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Things that WoW has, which FFXIV desperately needsFollow

#1 Aug 11 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
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Nothing. Not a **** thing. If you disagree, you are wrong and can go play WoW instead.
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#2 Aug 11 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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This was an important and necessary thread.
#3 Aug 11 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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You deserve a prize. Smiley: monkey
#4 Aug 11 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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*joins the church of Mikhalia*
#5 Aug 11 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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LMAO. BEST THREAD EVER!
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#6 Aug 11 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
Couldnt agree with you more =)
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#7 Aug 11 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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#8 Aug 11 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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You got me, Mik, and it's not even Friday.
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#9 Aug 11 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Even Leeroy agrees to this.
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#10 Aug 11 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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I opened this and LOLed. Thanks for making my afternoon :D
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#11 Aug 11 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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LOL got me too i was gonna come on in here with guns a blazeing
#12 Aug 11 2010 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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I was ready to reply with hate to this thread before I even read it..
#13 Aug 11 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't agree Mikhalia

I want to see newer features and some of them *might* be wow related. That doesn't mean the game has to be a wow clone or that it will detract from it's awesomeness.

Example:

I like 20-40 man raids. People love that. Super big bosses, team work.
I like PVP. I like to duel.
I hate wow but love FF.

so why can't I bake the cake and eat it too?

A popular ~new~ feature doesn't mean it has to be left out. The franchise can evolve to provide todays expectations too.

#14 Aug 11 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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This thread is dumb.
#15 Aug 11 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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#16 Aug 11 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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I'll reply to this:

Smokefox wrote:
I like 20-40 man raids. People love that. Super big bosses, team work.
I like PVP. I like to duel.


1) Large scale events - we don't know that they will be included or not since we don't know what FFXIV's endgame will entail. Given the fact that party size is already high, it will probably be included.

2) As far as FFXIV goes, you are in the minority. Most people, in fact, do -not- want PvP. Many people, myself included, would not have played XI and would not play XIV at all if there were more PvP, because we do not wish to compete AGAINST others, we want to overcome enemies ALONGSIDE others. SE has designed their games to be focused on people working with each other toward a common goal. This common goal does not include the cost of other players "losing" (because in PvP, if you win, someone else has to lose)

PvP is a feature that many other games have, which means that there is an opening for good PvE games that can appeal to players who do not like PvP. Players such as those of us who enjoyed XI for years and those of us who are looking forward to XIV.

PvP, if included, WOULD conflict with PvE. It -always- infringes. I have played many games that included PvP but were not open PvP and they all share common threads; you HAVE to PvP to accomplish certain goals, people want to duel you and insult/taunt you if you refuse to duel them, people harass you to join PvP Arenas or battlegrounds... I, along with many others, do NOT want this in the game.

In a world full of burger joints, you're going into the one store that DOESN'T sell burgers and telling them to sell burgers. If you want your PvP burger, you are welcome to go anywhere else.

SE has stated that they dislike PvP and do not plan to include it, or if they do that it will be severely limited. Many people are playing XIV for just that reason.

Edited, Aug 11th 2010 2:04pm by Mikhalia

Edited, Aug 11th 2010 2:05pm by Mikhalia
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#17 Aug 11 2010 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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Smokefox wrote:
I don't agree Mikhalia

I want to see newer features and some of them *might* be wow related. That doesn't mean the game has to be a wow clone or that it will detract from it's awesomeness.

Example:

I like 20-40 man raids. People love that. Super big bosses, team work.
I like PVP. I like to duel.
I hate wow but love FF.

so why can't I bake the cake and eat it too?

A popular ~new~ feature doesn't mean it has to be left out. The franchise can evolve to provide todays expectations too.



I think they've compromised enough hoping to attract new fans from other mmos, but if they went too far in that direction, they'd lose some of the fanbase they already have. They acquired a good amount of this fan base by not being just like the other mmos.

I'm glad they're not big on PvP, my LS in XI would occasionally do it for fun and that was more than enough.

There will be plenty of boss battles, team work & strategies to think about, just in a Final Fantasy way...

EDIT
Mikhalia wrote:
In a world full of burger joints, you're going into the one store that DOESN'T sell burgers and telling them to sell burgers. If you want your PvP burger, you are welcome to go anywhere else.

That sums it up well, and I love the constant food analogies we got goin' here...

Edited, Aug 11th 2010 2:09pm by TwistedOwl
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#18 Aug 11 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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now now FFXI DID have PVP.....LAWL XD

saw this thread and thought NO WAY NUH UH! NO WOW THINK MORE ORIGINALITY NEEDED!!!!!!!!! then the page loaded and was like "phew. what a relief :D"
#19 Aug 11 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Majivo wrote:
This was an important and necessary thread.

Perhaps it should be stickied as well, for the truth it contains.
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#20 Aug 11 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:

PvP, if included, WOULD conflict with PvE. It -always- infringes. I have played many games that included PvP but were not open PvP and they all share common threads; you HAVE to PvP to accomplish certain goals, people want to duel you and insult/taunt you if you refuse to duel them, people harass you to join PvP Arenas or battlegrounds... I, along with many others, do NOT want this in the game.


Just curious, are you referring to WoW here? Because PvP and PvE are relatively exclusive at the end game, and since you can choose when to PvP on a PvE-designated server, it never interferes with your PvE progress as you level or even at level cap.

Just sayin'. I personally don't want PvP in FFXIV, although I did kinda like the competition between the cities when I played FFXI way back in the day for influence :)
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#21 Aug 11 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:

PvP, if included, WOULD conflict with PvE. It -always- infringes. I have played many games that included PvP but were not open PvP and they all share common threads; you HAVE to PvP to accomplish certain goals, people want to duel you and insult/taunt you if you refuse to duel them, people harass you to join PvP Arenas or battlegrounds... I, along with many others, do NOT want this in the game.


Just curious, are you referring to WoW here? Because PvP and PvE are relatively exclusive at the end game, and since you can choose when to PvP on a PvE-designated server, it never interferes with your PvE progress as you level or even at level cap.

Just sayin'. I personally don't want PvP in FFXIV, although I did kinda like the competition between the cities when I played FFXI way back in the day for influence :)


Just ask any endgame WoW PvE player how many times abilities or mechanics of the game had to be nerfed or radically altered because they screwed with PvP too much
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#22 Aug 11 2010 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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Callinon wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:

PvP, if included, WOULD conflict with PvE. It -always- infringes. I have played many games that included PvP but were not open PvP and they all share common threads; you HAVE to PvP to accomplish certain goals, people want to duel you and insult/taunt you if you refuse to duel them, people harass you to join PvP Arenas or battlegrounds... I, along with many others, do NOT want this in the game.


Just curious, are you referring to WoW here? Because PvP and PvE are relatively exclusive at the end game, and since you can choose when to PvP on a PvE-designated server, it never interferes with your PvE progress as you level or even at level cap.

Just sayin'. I personally don't want PvP in FFXIV, although I did kinda like the competition between the cities when I played FFXI way back in the day for influence :)


Just ask any endgame WoW PvE player how many times abilities or mechanics of the game had to be nerfed or radically altered because they screwed with PvP too much


And there's always the matter of PvP only achievements (including holiday achievements; if you don't like PvP, either do it or don't get the holiday achievement) and PvP only gear, the fact that you can't enter half of the game's cities without being attacked on sight, the fact that merely flying over Wintergrasp by accident will mean you can be attacked for the next 5 minutes. Either fly ALL THE WAY around it (wasting time) or stay way in the air for the next 5 minutes so your flag wears off (also wasting time).

Hey look, I was using an AoE while killing stuff and some guy flagged himself and ran into my AoE intentionally. Now I'm flagged too... and I'm dead.

Time for VoA. sh*t, died trying to get in there.

So on top of PvP "balances" resulting in PvE nerfs, there are several examples of PvP affecting players that do not want to do it.

In fact, by including PvP AT ALL, you are:

1) Wasting developer time and resources on PvP content that could have been spent on PvE content, and
2) Introducing things that people who don't like PvP will never want to or be able to do.

Edited, Aug 11th 2010 2:31pm by Mikhalia
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#23 Aug 11 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Callinon wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
Mikhalia wrote:

PvP, if included, WOULD conflict with PvE. It -always- infringes. I have played many games that included PvP but were not open PvP and they all share common threads; you HAVE to PvP to accomplish certain goals, people want to duel you and insult/taunt you if you refuse to duel them, people harass you to join PvP Arenas or battlegrounds... I, along with many others, do NOT want this in the game.


Just curious, are you referring to WoW here? Because PvP and PvE are relatively exclusive at the end game, and since you can choose when to PvP on a PvE-designated server, it never interferes with your PvE progress as you level or even at level cap.

Just sayin'. I personally don't want PvP in FFXIV, although I did kinda like the competition between the cities when I played FFXI way back in the day for influence :)


Just ask any endgame WoW PvE player how many times abilities or mechanics of the game had to be nerfed or radically altered because they screwed with PvP too much


Ah, that's a point. I thought he basically meant "I was walking around and ended up in an all-out battle between the factions. I just want to quest!"

That said, as an end-game PvEr, there has not been any changed to my class for PvP reasons that affected me personally.
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#24 Aug 11 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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It seems that people who clamor for more WoW-influenced designs forget that many MMOs HAVE tried to copy from WoW, and have been soundly beaten. There are some things that Blizzard did that are both innovative, and market-changing, but having PvP in every game is certainly not one of them. The way to stand out in this industry is by doing things differently than Blizzard while still maintaining a vibrant game.

In my eyes, SE has brought in some of the most positive aspects of WoW, and many games that came after, while maintaining their own unique vision. It is nice to know that people will likely be able to log in for an hour and accomplish something, for instance. However, 60 person raids are not necessary for a successful game. All a 60-person raid is, is an exercise in managing people, not true strategy, in my opinion. It seems to me that you can fulfill the need for an epic, strategic fight with as few as a handful of players. PvP is also a completely unnecessary feature. There are plenty of games that have it, and implement it well. Why potentially ruin a very in-depth PvE experience by forcing PvP into the equation? As someone else pointed out, just because PvP may be optional, does not mean it will not impact PvE experiences.

In short, you are absolutely, 100%, no bones about it correct, Mikhalia!
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#25 Aug 11 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:


And there's always the matter of PvP only achievements (including holiday achievements; if you don't like PvP, either do it or don't get the holiday achievement) and PvP only gear, the fact that you can't enter half of the game's cities without being attacked on sight, the fact that merely flying over Wintergrasp by accident will mean you can be attacked for the next 5 minutes. Either fly ALL THE WAY around it (wasting time) or stay way in the air for the next 5 minutes so your flag wears off (also wasting time).

Hey look, I was using an AoE while killing stuff and some guy flagged himself and ran into my AoE intentionally. Now I'm flagged too... and I'm dead.

Time for VoA. sh*t, died trying to get in there.

So on top of PvP "balances" resulting in PvE nerfs, there are several examples of PvP affecting players that do not want to do it.


Achievements have no effect on the game whatsoever. The most you can say is that they affect a rare, faster mount, but the same speed mount can be achieved several other ways (through PvE or PvP). I don't really see saying "I can only get specific items by PvP!" as really counting... they are either useless for PvE, purely cosmetic, or have PvE equivalents. VoA as a raid is an interesting example, as it is supposedly designed for PvPers. However, all the items that drop in it are dropped or can be found elsewhere.

Not entering enemy cities makes a lot sense, lore-wise.

I guess you do have a point about the AoE - I've never had that happen, but then again I don't use my AoE.

Meh, I guess it just never seemed like a problem in my own game. You're right though, if you have ANY PvP it will infringe in some way. Ballista comes to mind; again, never affected my game in FFXI, but I can see how it could.
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#26 Aug 11 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Default
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Callinon wrote:
Just ask any endgame WoW PvE player how many times abilities or mechanics of the game had to be nerfed or radically altered because they screwed with PvP too much


Or they could be not like wow and have separate values for spells/abilities in PvP and PvE, that way the two could be balanced separately.
#27 Aug 11 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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Reason not to add PvP to FFXIV:

It conflicts with past lore.

I'd expound upon it, but it has already been detailed several times, including in this thread.
#28 Aug 11 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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xXMalevolenceXx wrote:
Callinon wrote:
Just ask any endgame WoW PvE player how many times abilities or mechanics of the game had to be nerfed or radically altered because they screwed with PvP too much


Or they could be not like wow and have separate values for spells/abilities in PvP and PvE, that way the two could be balanced separately.


Or they could not be like WoW and not have PvP at all.
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#29 Aug 11 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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So true. Wise words.
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#30 Aug 11 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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yeah why are you trying to make the only taco place sell cheeseburgers, people?

If you want PvP - go play one of the hundreds of PvP games out there.

Myself and the thousands of other people who want to play -with- vs -against- other people deserve a choice too. Contrary to what you might think there is actually a market for a PvE exclusive game (and I don't think minigames like brenner and ballista count because they don't interfere with the real game)

#31 Aug 11 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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Open PvP would make camping any NM's a living ****. Like the OP said, if you want WoW, go play WoW.
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#32 Aug 11 2010 at 12:53 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia wrote:
xXMalevolenceXx wrote:
Callinon wrote:
Just ask any endgame WoW PvE player how many times abilities or mechanics of the game had to be nerfed or radically altered because they screwed with PvP too much


Or they could be not like wow and have separate values for spells/abilities in PvP and PvE, that way the two could be balanced separately.


Or they could not be like WoW and not have PvP at all.


They could also not be like wow and not have kill 10 rats quests as main leveling content and instant teleports for solo/casual players.
#33 Aug 11 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
yeah why are you trying to make the only taco place sell cheeseburgers, people?


Don't Taco Bell and Del Taco both offer a form of Burger? I dunno I've been deprived of both for a few years now living overseas...
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#34 Aug 11 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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Don't Taco Bell and Del Taco both offer a form of Burger? I dunno I've been deprived of both for a few years now living overseas...


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#35 Aug 11 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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PerrinofSylph wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
yeah why are you trying to make the only taco place sell cheeseburgers, people?


Don't Taco Bell and Del Taco both offer a form of Burger? I dunno I've been deprived of both for a few years now living overseas...


Taco Bell doesn't that I'm aware of. There are no Del Tacos near me.
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#36 Aug 11 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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Deila wrote:
Reason not to add PvP to FFXIV:

It conflicts with past lore.

I'd expound upon it, but it has already been detailed several times, including in this thread.


Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, but could you explain this? From what I read of the lore, there used to be several warring city-states, but after their area was invaded by a foreign power one was destroyed (Ala Mhigo) and the rest decided they had to team up.

Honestly, I can see the need to band together, but I can ALSO really see an underlying level of hatred between the city states. They have a long history of rivalries; they might team up now for protection, but that wouldn't mean no competition for resources, influence, wealth, etc. Was there a different part of the lore you meant?
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#37 Aug 11 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I realize that this was supposed to be at least semi-facetious, but I have to say that I don't agree with the message or the spirit behind it. FFXIV has already taken some cues from WoW...its not unreasonable to think that there will be other qualities that are worth learning from or adapting further on.

This strikes me as a sort of MMORPG jingoism. If we were inundated with folks clamoring for this game to be WoW, then perhaps I'd understand it more, but that's not currently the case.

This forum doesn't need to go to war with all things WoW. I'd like to think that we can be a little more welcoming and mature than this.

Edited, Aug 11th 2010 3:06pm by Eske
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#38 Aug 11 2010 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia wrote:
Nothing. Not a **** thing. If you disagree, you are wrong and can go play WoW instead.



That was a nice qualifier with the word "desperately." :)


I only played WoW for a couple of reasons:

1. My friends were playing it.
2. It satisfied my 'casual' playtime.

Extraneous reasons: I liked the PvP, despite being ganked all of the time. That was a nice rush of adrenaline that I only got in FFXI when I was about to be killed by an add.

However I don't need PvP in FFXIV. That isn't what FF is about.

But I would like to see (which it looks like SE is doing right) some leveling progression above what FoV offered in FFXI, but not as fast and cheap as WoW in the casual/solo department.

In terms of mechanics and things like customizable UI, SE would be stupid not to 'borrow' some elements from the worlds most popular MMO...SE would just make it their own...and better...yeah.
#39 Aug 11 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia wrote:

Hey look, I was using an AoE while killing stuff and some guy flagged himself and ran into my AoE intentionally. Now I'm flagged too... and I'm dead.


First thing I thought of reading that was ffxi pre-mpk patch. Gobby bomb aoe, mandy sleep aoe, and others. Was always fun riding a chocobo/walking by and getting slept, or killed from a aoe :/

Edited, Aug 11th 2010 3:19pm by Zalongamer
#40 Aug 11 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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PerrinofSylph wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
yeah why are you trying to make the only taco place sell cheeseburgers, people?


Don't Taco Bell and Del Taco both offer a form of Burger? I dunno I've been deprived of both for a few years now living overseas...


Only if you consider a taco or burrito to be a burger. Maybe Del Taco does (there aren't any around where I live any more), but Taco Bell is strictly tex-mex-stuff they made up in order to give you heart disease.

Jack-in-the-Box though, has good burgers AND tacos AND egg rolls. My all time favorite fast food place. Too bad I moved back from Socal to Chicago.
#41 Aug 11 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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WoW can just plain and simply suck it.
#42 Aug 11 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis the Stupendous wrote:
PerrinofSylph wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
yeah why are you trying to make the only taco place sell cheeseburgers, people?


Don't Taco Bell and Del Taco both offer a form of Burger? I dunno I've been deprived of both for a few years now living overseas...


Only if you consider a taco or burrito to be a burger. Maybe Del Taco does (there aren't any around where I live any more), but Taco Bell is strictly tex-mex-stuff they made up in order to give you heart disease.

Jack-in-the-Box though, has good burgers AND tacos AND egg rolls. My all time favorite fast food place. Too bad I moved back from Socal to Chicago.


It's almost like P.F. Changs; authentic Chinese food, prepared by authentic Mexicans.
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#43 Aug 11 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Good
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It may need a number of things from WoW. We don't know yet. Some of these "things" may come through in the form of version updates. I wouldn't dismiss the idea of S-E ripping ideas from the leader of the pack too quickly.

I feel that originality is dead. You're bound to have some blatant similarities here or there. There's no shame in copying -- in moderation.
#44 Aug 11 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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The point I was making, based on the wording in the thread title, is that while there may be this and that worth adopting as an idea, there is absolutely nothing that XIV -needs- for no other reason than "WoW has it, therefore FFXIV should have it."
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#45 Aug 11 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Deila wrote:
Reason not to add PvP to FFXIV:

It conflicts with past lore.

I'd expound upon it, but it has already been detailed several times, including in this thread.


Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, but could you explain this? From what I read of the lore, there used to be several warring city-states, but after their area was invaded by a foreign power one was destroyed (Ala Mhigo) and the rest decided they had to team up.

Honestly, I can see the need to band together, but I can ALSO really see an underlying level of hatred between the city states. They have a long history of rivalries; they might team up now for protection, but that wouldn't mean no competition for resources, influence, wealth, etc. Was there a different part of the lore you meant?


I'm referring more to the history of Final Fantasy as a series. Very rarely was there a single protagonist and even rarer still did you fight AGAINST other heroes (Kain not withstanding). Final Fantasy has always been about working together... As I've stated, this has been explained many times in this thread and others.
#46 Aug 11 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not sure how to quote on this website yet; however, to the guy who said the majority of people do not want PVP for FFXIV, look at this poll that was taken http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/8870-ffxiv-pvp/page__st__160

Only 21-22% flat out stated that they did not want PVP. Granted, this is just one poll with only a little over 1000 people voting, nonetheless, it is a poll of a diversified group that quite frankly expresses their desire for PVP in some form. I for one would like PVP implemented somehow.
#47 Aug 11 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Unless you've actually played the game you can't say what it needs either way. Therefore I label you a fanboi, because you obviously are not objective.
#48 Aug 11 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Eske, Star Breaker wrote:
I realize that this was supposed to be at least semi-facetious, but I have to say that I don't agree with the message or the spirit behind it. FFXIV has already taken some cues from WoW...its not unreasonable to think that there will be other qualities that are worth learning from or adapting further on.

This strikes me as a sort of MMORPG jingoism. If we were inundated with folks clamoring for this game to be WoW, then perhaps I'd understand it more, but that's not currently the case.

This forum doesn't need to go to war with all things WoW. I'd like to think that we can be a little more welcoming and mature than this.

Edited, Aug 11th 2010 3:06pm by Eske


Because WoW is the 10,000 ton giant, it tends to have an impact on every thing around it. A lot of people have had their expectations shaped by WoW and look at any thing which is slower or different than WoW as being inferior, by default. I think the reason you see so much agreement with Mikhalia is because of the backlash against the some times unspoken assumption that the WoW way is the "correct" way rather than simply one way of doing things.

We as gamers have seen too many games that followed the seductive path of disengaging all original thought in favor of doing whatever WoW does. FFXI veterans especially are just wary of having this alien culture infiltrate "their" game any more than necessary, because once the line is crossed it's hard to draw it again.
#49 Aug 11 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Default
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Another moronic thread with an equally retarded OP statement.
#50 Aug 11 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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6,470 posts
KarlHungis the Stupendous wrote:
Eske, Star Breaker wrote:
I realize that this was supposed to be at least semi-facetious, but I have to say that I don't agree with the message or the spirit behind it. FFXIV has already taken some cues from WoW...its not unreasonable to think that there will be other qualities that are worth learning from or adapting further on.

This strikes me as a sort of MMORPG jingoism. If we were inundated with folks clamoring for this game to be WoW, then perhaps I'd understand it more, but that's not currently the case.

This forum doesn't need to go to war with all things WoW. I'd like to think that we can be a little more welcoming and mature than this.

Edited, Aug 11th 2010 3:06pm by Eske


Because WoW is the 10,000 ton giant, it tends to have an impact on every thing around it. A lot of people have had their expectations shaped by WoW and look at any thing which is slower or different than WoW as being inferior, by default. I think the reason you see so much agreement with Mikhalia is because of the backlash against the some times unspoken assumption that the WoW way is the "correct" way rather than simply one way of doing things.

We as gamers have seen too many games that followed the seductive path of disengaging all original thought in favor of doing whatever WoW does. FFXI veterans especially are just wary of having this alien culture infiltrate "their" game any more than necessary, because once the line is crossed it's hard to draw it again.


Yet none of the things that you cite are currently problems in either this forum or in FFXIV.

Railing against them is unwarranted. It attacks an entity that isn't extant here. So what does it accomplish, other than make us seem like biased, aggressive jerks? It may even incite the very group that it seeks to stifle.

No good comes of this.
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#51 Aug 11 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
So you don't want characters with clothes and armor and swords? No magic or combat? No characters even? No towns? Clouds? grass? Water? Smiley: rolleyes
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