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Please enlighten me on SE's definition of "freedom"Follow

#1 Aug 16 2010 at 8:21 AM Rating: Default
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Some things in the beta make me wonder whether our beloved SE actually got the drift on the word "freedom".

For example, the "freedom of customization" with abilities from several jobs seems a fantastic idea at first sight, and perhaps less so at the second. Imagine you just LOVE halberds and lances. All you ever wanted to do is to poke that oversized chopstick into someone's eye. But dammit, that LV 40 Gladiator ability, as well as several LV 30 traits of Conjurer (e.g. "Complete Control" etc.) sure would benefit you a lot. And of course, you need some money, so leveling a craft or gathering skill may be a given...

I am not against grind in general (good opportunity to rant with other party members), but... does this mean that, to be able to play the role you want to play (Lancer/good stats/reasonably well equipped), you'll have to grind as, e.g., a Gladiator, Conjurer and Botanist? Where's the "freedom" in a system that expects you to spend countless hours playing a role you don't like, just able to do what you like (chopstick->eye) with acceptable proficiency?

Wasn't the big selling point of FFXIV "more freedom of playstyles" some months ago?
Why do I have to play as a Conjurer to be a good lancer?

Did I miss something?
#2 Aug 16 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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You have the freedom not to play.
#3 Aug 16 2010 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Some things in the beta make me wonder whether our beloved SE actually got the drift on the word "freedom".

For example, the "freedom of customization" with abilities from several jobs seems a fantastic idea at first sight, and perhaps less so at the second. Imagine you just LOVE halberds and lances. All you ever wanted to do is to poke that oversized chopstick into someone's eye. But dammit, that LV 40 Gladiator ability, as well as several LV 30 traits of Conjurer (e.g. "Complete Control" etc.) sure would benefit you a lot. And of course, you need some money, so leveling a craft or gathering skill may be a given...

I am not against grind in general (good opportunity to rant with other party members), but... does this mean that, to be able to play the role you want to play (Lancer/good stats/reasonably well equipped), you'll have to grind as, e.g., a Gladiator, Conjurer and Botanist? Where's the "freedom" in a system that expects you to spend countless hours playing a role you don't like, just able to do what you like (chopstick->eye) with acceptable proficiency?

Wasn't the big selling point of FFXIV "more freedom of playstyles" some months ago?
Why do I have to play as a Conjurer to be a good lancer?

Did I miss something?


It sounds like you want a game where you can skip straight to the end without actually playing. Leveling these different classes is a large part of the game. If that doesn't appeal to you then it's probably not the right game for you.
#4 Aug 16 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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You've got complete freedom to only level lancer if that's what you want. By that same token, other players are completely free to not invite you to anything if other players who've level multiple classes and have access to wanted abilities are around.
#5 Aug 16 2010 at 8:34 AM Rating: Default
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Perhaps not, I guess...?
Is this the only argument in defense of that system?
If you don't like it -> leave?
I mean, is there any other hidden rationale behind forcing players to play a role they don't like to in a MMO *R* PG?
#6 Aug 16 2010 at 8:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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You also have the freedom to play each class as you see fit. No one can force you to level in a way that you don't want to play. The beauty of this game is its customization. You don't have to bow to the min/maxing crowd if you don't want to. This game has a lot of content. The freedom is in choosing your own path. If you want to following the dictates of someone else about what makes the "best" this or that... that isn't SE's fault.
#7 Aug 16 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:

I mean, is there any other hidden rationale behind forcing players to play a role they don't like to in a MMO *R* PG?


No one is making you do anything. If you choose to play in a cookie cutter way that is your problem - not a design flaw from SE.

I know for myself I'll be leveling what I want to level and I won't be worrying too much about anything else. The rationale is it offers ultimate customization.
#8 Aug 16 2010 at 8:40 AM Rating: Default
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Well, Olorinus,
the way you put it sounds like SE is oblivious of the fact there's something like a "players community" in MMORPGs.
Or oblivious of the fact people play MMORPGs for the *MM* component.
Your choice ^.^/

I'm not saying I'll not play XIV. Of course I will.
I just doubt whether the "freedom" they seem to have in mind will please a lot of people.

#9 Aug 16 2010 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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Well, to me Freedom means the absence of physical coercion. The character in your example wants to be free from cause and effect. He wants the effect(to be a good Lancer) without cause.

Fact is, you do have options, whether the efficacy of those options outweigh the things required for them to be achieved is up to you. You're free to make either choice.

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#10 Aug 16 2010 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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I have to agree with everyone else. You are not forced into playing a certain way. You have the freedom to play what you want. It's an MMORPG, you take out of it what you put into it.
#11 Aug 16 2010 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Perhaps not, I guess...?
Is this the only argument in defense of that system?
If you don't like it -> leave?
I mean, is there any other hidden rationale behind forcing players to play a role they don't like to in a MMO *R* PG?


Nobody is forcing you to play anything but lancer. You can play the whole game as lancer should you choose to.
If you want skills from other classes, you'll probably have to level those classes to gain access to those abilities.

It's kinda like how I like to eat chicken and rice. I don't really want to eat vegetables, but it's beneficial to my health to do so.

Is it fair for you to have access to abilities of other classes without having played those classes?
#12 Aug 16 2010 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Perhaps not, I guess...?
Is this the only argument in defense of that system?
If you don't like it -> leave?


What you're complaining about IS the game. It doesn't need defending because having all those options and having a reason to play different classes on the same character is actually appealing to many/most of us. It's like complaining that strawberry isn't chocolate. If you don't like strawberry, don't eat strawberry, but don't ask any one to "defend" strawberry.

Quote:

I mean, is there any other hidden rationale behind forcing players to play a role they don't like to in a MMO *R* PG?


No one is forcing you to do any thing. You have the OPTION of playing other classes in order to improve your character. If you don't want to do that, then you don't have to, but you won't be as good as some one who does. It's not a big secret that time invested in an MMO = better results.

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 10:48am by KarlHungis
#13 Aug 16 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Perhaps not, I guess...?
Is this the only argument in defense of that system?
If you don't like it -> leave?


Well, they do not use it that way, they are just warning you for what type of game FFXIV is. And by your post it looks like the game would not be suitable for you. No harm done. :)


Quote:

I mean, is there any other hidden rationale behind forcing players to play a role they don't like to in a MMO *R* PG?


You are not forced to play ANYTHING. if you do not like class X, you are not forced by anyone to level it.
However to get an advantage you will need to level class A,B,C and X. If you do not wish to use that advantage that is up to you.
But do not expect to do as well as Class ABCX when you only play D.

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 10:47am by Riathy
#14 Aug 16 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Default
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To give longevity to the game SE doesnt want to give you all the super bad *** Skills to one Class. They want you to play for a long time and I think putting skills on other jobs that you want will make you play that job. Its their sub job system. So instead of leveling one job to sub it you need to level many jobs to get the skills you want. I like the system that way you always have the FREEDOM to choose what skills to use and how you play your class. After all this is SE and nothing comes easy.







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#15 Aug 16 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Default
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Um-hum. I guess it's a simple matter of opinion then.
It just doesn't sound very promising to me.
Being limited on the time I can play, I would like to see a game where I can enjoy every minute, and still make a sort of progress that allows me to pretty good at the limited role I chose to fulfil in a group. Having to do a lot of "work" to get to the "fun" just seems somehow... I don't know... dated?
#16 Aug 16 2010 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
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well.....if the developers just gave you everything you wanted there would be incredibly little incentive to play. strange huh? the fact is that it's an MMO and of course the grind is part of the game. Until developers can figure out another way to draw the length of an MMO out for 5+ years to receive their moneys worth we are stuck with a grind. The grind isnt really a problem as long as its jam packed full of fun and rewarding things to do. but again if they just set u at end game in end game gear with absolutely the best people there is to play with, you won't play. It's like using cheat codes(which only in a couple games actually makes the game more fun to play
#17 Aug 16 2010 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Um-hum. I guess it's a simple matter of opinion then.
It just doesn't sound very promising to me.
Being limited on the time I can play, I would like to see a game where I can enjoy every minute, and still make a sort of progress that allows me to pretty good at the limited role I chose to fulfil in a group. Having to do a lot of "work" to get to the "fun" just seems somehow... I don't know... dated?


MMOs generally take up a lot of time. If you have a very busy life with limited play time, then maybe MMOs aren't for you, or maybe an extremely casual friendly MMO like World of Warcraft or Hello Kitty Online would be more to your liking.
#18 Aug 16 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Default
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OMG THAT IS AMAZING! there really is a hello kitty online. i never knew o.O
#19 Aug 16 2010 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Um-hum. I guess it's a simple matter of opinion then.
It just doesn't sound very promising to me.
Being limited on the time I can play, I would like to see a game where I can enjoy every minute, and still make a sort of progress that allows me to pretty good at the limited role I chose to fulfil in a group. Having to do a lot of "work" to get to the "fun" just seems somehow... I don't know... dated?


What do you consider fun? MMO's require some work to achieve goals. Or at least they should. 'That other game' has ruined what many perceive to be the best part of MMO's. That feeling of accomplishing a goal. 'That other game' simply gives you everything you want in a timely manner without much effort. I take pride in the hard work I put into my character, and many others do as well. I think it's unfair of you to think that you can have everything you want without putting any 'blood, sweat, and tears' into your character. If I have to level up a few other classes to achieve the ultimate build for whatever class I choose to play, then so be it, I'll have fun learning some new skills and a new class. In the end it'll make me a better player because you can understand and fulfill a variety of different roles.

If you want a game that can offer you everything you desire simply playing a minimum of hours, I doubt this will be the game for you.

#20 Aug 16 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Default
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Now, now.
We all know HelloKitty Online is full of hardcore grinding.
So I guess that was just a "witty" attempt to discredit my
opinion by putting me into the casual-corner.

I just don't think it makes a lot of sense to have to play
a lot of Conjurer/Thaumaturge/Gladiator/Botanist when all
I want to do is oplaying Lancer. Is my opinion really that
irrational?
#21 Aug 16 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes it is irrational because you don't HAVE to play those other classes. But if you want the skills from those classes, you more than likely will. Feel free to play the entire game as a lancer with lancer-only skills, nobody is stopping you.
#22 Aug 16 2010 at 9:03 AM Rating: Excellent
Of course there's going to be a grind to learn new skills, it's based on how humans learn to do new things. Peoeple are rarely good at something as soon as they pick it up, especially complicated skills, so why should your digital counterpart be any different?

Quote:
Having to do a lot of "work" to get to the "fun" just seems somehow... I don't know... dated?


What would be the point otherwise? If it were that easy it would be boring...or an FPS.
#23 Aug 16 2010 at 9:05 AM Rating: Default
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Well, technically that is not right, as I will be expected to have
those skills from the other classes. As I said, I am not against the
"grind" per se. I've played Lineage II and FFXI too long to mind it.

I just *somehow and completely irrationally* don't think it's that good
a design decision to *kindly guide* people to play a role they don't like
for *presumably perhaps possibly* a lot of time just to be able to play
the role they do like in a way that gets them party invites.

Just think about your typical healer-minded guy. Some people just consider
it dull to beat things up with a club. Why confront them with a design that
requires them to do so nonetheless if they want to be really good at healing?
#24 Aug 16 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
Now, now.
We all know HelloKitty Online is full of hardcore grinding.
So I guess that was just a "witty" attempt to discredit my
opinion by putting me into the casual-corner.


You've already put yourself in the "casual-corner" by declaring that your life is just too busy to spend a lot of time playing the game. A casual player is some one who cannot or will not set aside blocks of time to play. There's nothing wrong with being casual, but you discredit yourself when you act mystified that 2 + 2 = 4.

Quote:

I just don't think it makes a lot of sense to have to play
a lot of Conjurer/Thaumaturge/Gladiator/Botanist when all
I want to do is oplaying Lancer. Is my opinion really that
irrational?


Who told you that you have to play any thing other than a lancer? You might benefit from playing those other classes, but no one is forcing you to. It's up to you to act like an adult and make decisions like "Is it worth my time to play another class that will only provide a small benefit to my main class?"

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 11:12am by KarlHungis
#25 Aug 16 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Well, technically that is not right, as I will be expected to have
those skills from the other classes. As I said, I am not against the
"grind" per se. I've played Lineage II and FFXI too long to mind it.

I just *somehow and completely irrationally* don't think it's that good
a design decision to *kindly guide* people to play a role they don't like
for *presumably perhaps possibly* a lot of time just to be able to play
the role they do like in a way that gets them party invites.

Just think about your typical healer-minded guy. Some people just consider
it dull to beat things up with a club. Why confront them with a design that
requires them to do so nonetheless if they want to be really good at healing?


I think it's impossible to tell right now what people will expect during any point of this game.

Is it plausible that a lancer will require skills from other classes to be effective? Maybe
Is it plausible a lancer can play the entire game with lancer-only skills and be effective? Maybe

Anything right now is just speculation. But if you want to play a lancer with healing skills, wouldn't it make sense you should need to learn how to heal?
If you want to play a lancer that can farm high level mining points... you will more than likely need to learn how to be a miner.

The customization that you want for yourself is entirely up to you.
#26 Aug 16 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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If you are prepared to accept the consequences of perhaps a lack of party invite because you want to be a thf/rdm then more power to you.

Find other people that don't care about your roles/classes etc. and make a linkshell so you can find pt's with one another quickly.

There is no argument here - You're repeating yourself, and so is everyone else.
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#27 Aug 16 2010 at 9:18 AM Rating: Default
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Trying hard to not get the point, eh?

Whether I am "casual" or not is a matter of opinion - and actually
pretty much besides the point. As I said, I don't mind the grind per
se (Didn't I already write that?). I just don't like being shoved into
a *role* I don't like to play in a MMO*R*PG that has written the slogan
"freedom of playstyle" all over.

And if being a good, "community-certified" lancer (Hey! Didn't I write
I like the *MM* part of MMORPG before as well?) requires me to be a
Conjurer/Marauder/Thaumaturge/Marauder/Botanist before, well... if you
think that's a clever decision that will attract a lot of players,
maybe I am delusional after all.

Don't get me wrong, guys. I am really looking forward to FFXIV. But some
of the things I see in the Beta just *sometimes* seem not so clever to me.
#28 Aug 16 2010 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I am dying to call the OP some what troll like.

You want an ability from another to class to add on to your lancer . . .

and you are complaining about having to earn the use of said ability?


I'm sorry but I don't understand your rant here.

Its simple you can customize you're avatar/character anyway you want but to
get the abilities yes you will have to access it via quests and some grinding.


This is a very simple fact of any RPG MMO or not to get skills you have to unlock them.


Such a childish post IMO.
#29 Aug 16 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
I just don't like being shoved into
a *role* I don't like to play in a MMO*R*PG that has written the slogan
"freedom of playstyle" all over.

Hi, it's an RPG. No matter how free the playstyle is, you're going to be put in some role. Some people will happen to dislike that role. This time around, it happens to be you who dislikes it. There's nothing to be done for it; if you change this particular problem, a new batch of people will pop up who dislike the new way. In the end, "freedom of playstyle" is just different degrees of pigeonholing.
#30 Aug 16 2010 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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So your definition of "freedom" would be to have no freedom at all?

Just lock every player into one class and remove all the customization as far as subjobs go! That's freedom for ya.

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#31 Aug 16 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Speeral
Seriously, I must be one of the worst writers in human history,
since I seem unable to get accross my point. I thought it was simple.
I was wrong.

What I mean is not: (attention: "not" is a negation!)

- I want to get all the skills there are without effort
- I want to be the uber-Lancer without a grind

What I mean is:
- Why do I have to play a role I don't like to be better at the
role I like?

It may be a matter of personal opinion, but as I said: Some people
play RPGs to be the "Healer" in a party. Why force them to be a DD
for a lengthy period of their career just to be a good healer?
Doesn't that sound somehow... counterintuitive?


Edited, Aug 16th 2010 11:36am by Rinsui
#32 Aug 16 2010 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Hi, it's an RPG. No matter how free the playstyle is, you're going to be put in some role. Some people will happen to dislike that role. This time around, it happens to be you who dislikes it. There's nothing to be done for it; if you change this particular problem, a new batch of people will pop up who dislike the new way. In the end, "freedom of playstyle" is just different degrees of pigeonholing.


Now that's actually an explanation I can live with.
Thank you.
#33 Aug 16 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
It may be a matter of personal opinion, but as I said: Some people
play RPGs to be the "Healer" in a party. Why force the to be a DD
for a lengthy period of ther career just to be a good healer? Doesn't
that sound somehow... counterintuitive?


I thought it sounded new. It has never worked like this in any previous MMO. I'm quite excited by it actually.

Perhaps to some it may not seem friendly, but counterintuitive? Nah, not really. Counterintuitive would be to learn Healing spells from the Marauder. Perhaps you're after a different word there?
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#34 Aug 16 2010 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Eventually once the dust settles we will all be in some sort of cookie-cutter type role.

This isn't necessarily the fault of SE as much as it is the playerbase.

What I don't understand is thinking you need to have a certain ability.

I mean, the only system I can see that works for you would be having a large pool of abilities and a large pool of points to spend them on, but then there would be no personality or even distinct roles.

In WoW (yes I hate using it as an example) you could only be ONE class. Yes, there were different trees, but they were all condensed into a few cookie cutter builds.

And in FFXI you HAD to have WAR as a subjob for most DMG jobs and WHM or BLU or DNC if you wanted to solo. But like I mentioned, this was more to do with the player base.

But with FFXIV, you're able to mix and match different abilities, with the only limitation being time to obtain those abilities.

Over time, with FFXIV's system, I think we'll see some very powerful and unique builds.

In the end, if the game isn't fun, don't play it.
#35 Aug 16 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Default
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I'm a little confused...

What is it you think you won't be able to do as a lancer by having lancer-only skills?
What do you think you'll be lacking as a lancer by not playing other classes?

I just don't really get your angle.

The way I read it is that you'll think you can become a better lancer by having an ability from say the pugilist class.
If that's what it takes to be a great lancer, wouldn't the time and effort put into levelling Pugilist be justification enough for the goal you're trying to achieve? You're basically saying you want a pugilist ability, but you never want to play pugilist.

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 11:40am by ShonaSeraph
#36 Aug 16 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't really understand your post.

You want reasonable equipment and good stats. Stats are determined by your physical level not your profession. (Yes I know hp drop when you goto a lower class level.) Lancer equipment requires you to be a lancer.

Are you complaining about the surplus xp system?

Are you complaining because you can't get another class skills without leveling another class?

Are you complaining because your story doesn't match the world exactly the way you want it to?

Are you complaining because you don't have an I win button?

or Are you just upset because your order of cheese is taking to long?

The surplus xp system I could see you complaining about if you just want to be a lancer and nothing else. If you are just playing casual then you probably won't hit it. I hope.

#37 Aug 16 2010 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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ShonaSeraph

Sorry, perhaps you don't know about the new traits system yet - that requires explanation, then.
There are a few high level stat-enhancing traits for, e.g. Lancer (stuff like "-10 DEX, +10Pie")
that definitely benefit a Conjurer more than a Lancer. So basically, if you want to be a "good"
mage, you have to level a DD first.

Just personal opinion, I guess... but I *personally* find it hard to believe that a dedicated
Healer would love to level a Lancer pretty high first to be a "good" healer later.

#38 Aug 16 2010 at 9:50 AM Rating: Decent
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You're right, I haven't seen that.
But like... I would take stuff like that with a grain of salt, it's only beta, and everything is sure to change in 37 days.

Edit: maybe some of your high level lancer skills require a high amount of Piety to be effective? Just throwing it out there...

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 11:51am by ShonaSeraph
#39 Aug 16 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
So your definition of "freedom" would be to have no freedom at all?

Just lock every player into one class and remove all the customization as far as subjobs go! That's freedom for ya.



I understand what you were trying to get at but uh..playing just 1 class is called specialization, which some people choose to do.
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Quote:
Just personal opinion, I guess... but I *personally* find it hard to believe that a dedicated
Healer would love to level a Lancer pretty high first to be a "good" healer later.


A lot of people love min/maxing. So what if you are not one of them?

Going on like you do makes me believe you are just trolling. So either accept the answers that have been giving here or you'll turn this into a troll thread.
#41 Aug 16 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I can't remember the monk skill in FFXI... was it Chi Blast? I think it had a high MND modifier to it. Whoever would have thought MND would be important on a Melee class???? But it was, and chi blast was an effective skill.
#42 Aug 16 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Yes, and leveling WHM to 37 just for a few extra points of damage on a 5 min skill is
*right* what I am afraid of happening again. But I seem to be part of a tiny minority
with this opinion.
#43 Aug 16 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
I can't remember the monk skill in FFXI... was it Chi Blast? I think it had a high MND modifier to it. Whoever would have thought MND would be important on a Melee class???? But it was, and chi blast was an effective skill.


A trait that gave +10 MND with -10DEX would've been horrible though...that trait would not help a DD...I don't know about this new trait stuff either, but that sounds like a poor trait to give to lancer...
#44 Aug 16 2010 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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It's not like this is new... FFXI had you doing this all over the place, level sub jobs and sub jobs of sub jobs to make your main job the best it could be... let's take red mage for instance:

Subs needed at endgame? RDM/WHM, RDM/BLM, RDM/DRK, RDM/NIN

RDM is a poor sub for WHM and BLM between levels 1 and 37 so you sub them to each other, which has you leveling WHM/BLM and BLM/WHM just for RDM

RDM is an absolutely abysmal sub for DRK so you level WAR to go with that, but it's also a bad sub for WAR, so you level MNK, subbing WAR, and then WAR subbing MNK and then finally DRK subbing WAR

Now you've got that you can level NIN subbing WAR or that can be part of the last set in place of MNK, but you'd better have a high-level job to do your NIN quests so you're not completely useless.

So to level your RDM, you've also leveled as many as 6 other jobs.

BTW, if I've forgotten a sub or two please forgive me, it's been a few years, but I think my point has been made
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#45 Aug 16 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
ShonaSeraph wrote:
I can't remember the monk skill in FFXI... was it Chi Blast? I think it had a high MND modifier to it. Whoever would have thought MND would be important on a Melee class???? But it was, and chi blast was an effective skill.


A trait that gave +10 MND with -10DEX would've been horrible though...that trait would not help a DD...I don't know about this new trait stuff either, but that sounds like a poor trait to give to lancer...


I doubt a +10 mnd and -10 dex would be a permanent trait, in fact it would make no sense. But it would be useful to equip that trait when looking to use skills with high MND modifiers, no?
#46 Aug 16 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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TwistedOwl
Congratulations, you just summed up my point. It's a Lancer skill designed especially for use on mages.
Btw, Lancer also gets "+10Int, -10Str" and "+10 Mnd, -10Vit". ;)
At least, can we possibly agree that is *somehow perhaps a tiny little bit* counter-intuitive?
#47 Aug 16 2010 at 10:04 AM Rating: Default
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Rinsui wrote:
TwistedOwl
Congratulations, you just summed up my point. It's a Lancer skill designed especially for use on mages.
Btw, Lancer also gets "+10Int, -10Str" and "+10 Mnd, -10Vit". ;)
At least, can we possibly agree that is *somehow perhaps a tiny little bit* counter-intuitive?


From what I've been reading it's also an optional trait.
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#48 Aug 16 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Default
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I think you're assuming everything you do as a lancer will be tied to STR or DEX, and possibly some VIT.
It's very close-minded to think that way.
#49 Aug 16 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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From what I've been reading it's also an optional trait.

Optional (and most likely almost never used) on a Lancer, not-so-optional on a Mage... ^.^/

Anyway, people, if you think it's a fine idea to split good Mage traits/skills among Melee Jobs,
that's o.k. with me. I don't think it is, but I guess I'll eventually overcome my dislike. Let
this thread die. Don't want to be called a troll.

@Shonan
Less "close-minded", and more "rational assumption tempered by 20 years of playing FF-games".
Since when was STR unimportant for a DD? Of course, I'd love to be surprised, but...


Edited, Aug 16th 2010 12:14pm by Rinsui
#50 Aug 16 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Speeral
Seriously, I must be one of the worst writers in human history,
since I seem unable to get accross my point. I thought it was simple.
I was wrong.

What I mean is not: (attention: "not" is a negation!)

- I want to get all the skills there are without effort
- I want to be the uber-Lancer without a grind

What I mean is:
- Why do I have to play a role I don't like to be better at the
role I like?

It may be a matter of personal opinion, but as I said: Some people
play RPGs to be the "Healer" in a party. Why force them to be a DD
for a lengthy period of their career just to be a good healer?
Doesn't that sound somehow... counterintuitive?



I don't think so at all.

NOt having played the game I cannot comment on game mechanics.

However looking at the system of the game playing on the class lancer.

It seems you can be a very effective lancer and freely only have to play that one class.

However is you want to to customize you're lancer with added abilities and tweak its play
style. You will have to play other roles to open those abilities because they are specific to
that one class.

Its like in FFXI and the subjob system. I was never a THF player at all not a fan.
However for certain NM fights and other activities i was requested to level thf for the
abilities.

Same thing here. Its like an onion you can tailer your lancer one way via gear, food, and stat allocation.

But if you want to tailer abilities from other classes you have to play the class whether you like it or not.
It's definitely you're choice. Do like/want the ability enough to play another role for a bit to get the ability
or not?

No one, not even SE is saying you have to.

But to be more effective and have that choice to customize even further, you will have a choice to make.

I cannot really say much more with out being a broken record of what others have said here.

I do appreciate your thoughts and comments, But I cannot agree with your perspective.
#51 Aug 16 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Warning: Long rant on why no one here is right or wrong yet, and a few notes to back up ShonaSeraph, the only one other then the OP that seems to have a realistic view of what we do and do not know already (hence the question, or implied questioning anyways from the OP). And those saying that one has the option not to play at all, well... seriously, either give a positive opinion or do not post. The OP wants answers and speculations, not someone trying to set them up for failure before anyone sees SE's true intent in this game.

SE has commented months ago that you can either be the best in one class, or efficient in many. Who knows, if the OP wants to play straight Lancer all the way to the end without leveling anything else, there may be a chance that even though he may not have sweet abilities from other classes, he may still be uber in the fact he is pure Lancer. Who knows at this point, even if he passes up solid dps skills from other classes, he could still be strong for not varying away... perhaps there may be a chance straight, unwavering play style of one class may be stronger in endgame due to some mathematical equations since time and physical lvl versus weapon skill aren't distributed in another class (I actually assume there will be some equations put out there on just about day one as to the economics of 1 "class" vs hybridizing a character; I personally plan on 2 characters just to keep my DoW classes and crafter/experimental classes economically aligned in terms of physical lvl vs. skill lvls)

I could be totally wrong, but on the same note, from what I've read, even the experience points distribution is yet to be finalized in beta and most likely still being worked on in terms of balance. In all fairness, for example, physical lvl of say 50 with lancer skill of 50 (or however each is capped) may be more appealing then physical lvl of 50, Lancer of 30, Marauder 20, Conjurer 15, etc, etc; but then again, maybe not. We are yet to know lvl caps and endgame balance. We are yet to know if pure Pug can tank as well as Glad and what situations determine what or if mostly Pug, part Marauder part Therm is better then pure Glad, or even if it matters as long as that form of tanks abilities are maxed and you "need" other abilities. What I am actually hoping is that skill, as in players knowledge of his class and actual individual style of play is the most important factor in game, followed by gear and the other factors.

I played WoW for 2 years (and dabbled in Aion) after 5 years of FFXI and I'm sick of cookie-cutter builds as well as elitists that use other elitists stats, experimentation and numbers without trying anything on their own, that's not being an elitist, that's being a follower... "I have the best equipment and rotation because this site said so, and you are wrong because that hasn't been tested out, or has been useless since patch...." I mean seriously, I took an Ele Shaman with endgame gear from 10 man Ulduar and turned him into a beast (as in top 5 in dps, with a few times topping the charts) and took down 25 man ICC, just following the "best" gear setups and talent build put out by testing by an elitist, and it only took about a month and a half with my guild to go from sub par to the top. Ended that subscription fast after realizing the BS (I am far from an elitist, why is this too easy, where the fun?), especially because it was mindless, uncreative at that point. I rather have earned Homam and made it last for years as opposed to hard earned "uber" and BIS drops becoming obsolete every few months. If you want min/maxing at its best (or worst), Cataclysm should be coming out soon.

You all get what I mean. Give the OP and everyone else a chance to play their style, because ****, it will take a little while of number crunching and actual endgame experience to see how flexible and unwavering SE's definition of freedom is. Who knows, maybe a pure Lancer will out perform any combo DD class given same skill lvl or physical lvl in the end, or maybe the numbers will round out to be even regardless of abilities from whatever classes are spammed, and this thread is 100% useless.

* Edit When I started writing this post, ShonaSeraph was the only one to post with a head on their shoulders, since then, others have stated intelligent facts/speculations about the game as well. In no means do I mean to refute or belittle anyone's intelligence or intentions, as long as they are factually based or positive and helpful.

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 12:23pm by Toryu
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