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#52 Aug 14 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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You are the best example why games fail or might/will fail. ( in the overall aspect )

Because YOU dont care, others like you ignorant and selfish players also dont care.
Its not about YOU or ME - SE wants to make a game and wanna make money. Its about them. If FFXIV will drop fast in subscribers after some months of release all we have is just a FFXI-2.
The World will ololol about SE once again beeing unable to get their own "this time" bigger piece of cake from the MMO Market and all the realist's will say "told ya" , "if you better had listened to us, we told ya to thousands in the beta forums" while SE will cry in their dark little corner like a baby why they once again missed the finish line.

They are like a little child, doing the same mistake over and over again and learn nothing out of it, but always feel the pain of consequences: he still only gets a little piece of the sweet cake he likes so much.

A bigger Community, a game which is talked about, is a Game which is alife. And even though it attracts all the wow "casual" noobs, you (me) and others FFXI Veterans dont like - they also put their part to the Game.
The World seems more alife with more players, you find better/faster partys, more linkshells, more activity overall.
And everyone would like to see HIS loved Game in TV Media while beeing proud of it as example.

#53UncleRuckusForLife, Posted: Aug 14 2010 at 1:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I do rate you down when you say things I dont agree with or I feel you are being inflammatory BUT i dont care if your name is Green, gold yellow orange blue or white.
#54 Aug 14 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:


Forums full of idiots, nice. I guess since the thread has been lowered to calling names I'll just answer with the best "forum idiot" responce. LOL UMAD BRO?


I'm not male or black.
But I guess you can post that since you clearly have nothing better to say. Also, please continue to rate me down as if I care. I'm guessing you're from WoW, they usually post a lot of stuff like "UMAD?" as if it's witty.
Clearly 3 letter words are too hard to type out in full.


What exactly does being black have to do with anything?

Maybe we should try to have a discussion, like adults, rather than toss around insults, like children. Play nice you two, or i'll put you on time out.
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#55 Aug 14 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Alkerr wrote:

What exactly does being black have to do with anything?



I assume because "bro" some times is short hand for "black man." and he's ranting about "U MAD BRO?"
#56 Aug 14 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis the Prohpet wrote:
Alkerr wrote:

What exactly does being black have to do with anything?



I assume because "bro" some times is short hand for "black man." and he's ranting about "U MAD BRO?"


I live in southern California and Bro is usually an insult. I have never heard it used as a reference for a black person. in fact on urban dictionary, its the exact opposite.
See here : http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro

Still don't get what being black has to do with it.
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#57 Aug 14 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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After reading all of your replies, and thanks for all of your replies! I think the majority of MMORPG players and previous FFXI players have their own general sense of how FFXIV will turn out. A lot of people say "don't judge it, it's only beta" but honestly, the official release is a month away. Sure the beta right now is only a fraction of what the actual game will hold in terms of content but the consensus on play mechanics from those who have tested it seem to all point in the direction of it being clunky. I just can't see the developers fixing so many of these issues by the time it hits retail. If they do it that will be amazing though. I would like to see that happen.

Square-Enix doesn't seem like they are out to make the ultimate Final Fantasy game. For some reason or another they are really set in their ways or maybe they have just built a really tough engine to modify game settings because these basic features such as UI and controls should have been fixed from the get go. Maybe they just need a new team to create FFXIV. Bring in those guys that made FF10 and FF7!

I don't know what it is but I believe that at first FFXIV will have a large player base but not before long will their numbers immediately drop. This game is turning out to be a hardcore style game even though they try to make it as user friendly as possible. I know a lot of people will stand behind this game no matter what but usually those players are die hard Final Fantasy fans or just die hard fantasy MMORPG fans that don't mind logging on for large amounts of time during a day. Not every Final Fantasy fan has that luxury. And most hardcore fans probably don't care. I would like to play the game for a bazillion hours but that's just not realistic when there are other priorities set.

I want to see FFXIV succeed but right now it's leaning towards becoming FFXI-2 more so than it's leaning towards a new fantasy MMORPG called FFXIV. And I'm not sure how people can be OK with that.
#58 Aug 14 2010 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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Alkerr wrote:
KarlHungis the Prohpet wrote:
Alkerr wrote:

What exactly does being black have to do with anything?



I assume because "bro" some times is short hand for "black man." and he's ranting about "U MAD BRO?"


I live in southern California and Bro is usually an insult. I have never heard it used as a reference for a black person. in fact on urban dictionary, its the exact opposite.
See here : http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro

Still don't get what being black has to do with it.


You've really never heard of black men referred to as "brothers"?
#59 Aug 14 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
Mithraspike wrote:
You are the best example why games fail or might/will fail. ( in the overall aspect )

Because YOU dont care, others like you ignorant and selfish players also dont care.
Its not about YOU or ME - SE wants to make a game and wanna make money. Its about them. If FFXIV will drop fast in subscribers after some months of release all we have is just a FFXI-2.
The World will ololol about SE once again beeing unable to get their own "this time" bigger piece of cake from the MMO Market and all the realist's will say "told ya" , "if you better had listened to us, we told ya to thousands in the beta forums" while SE will cry in their dark little corner like a baby why they once again missed the finish line.

They are like a little child, doing the same mistake over and over again and learn nothing out of it, but always feel the pain of consequences: he still only gets a little piece of the sweet cake he likes so much.

A bigger Community, a game which is talked about, is a Game which is alife. And even though it attracts all the wow "casual" noobs, you (me) and others FFXI Veterans dont like - they also put their part to the Game.
The World seems more alife with more players, you find better/faster partys, more linkshells, more activity overall.
And everyone would like to see HIS loved Game in TV Media while beeing proud of it as example.



Personally, I don't care either. There are two things I care about:
1) I want to play a game I like.
2) I want SE to make a profit.

That's it.

I don't care about my game on TV, I don't care about 300 million subscribers, etc...

If I had to choose between a game I kinda like with a ton of people and SE printing money vs game I really like with fewer people and SE making a modest profit, I strongly prefer the second.

I don't need my game to be popular to validate me playing it. I don't even consider popularity as a reason for playing a game. I'm going to play a game I like, and that's ALL I care about. If making it popular would mean adding features I don't like, then I'm fine with it not being popular.

Now I still think that there should be the ability to rebind keys on the keyboard and I still think the game should have more customizable controls, I'm sure that there are plenty of things that could use some fixing.

But I couldn't give two ***** about how popular my game is. Maybe -you- need to eat where everyone is eating and wear what everyone is wearing and listen to what everyone is listening to and play what everyone else is playing... I can think for myself instead of being a sheep, thanks. I don't need a game to be popular before I can enjoy it, nor is my enjoyment of the game at all relevant to the popularity of it.

Honestly, I don't get the cyclical logic behind "Everyone should like popular things because they're popular and no one should like unpopular things because they're unpopular".
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#60 Aug 14 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis the Prohpet wrote:
Alkerr wrote:
KarlHungis the Prohpet wrote:
Alkerr wrote:

What exactly does being black have to do with anything?



I assume because "bro" some times is short hand for "black man." and he's ranting about "U MAD BRO?"


I live in southern California and Bro is usually an insult. I have never heard it used as a reference for a black person. in fact on urban dictionary, its the exact opposite.
See here : http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro

Still don't get what being black has to do with it.


You've really never heard of black men referred to as "brothers"?


Bro and Brotha are completely different terms.

Brotha: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=brotha

Bro: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro
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#61 Aug 14 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I live in southern California and Bro is usually an insult. I have never heard it used as a reference for a black person. in fact on urban dictionary, its the exact opposite.
See here : http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro

Still don't get what being black has to do with it.


I've lived in Southern California for about 2 years, I've lived in New York City for just over a year, I've lived in Chicago for about 1 1/2 year, and Pittsburgh, Philly, Florida, and several other places.

Never once have I heard "Bro" being an insult or even remotely negative, NEVER ONCE.

It's far more commonly used in place of buddy or bud when referring to someone you don't know. I've never heard it used without having even a little bit of respect.

Quote:
But I couldn't give two sh*ts about how popular my game is. Maybe -you- need to eat where everyone is eating and wear what everyone is wearing and listen to what everyone is listening to and play what everyone else is playing... I can think for myself instead of being a sheep, thanks. I don't need a game to be popular before I can enjoy it, nor is my enjoyment of the game at all relevant to the popularity of it.

Honestly, I don't get the cyclical logic behind "Everyone should like popular things because they're popular and no one should like unpopular things because they're unpopular".


Preach on Mik! I can already hear some people think "That's ba-a-a-ad"

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 5:50pm by VayMasters

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 5:50pm by VayMasters
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#62 Aug 14 2010 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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This thread amuses me.
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#63 Aug 14 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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VayMasters wrote:
Quote:
I live in southern California and Bro is usually an insult. I have never heard it used as a reference for a black person. in fact on urban dictionary, its the exact opposite.
See here : http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bro

Still don't get what being black has to do with it.


I've lived in Southern California for about 2 years, I've lived in New York City for just over a year, I've lived in Chicago for about 1 1/2 year, and Pittsburgh, Philly, Florida, and several other places.

Never once have I heard "Bro" being an insult or even remotely negative, NEVER ONCE.

It's far more commonly used in place of buddy or bud when referring to someone you don't know. I've never heard it used without having even a little bit of respect.


We are really getting off track here lol.

There is a difference between "Hey whats up, bro." and "That guy is a Bro"

I posted the link but here is what is considered a Bro, at least by people I know:

usually white young male, found commonly in places like san bernardino county in california, as well as orange county. always, without exception, drive big lifted trucks, often white. has the name of their crew or whatever in big white letters on their back window (ie, "skin", "metal mulisha". wear: trucker hats off center, plug earrings, sunglasses, wife beater shirt or no shirt, sagging ******* shorts, high black socks, skater shoes or those black corduroy slipper things, have a lot of tatoos of things like stars.
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#64 Aug 14 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFIiPS6E2yU
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#65 Aug 14 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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If there is one thing I have learned in this thread... is that people think the success of an MMORPG must be tied to WoW style numbers. If FFXIV can maintain a 500k active subscription base or around there I am sure SE will be exstatic. That is far and a way a success in the world of MMORPGs and FFXI itself was a rousing success that is only marred by the popular phenomenon of WoW and couple other MMORPGs from Korea. The game will be a success with 500k subscription base, end of discussion. They will continue to support the game, they will not put any more effort into the game if they had a million subscription base, they will just streamline it to straight profits for the company. Instead of worrying about the 'success' of the games userbase in comparison to juggernauts like WoW you should be asking what YOU want from it so you will enjoy it. An MMORPG doesn't have to be for everyone, **** the very nature of the genre makes it impossible to please everyone.
#66 Aug 14 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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That's not "a Bro", this is "a bro"....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfONNfAjyrc

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 5:52pm by VayMasters
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#67 Aug 14 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yll wrote:
After reading all of your replies, and thanks for all of your replies! I think the majority of MMORPG players and previous FFXI players have their own general sense of how FFXIV will turn out. A lot of people say "don't judge it, it's only beta" but honestly, the official release is a month away. Sure the beta right now is only a fraction of what the actual game will hold in terms of content but the consensus on play mechanics from those who have tested it seem to all point in the direction of it being clunky. I just can't see the developers fixing so many of these issues by the time it hits retail. If they do it that will be amazing though. I would like to see that happen.


To step away from XIV, the Halo Reach beta was a month older than the current build that was in development when the beta went live. It's not uncommon for devs to release an older build. It's not like this is the product as-is and they're just sitting around waiting for feedback; I'm pretty confident that they have most of the bugs worked out in their build, and are only introducing things to the beta build a little at a time to see if more bugs come up.

Yll wrote:
Maybe they just need a new team to create FFXIV. Bring in those guys that made FF10 and FF7!


If that entails bringing back the rabid fanboy/fangirl crowd that came with those two titles, **** no. FF7 and FF10 fanatics are horrible. They're almost as bad as Halo and CoD fanatics.

Yll wrote:
I don't know what it is but I believe that at first FFXIV will have a large player base but not before long will their numbers immediately drop. This game is turning out to be a hardcore style game even though they try to make it as user friendly as possible. I know a lot of people will stand behind this game no matter what but usually those players are die hard Final Fantasy fans or just die hard fantasy MMORPG fans that don't mind logging on for large amounts of time during a day. Not every Final Fantasy fan has that luxury. And most hardcore fans probably don't care. I would like to play the game for a bazillion hours but that's just not realistic when there are other priorities set.


The most important thing is not how many people play at the start but how many people are playing a year from now. So long as they have enough players to make a profit, anything over that is extraneous. Nice, but extraneous.

Yll wrote:
I want to see FFXIV succeed but right now it's leaning towards becoming FFXI-2 more so than it's leaning towards a new fantasy MMORPG called FFXIV. And I'm not sure how people can be OK with that.


As I've said before in the topic, I was hoping FFXIV would be FFXI-2. They've changed a lot of stuff that I'll have to get used to, but I'd rather play a game that I like than a game that everyone but me likes. If everyone else likes it, that's preferable, but if I don't like the game, I'm going to quit and I really don't care how popular it is.

Tell me right now, if you HAD to pick between "a game you like with a reasonable sized player base" -OR- "a game you don't like with a huge player base that is all over the media", which one would you play? "A combination" or "A little of both" isn't an option; sure, it's preferable but I'm saying if you had to pick one or the other, which one would it be? My guess would be the first, right? Don't we all want to play a game that we like? I mean, I can't imagine someone actually coming out and saying "I know I hate this game, but everyone else plays it so I am playing it too".

We all want a game that we will want to play, and I think it's a fair statement to say that for each of us, we would consider things we want to see to be more important to us than things we don't want to see.
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#68 Aug 14 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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croythegreat wrote:
If there is one thing I have learned in this thread... is that people think the success of an MMORPG must be tied to WoW style numbers. If FFXIV can maintain a 500k active subscription base or around there I am sure SE will be exstatic. That is far and a way a success in the world of MMORPGs and FFXI itself was a rousing success that is only marred by the popular phenomenon of WoW and couple other MMORPGs from Korea. The game will be a success with 500k subscription base, end of discussion. They will continue to support the game, they will not put any more effort into the game if they had a million subscription base, they will just streamline it to straight profits for the company. Instead of worrying about the 'success' of the games userbase in comparison to juggernauts like WoW you should be asking what YOU want from it so you will enjoy it. An MMORPG doesn't have to be for everyone, **** the very nature of the genre makes it impossible to please everyone.


Exactly, I've ranted on this at length, and I will never understand the logic behind why "a product can only be good if it is extremely popular". Especially when you consider that FFXI has less players than a game like WoW and has produced MORE expansions in LESS time. FFXI averages one expansion per 23 months and WoW averages one expansion per 26 months. Do the math if you like.

Indeed I agree with your post: The object should be to find a group of players and give them something that other MMORPGS do not give them, not to try to give everyone what every other MMORPG on the market already has. It's a given that you can't please everyone, so find a group of people you CAN please and focus on them.

Still not saying that the game couldn't use some changes here or there like customizable keys, something that PC games have had since the 90s, but it doesn't NEED to appeal to everyone to be a success. I really don't give a **** if it's "popular", just that I enjoy it, and that it's successful.
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#69 Aug 14 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Yll wrote:

Square-Enix doesn't seem like they are out to make the ultimate Final Fantasy game. For some reason or another they are really set in their ways or maybe they have just built a really tough engine to modify game settings because these basic features such as UI and controls should have been fixed from the get go. Maybe they just need a new team to create FFXIV. Bring in those guys that made FF10 and FF7!

I don't know what it is but I believe that at first FFXIV will have a large player base but not before long will their numbers immediately drop. This game is turning out to be a hardcore style game even though they try to make it as user friendly as possible. I know a lot of people will stand behind this game no matter what but usually those players are die hard Final Fantasy fans or just die hard fantasy MMORPG fans that don't mind logging on for large amounts of time during a day. Not every Final Fantasy fan has that luxury. And most hardcore fans probably don't care. I would like to play the game for a bazillion hours but that's just not realistic when there are other priorities set.

I want to see FFXIV succeed but right now it's leaning towards becoming FFXI-2 more so than it's leaning towards a new fantasy MMORPG called FFXIV. And I'm not sure how people can be OK with that.


MMORPG's are in essence hardcore games. There are a plethora of 'immediate gratification' games on the market. ie: CoD and other first-person shooters.

SE has stated they are trying to cater more towards a casual crowd. Which is fine, but don't be under any illusion there won't be hardcore content to cater to those who have more than 30 minutes a day to play.
What we currently know for sure is that this game will graphically be the best MMORPG ever released. The rest is all speculation. SE is keeping almost everything under wraps. FFXI-2 is fine by a lot of people's standards, many people enjoyed that game, myself included. I dislike 99% of games on the market currently, but I don't go around to those games' forums and bash the game. The games aren't to my taste so I disregard them entirely.

What I don't understand is people who dislike this genre of game, or the time required to play the game at its highest level, yet try to turn it into something they like. If someone flat out doesn't like this genre or this game, just go away.
There is a community of people out there like myself who enjoy this sort of game. If I didn't, I certainly wouldn't spend hours in this forum every day reading info.
If I went to the Call of Duty forums and asked for them to implement moogles and chocobos into their game, how would that be viewed?
For that reason, don't come to a FFXIV forum and post that you want "x" and "y" because it's cool in another game.
SE won't release a game with terrible controls and no content, that would make absolutely no sense, so why even bother opening a discussion on something so rediculous.

Imagine the nerve of SE creating a Final Fantasy MMO that will cater to fans of online Final Fantasy games! /eyeroll
#70 Aug 14 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Karl is just saying the real, naked truth here.
You can see it everywhere on youtube ( RocsLock ) in the videos.
This game is made for PC but SE is @#%^ing stuck in their "little past console" World with controls and UI.

Its little things what makes a Game succed and its little things that makes a Game fail.
With no proper UI/Control/Interface controls the Game WILL fail in the long run. It will become a 2nd FFXI, might start good with like 2M players but prolly losing a lot fast.

Everyone see's that, everyone who took their shiny pro-SE Sunglasses off, beeing open minded with a at most as possible neutral look at the game. Its just the ppl who always hype Game's which are still optimistic and unexperienced with SE.
This is not a hater post - its the @#%^ing truth about SE. You cant be optimistic with them, that they will fix the heavy control issues until release.

And then the "real market", the casual gamer will go away just like they did in FFXI because its not newcomer friendly.
Ya all thing: "good, that way all the kids are not coming from wow to us" and such.
But it seems SE is the only company on this planet who " dont wanna make as much money as they can " by serving the casual market ( this INCLUDES @#%^ING JUMPING, PLAIN SIMPLE, NAKED FACT - the casual market COMMANDS THIS to have ) - it seems more they are like: "we make games we want, if you dont like it that way, **** off haha...we dont need your money (atleast we have our 500 - 800k its ok)"

Hence FFXI is death because no one talks about in the media/other Forums. PPL in discussions about general MMO's say: wtf ? this game is still alive ? when it comes to players asking what MMO to start on.
Even though the last count is we are @ 500k user which is like place 4-6th in MMO market.

PPL in such Forums then answer: there is WOW which you can play, AION, WAR, HDRO ...but rarely you see someone mention FFXI and guess what why ? No because all of them are FFXI haters, its because they dont even know/thing that there are still some 100k player playing it. Same is about to happen with FFXIV too once all the casuals left because " its not a modern western type MMO " and " lol no jumping ? im out ! "
Had this in the official german WOW Offtopic Forum in a thread about FFXIV where i posted my experiences.
And later on i said: btw forgot to mention " no jumping ".
The next 2 Posts from two different Users were: "canceled my order - this is game is death for me" and "canceled my order, hence why there are still game with no jumping ? movement killer! "


Behind this almost incomprehensible chunk of literature is some serious truth.
#71 Aug 14 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Default
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Sloannn wrote:
Quote:
Karl is just saying the real, naked truth here.
You can see it everywhere on youtube ( RocsLock ) in the videos.
This game is made for PC but SE is @#%^ing stuck in their "little past console" World with controls and UI.

Its little things what makes a Game succed and its little things that makes a Game fail.
With no proper UI/Control/Interface controls the Game WILL fail in the long run. It will become a 2nd FFXI, might start good with like 2M players but prolly losing a lot fast.

Everyone see's that, everyone who took their shiny pro-SE Sunglasses off, beeing open minded with a at most as possible neutral look at the game. Its just the ppl who always hype Game's which are still optimistic and unexperienced with SE.
This is not a hater post - its the @#%^ing truth about SE. You cant be optimistic with them, that they will fix the heavy control issues until release.

And then the "real market", the casual gamer will go away just like they did in FFXI because its not newcomer friendly.
Ya all thing: "good, that way all the kids are not coming from wow to us" and such.
But it seems SE is the only company on this planet who " dont wanna make as much money as they can " by serving the casual market ( this INCLUDES @#%^ING JUMPING, PLAIN SIMPLE, NAKED FACT - the casual market COMMANDS THIS to have ) - it seems more they are like: "we make games we want, if you dont like it that way, **** off haha...we dont need your money (atleast we have our 500 - 800k its ok)"

Hence FFXI is death because no one talks about in the media/other Forums. PPL in discussions about general MMO's say: wtf ? this game is still alive ? when it comes to players asking what MMO to start on.
Even though the last count is we are @ 500k user which is like place 4-6th in MMO market.

PPL in such Forums then answer: there is WOW which you can play, AION, WAR, HDRO ...but rarely you see someone mention FFXI and guess what why ? No because all of them are FFXI haters, its because they dont even know/thing that there are still some 100k player playing it. Same is about to happen with FFXIV too once all the casuals left because " its not a modern western type MMO " and " lol no jumping ? im out ! "
Had this in the official german WOW Offtopic Forum in a thread about FFXIV where i posted my experiences.
And later on i said: btw forgot to mention " no jumping ".
The next 2 Posts from two different Users were: "canceled my order - this is game is death for me" and "canceled my order, hence why there are still game with no jumping ? movement killer! "


Behind this almost incomprehensible chunk of literature is some serious truth.


Wish I didnt agree but I do.
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#72 Aug 14 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yll wrote:
From what I've seen so far the beta combat system is way faster than the alpha however it still seems awfully slow and boring. Most likely when a character reaches higher levels, combat may open up a bit more with access to more skills, fighting enemies just has to be more exciting but even then, the combat just seems too stale right now I don't know if it will be any different by the time we reach "endgame."


FFXIV Archer combat YouTube video

This is slow to you? I think combat pacing seems just fine, even considering that this is at low levels. Like other posters have pointed out, the first 20 or so levels for most jobs in FFXI were rather dull. It wasn't until level 30 that each job started to shine after they started getting important class specific abilities. This is just me, but I'm not even sure if I'd be able to keep up with combat pace if it was too much faster than what's shown in that video. In fact, one of my minor concerns with how gameplay is being presented is that everyone's going to be too busy pressing buttons in the middle of a fight to be able to type out a quick message to the party. As an example, what if your group is fighting a baddie and something unexpected happens. Will the party leader(s) be able to stop pressing the attack button long enough to type out a quick strategy to change the outcome, like "regroup back at x point" or "everyone throw a heal on the tank!" etc.

Can you give me an example of combat that is appropriately fast to you?

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 6:24pm by Griffindorr
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#73 Aug 14 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
Yll wrote:

Square-Enix doesn't seem like they are out to make the ultimate Final Fantasy game. For some reason or another they are really set in their ways or maybe they have just built a really tough engine to modify game settings because these basic features such as UI and controls should have been fixed from the get go. Maybe they just need a new team to create FFXIV. Bring in those guys that made FF10 and FF7!

I don't know what it is but I believe that at first FFXIV will have a large player base but not before long will their numbers immediately drop. This game is turning out to be a hardcore style game even though they try to make it as user friendly as possible. I know a lot of people will stand behind this game no matter what but usually those players are die hard Final Fantasy fans or just die hard fantasy MMORPG fans that don't mind logging on for large amounts of time during a day. Not every Final Fantasy fan has that luxury. And most hardcore fans probably don't care. I would like to play the game for a bazillion hours but that's just not realistic when there are other priorities set.

I want to see FFXIV succeed but right now it's leaning towards becoming FFXI-2 more so than it's leaning towards a new fantasy MMORPG called FFXIV. And I'm not sure how people can be OK with that.


MMORPG's are in essence hardcore games. There are a plethora of 'immediate gratification' games on the market. ie: CoD and other first-person shooters.

SE has stated they are trying to cater more towards a casual crowd. Which is fine, but don't be under any illusion there won't be hardcore content to cater to those who have more than 30 minutes a day to play.
What we currently know for sure is that this game will graphically be the best MMORPG ever released. The rest is all speculation. SE is keeping almost everything under wraps. FFXI-2 is fine by a lot of people's standards, many people enjoyed that game, myself included. I dislike 99% of games on the market currently, but I don't go around to those games' forums and bash the game. The games aren't to my taste so I disregard them entirely.

What I don't understand is people who dislike this genre of game, or the time required to play the game at its highest level, yet try to turn it into something they like. If someone flat out doesn't like this genre or this game, just go away.
There is a community of people out there like myself who enjoy this sort of game. If I didn't, I certainly wouldn't spend hours in this forum every day reading info.
If I went to the Call of Duty forums and asked for them to implement moogles and chocobos into their game, how would that be viewed?
For that reason, don't come to a FFXIV forum and post that you want "x" and "y" because it's cool in another game.
SE won't release a game with terrible controls and no content, that would make absolutely no sense, so why even bother opening a discussion on something so rediculous.

Imagine the nerve of SE creating a Final Fantasy MMO that will cater to fans of online Final Fantasy games! /eyeroll


OK, first off SE is not some never do wrong company. They have messed up plenty of times in the past)(FF X-2, XIII) Yes they have hit a few home runs, but that doesnt make them immune from making mistakes on FFXIV.

Yes a lot of people love FFXI, but guess what, it's not perfect. Everyone is talking about what they would like to see implemented because even the most polished game could use improvements somewhere. Some other MMO's may not have been that great but maybe they had some feature that really stands out. Nothing wrong from learning from another game to help make your product better.
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#74 Aug 14 2010 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
But it seems SE is the only company on this planet who " dont wanna make as much money as they can " by serving the casual market ( this INCLUDES @#%^ING JUMPING, PLAIN SIMPLE, NAKED FACT - the casual market COMMANDS THIS to have )


Anyone who would not play a game because it lacks an unneeded feature that is irrelevant to the game is a player I won't miss. Dragon Age didn't have jumping either, incidentally, and it got great reviews.
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#75 Aug 14 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Jumping is for action games not RPG's. If you think jumping belongs in an RPG, you don't understand the genre.
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#76 Aug 14 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oenos wrote:
Jumping is for action games not RPG's. If you think jumping belongs in an RPG, you don't understand the genre.


The fault of this statement (and also the truth behind it) is that a lot of players expect RPGs to be action games, or try to turn them into action games.
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#77 Aug 14 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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Alkerr wrote:


OK, first off SE is not some never do wrong company. They have messed up plenty of times in the past)(FF X-2, XIII) Yes they have hit a few home runs, but that doesnt make them immune from making mistakes on FFXIV.

Yes a lot of people love FFXI, but guess what, it's not perfect. Everyone is talking about what they would like to see implemented because even the most polished game could use improvements somewhere. Some other MMO's may not have been that great but maybe they had some feature that really stands out. Nothing wrong from learning from another game to help make your product better.


No game is perfect, I agree.
My main point is that SE does know what they are doing. They've been doing the online thing for a decade or so.
To think that in this day and age, they would release a game with clunky controls, a horrible interface, and no content is absurd.
I suppose if the game is released, and all these things are present, you could tell me "I told you so". But I don't see that happening. Do you think all their in-house testers are sitting around unable to play due to horrible controls and not playing due to lack of content? Then passing this information onto the developers saying "We're good to go!"

What some people view as 'mess-ups', other people view as excellent. I'm sure there were plenty of people that enjoyed X-2 and XIII.
Because I didn't like WoW, does that make the game a mess-up?

When dealing with the unknown, and trying to come to a conclusion on something, it's best to try and think of the most plausible explanation.
To me, it's not plausible that SE has no idea what they're doing.
#78 Aug 14 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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I like my RPG's more like Final Fantasy and Zelda and less like Ghouls and Ghosts and Gauntlet lol

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 6:39pm by Oenos
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#79 Aug 14 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
My main point is that SE does know what they are doing. They've been doing the online thing for a decade or so.
To think that in this day and age, they would release a game with clunky controls, a horrible interface, and no content is absurd.
I suppose if the game is released, and all these things are present, you could tell me "I told you so". But I don't see that happening. Do you think all their in-house testers are sitting around unable to play due to horrible controls and not playing due to lack of content? Then passing this information onto the developers saying "We're good to go!"


Personally, I think the UI and the content are fine, so I'm only focusing on controls. Also, I'm not in the beta so I have no opinion on them yet.

I mostly agree with your points, but I want to counter this one, from the perspective of someone who has done programming:

Programs always make sense to the person who designs them. I'm pretty sure that the devs have designed the controls in a way that made sense to THEM and THEY have gotten used to the controls and believe they are fine.

The question is, are the controls fine to EVERYONE ELSE? Part of writing a program or a game is making sure that the UI and controls are intuitive to the users. That's why ability to customize controls is important; basically, the devs have customized the controls in a way that made sense to them and called it a day, it sounds like. I'll take a minor example ans say, what if instead of WASD, a game used SZXC for movement? I mean, it's just a tiny change, but that would **** SOOOO many people.

I'm in agreement with your general ideas that SE shouldn't try to cater to everyone in general, but I think that controls that are customizable are extremely important. Sure, you can tell your users to "get used to it"; some will and some wont, but you shouldn't HAVE to tell them to just get used to it.

Again, agree with the general ideas you've said but I disagree on the controls thing. Games need customizable controls. They just do.
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#80 Aug 14 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Oenos wrote:
I like my RPG's more like Final Fantasy and Zelda and less like Ghouls and Ghosts and Gauntlet lol


Lol that was obscure!
I had to Google that game, never heard of it.

I missed the whole Nintendo gaming generation! ><
#81 Aug 14 2010 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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Well well well. My take on ffxiv is one of wait and see. I absolutely loved ffxi and judging by my sig any that has played can safely conclude that I spent quite a great deal of time playing and yet still didnt do everything.

I think also SE is known for taking what you love and occasionally turning it on its ear. As far as ffxiii goes I loved it. People complained.."its linear". I say if you actually played the **** game you would see that due to its story you really dont need to go to meaningless towns to talk to meaningless npcs. The story and voice acting was top notch, with some really intensely emotional scenes. Everyone is gonna have their gripes which is what makes each person's experiences unique. I just chalk it up to the memory of being an action game player and playing my first rpg which I wont date myself by mentioning. I remember being bored with it and saying, "Man why do I have to wait my turn to attack I want to hit the monster now dang it!!" Until it was explained to me "how" to actually play by not directly controlling each member but to simply tell them what and how to attack.

FFxiii was an example of SE taking something you are used to and turning it on its ear. The battle system sometimes would more accurately resemble a real fight more than standing in a perfect line fighting monsters that did the same thing. "Places everyone!" It wasnt perfect then but we enjoyed playing didnt we? FFxiii was the first in the series where at times I forgot I was playing a standard rpg because the action was so intense. It did however have a learning curve but once you got the hang of it the battles really had and eb and flow to them.

Finally I know everyone has different likes and dislikes and a secret and not so secret wishlist. Wait and see I doubt many of us will be disappointed. See you guys online eventually and prepare to have another 8 or more years of good times with the friends you will undoubtedly meet online old and new alike.
#82 Aug 14 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
ShonaSeraph wrote:
My main point is that SE does know what they are doing. They've been doing the online thing for a decade or so.
To think that in this day and age, they would release a game with clunky controls, a horrible interface, and no content is absurd.
I suppose if the game is released, and all these things are present, you could tell me "I told you so". But I don't see that happening. Do you think all their in-house testers are sitting around unable to play due to horrible controls and not playing due to lack of content? Then passing this information onto the developers saying "We're good to go!"


Personally, I think the UI and the content are fine, so I'm only focusing on controls. Also, I'm not in the beta so I have no opinion on them yet.

I mostly agree with your points, but I want to counter this one, from the perspective of someone who has done programming:

Programs always make sense to the person who designs them. I'm pretty sure that the devs have designed the controls in a way that made sense to THEM and THEY have gotten used to the controls and believe they are fine.

The question is, are the controls fine to EVERYONE ELSE? Part of writing a program or a game is making sure that the UI and controls are intuitive to the users. That's why ability to customize controls is important; basically, the devs have customized the controls in a way that made sense to them and called it a day, it sounds like. I'll take a minor example ans say, what if instead of WASD, a game used SZXC for movement? I mean, it's just a tiny change, but that would @#%^ SOOOO many people.

I'm in agreement with your general ideas that SE shouldn't try to cater to everyone in general, but I think that controls that are customizable are extremely important. Sure, you can tell your users to "get used to it"; some will and some wont, but you shouldn't HAVE to tell them to just get used to it.

Again, agree with the general ideas you've said but I disagree on the controls thing. Games need customizable controls. They just do.


Oh I agree. And this game will.
I'm not in the Beta either but was able to play under a friends' account a few times.
I didn't really have any problems with the controls. Just the camera movement not being controlled by the arrow keys like I was used to in FFXI.
I got this off the FFXIVCore homepage...

System Related:
Adjustments to the main menu.

•The delay experienced when opening and closing windows will be reduced ¨ Exiting query windows with the cancel button will be made possible ¨ Adjustments to chat controls.
•Using shortcut keys to reply will be made possible ¨ Sending tells to a targeted player will be simplified ¨ The directional keys to control the camera will be changed in order to improve gameplay using the keyboard..
•Closing the main menu with the mouse will be made possible.


They're resolving keyboard issues probably even as we speak/type. I have no problem believing control will be great come release for mouse/keyboard/gamepad.
Maybe I'm just a dreamer and a believer that a glass is always half-full, but I think it's better than always being a pessimist, you know.
#83 Aug 14 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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When I played FFXI through the early to mid "noughties", I was a regular on ZAM forums, I left ZAM when I quit FFXI and lost my membership details so have had to start out again about a month ago with a new password when I came back ahead of FFXIV's release.

I was a massive fan of FFXI, and I am very, very excited about the coming release of FFXIV. If the game is as good as I hope it will be, I will play the game for many years.

I say this to avoid being called a SE hater by what follows in this post.

Both the WoW community and the FFXIV community can be arrogant fanboys. WoW was a fun, easy going, simple game that I enjoyed for a while as it was easy to play whilst looking after my kids, cooking dinner and generally sitting around watching TV. The average player had an IQ of45, and very little video game skills. Not all players were like that, but that was the average. Blizzard made the game easier at every update. They did this in order to appeal to an ever broader audience and it made the game become increasingly frustrating for those of us that actually wanted more from our game than a simple, press three buttons in order - win fight - get exp, level up. In the end, I left in disgust. Many millions still play for exactly the reason I quit.

Now, the FFXI community is somewhat pompous. Any suggestion that could genuinely help the development of FFXIV, such as a practical mouse and keyboard control system similar to that used in WoW is met with - if you want to play WoW, go play WoW and dont interrupt us sophisticated gamers with our silly dual analogue control stick or single keyboard gaming controls. The reality is the gamer should have a choice of how to play, and the developer should provide options that suit the various players. I dont want to play WoW. I want to play FFXIV - I just want to be able to control the game the way that I want to control it.

People on these forums need to be able to hear constructive criticism about FFXIV without throwing their hands up in the air and saying - if you dont like it, tough - go and play WoW.

It is a sign of weakness and insecurity when constructive criticism is not accepted. Why cant people have a view on a potential area of improvement in the game without getting called a hater by the FF community. SE make mistakes, same as every other developer and failing to engage in sensible discussion just because they have been criticised makes FF people look as bad as the WoW fanboys.

Why do the hardcore FFXI keyboard users fear the mouse/keyboard control set up. As long as they can still use their keyboard or console controller method, why should it matter if another alternative is also provided. Why should SE not cater to a broader audience. When FFXI was relased, there were less mmo's around. Now, FFXIV will be born in a more competitive environment. If you want this game to have the content FFXI had, it will need a decent audience. Why not let in some newbs that never played FFXI. The way people post on these boards often makes it look like some people only want FFXI players in FFXIV. Why not welcome a whole generation of new gamers to our game. Why not be as inclusive and non-elitist as we can be, it will benefit the game in the end - and that will benefit all of us.

RANT OVER!
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#84 Aug 14 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
Oenos wrote:
I like my RPG's more like Final Fantasy and Zelda and less like Ghouls and Ghosts and Gauntlet lol


Lol that was obscure!
I had to Google that game, never heard of it.

I missed the whole Nintendo gaming generation! ><


I'm 35 and Gauntlet was one of the greatest games of my childhood. Played it on the ZX Spectrum 48k (I think, though it might have been the amstrad cpc464).

My generation!
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#85 Aug 14 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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I think Gauntlet: Dark Legacy was probably my favorite Gauntlet.
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#86 Aug 14 2010 at 7:08 PM Rating: Default
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HallieXIV wrote:
When .

Now, the FFXI community is somewhat pompous. Any suggestion that could genuinely help the development of FFXIV, such as a practical mouse and keyboard control system similar to that used in WoW is met with - if you want to play WoW, go play WoW and dont interrupt us sophisticated gamers with our silly dual analogue control stick or single keyboard gaming controls. The reality is the gamer should have a choice of how to play, and the developer should provide options that suit the various players. I dont want to play WoW. I want to play FFXIV - I just want to be able to control the game the way that I want to control it.

People on these forums need to be able to hear constructive criticism about FFXIV without throwing their hands up in the air and saying - if you dont like it, tough - go and play WoW.

It is a sign of weakness and insecurity when constructive criticism is not accepted. Why cant people have a view on a potential area of improvement in the game without getting called a hater by the FF community. SE make mistakes, same as every other developer and failing to engage in sensible discussion just because they have been criticised makes FF people look as bad as the WoW fanboys.

Why do the hardcore FFXI keyboard users fear the mouse/keyboard control set up. As long as they can still use their keyboard or console controller method, why should it matter if another alternative is also provided. Why should SE not cater to a broader audience. When FFXI was relased, there were less mmo's around. Now, FFXIV will be born in a more competitive environment. If you want this game to have the content FFXI had, it will need a decent audience. Why not let in some newbs that never played FFXI. The way people post on these boards often makes it look like some people only want FFXI players in FFXIV. Why not welcome a whole generation of new gamers to our game. Why not be as inclusive and non-elitist as we can be, it will benefit the game in the end - and that will benefit all of us.

RANT OVER!


Agreed
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#87 Aug 14 2010 at 7:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Now, the FFXI community is somewhat pompous. Any suggestion that could genuinely help the development of FFXIV, such as a practical mouse and keyboard control system similar to that used in WoW is met with - if you want to play WoW, go play WoW and dont interrupt us sophisticated gamers with our silly dual analogue control stick or single keyboard gaming controls. The reality is the gamer should have a choice of how to play, and the developer should provide options that suit the various players. I dont want to play WoW. I want to play FFXIV - I just want to be able to control the game the way that I want to control it.

People on these forums need to be able to hear constructive criticism about FFXIV without throwing their hands up in the air and saying - if you dont like it, tough - go and play WoW.

It is a sign of weakness and insecurity when constructive criticism is not accepted. Why cant people have a view on a potential area of improvement in the game without getting called a hater by the FF community. SE make mistakes, same as every other developer and failing to engage in sensible discussion just because they have been criticised makes FF people look as bad as the WoW fanboys.

Why do the hardcore FFXI keyboard users fear the mouse/keyboard control set up. As long as they can still use their keyboard or console controller method, why should it matter if another alternative is also provided. Why should SE not cater to a broader audience. When FFXI was relased, there were less mmo's around. Now, FFXIV will be born in a more competitive environment. If you want this game to have the content FFXI had, it will need a decent audience. Why not let in some newbs that never played FFXI. The way people post on these boards often makes it look like some people only want FFXI players in FFXIV. Why not welcome a whole generation of new gamers to our game. Why not be as inclusive and non-elitist as we can be, it will benefit the game in the end - and that will benefit all of us.


There is nothing wrong with wanting different control schemes. I believe if possible they should try to make it easier for other people to play the game with whatever setup. However what I take a difference to is opinion used as fact. "FFXIV MUST have good keyboard and Mouse or it will fail" where as most of that same PC community won't give the same thought to the gamepad controler. They see it as an unneccesary peripherial so when a game like FFXIV or FFXI comes along that supports it as EQUAL value to mouse and keyboard, they think something is inheritantly wrong with the game and its developers. "They don't know what we want, they are stupid if they believe differently". There are legitimate concerns with the mouse and its responsiveness so far with FFXIV beta (for one they should be using a hardware mouse or at least give the option). But this isn't a PC game, its a PC and Console game, and as such the UI is tweaked so both groups can play it competetantly and equally. A lot of the comments in regards to problems with the mouse and what they want to see changed on the mouse goes against the very nature of the UI they intend to make. They have actually said as such on the forums itself shortly before releasing beta 3.

I'm not in the belief that any particular controller is inferior or better then another. I learn to use what is given to me and if I don't like it I complain and leave. I don't hold it against a community if they prefer differently. **** I'd like WoW to at least acknowledge something other then keyboard and mouse even just as another source to map keybinds but I don't get that option. So while the same community that is ostracizing FFXIV for its bad mouse control, they backs it up by selecting games that are even more narrowminded on controls usage then it is. If they don't change the UI much that allows for better mouse controls, then I guess this game isn't for those people. I don't want that to sound pompous its just the way they designed the game. It's a PC and Console game and not an out right PC game.

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 9:47pm by croythegreat
#88 Aug 14 2010 at 7:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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croythegreat wrote:
Quote:
Now, the FFXI community is somewhat pompous. Any suggestion that could genuinely help the development of FFXIV, such as a practical mouse and keyboard control system similar to that used in WoW is met with - if you want to play WoW, go play WoW and dont interrupt us sophisticated gamers with our silly dual analogue control stick or single keyboard gaming controls. The reality is the gamer should have a choice of how to play, and the developer should provide options that suit the various players. I dont want to play WoW. I want to play FFXIV - I just want to be able to control the game the way that I want to control it.

People on these forums need to be able to hear constructive criticism about FFXIV without throwing their hands up in the air and saying - if you dont like it, tough - go and play WoW.

It is a sign of weakness and insecurity when constructive criticism is not accepted. Why cant people have a view on a potential area of improvement in the game without getting called a hater by the FF community. SE make mistakes, same as every other developer and failing to engage in sensible discussion just because they have been criticised makes FF people look as bad as the WoW fanboys.

Why do the hardcore FFXI keyboard users fear the mouse/keyboard control set up. As long as they can still use their keyboard or console controller method, why should it matter if another alternative is also provided. Why should SE not cater to a broader audience. When FFXI was relased, there were less mmo's around. Now, FFXIV will be born in a more competitive environment. If you want this game to have the content FFXI had, it will need a decent audience. Why not let in some newbs that never played FFXI. The way people post on these boards often makes it look like some people only want FFXI players in FFXIV. Why not welcome a whole generation of new gamers to our game. Why not be as inclusive and non-elitist as we can be, it will benefit the game in the end - and that will benefit all of us.


There is nothing wrong with wanting different control schemes. I believe if possible they should try to make it easier for other people to play the game with whatever setup. However what I take a difference to is opinion used as fact. "FFXIV MUST have good keyboard and Mouse or it will fail" where as most of that same PC community won't give the same thought to the gamepad controler. They see it as an unneccesary peripherial so when a game like FFXIV or FFXI comes along that supports it as EQUAL value to mouse and keyboard, they think something is inheritantly wrong with the game and its developers. "They don't know what we want, they are stupid if they believe differently". There are legitimate concerns with the mouse and its responsiveness so far with FFXIV beta (for one they should be using a hardware mouse or at least give the option). But this isn't a PC game, its a PC and Console game, and as such the UI is tweaked so both groups can play it competetantly and equally. A lot of the comments in regards to problems with the mouse and what they want to see changed on the mouse goes against the very nature of the UI they intend to make. They have actually said as such on the forums itself shortly before releasing beta 3.

I'm not in the belief that any particular controller is inferior or better then another. I learn to use what is given to me and if I don't like it I complain and leave. I don't hold it against a community if they prefer differently. **** I'd like WoW to at least acknowledge something other then keyboard and mouse even just as another source to map keybinds but I don't get that option. So while the same community that is ostracizing FFXIV for its bad mouse control, they backs it up by selecting games that are even more narrowminded on controls usage then it is. If they don't change the UI much that allows for better mouse controls, then I guess this game isn't for those people. I don't want that to sound pompous its just the way they designed the game. It's a PC and Console game and not an out right PC game.

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 9:47pm by croythegreat


I don't ever plan to use a gamepad, but he makes a valid point. Someone mentioned earlier in IRC that they didn't want to even try WoW because they heard you couldn't play it well with a controller and it forced you to use a keyboard and mouse.
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#89 Aug 15 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Decent
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disregard.

Edited, Aug 15th 2010 2:43am by jakarai
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#90 Aug 15 2010 at 3:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I don't ever plan to use a gamepad, but he makes a valid point. Someone mentioned earlier in IRC that they didn't want to even try WoW because they heard you couldn't play it well with a controller and it forced you to use a keyboard and mouse.


I was thinking about trying WoW just for the **** of it if I didn't get a beta key...as I checked out the website looking at the controls I was like "Where the eff's the controller options?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3gFZD8LzIc

Edited, Aug 15th 2010 5:45am by TwistedOwl
#91 Aug 15 2010 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm very glad it's not like 13. After you libra an enemy i found myself just auto attacking all the time. Though some of the combat was beautiful and the cs. Just how the game progressed was horrible, too linear, not alot of control of your party. (it was all done for you). The tree I really disliked. Didn't leave any customization. Although you could pick which fighting teq. (class) you wanted it to have. You were forced to stay on the on the same line a-b-c-d.
#92 Aug 15 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Good Lord, people! Of course SE's going to build the game THEY want to build. These games are their job and their creative products. How many people love their current jobs here? Those of you who love their jobs: do you get to do what YOU want to do? Those who hate their jobs, similar question: do you have to do things you find boring and unimaginative?

And seriously, what's the advantage in putting in a stupid little movement like jump? I don't want to see some 300 lbs Roegadyn hopping around town like some big bunny rabbit. I can see only two things happening with jump being put in: PCs hopping around all the time for no real need nor reason and PCs getting stuck in parts of the landscape that they otherwise would not have had access to in the first place. Jumping is not going to help with combat, will not help with gathering materials, and will not help craft. In fact, if I were in SE and gave in and let people jump, I'd put it in such that if you're jumping and get aggro or you're in a battle while doing so, you get a higher chance of getting hit and incur more damage because when you're jumping you are as vulnerable as you are when flat footed. Back in fencing classes they teach you to keep on the balls of your feet and to keep your feet close to the ground; we never lifted our feet maybe more than 1/2 to 1 inch. This way, if we needed to back up or suddenly lunge forward, we'd be able to do so immediately, instead of having to wait for another foot to hit the ground. Not having both feet at/near the ground is just setting yourself up as an easy target for a strike!
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#93 Aug 15 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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Sykksmoke wrote:
I'm with Mikhalia, I loved XI would have been content with a graphic overhaul and have them fix only a few things and make some minor changes here and there. New zones and a few more jobs (I can never have enough I was an addict when it came to unlocking every job then leveling them) I like most of how the game was setup as well. I really hope that XIV is as amazing as XI was and hopefully they haven't changed so many things that it turns me as well as many other fans off.


+1

and I made you a scholar.


That said the differences in XIV that seem apparent don't turn me off at all, even though some of them I think are there to placate the people that didn't like XI... but fair enough. Considering there are lots of people who won't make the switch to XIV - SE needs to offer people who didn't like XI something different in order to attract players.
#94 Aug 15 2010 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
TwistedOwl wrote:

I was thinking about trying WoW just for the **** of it if I didn't get a beta key...as I checked out the website looking at the controls I was like "Where the eff's the controller options?"


Funny that the folks that are always griping about FFXI not supporting mouse the way they want it to are playing a game that doesn't support controllers at all.

Anyway, in a perfect world every game would support exactly the kind of controls we want to use.

Unfortunately - this isn't a perfect world. So while I hope and expect there will be customizable controls to a certain extent, I also know I am a creature capable of learning and will learn to use the controls that are there.
#95 Aug 15 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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1,218 posts
Olorinus wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:

I was thinking about trying WoW just for the **** of it if I didn't get a beta key...as I checked out the website looking at the controls I was like "Where the eff's the controller options?"


Funny that the folks that are always griping about FFXI not supporting mouse the way they want it to are playing a game that doesn't support controllers at all.


Two problems here:

1) The assumption that if some one wants better mouse controls they're playing WoW. That doesn't really follow, since mouse/keyboard is the industry standard for PC controls. Some one coming from virtually any other MMO, FPS, RTS, RPG, etc is going to have the same expectation of good mouse support.

2) Apples to Oranges comparison. No one is asking that mouse be supported on PS-3, which is comparable to wanting gamepad support for a PC exclusive game. There's nothing especially unfair or hypocritical about PC gamers being biased in favor of mouse/keyboard when that's pretty much been the standard for the last decade or more. Some might go so far as to say that mouse/keyboard control is one of the major reasons to even play a game on a PC instead of a console.

#96 Aug 15 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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495 posts
Quote:
Two problems here:

1) The assumption that if some one wants better mouse controls they're playing WoW. That doesn't really follow, since mouse/keyboard is the industry standard for PC controls. Some one coming from virtually any other MMO, FPS, RTS, RPG, etc is going to have the same expectation of good mouse support.

2) Apples to Oranges comparison. No one is asking that mouse be supported on PS-3, which is comparable to wanting gamepad support for a PC exclusive game. There's nothing especially unfair or hypocritical about PC gamers being biased in favor of mouse/keyboard when that's pretty much been the standard for the last decade or more. Some might go so far as to say that mouse/keyboard control is one of the major reasons to even play a game on a PC instead of a console.


1.) This is more a complaint to the people talking about other MMORPG, specifically I have heard that arguement that "SE doesn't know how to develope for the 'free' control setup that every PC game utilizes." I have literally heard that arguement when people talk about how bad the mouse controls are in FFXI and FFXIV. Those same people also reference every other MMORPG on the market and those are actually way more narrowminded on their controls then FFXIV will ever be. I'm not complaining about those games though, they were designed for the PC users only and expect all PC users to play with keyboard and mouse. This isn't a true PC game though, and those people just can't get that through their heads.

2.) Then they picked the wrong game. This isn't a PC game, this isn't a Console game. It is both. And as such they are customizing the UI to work competantly on both setups and part of the 'joy' of the mouse is point and click precision. They said publically that it won't happen because it make the other two setups inferior by proxy. Its issues like this that people are asking for and its not coming. No matter how much they complain about it. People have complaints with mouse, **** there are some legitimate complaints right now for issues with the keyboard only and gamepad setups because they don't have all the features that were standard with FFXI in yet (Although they are coming, key shortcuts for chat and other things etc.) but what PC only people are asking for is for mouse and keyboard setup to be the defacto supreme setup like all the other MMORPG games out there. Its not happening no matter how much they complain. They need to either learn the UI as it is or move on if it doesn't change come release.
#97 Aug 15 2010 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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1,218 posts
croythegreat wrote:


2.) Then they picked the wrong game. This isn't a PC game, this isn't a Console game. It is both. And as such they are customizing the UI to work competantly on both setups and part of the 'joy' of the mouse is point and click precision. They said publically that it won't happen because it make the other two setups inferior by proxy. Its issues like this that people are asking for and its not coming. No matter how much they complain about it. People have complaints with mouse, **** there are some legitimate complaints right now for issues with the keyboard only and gamepad setups because they don't have all the features that were standard with FFXI in yet (Although they are coming, key shortcuts for chat and other things etc.) but what PC only people are asking for is for mouse and keyboard setup to be the defacto supreme setup like all the other MMORPG games out there. Its not happening no matter how much they complain. They need to either learn the UI as it is or move on if it doesn't change come release.


It's a game which is being released for PC: Hence, it is a PC game. It's not being ported over, it's being developed first as a PC game. If it happens to also be a console game, that's fine, as long as it's optimized for PC to the extent that it's not going to hinder console gamers.

Allowing keyboard keys to be remapped is not going to hold the console back. In fact, they could allow the same option on the console and I'm certain that would make some console people very happy. Implementing a hardware mouse instead of a software mouse, again, has no impact on people playing the console version.

The argument that improving the PC setup will some how make the console version less playable is obviously and blatantly false. You're creating a false dilemma because it is not an either/or situation. The console version can be perfectly implemented and the PC version can be perfectly implemented without any conflict whatsoever. There is a huge difference between asking for common sense, no cost changes that simply make the game more pleasant to play, and demanding a feature for feature match between FFXIV and other MMOs.
#98 Aug 15 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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845 posts
KarlHungis the Prohpet wrote:
croythegreat wrote:


2.) Then they picked the wrong game. This isn't a PC game, this isn't a Console game. It is both. And as such they are customizing the UI to work competantly on both setups and part of the 'joy' of the mouse is point and click precision. They said publically that it won't happen because it make the other two setups inferior by proxy. Its issues like this that people are asking for and its not coming. No matter how much they complain about it. People have complaints with mouse, **** there are some legitimate complaints right now for issues with the keyboard only and gamepad setups because they don't have all the features that were standard with FFXI in yet (Although they are coming, key shortcuts for chat and other things etc.) but what PC only people are asking for is for mouse and keyboard setup to be the defacto supreme setup like all the other MMORPG games out there. Its not happening no matter how much they complain. They need to either learn the UI as it is or move on if it doesn't change come release.


It's a game which is being released for PC: Hence, it is a PC game. It's not being ported over, it's being developed first as a PC game. If it happens to also be a console game, that's fine, as long as it's optimized for PC to the extent that it's not going to hinder console gamers.

Allowing keyboard keys to be remapped is not going to hold the console back. In fact, they could allow the same option on the console and I'm certain that would make some console people very happy. Implementing a hardware mouse instead of a software mouse, again, has no impact on people playing the console version.

The argument that improving the PC setup will some how make the console version less playable is obviously and blatantly false. You're creating a false dilemma because it is not an either/or situation. The console version can be perfectly implemented and the PC version can be perfectly implemented without any conflict whatsoever. There is a huge difference between asking for common sense, no cost changes that simply make the game more pleasant to play, and demanding a feature for feature match between FFXIV and other MMOs.



Why do some many people have a hard time understanding this?
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#99 Aug 15 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I love reading this stuff.

Here are my complaints about the game while we are at it though.


Targeting: Targeting sucks. It is easier on the keyboard, but it still sucks.

Disciples of land: There are skills that tell you where mining points and logging points are, but they give you the distance in a unit called "malms". No where does the game tell you what a malm is, how far it is, etc. Best you can do is pick out the general direction by the slope of malms away it is given (75 malms north and 25 malms west, so roughly 1/3 slop west/north). It's a tad bit retarded.

Also, having to pick a section of the tree to log from without there being any difference in results is absolutely retarded. I say log, but every gathering job does this so far.

Fishing is also nearly 100% luck. you only get 1 chance to hook a fish, and then you have to start all over. If you could get as many chances as you wanted but the point reset every time, that would be fine. but the starting animation is such a pain to get through, it wastes so much time.

I have no complaints for war and magic, and I've never played as a disciple of hand yet.




On the other hand, alpha testers ***** to high heaven about the slow combat and they completely revamped the system for beta 1. I think that the crystal engine is much more flexible then people give it credit for. That or SE knows how to crack the whip.
#100 Aug 15 2010 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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6,470 posts
Edalya wrote:
I have no issue with adding things like mouselook, but what I don't want is for it to be the only way to look around. I HATE it when I have to use a mouse. I want to use the keyboard, and keyboard only. Constantly having to shift controls drives me crazy. I much prefer FFXI controls to WOW controls for the simple reason that I never have to touch the mouse.

Edit: Spelling

Edited, Aug 14th 2010 1:45pm by Edalya


Same for me. I play on my laptop, and I don't like having to reach over to the side of the comp to get to a mouse. I've gotten very attached to the trackpoint in the middle of my keyboard, as it lets me go from typing to pointer control very quickly. I wish more games would effectively incorporate their usage.

Edited, Aug 15th 2010 10:28pm by Eske
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#101 Aug 15 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think the solution should be obvious, as I've already mentioned: Make the controls customizable.

If people can customize the controls to whatever they want them to be (gamepad, no gamepad, mouse, no mouse, buttons do this, buttons do that), then EVERYONE wins.
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