skill to crowd control a mob. So when it comes to a group vs. group battle, the main tank may tank one or two mobs at the same time, then the DD classes would crowd control the other three mobs simultaneously or each DD class focus on crowd control one mob, at the same time, they'll focus attack one mob and work their way across all the mobs. I know I probably shouldn't say this, but I really think WoW did a very good job on this. I'm not saying FFXIV should be doing something exactly the same, but I hope they can come up with some better.
#17 Jul 28 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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You make excellent points! An AoE Provoke skill would be required for what I was saying. Also, crowd control is more of the mages job - sleepga or some stun/immobilize AoE.

I doubt each member simultaneously soloing one mob is what is intended, but it's sure to be the right call for some situations. Very interesting.

Then there is the whole timed AoE spell thing that could put all-mage parties at a distinct advantage.

I wonder if the days of "camps" and "pulling" are over. Seriously doubt it though. I sure can't wait to see how it plays out!
#18 Jul 28 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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RufuSwho wrote:
You make excellent points! An AoE Provoke skill would be required for what I was saying. Also, crowd control is more of the mages job - sleepga or some stun/immobilize AoE.

I doubt each member simultaneously soloing one mob is what is intended, but it's sure to be the right call for some situations. Very interesting.

Then there is the whole timed AoE spell thing that could put all-mage parties at a distinct advantage.

I wonder if the days of "camps" and "pulling" are over. Seriously doubt it though. I sure can't wait to see how it plays out!


I really hope they'll take out the "camps and pulling" game play style out of XIV. I could easily fall asleep with my WHM and BLM (especially BLM) after playing like that for two hours.

As for the crowd control skills, I'm actually hoping all DD class would have some sort of crowd control skill/ability. From my experience, mage never had a problem looking for group, I had a lot of problem looking for group when I played my THF. And AOE ability/skill such as sleepga may not be a good crowd control ability/skill simply because sometimes you may not want to control the whole group, and some mobs may have higher resistance against sleep (or whatever AOE cc abilities you casted) while some may have lower resistance, so the mobs may "wake up" in a different time, so if the mage is responsible to cc more than 2 mobs at a time, I'm pretty sure he won't be able to output too much damage to the concentrated mob. He'll be too busy to keep his eyes on the mobs and see if they'd waken up or not.

Please forgive me for using an example from WoW, which I think it's a great crowd control example. In a group vs. group fight (for example 5 mobs vs 5 players), and let's say the player group contains the following jobs: a warrior, a thief, a mage, a priest and a ranger type of DD class (similar to RNG in XI). So the warrior would tank 2 mobs, the thief would use a cc ability to stun 1 mob (some type of mobs will immune to this ability), the mage would use a cc ability to immobilize 1 mob (again, some type of mobs will immune to this) and the ranger will use a cc ability to immobilize the last mob.
So the warrior would try his best to keep the aggro on the first concentrated mob, while create enough aggro so even when the healer heals him, the mob would stay on the tank. All DD classes would focus on the first concentrated mob and try to kill it before other mobs break free. If a mob was free from cc, then either the tank would take over the mob and try to tank it or the player that's responsible for the mob would put another cc ability on it. Some cc abilities can only use before the mobs are in active mode while some abilities can be use while the mob is not being damaged.
#19 Jul 28 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Thinking more on how monsters will (possibly) have weak points, I wonder how that would work.
Example: If there is weak points. Will the spots be targetable or just based on position, and if based on position how will the melee DDs react. Since there may be only one or couple weak spots will the DDs all be fighting over who gets the better position? On larger monster it may be fine to have multiple DD's on one side of the mob (via weakpoint). But smaller there may not be a big enough window with the virtual space that mob takes up. So pending on size.
#20 Jul 28 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I actually kinda liked camping and pulling in XI, although between KRT bones groups and sky weapon groups, the idea of being mobile could be pretty fun as well.
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#21 Jul 28 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pinkunderwear wrote:
Thinking more on how monsters will (possibly) have weak points, I wonder how that would work.
Example: If there is weak points. Will the spots be targetable or just based on position, and if based on position how will the melee DDs react. Since there may be only one or couple weak spots will the DDs all be fighting over who gets the better position? On larger monster it may be fine to have multiple DD's on one side of the mob (via weakpoint). But smaller there may not be a big enough window with the virtual space that mob takes up. So pending on size.


This is an interesting point.
It would be interesting if they can catergorize the type of weak point. I'm thinking that right now it seems different weapon can do different type of damage, for example, sword and axe will do slash damage, fist weapon will do blunt damage, spear will do piercing damage and etc. If let's say a dragon type of mob, and its weak point is its tail, which slash damage would have the best effect over other types of damages, then obviously characters that use a sword or axe will get to stand near its tail which the Pug and Lancer stand at the side of it.
#22 Jul 29 2010 at 3:20 AM Rating: Good
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dunlag wrote:
Pinkunderwear wrote:
Thinking more on how monsters will (possibly) have weak points, I wonder how that would work.
Example: If there is weak points. Will the spots be targetable or just based on position, and if based on position how will the melee DDs react. Since there may be only one or couple weak spots will the DDs all be fighting over who gets the better position? On larger monster it may be fine to have multiple DD's on one side of the mob (via weakpoint). But smaller there may not be a big enough window with the virtual space that mob takes up. So pending on size.


This is an interesting point.
It would be interesting if they can catergorize the type of weak point. I'm thinking that right now it seems different weapon can do different type of damage, for example, sword and axe will do slash damage, fist weapon will do blunt damage, spear will do piercing damage and etc. If let's say a dragon type of mob, and its weak point is its tail, which slash damage would have the best effect over other types of damages, then obviously characters that use a sword or axe will get to stand near its tail which the Pug and Lancer stand at the side of it.


On top of that, seems like each DoW has 1 or 2 weaponskills that are unique in the damage they do. Pugs have one that does slash damage to go with their usual blunt damage for example. Lancer has mainly piercing, but one with blunt & one with slash. The madness early on should be quite entertaining. Add in people's elemental balance which could complicate things further. The potential for all kinds of strategies sounds really fun so far.
#23 Jul 29 2010 at 5:59 AM Rating: Decent
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As it has been brought up before, I think SE's intention with FFXI was to have 'roaming' parties killing things and not group/pull. I don't remember where I saw that though. Obviously this didn't end up happening. But I wouldn't mind seeing it in FFXIV.

As far as tanking I'm sure there'll be some sort of provoke. Otherwise groups will have to watch and use their abilities that much more carefully.

And as far as group vs group, I hope there are a lot of encounters that require some sort of strategy early on. I don't think it is necessary prior to endgame, as 1. This game isn't rocket science and 2. Even if it were the good players would have somewhat of a hold on the mechanics, effectively separating the wheat from the chaff.
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