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Disciples of the Hand/Land in fightsFollow

#1 Aug 01 2010 at 5:21 AM Rating: Good
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Crafting was always something that interested me and although I did spend hours farming mobs to get items for Bonecrafting the highest I ever got was mid 30s. In WoW I remember being capped at Clothcrafting and happy to provide the magic ware not just for me but also to my friends.

Now in XIV it mentions that you will actually be able to party as a Disciple of the Land/Hand and bring benefits to the party such as improved loot.

My question is, does anyone have any idea how you will actually be able to fight as a weaver and such? I can't really see a character fighting with needle and thread to be honest...
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#2 Aug 01 2010 at 5:54 AM Rating: Good
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People will laugh as I sit in Ul'dah seeking pt as weaver, then one brave group will take the chance and **** themselves when I bust out 1,000 needles!

Seriously though, I can't come up with much for a weaver in battle. Apparently miners can throw rocks like Braveheart and atleast they have pickaxes. But I'm not sure exactly how useful the DoH/DoL classes would be in parties.

"Now in XIV it mentions that you will actually be able to party as a Disciple of the Land/Hand and bring benefits to the party such as improved loot."
Maybe they atleast have some special abilities that make it worth while for them to tag along, but they still won't fight well.
#3 Aug 01 2010 at 6:59 AM Rating: Decent
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All I know, is that each DoH/DoL can throw Rocks to defend themselves. They may gain a few combat abilities in time... Of course our crafters and gatherers they won't exactly be super useful in comparison to DoW/DoM, but I do have a feeling the party will benefit in some way.

Besides, there's no consequence of throwing in an extra member to the party. ;]

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 7:26am by MokiSunscar
#4 Aug 01 2010 at 7:06 AM Rating: Good
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Lol... Thousand needles.. That would fit weaver like a glove. :P

I could see them all having extremely mediocre fighting abilities, such as pitching rocks and such... But I'm guessing if they are used in battles at all, it will mainly be for the loot and or various support aspects, if they even get those... Maybe you can merge the loot skills on another job though, so perhaps you don't actually have to go into battle as a crafter to gain that ability... Who knows though, guess we just wait and see how it pans out.

Oh yeah, and it would be hilarious if you could go into battle as a goldsmith, and just lob chunks of gil for damage. It'd be about as popular as endgame throwing nin's in FFXI, but it would be hilarious to poke fun at. :P

Anyways yeah, I'm interested to see where they take the crafting jobs later on in the game, but I'll just wait and see, as I haven't heard enough about it to have a clue yet... For all we know, throw rock evolves into rapidfire hurl boulder, and blacksmith will rule endgame DD. hehe xD
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#5 Aug 01 2010 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I cant honestly see DOH and DOL being intentionally used in battles in a party environment. Whether you can mix some traits from them with a DOM and DOW or not i dont know but i cant see people giving up a spot in thier party for them, **** my Dragoon in XI did great damage but was still never invited to partys lol.
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#6 Aug 01 2010 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Well SE is trying to get the point across that they WANT you to have as many people in the party as you can get. xD No reason for you to give up a spot in your party! Throwing in an extra crafter shouldn't hurt anything.

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 7:29am by MokiSunscar
#7 Aug 01 2010 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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I remember reading somewhere, but i can't remember if it was NDA breaking or not, something like Crafters having buff/debuff abilities to contribute to a party and/or help even out battles for their weaker attack ability. Miners could probably do something like throw dust/dirt in the monsters eyes and blind them, weavers can probably tangle them in thread to slow them down, maybe armorers can increase armor benefit to the players or decrease the monster's ect. (I really am just guess here)
#8 Aug 01 2010 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Tweezle120 wrote:
I remember reading somewhere, but i can't remember if it was NDA breaking or not, something like Crafters having buff/debuff abilities to contribute to a party and/or help even out battles for their weaker attack ability. Miners could probably do something like throw dust/dirt in the monsters eyes and blind them, weavers can probably tangle them in thread to slow them down, maybe armorers can increase armor benefit to the players or decrease the monster's ect. (I really am just guess here)

I haven't heard that, but it sounds like it could be possible. :O That would be pretty awesome...

Thousand Needles and a Thread Lasso. Lol from the looks of things, Weavers will be unstoppable. Step aside, <insert OP Disc here>.
#9 Aug 01 2010 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
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All I know is they did say that in the begining the crafters won't be worth much in terms of battle, but they are allready considering ways to improve that. What they are hoping is a party of adventurers will want a group of crafters to follow them around, and vice-versa.

The adventurers get the benifit of having everything repaired (fantastic for that long jouney), and the crafters gain access to areas where they would never venture alone to gather precious items.

As much as they state they are pushing soloing, the more I read the more focused upon grouping it seems. Which I very much like.

So, if you're planning on being a crafter as your primary job, then plan to tag-along with parties. Keep your ears open, a smile on your face, and lend a hand whenever possible. Soon after people will be asking you to acompany them.
#10 Aug 01 2010 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I must say, I like the way you put it Futz!

Finally, crafting/gathering is no longer a lonesome activity? :O Me likes this.
#11 Aug 01 2010 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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Hmm, I totally missed or ignored this previously on the main site.

"Blacksmithing techniques are capable of weakening enemies constructed of metal, as well as discovering loot that would otherwise be overlooked by the untrained eye"

"In addition to their unexcelled prowess at throwing rocks, miners also use their skills to debilitate enemies with mineral compositions."

I guess more info is coming for the others...

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/#/gameplay/armourysystem/land/miner/role

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 9:58am by TwistedOwl
#12 Aug 01 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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@ Twisted
So, they will work as buffers. I wonder if they can function without being formally in the party. Also, I'm starting to get a bit worried, they keep using the word "blacksmith" instead of crafters. I used to think it was just to simplify things, but I'm starting to suspect the blacksmith craft will be the only one a party would want to bring.
#13 Aug 01 2010 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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Futzbucket wrote:
@ Twisted
So, they will work as buffers. I wonder if they can function without being formally in the party. Also, I'm starting to get a bit worried, they keep using the word "blacksmith" instead of crafters. I used to think it was just to simplify things, but I'm starting to suspect the blacksmith craft will be the only one a party would want to bring.


Blacksmiths debuff metal enemies and find extra loots.

Miners debuff enemies and are really good at rock throwing.

They just haven't given info for the rest of them yet, but I would be surprised if they all didn't do something special.
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#14 Aug 01 2010 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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@ Edalya
I think you're absolutly right. Thanks for calming me!
#15 Aug 01 2010 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
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Knowing what SquareEnix is aiming for, I wouldn't be too worried about that... Blacksmith/Miner being the only options for bringing along in a party... That doesn't seem right. It's just another lack of information. (Lol, I've never seen one of those before. *rolls eyes*)

EDIT: Hah, looks like Edalya beat me to it. xD

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 8:22am by MokiSunscar
#16 Aug 01 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure that carpenters and botanists will have walking trees and treants shaking with fear!
#17 Aug 01 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
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My Lu-Shangs would have made the perfect weapon!
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#18 Aug 01 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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MokiSunscar wrote:
Well SE is trying to get the point across that they WANT you to have as many people in the party as you can get. xD No reason for you to give up a spot in your party! Throwing in an extra crafter shouldn't hurt anything.

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 7:29am by MokiSunscar


Yeah with a 15 person per party limit, and an estimate that a 5 star guildleve needs 10ish people to beat it there's plenty of room to just toss in that extra crafter/gatherer, monster xp isn't a set pool that's split up like in other MMOs I don't think...

And with guildleves needing 2 days between completion, no harm in letting a gatherer come on in and toss their quest on the pile, it's one more reward for you to earn that day.

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 8:48pm by Tweezle120

Edited, Aug 1st 2010 8:48pm by Tweezle120
#19 Aug 02 2010 at 5:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm happy to see that the majority of people expect or hope that indeed crafters/gatherers could be a viable choice for a party but what is worrying me is the lack of information ablout not just this but other mechanics.

I remember reading the FFXI forums for a month or two before I actually joined the game and already knowing what job and sub job I was going to have and what was expected of me in party situations.

The same thing happened when I joined WoW.

Since this is the first MMO I have joined at release date I would like to ask from more experience players, is this lack of information so close to release date normal across the board, just from Square or just from this game in particular?
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#20 Aug 02 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Man, I had no idea the crafting/harvesting classes were even gonna have any use in battle at all, as with most MMOs. I guess since you can actually change your class to a FULL harvester/crafter in FFXIV as opposed to say a Warrior that happens to also be a Weaponsmith then it makes sense.

I love the idea of giving buffs/debuffs, too. I love support classes like that... I might have to look into seriously playing a crafting class.
#21 Aug 02 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, I can see it now, Ironchef Batali dual wielding a frying pan/chef knife. Cut and cook your prey and feed it to your PT. :D
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#22 Aug 02 2010 at 7:21 PM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
I'm happy to see that the majority of people expect or hope that indeed crafters/gatherers could be a viable choice for a party but what is worrying me is the lack of information ablout not just this but other mechanics.

I remember reading the FFXI forums for a month or two before I actually joined the game and already knowing what job and sub job I was going to have and what was expected of me in party situations.

The same thing happened when I joined WoW.

Since this is the first MMO I have joined at release date I would like to ask from more experience players, is this lack of information so close to release date normal across the board, just from Square or just from this game in particular?


First off I'm glad many are also not jumping on a train that believes crafters are not combat-y enough to hit the field. And I also wish there was more info about how the different crafters/gatherers will work and work in combat...

SE is NOTORIOUS for keeping info under their hat even PAST release. They NEVER made gardening in FFXI obvious, there wasn't even a single page for it in the guide. (just a half page instruction-manual type blurb about how to access the menu from your Mog house)

That said we can always pray there's an ever so brief open beta mayeb a week or so before that should give us the flood of info we crave for character planning pre-release? because that's probably the only way we're gonna get it.

That or if they end Beta with a couple weeks to go and don't allow beta characters to carry over. then the testers will have nothing to lose by spilling their guts.
#23 Aug 02 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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I like how SE with-holds information about the game (FFXI or FFXIV). Call me crazy, but I enjoy not knowing all the ins and outs of a game before I even get to play it. Half the fun is stepping into a new world with 0 expectations. And then after you're immersed, I think it's fun learning about combat mechanics, what does "attack" actually do, how do certain stats affect certain spells. It's so much more fun for me to play around with those things in the game itself than to read it on a forum and just adopt the cookie cutter mentality.

Granted I'm not about to offer to tank as a mage class, but I also hope the community isn't so narrow minded to exclude crafting jobs from exp parties/leve quests, for example.
#24 Aug 02 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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It'll be interesting to see how far they've gone with making the DoH/DoLs worthy of fighting. Did they make it so they have some small use as tag-alongs or did they take it further and make certain areas/mobs where you'll really want a blacksmith, for example, to weaken their defense because your attacks are junk without it? Perhaps somewhere in the middle is more realistic. Not to where you "need" that crafter to have any chance, but it becomes very beneficial to have one. Never know with SE though, maybe certain boss fights will take some clever strategies like that...I think that'd be pretty cool...
#25 Aug 02 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
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I think we're missing something fairly obvious.
Since you gain MP as your physical level grows one could safely assume that a Culinarian (or any DoL,DoH) could "equip" a previously learned healing spell or buff and have the MP pool to use it effectively. Cure spells and Magic Debuffs and Buffs (while may not be as potent as a "sub" rather than "main") will probably use MP or part of your "Action Gauge"

Presto, you have a DoL/DoH debuffer using buff skills learned from the Conjurer or Thaumaturge class. Any other perks SE throws to the Culinarian to use in a party would be icing on the cake...

*pre post edit.. subbed out "Weaver" for "Culinarian" solely for the icing pun



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#26 Aug 02 2010 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Miqo'te Tanner + Whip = I'm glued to it for the rest of my life.

I hope DoH and DoL are very useful in combat. Otherwise it would suck to level them.
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#27 Aug 03 2010 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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Papanurf wrote:
Miqo'te Tanner + Whip = I'm glued to it for the rest of my life.

I hope DoH and DoL are very useful in combat. Otherwise it would suck to level them.


Except this time around crafting is supposed to be deep and fun, they have their own Guildleves that are NOT just "slay X of monster Y," AND you can level them to cap without ever killing a thing, because it's using their skills that levels the class. (granted I'm sure you'll head out to kill some things as that's the cheapest way to get materials.)
#28 Aug 03 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I think we're missing something fairly obvious.
Since you gain MP as your physical level grows one could safely assume that a Culinarian (or any DoL,DoH) could "equip" a previously learned healing spell or buff and have the MP pool to use it effectively. Cure spells and Magic Debuffs and Buffs (while may not be as potent as a "sub" rather than "main") will probably use MP or part of your "Action Gauge"

Presto, you have a DoL/DoH debuffer using buff skills learned from the Conjurer or Thaumaturge class. Any other perks SE throws to the Culinarian to use in a party would be icing on the cake...


I have to disagree with you in this respect as if your looking for someone with the skills from Thaumaturge or congurer (sp) then you might as well get one of them with the skill from the other as at least this way you will have some of the buff/debuffs at full strength.

To make DoL/DoH atractive to parties they will need their own buffs to be the main reason to be included in the party and not just because they're subbing some other skills.

I think as an example I can remember the NIN/WAR tank, of course the ability to provoke is essesntial to tank as NIN but if you didn't have shadows then you really coundt tank as well if at all...otherwise you would get NIN/MNKs (this info might be outdated as I haven't really played FFXI in years).
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#29 Aug 03 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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DoH and DoL could have the traits of hide finder for tanner gil finder for miner. Sneak a trap for tanner and explosives for miner. Bone crafter could have the ward traits like undead ward to make a PLD or dragon ward to make a DRG. So with the above finder traits from all the DoH and DoL you can make a THF class.
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#30 Aug 03 2010 at 6:08 PM Rating: Decent
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#31 Aug 04 2010 at 12:07 AM Rating: Good
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That makes Fisher the best puller of them all! They will be able to pull mobs from 100 yards away, and are deadly against aquatic type monsters.

Seriously though, since switching jobs is as easy as equipping a different weapon, wouldn't it be just as easy to perform all the buffs/debuffs as a DoH/DoL, then switch to a DoW or DoM and help finishing off the fight?
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#32 Aug 04 2010 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Personally I very much doubt you will be able to change weapons in the middle of a fight as this would preatty much negate the requirements of party formation.
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#33 Aug 04 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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uomaru wrote:
That makes Fisher the best puller of them all! They will be able to pull mobs from 100 yards away, and are deadly against aquatic type monsters.

Seriously though, since switching jobs is as easy as equipping a different weapon, wouldn't it be just as easy to perform all the buffs/debuffs as a DoH/DoL, then switch to a DoW or DoM and help finishing off the fight?

Hugus is right; can't switch classes when you're in combat. That's been stated by the devs already.
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#34 Aug 04 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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Ralrra wrote:
Hugus is right; can't switch classes when you're in combat. That's been stated by the devs already.

Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I hope my speculation about Fisher will be true though.
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#35 Aug 04 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
uomaru wrote:
Ralrra wrote:
Hugus is right; can't switch classes when you're in combat. That's been stated by the devs already.

Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I hope my speculation about Fisher will be true though.


In before "You're gonna need a bigger boat".
#36 Aug 04 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
uomaru wrote:
Ralrra wrote:
Hugus is right; can't switch classes when you're in combat. That's been stated by the devs already.

Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I hope my speculation about Fisher will be true though.


In before "You're gonna need a bigger boat".


~Groans~ but adds "Here fishie fishie fishie!!!!!!!!!"
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#37 Aug 04 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
uomaru wrote:
Ralrra wrote:
Hugus is right; can't switch classes when you're in combat. That's been stated by the devs already.

Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I hope my speculation about Fisher will be true though.


In before "You're gonna need a bigger boat".


~Groans~ but adds "Here fishie fishie fishie!!!!!!!!!"


Sharks > Puppies. Just sayin Smiley: laugh
#38 Aug 04 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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A little OT here...but i see alot of people saying that adding an extra party member won't hurt. Does this mean that EXP is not divided down depending on the amount of ppl in the party anymore?
#39 Aug 05 2010 at 12:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I wish I could say that much. :P
#40 Aug 05 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Good
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Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
uomaru wrote:
Ralrra wrote:
Hugus is right; can't switch classes when you're in combat. That's been stated by the devs already.

Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I hope my speculation about Fisher will be true though.


In before "You're gonna need a bigger boat".

Also in before "How I mine for fish?"
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#41 Aug 06 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
A little OT here...but i see alot of people saying that adding an extra party member won't hurt. Does this mean that EXP is not divided down depending on the amount of ppl in the party anymore?


The way I see it (from the limited information that I have) you kind of level in two ways, Personal Atributs (like STR, DEX, AGI and so on) and Class Skill (gain class abilities).

You increase your CS by activating any class skill you have available whether it be while crafting or fighting, for every ammount of the points given to CS a persentage will also be awarded to your PA.

This way you will be increasing both at the same time. I might be wrong but I think a similar system was used on FF3 I have on DSLite.

This is the way I can envision the game working so that crafters won´t have to fight mobs to be able to achieve high/end game events.
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#42 Aug 06 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm gonna be honest...the last thing I want to see in a pty is a crafter.

I mean, seriously. Do you see any of them in the battle diagram at the official site?

Craft all you want, I know I will if it's not a ***** like in XI, but make your great items and sell them to people. If it turns out that the crafting jobs don't have any real benifit or punch to bring to the table, leave that stuff in town and put on some real armor.
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#43 Aug 06 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
The way I see it (from the limited information that I have) you kind of level in two ways, Personal Atributs (like STR, DEX, AGI and so on) and Class Skill (gain class abilities).

You increase your CS by activating any class skill you have available whether it be while crafting or fighting, for every ammount of the points given to CS a persentage will also be awarded to your PA.

This way you will be increasing both at the same time. I might be wrong but I think a similar system was used on FF3 I have on DSLite.

This is the way I can envision the game working so that crafters won´t have to fight mobs to be able to achieve high/end game events.

This.

So if a player enjoys crafting so much as to choose DoH or DoL as the main discipline, the last thing he or she will want to do is fighting monsters in a party IMHO...Now if there is such a thing as a mining or fishing party, that is another matter entirely.
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#44 Aug 06 2010 at 8:45 PM Rating: Good
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I think the combat helper skills the DoH and DoL get will be more useful when subbed into another class from DoM or DoW than to have a straight up botanist in the party; But maybe it'll still be worth having a slightly lower rank lancer in the party if they have that high rank blacksmith skill that pierces armor?
#45 Aug 06 2010 at 10:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Tweezle120 wrote:
I think the combat helper skills the DoH and DoL get will be more useful when subbed into another class from DoM or DoW than to have a straight up botanist in the party; But maybe it'll still be worth having a slightly lower rank lancer in the party if they have that high rank blacksmith skill that pierces armor?


I'm pretty sure there won't be subjobs in 14, unless you mean purchasing cross class skills which probably does offer the opportunities you're suggesting then.
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#46 Aug 07 2010 at 12:57 AM Rating: Good
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RoasAtrades wrote:
Tweezle120 wrote:
I think the combat helper skills the DoH and DoL get will be more useful when subbed into another class from DoM or DoW than to have a straight up botanist in the party; But maybe it'll still be worth having a slightly lower rank lancer in the party if they have that high rank blacksmith skill that pierces armor?


I'm pretty sure there won't be subjobs in 14, unless you mean purchasing cross class skills which probably does offer the opportunities you're suggesting then.

That's the impression I'm getting too. In fact the "job" system reminds me a lot of the FF Tactics series, where you would learn skills from the weapons and armors you equip in one job, switch to another job, and sort of "equip" the learned skills. So you could have a White Mage who can equip shields, for example, because he had learned the "Equip Shield" skill as a Warrior.

On that note, it certainly seems plausible a player could learn DoH/DoL skills that would benefit the party, then equip those skills as a DoW/DoM. Conversely, a mainly DoH/DoL player can play, say, a Conjurer just long enough to pick up a few healing and protective spells, which can then be equipped later to increase his survivability in party or solo situations.
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#47 Aug 07 2010 at 3:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm gonna be honest...the last thing I want to see in a pty is a crafter.

I mean, seriously. Do you see any of them in the battle diagram at the official site?

Craft all you want, I know I will if it's not a ***** like in XI, but make your great items and sell them to people. If it turns out that the crafting jobs don't have any real benifit or punch to bring to the table, leave that stuff in town and put on some real armor.


Depending on the statment in "bold" I completelly agree with you, I just keep hoping that SE will match our expectations in regards to their statement that DoL and DoH will bring their own benefits to the party like BRD which was my last love in FFXI.
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#48 Aug 07 2010 at 3:25 AM Rating: Decent
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All this mention of throwing rocks and yet noone has stated the obvious; A rock traveling at a mere 40 MPH can kill a man. People can throw perfectly round objects over 100 MPH. At the very least, a well-thrown rock will hurt....ALOT.
#49 Aug 13 2010 at 7:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Now that more information is available I start to see that all the hype from SE in regards to DoL and DoH being in fighting parties is an over-reaction. I know that till the game actually comes out but so far from what I read is really not possible.

I have only read about 10 skills per class which I should assume it might get you to skill 5-7 and the only damage skill was rock throwing which inflicts the huge ammount of 1 HP. Enfeebles and defeebles are non existant.

It may be that no one in Beta has got to a skill level which these abilities show up but as it is I'm very disapointed.
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#50 Aug 13 2010 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Why can't someone switch between DoW/DoM and DotH/DotL as he/she sees fit, like in FFXI (sort of)?
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#51 Aug 13 2010 at 7:56 AM Rating: Decent
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They can, what SE said in the beginning is that even as DoL and DoH you would not only be able to take part in parties but would actually bring some benefits for them...

From what I've seen I don't see this happening much.
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