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Please enlighten me on SE's definition of "freedom"Follow

#52 Aug 16 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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@Speeral
So how do you explain traits like "+10 Str, -10Int" on a mage?
I am not talking about "customization" by adding new skills.
I'm talking about adding stats.
#53 Aug 16 2010 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I understand what you were trying to get at but uh..playing just 1 class is called specialization, which some people choose to do.


Yes, I know.

The big question is, which is better: Having the game force you to specialize, or having the community "force" you to play a hybrid?
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#54 Aug 16 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
[quote] @Shona
Less "close-minded", and more "rational assumption tempered by 20 years of playing FF-games".
Since when was STR unimportant for a DD? Of course, I'd love to be surprised, but...


I'm not saying STR isn't important, I'm just saying that EVERY single skill you have as a Lancer may not be solely reliant on STR and DEX. I already gave the example of Chi Blast on the FFXI Monk.

Normally for most instances, STR and DEX was most important for a monk, but when using certain skills, it was important to macro in certain gear to enhance a different ability.

I'm sure STR and DEX will be important for your lancer in most cases, but there may be times when using a certain skill that is heavily MND modified, it would be beneficial to macro in the trait that gives you +10 to your MND.

#55 Aug 16 2010 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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@Toryu
Got it. All I'm asking for is the freedom not to be a hybrid and still be good at my role.
Not forced hybridization disguised as freedom.

Seems like it took a post as long as yours to make that clear after all. Thanks.
#56 Aug 16 2010 at 10:29 AM Rating: Default
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This thread is just /facepalm

If you can't see were the "Freedom of customization" is in the FFXIV than you don't understand what the term customize means.
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#57 Aug 16 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
I'm sure STR and DEX will be important for your lancer in most cases, but there may be times when using a certain skill that is heavily MND modified, it would be beneficial to macro in the trait that gives you +10 to your MND.


Traits aren't like gear though, I haven't seen it in action, but I wouldn't think you'd be able to macro traits in & out at will...so you wouldn't keep that -10DEX trait on all the time just for the rare cases you use the 1 skill that needs the +10PIE...thus making that trait pretty much useless for lancer unless I'm completely wrong in my assumptions about what the traits are...

EDIT
That doesn't change anything about the main argument of the thread though. You may need to level various classes to get the best out of the one class you want to focus on.

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 12:37pm by TwistedOwl
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#58 Aug 16 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you want traits of multiple classes then you will have to play multiple classes to get them.

That's like saying "I don't want to work, but I sure do like getting money"

Every MMORPG is a giant time sink where you are expected to drop hundreds of hours into character advancement. Every one. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. There are no exceptions to this, or at least none that anyone takes any seriously.

No, you don't have to play a class you don't like. If you don't want to play anything but lancer than you don't have to. However, if Lancer could be improved by some supplemental skills and others have those skills and are therefore better lancers than you, then they will be picked for a party before you every single time. I mean if you were playing pickup football and had to decide between "Jim from IT" or a retired Wide Receiver for (insert local professional sports team here), who are you gonna pick?

The freedom is there for you to be who you want to be. That means the freedom is there for you to play classes how you like. And if you play the class in an off-the-wall, ineffective way, then the freedom is there for other people to not group with you. I don't know if what you're suggesting is indeed that or not because you aren't being specific enough, all you're saying is you don't want to level Conjurer.

Out of curiosity, OP, what MMORPG experience do you have? I'd like to be able to put this in relatable terms for you but I don't know where you come from.
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#59 Aug 16 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
@Speeral
So how do you explain traits like "+10 Str, -10Int" on a mage?
I am not talking about "customization" by adding new skills.
I'm talking about adding stats.


It's beta, so it's entirely possible those traits are reversed.
#60 Aug 16 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
ShonaSeraph wrote:
I'm sure STR and DEX will be important for your lancer in most cases, but there may be times when using a certain skill that is heavily MND modified, it would be beneficial to macro in the trait that gives you +10 to your MND.


Traits aren't like gear though, I haven't seen it in action, but I wouldn't think you'd be able to macro traits in & out at will...so you wouldn't keep that -10DEX trait on all the time just for the rare cases you use the 1 skill that needs the +10PIE...thus making that trait pretty much useless for lancer unless I'm completely wrong in my assumptions about what the traits are...


Monks carried around light staves, even Apollo staves in FFXI for the sole purpose of using ChiBlast. Never underestimate the desire for people to get the most out of every action they possibly can.
There is a bar for traits in the beta, where you can move traits in and out, which I'm sure is macro-able.
#61 Aug 16 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia
FFXI and LineageII - so if you're aiming at a "WoW spoonfed brat" comment, I guess
I have to disappoint you. I guess I can't blame you for not reading all the lenghty
posts on the previous pages. I already stated that I don't mind "the grind" at all.
All I don't like is having to play a DD for an extensive time to be a good mage.
*BUT* that's perhaps just me, and only Toryu and that lady on the last page seem
to be able to at least understand on a theoretical level why someone could have a
problem with that. Anyway, it's 1:36 in the morning here. I have to sleep. By tomorrow,
this thread will hopefully have died as peacefully as I'm going to snug into my pillows
right now. Good night everyone!

Btw, I do want to level Conjurer. The Lancer example was just that - an example.
#62 Aug 16 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
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It's beta, so it's entirely possible those traits are reversed.


Far-fetched...
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#63 Aug 16 2010 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
Monks carried around light staves, even Apollo staves in FFXI for the sole purpose of using ChiBlast. Never underestimate the desire for people to get the most out of every action they possibly can.
There is a bar for traits in the beta, where you can move traits in and out, which I'm sure is macro-able.


Yup, I had a Chi Blast setup I carried around with me as a monk. And like I said I could be completely wrong since I'm not in beta, but I think I've heard you can't change abilities & traits in the middle of battle. So that still wouldn't work as well as gear swapping...
#64 Aug 16 2010 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I've never seen anyone get so upset over a hypothetical situation. Who's to say that mage jobs won't have other better traits? How can you say that, overall, this will be a waste of AP to equip onto a mage, as you'll have other abilities that will come first?

If you get your mage to level 60 and need a + 10 piety ability, you aren't playing mage right. The bonus is so trivial at this point. Stats provide diminishing returns iirc. Stacking only strength won't make you 2x as effective as someone who splits between strength and dexterity.

Getting upset over mechanics that are not properly explained or understood is only slightly retarded.
#65 Aug 16 2010 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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It's actually pretty logical, what SE did. If you want to get good at something, you have to practice at it and gain experience. It works in real life, too. I can't go to law school, then one day pick up a Stradivarius and expect to be a first chair player. Just like you can't have nothing to do with a class and expect to use one of its skills untrained.
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#66 Aug 16 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui, I don't think you're really even sure of what the Lancer's role in combat is in XIV. Do you think it's pure DD? Is it tanking? Is it melee support? Buffs? DeBuffs? Do you know what character stats effect the Lancer TP moves and skills?

From what I've read in this thread, it seems like you saw some Lancer traits and did not know fully how they work or what they effect and deemed them useless for Lancer. That is less a lack of freedom in picking a path in XIV and more of you don't know enough about the game.





I can't help but thinking this is a pretty good troll thread...






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#67 Aug 16 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
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I can't help but thinking this is a pretty good troll thread...


Agreed. This thread just won't die, feel like I'm in a Romero movie.
#68 Aug 16 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Mikhalia
FFXI and LineageII - so if you're aiming at a "WoW spoonfed brat" comment, I guess
I have to disappoint you. I guess I can't blame you for not reading all the lenghty
posts on the previous pages. I already stated that I don't mind "the grind" at all.
All I don't like is having to play a DD for an extensive time to be a good mage.
*BUT* that's perhaps just me, and only Toryu and that lady on the last page seem
to be able to at least understand on a theoretical level why someone could have a
problem with that. Anyway, it's 1:36 in the morning here. I have to sleep. By tomorrow,
this thread will hopefully have died as peacefully as I'm going to snug into my pillows
right now. Good night everyone!

Btw, I do want to level Conjurer. The Lancer example was just that - an example.


I just asked what games you've played so I could equate it in terms you'd understand. For example if you had said you played WoW, I might describe it as wanting to level a Paladin with a Dagger or wanting to level a Warlock as a healer and complaining "the game won't let you"

Now I haven't played L2, although I'm under the impression that Chinese and Korean MMOGs are more of a grind than Japanese ones are. Since you said you played XI, I'd equate this to not wanting to level WAR when you want to be a NIN or not wanting to level WHM or BLM when you want to be a RDM, etc... Sometimes, yes, you have to dabble in some areas different from your main class to give your class some support.

If anything, I was expecting that you would not have said XI because I would have explained that the idea of leveling 2-3 extra classes as subjobs was not only a normal one, but it was pretty much expected of you, so I'm especially surprised that this concept would carry over to XIV considering it has been a staple of job-based games like FF5, FFT, FF11, FFX-2, FF13 that if your character has multiple classes, they're expected to multiclass.

You don't need to put words in my mouth, and the fact that you do makes me think that this might be a troll thread after all.

And if you do want to level Conjurer, then I see no problem with your argument here. Don't make an argument and then later say "Well I wasn't saying that".

I'm getting more and more certain this is a well written troll thread.
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#69 Aug 16 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent
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As far as i know about the growth system in the game
Stats the MND, STR, DEX, one's can be changed to accommodate for any calls you will play.


In the beta from what i've read you can move only something like 20% or so of your stats
around every 2 hours.

But SE is allowing you to move stats around to accommodate class changing.

So if you're concerned about stats than you don't have to worry about that
because stats are tied to your physical level, and not the class level/rank.

so that answers this
Quote:
@Speeral
So how do you explain traits like "+10 Str, -10Int" on a mage?
I am not talking about "customization" by adding new skills.
I'm talking about adding stats.


i am finding it really hard to understand your actual point.
stats are customizable and not tied to class as in you can't move them around.

and considering you adjust them as your physical level grows, you can do just about anything within reason.
If this becomes in some way game breaking, then SE will come in and adjust it to re-balance anyways.
#70 Aug 16 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I understand what you were trying to get at but uh..playing just 1 class is called specialization, which some people choose to do.


Thf was my only 75 on xi, but I'll be damned if I wasn't one of the best thieves in the game. I had fun playing other jobs, and was planning on getting others up there.. but making my thief better was my foremost goal. Some people say you didn't have the freedom of doing what you wanted, but I personally did so with pride.

I personally plan on taking 2-3 classes to max in xiv, with a craft that helps those classes. Lack of freedom? Hah, biggest bull I've ever heard.
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#71 Aug 16 2010 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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The way I understood it, is these traits (-10STR +10MND etc) that you can get from guilds with certain points, are to help players who want to change their class from DoW to DoM and vice versa.

So Melee classes will initially put their points on STR, DEX and VIT. When they reach a certain level and want to play a Mage,, the traits will help offset some of the points they've piled onto STR, DEX and VIT into INT, MND and PIE. And Mages get the opposite traits to help them change to Melee.

As I beleive when you use "reassign" in the points menu, you can only change a percentage of your stats, so these traits will help you have some half-decent stats when changing classes.
#72 Aug 16 2010 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Hey Rinsui, I understand you perfectly if the case is in the real World:


Me: I want to major in Computer Science in college! And I do NOT mind a lot of reading and studying!
Counselor: That's great!
Me: So, I'm planning to take thee Java, C++ and stuff like that, perhaps throw in a couple of Physical Education classes, I'm a computer geek and a big basketball fan.
Counselor: you won't get all of those at the same time in the first year, you will need to take some pre-requisite classes in the first two year of college.
Me: WHY? I just want to be best programmer in the World, why do I have to take Physics, Calculus, World History, English and Speech? I thought I have freedom to become what I want in life!
Counselor: If you want to become the best programmer out there, you should take all these classes and get yourself prepared. Otherwise, you have the freedom to read the textbooks yourself and try to learn it by yourself, or go take the certified classes, but most likely you won't be hired by the Fortune 500 companies.
Me: WTF!? When I immigrated to America, they told me this country is all about FREEDOM!!! they lied!
Counselor: As I said, you have the freedom to be the programmer out there, you don't have to go to college to learn it, you can learn it by yourself if you can.

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 1:38pm by Mostaru
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#73 Aug 16 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
@Toryu
Got it. All I'm asking for is the freedom not to be a hybrid and still be good at my role.
Not forced hybridization disguised as freedom.

Seems like it took a post as long as yours to make that clear after all. Thanks.



Yeah, sorry, I tend to ramble, especially since I rarely post, and usually only post to something I feel strongly about. I just dislike how some people outwardly state opinions that call for argument, such as the "freedom not to play". I also don't understand how people can be blatantly ignorant; some think this is a beta mirroring the final copy or the other side of it just an abstract beta to test areas and is far from the final copy, but many tend to forget that either way, there is no endgame content available. ****, in my opinion and from what we know, I say cap that Lancer, then when that's done go for the other stuff to enhance it to your liking if you want. I don't think anyone other then the designers truly know if a capped job is better then a hybridized job, and we won't know until some serious number crunchers put experimentation across all styles including hybrids and individualized capped jobs. Speculation can be fun and no one should be blatantly told they're wrong unless there is fact behind one or the other.
#74 Aug 16 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Seems to me that this is a perfect analogy to going to school/college. Sure, there's a bunch of work and studying that seem pointless towards your major, but plowing through it for the degree anyway is worth it, right?

(Assuming your degree isn't in basketweaving with a minor in Kazakstan-ish)

In FFXI (like most MMOs) the concept was that hard work (grinding subjobs, meriting, etc) makes you stronger, and that work is respectable. Not that playing games should seem like a tedious job, but that what you work harder for, you respect more (as do others).

In FFXIV, I'm guessing the same approach is used. The more skills you have access to, the more equipped you are for handling the challenges. Yeah, your main job will level slower, but that's the balance you strike for versatility.

So what it really comes down to is, do you accept this trade off or not? Y/N (Press ENTER)

(this basket is the... greatest, in the U S and A! HIGH FIVE!)

edit-- sadface +1, Mostaru made my point 5 mins before I pressed submit :( +1

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 12:45pm by Evilhobbit
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#75 Aug 16 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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Just to clarify part of what Rinsui is talking about. Each class has some passive traits which can be purchased at guild trainers using credits for that guild. These are things like "Receive 10% more healing" for Pugilist or "Generate 10% more enmity" for Marauder. There are a few traits that seem to be actively bad for the class that gets them, such as a physical class getting -10 strength, +10 intellect as a passive, purchasable trait.

Keep in mind that these traits can be equipped and unequipped whenever you want, and they work cross class, so arguably, if you wanted to be the bestest ever at your class, you'd go and play most of the other classes just to cherry pick these passive traits, on top of whatever active abilities you might actually like from certain classes.

The best explanation I can give is this: S-E does want you to experiment with many different classes. That's the design of the game, that's how it's intended to be played. These passive traits are simply a way to encourage you to try out a class you wouldn't otherwise play, and they even give you more flexibility to swap from class to class as needed.

It is entirely possible that some day, when we've had years to play and understand the game, that people will want you to have the proper passive traits for your role or class. Some one may indeed expect you to level your Thaumaturge to 25 so that your level 50 gladiator gets the 10 extra strength, and level your marauder so you get the extra enmity, and level your pugilist so you get the extra healing, etc. However, I think those days a LONG way off, sort of like the way that when FFXI came out, people didn't expect you to have every job and sub job leveled with a full set of gear just in case you need to switch.

Just realize that this is the intended design of the game. Just as you are intended to take on epic quests if you want the best gear, you are expected to level different classes to cherry pick the best abilities and traits for your preferred class. You still have an enormous amount of freedom in terms of how you do that, at what pace, etc.
#76 Aug 16 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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Mostaru wrote:
Hey Rinsui, I understand you perfectly if the case is in the real World:


Me: I want to major in Computer Science in college! And I do NOT mind a lot of reading and studying!
Counselor: That's great!
Me: So, I'm planning to take thee Java, C++ and stuff like that, perhaps throw in a couple of Physical Education classes, I'm a computer geek and a big basketball fan.
Counselor: you won't get all of those at the same time in the first year, you will need to take some pre-requisite classes in the first two year of college.
Me: WHY? I just want to be best programmer in the World, why do I have to take Physics, Calculus, World History, English and Speech? I thought I have freedom to become what I want in life!
Counselor: If you want to become the best programmer out there, you should take all these classes and get yourself prepared. Otherwise, you have the freedom to read the textbooks yourself and try to learn it by yourself, or go take the certified classes, but most likely you won't be hired by the Fortune 500 companies.
Me: WTF!? When I immigrated to America, they told me this country is all about FREEDOM!!! they lied!
Counselor: As I said, you have the freedom to be the programmer out there, you don't have to go to college to learn it, you can learn it by yourself if you can.

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 1:38pm by Mostaru


Well.. this scenario is kind of correct, but not very good because you can go to college non-matriculated, take the courses you want and get certified, take adult education classes individually and get certified, or just simply go, take the courses you want as matriculated if you need the financial aid, then withdraw without completing the degree. No counselor in their right mind will say, do this or get out... even community colleges would rather put you on track to meet your goals, even if it ultimately keeps you from an actual degree; their goal is your education, not to set you up for failure. SE seems to know this too, hence all the crafting professions turning into actual jobs... or career choice per example. Typically one could not reach top in crafting without having a steady flow of goods, such as endgame drops or endgame zone ingredients, or at minimal, a top level alt/main to gather or feed for the crafting alt. SE has stated in interviews that one can go all the way to the end of the game and never battle. So right there is the counselor giving more options then "degree or gtfo".
#77 Aug 16 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis the Prohpet wrote:
Just to clarify part of what Rinsui is talking about. Each class has some passive traits which can be purchased at guild trainers using credits for that guild. These are things like "Receive 10% more healing" for Pugilist or "Generate 10% more enmity" for Marauder. There are a few traits that seem to be actively bad for the class that gets them, such as a physical class getting -10 strength, +10 intellect as a passive, purchasable trait.

Keep in mind that these traits can be equipped and unequipped whenever you want, and they work cross class, so arguably, if you wanted to be the bestest ever at your class, you'd go and play most of the other classes just to cherry pick these passive traits, on top of whatever active abilities you might actually like from certain classes.

The best explanation I can give is this: S-E does want you to experiment with many different classes. That's the design of the game, that's how it's intended to be played. These passive traits are simply a way to encourage you to try out a class you wouldn't otherwise play, and they even give you more flexibility to swap from class to class as needed.

It is entirely possible that some day, when we've had years to play and understand the game, that people will want you to have the proper passive traits for your role or class. Some one may indeed expect you to level your Thaumaturge to 25 so that your level 50 gladiator gets the 10 extra strength, and level your marauder so you get the extra enmity, and level your pugilist so you get the extra healing, etc. However, I think those days a LONG way off, sort of like the way that when FFXI came out, people didn't expect you to have every job and sub job leveled with a full set of gear just in case you need to switch.

Just realize that this is the intended design of the game. Just as you are intended to take on epic quests if you want the best gear, you are expected to level different classes to cherry pick the best abilities and traits for your preferred class. You still have an enormous amount of freedom in terms of how you do that, at what pace, etc.


That's pretty cool...thanks for adding some much needed details on the subject. That actually makes me more excited to play now...and, ironically doesn't this increase the amount of freedom we have for customization?
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#78 Aug 16 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Give the OP and everyone else a chance to play their style


No one it preventing you from playing this game the way you want. If you want a skill that a high level Conjurer gets, you better believe you are going to have to level your conjurer to a high level. You are free to not level the conjurer but you are also free to level the conjurer and get that skill you want. The OP is saying that his 'freedom' is the only 'freedom'.

Imagine how much freedom there would be if you weren't allowed to share skills between classes. There wouldn't be any freedom, you would be forced into cookie-cutter classes designed by SE. I guess the OP would call that freedom, because he is free to not have to level any other class that he wants.

SE's definition of freedom is the player has the choice to level whatever classes he/she wants and combine skills from those classes for a more 'create-your-own' type class system. I don't think they are expectingg people to be so single class oriented, but SE sure isn't preveting you from taking that path (But the FFXIV Community might, if it provides a subpar amout of damage in comparison). If SE designed all the classes, pure and hybrid, to provide the same amount of damage regardless, then the game would just be boring.

Either way the OP is trolling because he really just wants someone else to bad-mouth SE about what he believes is a false freedom.

Quote:
Quote:
In the end, "freedom of playstyle" is just different degrees of pigeonholing.


Now that's actually an explanation I can live with.
Thank you.
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#79 Aug 16 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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I like the fact that you have to level other classes to be at the thereotical Max Power for any one class.

If you want to just level one class straight through, but then expect to be on par with people who have put forth extra effort to unlock the other classes abilities/bonuses, then something.
#80 Aug 16 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Default
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AlvinTheChip wrote:
You have the freedom not to play.


ahahaha
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#81 Aug 16 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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Mictam wrote:
Quote:
Give the OP and everyone else a chance to play their style


No one it preventing you from playing this game the way you want. If you want a skill that a high level Conjurer gets, you better believe you are going to have to level your conjurer to a high level. You are free to not level the conjurer but you are also free to level the conjurer and get that skill you want. The OP is saying that his 'freedom' is the only 'freedom'.

Imagine how much freedom there would be if you weren't allowed to share skills between classes. There wouldn't be any freedom, you would be forced into cookie-cutter classes designed by SE. I guess the OP would call that freedom, because he is free to not have to level any other class that he wants.

SE's definition of freedom is the player has the choice to level whatever classes he/she wants and combine skills from those classes for a more 'create-your-own' type class system. I don't think they are expectingg people to be so single class oriented, but SE sure isn't preveting you from taking that path (But the FFXIV Community might, if it provides a subpar amout of damage in comparison). If SE designed all the classes, pure and hybrid, to provide the same amount of damage regardless, then the game would just be boring.

Either way the OP is trolling because he really just wants someone else to bad-mouth SE about what he believes is a false freedom.

Quote:
Quote:
In the end, "freedom of playstyle" is just different degrees of pigeonholing.


Now that's actually an explanation I can live with.
Thank you.


Actually, if you go back many months, there was an interview where the producer said outright about how an Archer can be just an Archer, or they can be an Archer and a Woodworker to make tier own ammo. He then went on to say though this is possible, he also stated that if the Archer focused purely on being an Archer he would be stronger in the long run as an Archer. So what he was saying is make your own goods and be good, or buy some arrows and possibly be stronger. So using the economics of the game and how he states it, pure Lancer could conceivably be stronger then hybridized lancer, and if you refute this by saying its a DoH and not a DoW, then realize time is time, and that in itself is a major backbone to basic economics, regardless of what the subject is.
#82 Aug 16 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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RufuSwho wrote:
I like the fact that you have to level other classes to be at the thereotical Max Power for any one class.

If you want to just level one class straight through, but then expect to be on par with people who have put forth extra effort to unlock the other classes abilities/bonuses, then something.


Why not? You can only hit one ability at a time, so every buff you add takes away from a swing or attack. If each DD has their own forms of buffing, then why shouldn't that be enough if those are the abilities you like to play with? With grabbing abilities from other jobs, at some point you'll be spamming more buffing abilities then attacking, taking away from your actual damage output over the length of a fight. Its like a Pld in FFXI spamming protect on himself when the mob is almost dead. Swing the sword a couple more times and kill the darn thing, why prolong its death? Better example and more along these lines of DD: Mnk spamming Boost... resets each melee attack, and since FFXIV has no auto attack, this will be more apparent. I've seen mnks boost every cd, slowing their dps tremendously. Think mnk/war or war/mnk: boost, zerk, warcry, maybe another boost or other ability.... that's a possible wasted 3 or 4 attacks(or maybe more, I dunno) in endgame in favor of a small boost in a dmg spike, and if its a war with a GA, then your dps is just crap because you aren't swinging, and GFB you miss with those boosted buffs. So to translate to FFXIV... if you're spamming buffs, when are you actually going to press an actual attack?

Theoretically as you put it, this would state that abilities given to one class that pertains to that class can theoretically make it on par with any other class and their abilities, hybrid or not. Most of the damage will come out of that weapon's actual attack, buffing can only go so far before it starts to backfire. I rather swing 5 times with a pre-buff or two rather then swing once or twice buffing three or four times. And to add to abilities that are actual dmg abilities, unless there is a spammable ability that outdoes the natural weapon's ability with no extra cost to use, then that ability is most likely trivial or a possible waste of time economically. There are of course exceptions, like turning a Thurm into a healer since it has a lot of mp gaining abilities, one could level Conj for all the healing spells, or perhaps a tank grabbing a couple extra taunts from another class, but like I stated before, you can only hit one button at a time and specialization is more economical and could very well be just as strong. Lancer maxed with just Lancer skills could be just as strong as Lancer with hybrid build on the same grounds, maybe better, maybe worse(but again, all speculation and until all facets are tested and proven in the final version in endgame, which will take months if players take the challenge) and no one can prove you or myself right or wrong. Don't make solid assumptions until there's proof.
#83 Aug 16 2010 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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To quickly and directly answer the OP question with kindness and love. SE's definition of "freedom" is freedom to create your own hybrid class by obtaining skills from different classes as well as the skills from your main. No forcing, no bullying. If you want it get it use it. If not dont. Now you have been enlightened. Accept it or move on. :)
#84 Aug 16 2010 at 9:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I look at it this way, every class has dud abilities we don't use often or at all. For every one of those lancer has, you can replace with a useful marauder or pugilist ability. Now its possible that at level cap, someone could feel that they can use all their traits/ability points with good stuff from one class, thats fine, but I somehow doubt it.
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#85 Aug 16 2010 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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Reading between the lines, I think the OP's problem lies more with the community, than with the game itself.

I think the point that he is making is that in some MMO's all endgame players (and some before endgame) have an idea of who they want to play with. There is no deviation allowed from the "optimal" tree in WoW. There is no deviation allowed from a particular sub job in FFXI. If you do not conform to the communities idea of what is right - you will not get party invites.

The OP's issue is that if the community determines that a lancer must have a particular skill that can only be gained from levelling Conjurer then he must level conjurer or be a social outcast. He does not want to have to level conjurer therefore any fun he could have at endgame ends as he will not get a party invite.

This is not a problem with the game, as he is free to level lancer and never touch conjurer should he wish to do so. BUT he must level conjurer if he wants to take part in any endgame activity.

I agree with him in that this will happen if the community sees that skill as necessary (or even desireable) which means that IF the comments are accurate, someone playing lancer in endgame IS going to have to level Conjurer.

Community pressure in games like FFXI can very quickly put an end to the fun!
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#86 Aug 16 2010 at 11:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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HallieXIV wrote:
Community pressure in games like FFXI can very quickly put an end to the fun!


Unfortunately for all involved, this is not a trait specific to MMORPGs, it is in effect in real life.

I can't wear jeans and a shirt to my wedding, I have to wear a suit or a tux. I don't like getting formally dressed up, but this is what is expected of me.

We cannot show up to work whenever we feel like it, we will get fired if this happens. While some of us would enjoy sleeping in -and- leaving early, this is not the way a job works.

I tend to walk around the house in my underwear but I cannot go out in public looking like this. It may be less comfortable for me to put on clothing but the rest of the world would not appreciate seeing my pasty-white body.

Sometimes people cut me off in traffic, I feel like slamming into them, getting out, and punching them in the face. Unfortunately, PvP is frowned upon IRL.


In conclusion, people in MMORPGs, like society, have certain expectations of people. We can't just do whatever we want, we are expected to live by certain rules that we may not like, but we do them anyway.
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#87 Aug 16 2010 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
Community pressure in games like FFXI can very quickly put an end to the fun!


Unfortunately for all involved, this is not a trait specific to MMORPGs, it is in effect in real life.

I can't wear jeans and a shirt to my wedding, I have to wear a suit or a tux. I don't like getting formally dressed up, but this is what is expected of me.

We cannot show up to work whenever we feel like it, we will get fired if this happens. While some of us would enjoy sleeping in -and- leaving early, this is not the way a job works.

I tend to walk around the house in my underwear but I cannot go out in public looking like this. It may be less comfortable for me to put on clothing but the rest of the world would not appreciate seeing my pasty-white body.

Sometimes people cut me off in traffic, I feel like slamming into them, getting out, and punching them in the face. Unfortunately, PvP is frowned upon IRL.


In conclusion, people in MMORPGs, like society, have certain expectations of people. We can't just do whatever we want, we are expected to live by certain rules that we may not like, but we do them anyway.


I did not pass any judgement on whether it was right or wrong - just that it happens.

As a rule I dont have a problem with it - its life, you have to live by the rules. The problem arises when a vocal minority set the rules for the community overall. When democracy falls to a few "popular kids" in the playground and whilst their rules might not be right - everyone else must follow.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out in FFXIV. There may be a variety of "builds" that are equally good - but a few high level players (who will be the first to get up there because they can play 12 hours per day) will have their view as to what is acceptable and that view will be forced on anyone else who wants to be in the clique.

I just hope that everyone has an open mind. I hope this stays until we work out the best combinations of skills for each role.

Of course, none of this really affects me anymore. I dont tend to play with the hardcore anymore as I have a job and a family. I will join a more social/fun guild rather than look to be the most powerful Conjurer on the server with the highest DD potential.
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#88 Aug 17 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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HallieXIV wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
Community pressure in games like FFXI can very quickly put an end to the fun!


Unfortunately for all involved, this is not a trait specific to MMORPGs, it is in effect in real life.

I can't wear jeans and a shirt to my wedding, I have to wear a suit or a tux. I don't like getting formally dressed up, but this is what is expected of me.

We cannot show up to work whenever we feel like it, we will get fired if this happens. While some of us would enjoy sleeping in -and- leaving early, this is not the way a job works.

I tend to walk around the house in my underwear but I cannot go out in public looking like this. It may be less comfortable for me to put on clothing but the rest of the world would not appreciate seeing my pasty-white body.

Sometimes people cut me off in traffic, I feel like slamming into them, getting out, and punching them in the face. Unfortunately, PvP is frowned upon IRL.


In conclusion, people in MMORPGs, like society, have certain expectations of people. We can't just do whatever we want, we are expected to live by certain rules that we may not like, but we do them anyway.


I did not pass any judgement on whether it was right or wrong - just that it happens.

As a rule I dont have a problem with it - its life, you have to live by the rules. The problem arises when a vocal minority set the rules for the community overall. When democracy falls to a few "popular kids" in the playground and whilst their rules might not be right - everyone else must follow.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out in FFXIV. There may be a variety of "builds" that are equally good - but a few high level players (who will be the first to get up there because they can play 12 hours per day) will have their view as to what is acceptable and that view will be forced on anyone else who wants to be in the clique.

I just hope that everyone has an open mind. I hope this stays until we work out the best combinations of skills for each role.

Of course, none of this really affects me anymore. I dont tend to play with the hardcore anymore as I have a job and a family. I will join a more social/fun guild rather than look to be the most powerful Conjurer on the server with the" highest DD potential.


I think you're mistaken. The first people at cap don't set these standards. What usually ends up happening is that you get a bunch of people parsing a lot of data to figure out what is optimal. Some abilities and traits are more obvious than others, for example if you're a DD and you can set dodge+ or accuracy+ as a trait, then go with accuracy. If you have Attack+ or Magic+ and you are a caster, magic is better.

Beyond that, it's up to parsers to tell us the optimal builds and how to eke out that extra 1% boost here and there.

It has little to do with "Whoever gets there first makes the decisions for everyone". Usually the optimalcombinations tend to be pretty apparent to anyone. To cite FFXI examples, arguments could be made in favor of WAR/DRG or WAR/SAM or WAR/NIN in X situation vs Y situation, but things like WAR/SMN or WAR/COR are just bad builds comparatively.

Few people are going to expect everyone to know that this piece of gear vs that piece of gear will give you a 0.5% damageincrease over an hour,but most people will expect people to know things like "Don't wear STR rings on a Conjurer" or "Equipping -Accuracy/+Defence abilities on aDD is a stupid idea".

It's all situational and I don't have specific examples that I can relate to XIV yet though.
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#89 Aug 17 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Default
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I accept your points Mikhalia.

The main thrust of what I was trying to say though was that regardless of whether it is the first to the cap that set the rules, or "the parsers" determining one build is 0.5% better than another - a player will be expected to comply with community expectation even if that decreases their enjoyment of the game.

The OP may not want to level Conjurer to lvl 35 to gain a particular skill on his Lancer....

But the parsers have said he must, so he must or otherwise he will not be allowed to take part in Endgame with the big kids who have decided that the extra 0.5% is absolutely essential.

This is an element of what is referred to as elitism! To the OP though, I would say that I am sure there will be lots of LS's out there where the game is played for fun - and that extra 0.5% is not necessary. As a result I wouldnt worry too much.

Some of the best times I ever had on FFXI were wipes! Funny, funny wipes of panic!

Horses for courses.
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#90 Aug 17 2010 at 12:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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HallieXIV wrote:
I accept your points Mikhalia.

The main thrust of what I was trying to say though was that regardless of whether it is the first to the cap that set the rules, or "the parsers" determining one build is 0.5% better than another - a player will be expected to comply with community expectation even if that decreases their enjoyment of the game.

The OP may not want to level Conjurer to lvl 35 to gain a particular skill on his Lancer....

But the parsers have said he must, so he must or otherwise he will not be allowed to take part in Endgame with the big kids who have decided that the extra 0.5% is absolutely essential.

This is an element of what is referred to as elitism! To the OP though, I would say that I am sure there will be lots of LS's out there where the game is played for fun - and that extra 0.5% is not necessary. As a result I wouldnt worry too much.

Some of the best times I ever had on FFXI were wipes! Funny, funny wipes of panic!

Horses for courses.


Well the argument could be made that if 0.5% makes the difference between a win and a wipe, you're doing it wrong. .5% is nice, but it shouldn't make or break something. Now if you have a group of 20 people and they're all performing at 100.5%, then that totals up to an extra 10% overall, which is significant. The thing about performance is that if everyone does less than their best then it becomes cumulatively worse and the results are progressively lower.

However, to set that aside, very few reasonable people are going to exclude you based on .5%. Few would boot a level 60 WAR wearing a Haubergeon instead of a Haubergeon +1. Few people would boot a 40WHM wearing Electrum rings instead of astral (or ether) rings. Few people will boot a NIN for wearing AF2 legs instead of Haidate.

On the other hand, many people would boot that WAR for using AF body. Many people would boot that WHM if they had Balance Rings. Many people would boot that NIN if he didn't have Utsusemi.

There's a difference between reasonable expectations and unreasonable ones. Very very very few people will outright boot you over unreasonable expectations. And if they do, **** them anyway.
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#91 Aug 17 2010 at 4:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nothing wrong with the number crunching to find the best setups and then have certain expectations for people to be striving towards to be the best at their jobs. Beyond that, where it hurts the freedom and sense of adventure even more is when people refuse to do certain quests/missions/whatever without that one exact party setup. That always annoyed me. Like Hallie mentioned, sometimes failures & wipes were some of the funnest parts of the game for me because we tried somethin' different and had fun. And if it was a success it was even more of a victory. I had some proud moments when I'd finish a fight by myself with a job that wasn't the best at soloing despite people saying you should take a trio or atleast duo it. Kept me on my toes, one screwup and I would've been dead, but that made it more exciting.

I'd like to see more people keeping that sense of freedom & adventure in XIV. Sure people will say "this is the best setup for your class and this is the only way to win that fight" but it only becomes a rule when everyone else blindly follows it without experimenting on their own. That just kinda kills the point of it being a fun video game for me. And it does help create the elitism and the game stops being a game, but more of a job.

#92 Aug 17 2010 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think alot of players are going to require specific off-job abilities, they're going to consider them perks. If I'm inviting a lancer, its because I want them to have the core lancer abilities (seems like melee buffs, mob debuffs)

It seems like SE's focus with this game, was playing with alot of weapons, being able to change classes often, and using other classes abilities. I think most people will have more fun doing this rather than going pure classes, but if they don't its still not going to be the end of the world.

In every game you're going to find people min maxing, and usually they form their own tight LSs, and don't bother pugging much, so it wouldn't be an issue. If a group wants to wait another 30-45 minutes waiting for marauder with 2 conjurer traits, its their choice (loss).
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#93 Aug 17 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Ninja and Ninja subs were a good example of this in FFXI.

In the beginning people were somewhat tolerant of NIN/THF holding a G.Katana then eventually not so much because the lack of overall damage output and hate holding. If that same NIN spammed shuriken, then it might be a different story.

Later after NIN/WAR was the standard and NIN all over got bored, things like NIN/RNG and NIN/BLM came up, (the only real thing holding the former back was gear selection)...

It may not be total freedom (which would be impossible) but there is sometimes an irony of creativity in "censorship."

So if you're creative yet do your job I think people will eventually catch on.

And not only do you have to be valuable to your group, but you have to compete for spots in groups.

There are three ways to do what you want: 1. Form a static or, 2. solo or 3. Be the baddest NIN/THF on the server.
#94 Aug 17 2010 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Speeral
Seriously, I must be one of the worst writers in human history,
since I seem unable to get accross my point. I thought it was simple.
I was wrong.

What I mean is not: (attention: "not" is a negation!)

- I want to get all the skills there are without effort
- I want to be the uber-Lancer without a grind

What I mean is:
- Why do I have to play a role I don't like to be better at the
role I like?

It may be a matter of personal opinion, but as I said: Some people
play RPGs to be the "Healer" in a party. Why force them to be a DD
for a lengthy period of their career just to be a good healer?
Doesn't that sound somehow... counterintuitive?

Edited, Aug 16th 2010 11:36am by Rinsui


Well the same way you have to study and learn different subjects in primary and high school so you can get to a college. And I used to hate database programming and cursed it before I graduated, but look where I am now...I am database analyst....

It's the same still when you work. To be able to get into a position you want, you will force yourself to play a "work role" you do might not want.

But then this game isn't finish, hasn't even been in production yet, I am pretty sure no one has figured out the best abilities to use. So maybe by end of the year that ability you are coveting from another class that you think may be perfect, may not even be that great overall.
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#95 Aug 17 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I understand what the OP is getting at. When it comes to the grind of wanting to customize yourself it may seem a tad out of the way to really customize yourself to be the way you want. That one skill you really want will end up taking days to obtain however if there was an implementation to alter the way skills are gained when leveling another combat class it could at least lessen the amount of levels needed to gain a skill. Without going to in depth with it the core idea is, You're leveling Gladiator as a second class but instead of gaining skills when you would, you are instead given skill points for that class.

-The skill points are always equal to the amount of the cost of the abilities for that level.
-If you save up and purchase a higher level ability for the main class Ex. Gladiator 10 purchases a lv 20 ability,
they wouldn't be able to equip the ability on their Gladiator but they would be able to equip it on any War or Magic
class as long as it was lv 20 or higher Basically
Glad 10 X Glad skill 20
Pug 4 X Glad skill 20
Lanc 33 O Glad skill 20

However when the player obtains Glad level 20 it turns into:
Glad 20 O Glad skill 20
Pug 4 O Glad skill 20
Lanc 33 O Glad skill 20

I do understand there would have to be limitations put in for skill that go in tiers where you can't get fire II if you haven't tagged the skill for Fire but the general idea is it would at least limit the unnecessary grind to obtain that one skill out of all the other skills the player may see as useless.

I do wonder though what they actually mean by Archer would be stronger then an Archer who levels Carpenter it could just be that the main Archer levels up faster but overall they may end up being equal to one another when they hit cap or the Marks aspect will play a big focus into determining the difference between a person who purely focuses on one class and another who switches between.

As for number crunching, I wonder how different the numbers will actually be in the end or heck if zerging will really be a viable strat to use where it may be wise to sit and wait and act with those battle regimens rather then constantly attacking. Just because we had auto-attack in XI doesn't mean we necessarily need to always be attacking in XIV, at times it may be wise to wait and see how the monster reacts or pull away if it looks like they may attempt a devastating attack, though the latter is done in XI.

Overall hopefully what SE can improve over what XI offered is having each class rely on skill rather then having the best of everything. In the sense that as long as the player can play well in their setup and know how their strategy works there really should be no need to have staple builds within the game. What will really define a player's high marks will not be their ability to level multiple classes but how well they can utilize the skills they have available to them and the ability to adjust them to the situation they may be in for.
#96 Aug 17 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is what I think about the freedoms of FFXIV...

♫What would you do
If you were asked to change your class for freedom?
What would you do
If asked to make the class level sacrifice?♫

♫Would you think about all them people
Who gave up all the levels they had?
Would you think about all them FFXI players
And would you start to feel bad?♫

♫Freedom isn't free
It costs PC’s like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty F*@kin' fee.
And if you don't throw in your 12.99
Who will?♫

♫What would you do
If someone told you to use magic for freedom?
Would you answer the call
Or run away like a little pu$$y?
'Cause the only reason that you're here
Is 'cause folks play FF in the past
So maybe now it's your turn
To exp in a different calls♫

♫Freedom isn't free
It costs PC’s like you and me
And if we don't all chip in
We'll never pay that bill
Freedom isn't free
No, there's a hefty F*@kin' fee.
And if you don't throw in your 12.99
Who will?♫

♫You don't throw in your 12.99. Who will?
Oooh 12.99
Freedom costs 12.99♫
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#97 Aug 17 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I do wonder though what they actually mean by Archer would be stronger then an Archer who levels Carpenter it could just be that the main Archer levels up faster but overall they may end up being equal to one another when they hit cap or the Marks aspect will play a big focus into determining the difference between a person who purely focuses on one class and another who switches between.


I am almost positive that is referring to pre cap. An Archer who spent 50 hours on archer, is going to be higher (and more powerful) than someone who spent 35 on archer and 15 on carpenter. Dev's dont usually talk about endgame before release, most of the time they are referring to the leveling process. If they really do set stats in stone when you hit endgame, I would imagine there'd be enough outrage to get that changed, since it seems alot of players are worried about it.
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#98 Aug 17 2010 at 12:47 PM Rating: Default
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AlvinTheChip wrote:
You have the freedom not to play.


I think everything he said flew completely over your head.
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#99 Aug 17 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Default
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Rinsui wrote:
Now, now.
We all know HelloKitty Online is full of hardcore grinding.
So I guess that was just a "witty" attempt to discredit my
opinion by putting me into the casual-corner.

I just don't think it makes a lot of sense to have to play
a lot of Conjurer/Thaumaturge/Gladiator/Botanist when all
I want to do is oplaying Lancer. Is my opinion really that
irrational?


No I understand what your saying. It's the sub j system all over again and I really don't like it. I think it has to do with the way SE lets you use one character for all jobs is the reason they are doing it. But yeah, this game is looking more and more like FF XI HD.
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#100 Aug 17 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Default
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It sounds to me like you want the best of Lancer to come from simply leveling a Lancer up.
That's reasonable and all, sure, but you're taking away from the sub-traits system that has been implemented. It greatly adds to customization and allows you to make a character that is truly unique. What you're spouting is simply nonsense. The freedom is given to you. You can build your Lancer however you feel like. How do you know Conjurer and Gladiator have the best traits for your Lancer? Some classes have not even been released!
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#101 Aug 17 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Default
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Realistically, if you get that Lancer to cap and are in a good endgame shell, all they will basically do is say keep smacking the mob until it dies, don't take too much hate doing it, and run if there's a sign of incoming aoe. I don't see the NEED for any abilities outside the class you choose to play unless you WANT to play it differently then how it is delivered. The reasons go back to my earlier responses. You only hit one button at a time and have a limited number of spots for abilities to set, like Blu in FFXI, and a crew is going to want you debuffing if necessary and swinging as a DD, perhaps some natural class buffs as well if available. Most realistic endgame shells typically have their tanks and healers set and either look for specialization for backup or straight up damage dealers, usually a mix so looting is more fair and debuff/buffs are utilized to the fullest(I know there's suppose to be an end triad, but realistically there will be some form, otherwise taunts and shields are pointless and so are abundances of cure spells). If charts come out eventually that show major improvements with hybridization, then that's a different story. That's going to take a while which means all styles will be tested. Until numbers come out, no one in their right mind can sit there and say how it's going to be at endgame.

There may be enough of a nerf of abilities in endgame to make hybridization weaker then many of you all let on. I mean seriously, take FFXI. How many of you went into endgame with your first 75, only 1 subjob, most likely not the "right" subjob and no merits and everyone said GTFO? Seriously... I mean for DRG, a good crew may say get that /rdm or /whm to help heal or /war is good, but on Kirin we need you as /sam, so work on it. The first thing they will ask is if you have Angon merited to cap. Realistic question, seeing how it is a goal of all Drgs mains to get capped; and you know you won't be kicked if as long it is your class goal to get it. On the same note, how many of you had Pld or Smn, or anyother as your main, but came as other 75s instead due to need, meaning merits were nerfed, and in many cases so was gear compared to your mains? There is absolutely no way a good crew will take a hybridized guy that went to a pre-conceived cookie-cutter who didn't know why over a committed, solid specialist... especially while this game is new. Thats why I say let him play the way he wants, just like I will feel it out my way. If someone NEEDS that 1 ability outside their class for the LS to down a boss, then it's the LS's fault and that's a poor excuse. No one wiped to JoL because a single blm came /smn and didn't have stoneskin or a drg merited str and dex before getting jumps merited down. It doesn't happen. A good LS knows variety is key, and that may involve needing different styles.

If you all are going to be closed minded before we really know how the game works, then you all may as well team up now and form your own LS and only recruit others who feel as elite, meanwhile the rest of us will enjoy the game and actually feel it out as it goes along. Give me final crunched numbers between hybrids, specialists (and I mean level every job to cap and do EVERY single combination possible), use the same gear and weapon; do it the scientific way and then re-post this thread. Otherwise those who feel they are already right should just STFU because you have no proof; you act like the spreadsheets are done and you have them, some act like they are the ones that did them. Seriously, WoW's subscription costs about the same as this and the numbers are crunched already, as well as all the strats; don't take that juvenile mindset here. And for you all that use real life examples here, I mean seriously, stfu, you always have a choice, including career choice, education style.. blah blah blah. This is a game and one we don't know the specifics yet. Just like it's your choice to post "solid" idiotic assumptions like you're in SE's design hall crunching data to balance the game. I plan slight hybridization, but that's my freedom, and trust me, I will be in endgame rockin' some sweet gear with an intelligent and fun crew regardless of my path as this game develops. I also predict the OP will be rocking Lancer straight to the end and know his specialized class well enough to tear some s* up! Like I've been saying all along, PROVE IT, or post your opinions as opinions and not fact.

Edited, Aug 17th 2010 3:57pm by Toryu
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