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FFXIV at the moment caters to solo playFollow

#1 Aug 17 2010 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I concur with all of the following comments on partying in FFXIV as I am also in beta and experience all of these things. It is worth reading each person's comment because if we dont do anything about it, its going to end up the way of World of Warcraft. We need to make a voice!!

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It may just be me, or I may be doing things wrong, but it seems to me that it's counterproductive to group up to do... anything. In a group you get about 250 experience for a kill, versus solo where you get 1010 experience. Though groups do kill mobs faster than solo, they don't kill them 4-5 times faster. As a conjurer, I definitely get less skill points while in a group, especially if I focus on healing the group (as I usually do).


Quote:
Please make FFXIV more party based. I missed the community aspect that was in FFXI. Despite the fact that i used to wish to solo sometimes in XI, I think being forced to party in order to get higher in levels was much more fun. I was able to meet a lot of great people and i would love to experience that in FFXIV. Right now it seems as though no one really wants to party and are mainly just focused on soloing these levequests. Also, I think it is also a bit more difficult to party...well, from what i have experienced. The mobs tend to move around a lot and don't seem to want to sit still (Aldgoat Nannies in particular). This makes it hard to set up a camp...which i would like to be able to do again, instead of running around attacking mobs. To be honest, I would love it if FFXIV could just be a better version of XI. XI was a great hardcore MMORPG.


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It seems this game is starting out the opposite way, heavily biased toward solo play. I don't understand that because the appeal of playing multiplayer online games is being able to enjoy the game with other people.


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There definately needs to be some greater benefits to being in a party than just tackling a higher difficulty leve (of which the benefits aren't that worth it anyway). I hate referencing WoW because these are entirely different levels of MMORPG, but a party or raid in WoW was able to get substantially more impressive loot. Both equipment and reagents. XP was never really a goal when being in a party, but equipment certainly was. Some sort of benefit needs to emerge, other than just tackling a more difficult leve. Equipment, money, XP, something needs to stand out as a reason to party, otherwise people will just solo to the top, get bored, and change games.


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I know SE is trying to encourage interaction, but they need to make it more desirable. This goes for the party system. Some of the not wanting to party comes from the sluggish UI, but a lot comes from the fact that there is almost nothing to gain from it. I get far more exp just soloing mobs than I can in a party since the skill points are based on how much you specifically hit, which may or may not be a lot since there are other people doing damage to the mobs as well. On the other hand, I can go solo some mobs and get all of the skill points from it because I'm the one that did all the damage.

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Partying needs to be incentivized. When in a two-man party, EXP was cut by half but we did not kill enemies twice as fast. EXP should be balanced so that soloing is possible but partying is more efficient. Partying needs to be rewarded or no one will do it. Battle regimens are also very confusing, but that’s just because we haven’t had any instruction. If there’s not an NPC around somewhere who explains how to do it, we could benefit from one.


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Plain and simple...I MISS PARTY CAMPING! Just being able to hang out in one spot at any given time and grind exp while socializing with people in your group is the best...it builds on community. This would probably work out better for class quests in general.


Quote:
The party system really feels like you're competing against your party mates to gain exp. I shouldn't feel like my party mates are "stealing" my exp from me. This probably only applies to really low levels, but still, you didn't encourage party play whatsoever with this exp update because it feels much more rewarding to do guildleves by yourself.


Quote:
Overall, the party system has some major flaws that need to be worked out. FFXIV currently seems to be more focused on solo play rather than party play. Most people would consider this FFXI-2, which if done correctly a lot of people will love FFXIV just as much as XI. Some solo content is nice, the guildleves seem to be partially solving that, but when you can literally do everything more efficiently while soloing, it makes the game stale and boring. I want to be around people who I can talk to, have fun with, and actually do something productive rather than sit around gaining crap exp when I could gain more exp soloing.



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Finding a party is hard. You can't tell who is looking for a party and even the search system is broken. The search system alone is really hard to use and could be simplified like FFXIs.

2: No rewards. Whats the point? You rarely get skill up. Your physical level sky rockets, and your rank stays low. Solo is quicker for your class ranking. Although a solo aspect of a MMO is nice, its still an MMO. You will expect most of your players wanting to play with other players in some way shape or form.

3: Parties are hard to keep going. This is primarily because of no MP regeneration. Passive / Active mode are fine, but give us a /heal, or refresh MP in some form. In the current state, parties are required to remain close to the aetheryte, stifling exploration and available camp options.


Quote:
There needs to be more incentive to party. I know you guys are making the game solo friendly but c'mon... Theres no reason that exp should be halved for every member that joins. Not everyone wants a WoW clone where we all solo to the level cap. Soloing should NOT be a faster grind than a party.

#2 Aug 17 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Why do people forget this is a beta release right now...? The current system does not reflect the final game. And last I recall they were just now implementing features for party play, weren't they? I hope everyone who's playing beta will realize that their characters will not be transferred over to the new game either.

EDIT: And by the way, there is a tester forum for that very purpose of voicing your opinions. Unless you're in the third wave of testers you should have access to that on SE's private forums for beta testers. Posting it here isn't going to get your concerns across to SE.

Edited, Aug 17th 2010 2:46pm by SamusKnight
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#3 Aug 17 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Dur hur, it's a beta test and they're WANTING people to try out the solo. Doesn't mean the game will be solo heavy and counterproductive in groups when it comes out.
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#4 Aug 17 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Gadhelyn wrote:
Dur hur, it's a beta test and they're WANTING people to try out the solo.

The disparity of reward between solo play and party play has been huge since the beginning of beta. First there was a 1010 EXP cap split evenly between party members; even an easy prey-decent challenge mob would give a solo player 1010 EXP while an IT mob in a party of 3 would give everyone 337.

Now we're in beta 3, and although the EXP has been uncapped, the disparity remains. It is even worse during a leve: I could make 5000 EXP from a single leve kill solo, and 2000-3000 EXP in a duo. The EXP doesn't scale well enough to promote partying, even if you pick a higher difficulty setting for your leve.

Now they've patched in something that has adjusted EXP/skill gain, evening out non-leve solo play a bit. I don't know how it fares in a party or leve now.

Gadhelyn wrote:
Doesn't mean the game will be solo heavy and counterproductive in groups when it comes out.

We'll see, huh.
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#5 Aug 17 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Default
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well actually for guildleves its mor rewarding to due it in a group and thats fact. If you have 3-4 people you choose legion 5 stars for quests and then everyone gets a monster ammount of more exp then they would choosing solo 1 star or 2star band.
#6 Aug 17 2010 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I'd read it somewhere people said the amount of EXP you got in beta is much more than it will be in the released version because SE just wanted people to be able to level up faster so they can test higher level abilities and such.

In terms of party, I'm pretty confident that SE will iron it out when the game is released. I'm not sure what are the rewards for guildleve, but it would make sense to have EXP (physical level), class EXP, money and items (gears or materials), and by completing a higher difficulty level guildleve would get better rewards. That should be reason for people to party, and I'm pretty sure SE would do something to balance it.
#7 Aug 17 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Dur hur


LMAO
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#8 Aug 17 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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statements like
Quote:
This makes it hard to set up a camp...which i would like to be able to do again, instead of running around attacking mobs. To be honest, I would love it if FFXIV could just be a better version of XI

and
Quote:
Plain and simple...I MISS PARTY CAMPING! Just being able to hang out in one spot at any given time and grind exp while socializing with people in your group is the best...it builds on community.

are way too extremist and unrealistic IMO. unrealistic in the sense that, you should want SE to have a wider range of customers so that they have the incentive to make more content. soloing allows players to somewhat ignore the lame players and minuses the bad aspects of a party. Im all for bettering the games group aspect, infact it sounds like the games group aspect is crap right now, but id rather be forced to solo and get the game done on my terms than be forced to party camp one mob at a time in the same spot for hours with zero actual game progression.

SE talks about providing players with options this time around, so instead of wishing for being forced to play one way or another, why not wish for both aspects to be fixed and balanced? grouping needs a good incentive, which it doesnt seem to have at all at this point, standing in one spot for hours is tiring, mind numbing, archaic and no more original than any other way of battling, so why not just fix both?
SE is a massive powerful company who (if they dont already) could have large amounts of people developing for them, so why is solo vs grouping such a hard concept for a company like them to not get right within minutes of idea coming upping with? especially when there is already so much info on how to do things from other games aswell as what we know already works for most people and what doesnt? (im talking about game development in general)



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#9 Aug 17 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's no balance whatsoever in beta therefore it's unrealistic to make any kind of conclusions on solo vs party play.

/thread.
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#10 Aug 17 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There's no balance whatsoever in beta therefore it's unrealistic to make any kind of conclusions on solo vs party play.

/thread.

^ this.
though i personally was talking about SEs MMO developing history in general.
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#11 Aug 17 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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You obviously haven't made it to the level 20 leve's yet. Those are pretty hard to do solo as you get ganged up on by 3 or more mobs. The beginning I could solo like crazy and even do the skull rock leves decent but stuff starts hitting you hard after and you really start to need more people.
#12 Aug 17 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Theonehio hit it on the head.

We can't comment because there will be final changes, and then more changes after that. A dozen patches and maybe we can talk about solo vs party play -- until then it's wasteful to speculate.

However...

I thought it was useful that so many people voiced the same opinion. We are in this together after all and I think that's cool we are pretty much on the same level. I forgot which company coined that phrase ... "it's fun to play together" and I see now it's just a wishful hoping thread that SE doesn't turn it's back on the parties ... but let's look at the facts.

This game is somewhat close to XI in design, theme and spirit.

XI ... you had to party and it was hard if not impossible if you didn't. Honestly just judging from past experiences they will take care of us and they will serve parties righteously. Besides who wants to hang out at the Jeuno wannabe city all alone?

Here is a more serious question....Will gambling games be outlawed???
#13 Aug 17 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Default
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Youa are assuming that a party will be fighting the same mobs as a solo player.

Ie. A solo player gets 1010 exp for fighting a decent challenge, a party of three only gets 337 each. What about if the party of three take down mobs worth much more exp as they are higher level (as will be possible since there are three of them). Suddenly there may be a benefit in partying.

Also, none of these people posting comments summarised in the OP should be in Beta. If you cant realise that the game is beta not final retail release, you should not bother taking part in beta tests!

Who knows what balancing will go on between now and final retail release. And to those that will answer this post with the standard "but we are only X days from release and it is still a problem". The version of the game you are playing is not the release version - it is a specific beta version. The real version is being tested by paid testers in preparation for release. THe beta you are playing has been designed to test certain elements of the game - not to be the game.
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#14 Aug 17 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow, lots of people of little faith and understanding rating me down, huh? Here's the plain and simple facts: the game mechanics in a beta will be messed around with because SE is TESTING things out. This is not a demo.

Quote:
The disparity of reward between solo play and party play has been huge since the beginning of beta.


Really? So throughout the beta test the beta test has been treated as a beta test and not a demo? Go figure. I guess I really must bow before such superior thinking!
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#15 Aug 17 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Gadhelyn wrote:
Wow, lots of people of little faith and understanding rating me down, huh? Here's the plain and simple facts: the game mechanics in a beta will be messed around with because SE is TESTING things out. This is not a demo.

Yeah, and one of the things they're testing is basic balance between exp rewards for solo and party activities. The fact that they haven't changed it over the course of the entire beta would indicate to a reasonably logical individual that they're happy with how it currently is.

Are there other explanations? Of course. Maybe they haven't bothered because there's just not enough beta testers to replicate an actual situation where people would be encouraged to party. But let's not pretend that "HURR DURR IT'S JUST A BETA LOL" is in any way a valid response here, and let's certainly not get extraordinarily haughty that someone disagrees with our simplistic line of thinking.
#16 Aug 17 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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Well yeah, its way to solo friendly right now in the beta. I expect that to change though.
#17 Aug 17 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Default
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
There's no balance whatsoever in beta therefore it's unrealistic to make any kind of conclusions on solo vs party play.

/thread.


Agree'd. This is the Beta therefore how can you say that solo play is being overpowered??? Also if i recall correctly when partying in ff11 it wasn't until the higher lvls that your parties really started to take off.
Believe it was somewhere around the lvl RDM got Refresh and Haste. So perhaps it's like that, parties probly will have a delay in exp gain due to the mp but who knows how it will be at higher lvls and more abilities/spells.
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#18 Aug 17 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Why are we still talking about this? FFXIV at the moment caters to being hit with a baseball bat until it crashes so we can keep the Crack team of SE programming ninjas busy fixing problems.

It exists for this, and for no other reasons. Your participation is essential. Your enjoyment is peripheral.


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#19 Aug 17 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Default
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Majivo wrote:
[quote=Gadhelyn
Are there other explanations? Of course. Maybe they haven't bothered because there's just not enough beta testers to replicate an actual situation where people would be encouraged to party. But let's not pretend that "HURR DURR IT'S JUST A BETA LOL" is in any way a valid response here


It's also pretty much an invalid reasoning to ignore the fact it's a beta as well.

Edited, Aug 17th 2010 5:10pm by Theonehio
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#20Imaboomer, Posted: Aug 17 2010 at 6:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I will simply say this. Those who liked FFXI immensely because of the community and the exp parties will be disappointed. Once u set foot in game, u will notice others around u just run to aether crystal, start their guildleve, and set off. There is no sense of life in the game or community. It feels very dead. People dont communicate, why should they? There is no need to. I hate to say it but right now it feels so much like WoW that I dont even log on anymore... and no i wont give my account away.
#21 Aug 17 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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While I hope parties are the more effective way to advance one's character, and I hope soloing is actually a practical option, I'm not too worried yet based off what I'm hearing.

Like many longtime XI players, I leveled many jobs up to at least the mid 20s and beyond for SJs and to experiment. I didn't start joining parties until 11-14 on those jobs; also, it was an option to continue with fighting EP, DC, and EM until the late teens depending on the job, barring few exceptions that were generally better or worse at early levels for solo play.

Perhaps XIV will be similar in the regard that solo is actually better than group play at lower levels. It's just to early to say.

To agree with the OP though...If solo play is better than group play for a majority or the way or for a majority of unique events, I will be very dissapointed. However, we don't really know that's the case yet do we?

Edited, Aug 17th 2010 8:16pm by TraceKoldKut
#22 Aug 17 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
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take a look at all the serious MMOs... prior to high level it's practically a solo grind to get capped (with the option to do group work, but people rarely would), once at high level it becomes almost purely group work. I bet it'll be the same with XIV
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#23 Aug 17 2010 at 6:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Majivo wrote:
Are there other explanations? Of course. Maybe they haven't bothered because there's just not enough beta testers to replicate an actual situation where people would be encouraged to party. But let's not pretend that "HURR DURR IT'S JUST A BETA LOL" is in any way a valid response here


It's also pretty much an invalid reasoning to ignore the fact it's a beta as well.

Of course, which is why I acknowledged that fact in the rest of my post. But I'm tired of people saying that none of the concerns being brought up are valid just because the game is still in beta. It's like they think the entire face of the game is going to do a 180 as soon as the retail release goes out.
#24 Aug 17 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
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Anyone who bails on a game a result of playing the beta and not having everything perfect should not have been in beta in the first place. You have fundementally failed to comprehend the purpose of beta testing.

As for the post above that SE are obviously happy with exp balance as it has unchanged since alpha - well how do you know the same balance is in the full version of the game.

It is possible that the reason beta is so easy (and beneficial to solo) is that SE want players to solo to test certain elements of the game so they have created a situation where solo'ing is encouraged. MAybe they are so confident that groups work well that they dont want people to group.

IT IS A BETA TEST - you are being shown certain things to encourage you to test certain things. DO NOT EXPECT RETAIL RELEASE TO BE THE SAME.

How do these people get into Beta?
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#25Imaboomer, Posted: Aug 17 2010 at 6:37 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Again, look at all these people who are not a part of beta flaming. I think they are jealous that we got to play and they dont so they rather flame than understand the issue.
#26Almalexia, Posted: Aug 17 2010 at 6:37 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Quit being a ******.
#27 Aug 17 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm in beta and enjoying the game quite a bit but I agree with every single comment quoted in the opening post. Especially agree with the one about MP regeneration, because I too would love to party like the old days in FFXI because lets get real that is the best way to strategize - sit back and put mobs to a camp area - the way it is now is very hectic, very random and very sluggish. Sometimes you'd be even lucky to manage targeting the mob before your party members killed it (UI issues). I'm sure a lot of it will be changed/fixed but even though its beta this stuff is a lot of work and the game is out in one month time.

This said, I will play this game and most likely enjoy it quite a bit but I hope they give it back the FFXI camp and kill sort of feel to it and make partying the better option.
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#28 Aug 17 2010 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Imaboomer wrote:
I will simply say this. Those who liked FFXI immensely because of the community and the exp parties will be disappointed. Once u set foot in game, u will notice others around u just run to aether crystal, start their guildleve, and set off. There is no sense of life in the game or community. It feels very dead. People dont communicate, why should they? There is no need to. I hate to say it but right now it feels so much like WoW that I dont even log on anymore... and no i wont give my account away.


1. What is your character's level in beta?

2. When you play FFXI, what level did you start joining parties? I remember I soloed (or group up with a friend of two, but it's not necessary to party) for my first 15 levels or so.

3. When I played wow, I did solo for a lot of quests, but it was actually faster to party with 2 or 3 players when you do quests. And also, I would join different parties when I go to instances, even mid level instances.

I like playing in parties, but I hate the fact that you HAVE to party in order to level up.
#29 Aug 17 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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I actually like that this game is moving away from forced party play. If I wanted a FFXI-2 I wouldn't have quit the first one.
#30 Aug 17 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think soloing should be a perfectly valid choice for advancing your character. That said, it should take longer, and have much poorer rewards than leveling in a group. I'm throwing my mind back to BST soloing years and years ago in FFXI. It took a lot of skill, a ton of patience, and there was very little room for error; but you could effectively level up your character. Would you get AF? No. Could you solo your genkai? No. the game remained very group-oriented, but you could level solo.

I'd like something similar in FFXIV. Make the good items come from group leves. Make level caps you need to group for.

I understand people being worried that with a month to go there are glaring issues with factors as "simple" as exp/time ratios, but I don't think you have to be, really. If you want to group you still can. If you want to solo, it might be an attractive option at the opening levels but, as mentioned in this thread, at 20 or so you can't do leves effectively without at least one person along.

I'd recommend a "wait and see" mentality when it comes to leveling.

I would adopt a "start panicking" attitude toward the other problems, like the reportedly clunky UI.

I'm just reinforced in my idea that it's not likely to be worth starting 8 days earlier than most players :)
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#31 Aug 17 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
1. What is your character's level in beta?

2. When you play FFXI, what level did you start joining parties? I remember I soloed (or group up with a friend of two, but it's not necessary to party) for my first 15 levels or so.

3. When I played wow, I did solo for a lot of quests, but it was actually faster to party with 2 or 3 players when you do quests. And also, I would join different parties when I go to instances, even mid level instances.

I like playing in parties, but I hate the fact that you HAVE to party in order to level up.


1. I am a rank 15 conjurer. My physical level is 17.
2. When I first played FFXI in 2004, grouping started at lvl 11 for me because solo became too sluggish and mobs were too difficult. I grouped in Valkurm Dunes. A lot has changed since then, they made solo easier in FFXI but I stopped playing in 2006.
3. Guildleves can be soloed, but allows for grouping too by simply selecting a higher difficulty (ie- 1 star, 2 star, etc).
#32 Aug 17 2010 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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How do these people get into Beta?


This answer is brought to you by the word "/random"
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#33 Aug 17 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I would adopt a "start panicking" attitude toward the other problems, like the reportedly clunky UI.


The UI is being addressed. *note I said -being- so its not actually done yet*

A new function has been added which enables players to specify targets such as "NPC only" or "PC only."

The delay experienced when opening and closing windows will be reduced → Exiting query windows with the cancel button will be made possible → Adjustments to chat controls.
→ Using shortcut keys to reply will be made possible → Sending tells to a targeted player will be simplified → The directional keys to control the camera will be changed in order to improve gameplay using the keyboard..
→ Closing the main menu with the mouse will be made possible.

Edited, Aug 17th 2010 8:55pm by Imaboomer
#34 Aug 17 2010 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, I will go ahead and apologize for my tone in my last few posts. But ya'll have to stop treating SE as though they're just going to take the 3rd beta, allow everyone to use any job they want and play in all zones and release it like that. The teams are taking the suggestions and complaints from testers and fixing things. Just because they don't give out every fix with every beta phase doesn't mean they've been idle.
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#35 Aug 17 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
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HallieXIV wrote:
Anyone who bails on a game a result of playing the beta and not having everything perfect should not have been in beta in the first place. You have fundementally failed to comprehend the purpose of beta testing.

As for the post above that SE are obviously happy with exp balance as it has unchanged since alpha - well how do you know the same balance is in the full version of the game.

It is possible that the reason beta is so easy (and beneficial to solo) is that SE want players to solo to test certain elements of the game so they have created a situation where solo'ing is encouraged. MAybe they are so confident that groups work well that they dont want people to group.

IT IS A BETA TEST - you are being shown certain things to encourage you to test certain things. DO NOT EXPECT RETAIL RELEASE TO BE THE SAME.

How do these people get into Beta?


Maybe they already filled the mouth breathing "IT'S JUST A BETA" quota and needed people who actually want to help improve the game by giving feedback. People like you who will gladly eat a cow **** if that's what S-E decides to serve you aren't even needed for a beta test, because you have nothing useful to say. What kind of feedback can you possible give? "Mmm, this cow **** sure is delicious, but whatever you do with it will be equally yummy!"

The game goes live in roughly a month. Chances are it was feature locked at the start of P3. The game that's in beta is 90% the same as the game that's going to go live. All any one can ask for at this point is that they fix the technical issues and start to work on the design issues now, so some of them can be addressed in the first few live updates.


#36 Aug 17 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Default
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Just a thought:

Could you purposefully gimp yourself to do less damage, thereby hitting more and reaping more of a xp benefit from each mob? Does damage play a factor at all in how much experience you get?

Just thinking... In a controlled situation with a well coordinated party, that could render some pretty interesting results.
#37 Aug 17 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Nicely put KarlHungis the Prohpet.
#38 Aug 17 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis the Prohpet wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
Anyone who bails on a game a result of playing the beta and not having everything perfect should not have been in beta in the first place. You have fundementally failed to comprehend the purpose of beta testing.

As for the post above that SE are obviously happy with exp balance as it has unchanged since alpha - well how do you know the same balance is in the full version of the game.

It is possible that the reason beta is so easy (and beneficial to solo) is that SE want players to solo to test certain elements of the game so they have created a situation where solo'ing is encouraged. MAybe they are so confident that groups work well that they dont want people to group.

IT IS A BETA TEST - you are being shown certain things to encourage you to test certain things. DO NOT EXPECT RETAIL RELEASE TO BE THE SAME.

How do these people get into Beta?


Maybe they already filled the mouth breathing "IT'S JUST A BETA" quota and needed people who actually want to help improve the game by giving feedback. People like you who will gladly eat a cow **** if that's what S-E decides to serve you aren't even needed for a beta test, because you have nothing useful to say. What kind of feedback can you possible give? "Mmm, this cow **** sure is delicious, but whatever you do with it will be equally yummy!"

The game goes live in roughly a month. Chances are it was feature locked at the start of P3. The game that's in beta is 90% the same as the game that's going to go live. All any one can ask for at this point is that they fix the technical issues and start to work on the design issues now, so some of them can be addressed in the first few live updates.




How do you know anything at all about the go-live version.

The UI is apparently causing people problems but in beta they generally server-side this functionality so that they can track key strokes in battles etc to measure timing. In retail release, UI's are typically client side so this issue is resolved.

Very few features will be locked indefinitely and I seriously doubt the game beta testers are playing is the same as the version of the game that will go live. It isnt as if you are testing the real product and it builds towards launch. You are testing the beta, a beta designed to be separate from final release. It is not necessarily the case that the final release will be 90% the same as beta.

The UI is just one example of where beta's are often fundementally different to retail release. WHo knows what else is different.

This is the problem with non-professional beta testers - they assume they are playing the game as it will be released. I dont blame beta testers for this, I blame the games industry who have often released free to play demos and called them betas.
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#39 Aug 17 2010 at 7:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hey guys, here's a thought: it's the first 10 or 20 levels! How many of you partied from level 1-15 in FFXI? Not even in the start of the game when it was significantly less solo friendly (no FoV) did it make sense to party until at least level 12.

Relax.
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#40 Aug 17 2010 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
This is the problem with non-professional beta testers - they assume they are playing the game as it will be released. I dont blame beta testers for this, I blame the games industry who have often released free to play demos and called them betas.

No one is assuming this. You are pretending that we are assuming this, because it allows you to disregard the reality that if a major feature of the game has gone unchanged since alpha, they probably don't intend to change it. Once again: this isn't necessarily the game that will go live, but that doesn't mean we can't make inferences about how the game will be live. What you're doing is the logical equivalent of me going "just because the Conjurer class has been in the game since alpha doesn't mean there will actually be Conjurers at release! lrn2beta!"
#41 Aug 17 2010 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis the Prohpet wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
Anyone who bails on a game a result of playing the beta and not having everything perfect should not have been in beta in the first place. You have fundementally failed to comprehend the purpose of beta testing.

As for the post above that SE are obviously happy with exp balance as it has unchanged since alpha - well how do you know the same balance is in the full version of the game.

It is possible that the reason beta is so easy (and beneficial to solo) is that SE want players to solo to test certain elements of the game so they have created a situation where solo'ing is encouraged. MAybe they are so confident that groups work well that they dont want people to group.

IT IS A BETA TEST - you are being shown certain things to encourage you to test certain things. DO NOT EXPECT RETAIL RELEASE TO BE THE SAME.

How do these people get into Beta?


People like you who will gladly eat a cow **** if that's what S-E decides to serve you aren't even needed for a beta test, because you have nothing useful to say. What kind of feedback can you possible give? "Mmm, this cow **** sure is delicious, but whatever you do with it will be equally yummy!"




Hmm alright mate, I'm out of the argument. You are absolutely right. I dont need to come and start throwing personal insults about and since I am not a keyboard warrior or a troll will not respond aggressively to personal insults from another poster. Just no need for it.

I hope that you get all the enjoyment from the game that you hope to - all the best to you.
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#42 Aug 17 2010 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Let's just wait until Sept. 22 so then we can make a more accurate response/decision on how solo vs. party play will play out. No one can make a 100% accurate answer right now since we still have about 35 days left until release, and who knows maybe SE already has their plans layed out for fixing the problems some people talked about or maybe still they already have the solution, but want a few more days of feedback before implementing the changes/fixes. No one knows the exact truth so I'll be taking the wait and see attitude too.
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#43 Aug 17 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Majivo wrote:
Quote:
This is the problem with non-professional beta testers - they assume they are playing the game as it will be released. I dont blame beta testers for this, I blame the games industry who have often released free to play demos and called them betas.

No one is assuming this. You are pretending that we are assuming this, because it allows you to disregard the reality that if a major feature of the game has gone unchanged since alpha, they probably don't intend to change it. Once again: this isn't necessarily the game that will go live, but that doesn't mean we can't make inferences about how the game will be live. What you're doing is the logical equivalent of me going "just because the Conjurer class has been in the game since alpha doesn't mean there will actually be Conjurers at release! lrn2beta!"


I'm sorry, but I don't understand this post. "No one's assuming that the beta will be exactly the same as the release. You assume that we assume. We are just making inferences on details of a future release based upon its unfinished state."

If I made inferences of results based on unfinished states at work then I would have missed a very interesting distribution of tilts!

I just want people to stop saying that the game's going to suck based upon the beta.
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#44 Aug 17 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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HallieXIV wrote:


How do you know anything at all about the go-live version.



I've been in half a dozen betas for MMOs, and in every single one, there are people who say "LOL IT'S JUST BETA A LOT WILL CHANGE IN LIVE!" even when it's weeks away. Here's a clue based on years of experience: There are no super secret builds over at Square Enix headquarters. There is not going to be a miracle patch. The closer we get to release, the more certain we can be that what we see now is what is going to go live. I'm not talking about numbers tweaks or technical issues, because those can indeed be fixed without changing the fundamental structure of the game.

Quote:

The UI is apparently causing people problems but in beta they generally server-side this functionality so that they can track key strokes in battles etc to measure timing. In retail release, UI's are typically client side so this issue is resolved.


There are multiple issues with the UI. The client-server lag can be fixed, and it's one of those issues where the devs don't need to be convinced to fix it, they just need the programmers to fix it. That doesn't mean, by the way, that these issues will actually get fixed, it just means that whether or not and when they get fixed is impossible to predict.

On the other hand, there are a lot of issues that are design decisions, like the lack of any way to conveniently target party members, the fact that the UI for selling things is 7-8 steps when 3 steps (Sell -> Set Quantity -> Okay) would clearly suffice, the fact that crafting is still using the arcane method of individually selecting each ingredient from your inventory, the fact that there's no ability to rebind keys, etc. All of these are DESIGN decisions. No amount of bug fixing will improve these elements because they're already working as designed.

Bad design is a lot easier to look at and realize that it will remain in the live version, because typically, games don't get radical re designs in a short period of time, especially when you really put an emphasis on making the new design of high quality. In other words, they could probably slap together a key rebinding interface and implement it in a month, but to make it not painful to use would take a lot longer, assuming S-E even understands PC users well enough to design a non painful interface (some thing they haven't shown so far). When it comes out that they've already decided that a lot of these things aren't desireable or necessary, then we can pretty much rule out the idea of implementation before launch.


Quote:
Very few features will be locked indefinitely and I seriously doubt the game beta testers are playing is the same as the version of the game that will go live. It isnt as if you are testing the real product and it builds towards launch. You are testing the beta, a beta designed to be separate from final release. It is not necessarily the case that the final release will be 90% the same as beta.


Ask yourself for a moment what the purpose of a beta test is. There's no answer you can come up with that involves testing a version of the product that's radically different from what's being worked on internally. I'm sure that the version that S-E has internally is further along than what beta testers have, but to assume that it's some sort of miracle version is foolish when nothing in the history of MMO development, let alone the history of S-E's development suggests that such a thing is even remotely likely.

Quote:

The UI is just one example of where beta's are often fundementally different to retail release. WHo knows what else is different.

This is the problem with non-professional beta testers - they assume they are playing the game as it will be released. I dont blame beta testers for this, I blame the games industry who have often released free to play demos and called them betas.


First of all, there's no such thing as a "professional beta tester." There are professional testers but they do NOT fulfill the same role. The purpose of a beta tester is to test a product as if it is a finished or nearly finished product, and give feedback as if they were already a paying customer. This is done so that developers can avoid the headaches and backlash of releasing a product with obvious flaws. All of this stuff has already been tested internally, and guess what, it either wasn't caught or wasn't deemed important enough to correct. Beta testers who are critical are doing exactly what they ought to do, assuming they're being sincere and offering valid arguments or alternatives. Saying "it's all good! go right ahead!" is basically the same thing as not beta testing at all.
#45 Aug 17 2010 at 7:37 PM Rating: Good
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KarlHungis the Prohpet wrote:

The game goes live in roughly a month. Chances are it was feature locked at the start of P3. The game that's in beta is 90% the same as the game that's going to go live. All any one can ask for at this point is that they fix the technical issues and start to work on the design issues now, so some of them can be addressed in the first few live updates.


Game development 101:

This isn't always true. Also using this logic only Limsa Lominsa will launch at retail cuz you know everything was "locked at the start of P3." I don't think you were any more right than the person you quoted.
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#46 Aug 17 2010 at 7:37 PM Rating: Default
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No one is saying that it is going to suck. How is everyone missing this distinction? It is not a fallacy to point out long-term trends in SE's development process. It's like claiming that I can't watch a man building a house and determine that it'll be unsound when he finishes. Sure, I might not be able to say "well, the house will fall apart because he's placed the bathroom tiles in the wrong spot" (aka, things that may change between beta and launch), but I can certainly say "this is going to be a **** poor house because every beam is an eighth of an inch thick" (aka, long term trends that point to the foundations of the game). Everyone keeps acting like you can't make any claims about the final game based on the beta, which is completely false/
#47 Aug 17 2010 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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In beta test SE may want to test the way that solo play works.

In order to encourage solo play so that the engine gets a real work out, they make experience rewards for solo play exceed the rewards for group play.

As a result, everyone plays solo, SE get to test this element of the game.

It doesnt mean that the final balance will be the same as beta - it doesnt mean that it wont either. But people who are willing to say that as a result of balance issues of solo play versus group play they are not going to buy retail release may have made a decision based on something that changes in the real version of the game.

I apologise if I am not being very clear but this is my point. Some of these things may change for release as they launch the game the way they want it to be played (which might favour group play and might not).

Saying that this is phase 3 beta therefore SE have finished with most of the game and it is 90% complete could be a complete fallacy.

Do I know this for sure, No. Does anyone here know for sure, No.

Does anyone therefore deserve being told that they eat any **** served up by SE, No!
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#48 Aug 17 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
KarlHungis the Prohpet wrote:

The game goes live in roughly a month. Chances are it was feature locked at the start of P3. The game that's in beta is 90% the same as the game that's going to go live. All any one can ask for at this point is that they fix the technical issues and start to work on the design issues now, so some of them can be addressed in the first few live updates.


Game development 101:

This isn't always true. Also using this logic only Limsa Lominsa will launch at retail cuz you know everything was "locked at the start of P3." I don't think you were any more right than the person you quoted.


Apples and Oranges. You're talking about content that hasn't been seen vs content that has been seen. I would feel very comfortable saying that whatever Gridania or Ul'dah looks like when they go into the beta is 90% similar to how they'll be at launch, but I can't rightly say what they're be like at all until they've been made accessible to testers.

There's really no logical reason to carry on as if there's a completely different UI or set of game features that will replace the currently existing features. If such a version of the game already existed it would be prudent to test it in beta rather than simply hold it until release.

Having belief in things that cannot actually be perceived is called "Faith" and it's a wonderful trait for religious zealots but not a very useful trait for consumers.
#49 Aug 17 2010 at 7:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Redyoshi wrote:
I actually like that this game is moving away from forced party play. If I wanted a FFXI-2 I wouldn't have quit the first one.


Exactly don't understand these complaints at all. If they love FF XI so much why not go back to it. The game really has changed from what it once was 6 years ago. I wanna say it's not even the same game anymore.
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#50 Aug 17 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
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Majivo wrote:
No one is saying that it is going to suck. How is everyone missing this distinction? It is not a fallacy to point out long-term trends in SE's development process. It's like claiming that I can't watch a man building a house and determine that it'll be unsound when he finishes. Sure, I might not be able to say "well, the house will fall apart because he's placed the bathroom tiles in the wrong spot" (aka, things that may change between beta and launch), but I can certainly say "this is going to be a **** poor house because every beam is an eighth of an inch thick" (aka, long term trends that point to the foundations of the game). Everyone keeps acting like you can't make any claims about the final game based on the beta, which is completely false/


Quote:
because if we dont do anything about it, its going to end up the way of World of Warcraft


Quote:
I will simply say this. Those who liked FFXI immensely because of the community and the exp parties will be disappointed.


Quote:
Wife: "Honey, our baby is still in the womb, it's not ready yet."
Husband: "But it's only a month away from the due date and it has no legs!"
Wife: "It's ok, God will give him legs in a month."


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Right now, I dont look forward to it.


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I want the game to succeed but right now, honestly it does not look fun to me.


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Instead it's an unhappy medium of not allowing you freedom and not really explaining any thing either. It feels quite pointless and it makes a poor first impression.


Quote:
want to see FFXIV succeed but right now it's leaning towards becoming FFXI-2 more so than it's leaning towards a new fantasy MMORPG called FFXIV. And I'm not sure how people can be OK with that.


Quote:
Its little things what makes a Game succed and its little things that makes a Game fail.
With no proper UI/Control/Interface controls the Game WILL fail in the long run. It will become a 2nd FFXI, might start good with like 2M players but prolly losing a lot fast.


And now I've gotten bored of reading through older posts, but each of these sounds like "It'll suck" to me.
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#51 Aug 17 2010 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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On the other hand, there are a lot of issues that are design decisions, like the lack of any way to conveniently target party members, the fact that the UI for selling things is 7-8 steps when 3 steps (Sell -> Set Quantity -> Okay) would clearly suffice, the fact that crafting is still using the arcane method of individually selecting each ingredient from your inventory, the fact that there's no ability to rebind keys, etc. All of these are DESIGN decisions. No amount of bug fixing will improve these elements because they're already working as designed.


So you KNOW that they're not implementing a way to easily target party members? You KNOW that you're always going to have to go through 7-8 steps to sell? You KNOW there will not be a way to rebind keys?

From what I understand, from one of the earlier phases to the one right after it, the combat system went through a MAJOR overhaul. It seems like most of the things you "KNOW" are things that you can't possibly know for sure.

As the game stands then yes, these are issues, but it is a BETA. Let the final game release, then start whining and I'll be here complaining with you.
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