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new information from a interview talks about AH, 48 hour cooFollow

#102 Aug 19 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wonder if core knew what posting this interview would do to the community. As it is now, every ffxiv fan site is up in arms, and the beta forums are in rebellion and movements are forming. One interview has caused all this.

I am a bit amazed really.
#103 Aug 19 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I like how everybody is just assuming the worst.

I really hope they don't cave in on the AH issue, I want them to create something new, or at least try to create something new and better, "good enough" is NOT.

The Solo vs Group issue, has got me worried though. SE isn't known for incremental changes, I think they may throw the guillotine to far in the other direction.

I myself have yet to play, though a buddy of mine was trying to party in Skull "something or other", he said they were getting stomped with 5 people. Then they experimented with other tactics, then they were soaring.

In the end, I really hope the issue of solo vs group is nothing like it was in FFXI, FAR to party oriented. I don't mind it being party focused, as long as it's solo friendly.
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#104 Aug 19 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
In the end, I really hope the issue of solo vs group is nothing like it was in FFXI, FAR to party oriented. I don't mind it being party focused, as long as it's solo friendly.


I actually tried to ask about this in another thread:

Quote:
Quote:
Its called surplus exp if you fight the same thing long enough you wont get exp from it so you have to move to something else. Awsome system lol.


Alright, I have some questions regarding this:

I'm guessing this means that typical party "Grinding" has, in fact, been stopped. [obviously if your mobs quit giving XP]

Which leaves the guildleave system. Let's I have two days straight off to play, but I finished my guildleaves in a few hours. Nobody wants to invite me to their guildleave party, because I have no guildleaves outstanding to be of benefit to the party. [or for the sake of an easier argument, let's just say it's a slow night] I feel like leveling, but not crafting. I enjoy [random job] and would like to get it higher over the next 48 hours.

What are my options?


And the response?

Quote:
I guess you have to stop fighting those rabid fireflys and switch to vicious lady bugs.


Well, that and a blind rate-down /shrug.

From this response, I'm guessing you don't have to worry about it being too party oriented. You may have to worry about it being *NO* party oriented ;)
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#105 Aug 19 2010 at 9:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I honestly don't know why any of you are surprised they are not listening to anyone in the beta. It took them 6 years to fix FF XI. If FF XI was the way it is now 8 years ago it would have been way more successful. You can actually solo in XI now which was something that was not a reality 8 years ago. You can litterly go from 1-80 in a week with very little effort now with Abyssea.
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#106 Aug 19 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Default
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Regarding Final Fantasy XIV and the market battle system is something we would like to consider the equilevent to the auction house we had in Final Fantasy XI. Only that you'll also be able to fix your equipment and things like that. It is something we really want people to enjoy. Also after the release of the game we will see how it goes and for example find out what kind of search options players will want and need and improve the situation. We don't really want to introduce the auctionhouse from the beginning because that is going to determine the economy system. So we want to improve it slowly and adjust it accordingly.


Look at me! I'm Se and want to do things different! Even if it means making a very simple to use system terribly convoluted and time consuming!

SE: Years and years of just not getting it.
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#107 Aug 19 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Look at me! I'm Se and want to do things different! Even if it means making a very simple to use system terribly convoluted and time consuming!

SE: Years and years of just not getting it.


Well, I'm glad to tell you the gaming industry (especially MMO industry) is doing exactly what you want them to do; not take any risks ever and just recycle the same ideas over and over again!

If that's SE "not getting it", then I hope they never "get it".



I hope I'm not getting trolled.
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#108 Aug 20 2010 at 12:54 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

Look at me! I'm Se and want to do things different! Even if it means making a very simple to use system terribly convoluted and time consuming!

SE: Years and years of just not getting it.


You've got a good 10 mmo's to go choose from

Leave ours alone please.
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#109 Aug 20 2010 at 2:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I will admit I am not a fan of the Market Ward system, especially the fact that you can't search for items. If you're looking for something specific, you have to run from Retainer to Retainer and check each one individually. Not to menion that due to lag, sometimes Retainers don't even load unless you're standing right next to them.

And since retainers can just be placed anywhere, it's easy to lose track of which one's you've already check. I went in looking for a new weapon only to leave empty handed 45 minutes later. What a waste of time.
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#110 Aug 20 2010 at 3:19 AM Rating: Decent
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pixelpop wrote:
its like playing an MMO on computer USING A GAMEPAD, why would you do that?


Same reason people play FFXI on PC with a gamepad.

Edited, Aug 20th 2010 6:21am by Lobivopis
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Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#111 Aug 20 2010 at 3:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Look at me! I'm Se and want to do things different! Even if it means making a very simple to use system terribly convoluted and time consuming!

SE: Years and years of just not getting it.


Well, I'm glad to tell you the gaming industry (especially MMO industry) is doing exactly what you want them to do; not take any risks ever and just recycle the same ideas over and over again!

If that's SE "not getting it", then I hope they never "get it".



I hope I'm not getting trolled.


I have to agree on this one, I guess the only time the mmo industry will change again is after Blizzard makes their new mmo and everyone starts copying that game instead of WoW. Meanwhile the whole crowd goes "OMG this game is so awesome why hasn't anyone every done anything like this before!?!?!" With the answer being: because noone ever dared take a risk because people like you shot the few who did down before you even tried it.

Funny thing is SE even stated if they can't get their system to work in a good way they will probably add a AH so I really don't see the issue. Although I do hope they manage a search function in there before release...

About the mouse issue I dunno really, SE had a hardware mouse for XI and that one was still unusable, not sure adding it to XIV would solve the problem, but then I haven't tried XIV yet so I can't say if the lagg is the only problem with the mouse or not.

In the end, yes I am a bit worried, but I will wait and try it out for myself after release because overall there seems to be a lot of good stuff in there as well. I'm happy to see SE try out new and different systems, even if it means a few speedbumps along the way because I want the industry to evolve and move forward.
#112 Aug 20 2010 at 3:58 AM Rating: Decent
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seneleron wrote:
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aetherite is everywhere


In the beta, maybe that's correct. You have no idea if they plan to adjust it downward, or if it's just as plentiful in higher level areas. It COULD be that way in the beta just to speed testing.

Quote:
But why in this game? Would it really hurt the game to give users of all control methods the best? There's no PvP... maybe it would give you an edge in NM claiming? -shrugs-


I didn't say it was rational, I just cannot fathom why SE would not implement mouse performance inside FFXIV the way it is OUTSIDE FFXIV [IE, in windows and every other program in recent history that I'm aware of]

The ONLY thing I can think of is that the advanced precision would allow quicker targeting of mobs vs a controller. I can think of no other reasonable explanation of WHY they wouldn't support such basic functionality


Because playing with a controller is "the vision". SE didn't budge on this in 8 years on FFXI and they aren't going to budge on this with FFXIV. Get used to it or don't play.

Square Enix is like a douchbag artist when it comes to things like this, and nothing, not even plummeting subscription numbers will make them change their minds (again, look at FFXI for the past 8 years) They are quite willing to bite the bullet and walk right over a cliff rather than change something in their game that they believe in.



Edited, Aug 20th 2010 7:12am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#113 Aug 20 2010 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Because playing with a controller is "the vision". SE didn't budge on this in 8 years on FFXI and they aren't going to budge on this with FFXIV. Get used to it or don't play.


Well someone needs to introduce these Bi***es to bifocals!

Honestly, I think it would be cool if they maybe look into using MOVE controls on the ps3. I don't have an idea how it would work, but it could be interesting.
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#114 Aug 20 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, I'm glad to tell you the gaming industry (especially MMO industry) is doing exactly what you want them to do; not take any risks ever and just recycle the same ideas over and over again!


I'd be fine if SE created an equal or better system to the AH. The current system is awful. The ONLY reason is to "be different". If someone tried to sell you a car with 3 wheels because it was different than the "standard" would it be better? Hardly.

Risks are fine, doubly so in beta. However, to make a system like this and steadfastly deny that an AH system is better is SE being SE. Hey, if you don't mind spending 45 minutes to find the lowest price on crystals when it could take 20 seconds, more power to you. I want to spend less time bookkeeping and more time playing.
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Zaela Rdm -- 35, Alchemy 45 -- Forced into retirement because I didn't have the right kind of credit card. Hope it was worth 18 bucks a month, SE.

#115 Aug 20 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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We don't even know what this battle market system supposedly is.
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#116 Aug 20 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Okay, first I need to prepend the disclaimer that I am one of those horrid people who voice opinions purely on what they have read on these forums; I am not in the beta, in fact, I've stopped applying since at this point I'd rather just get the game when it comes out.

That being said, I am also aware that most of the negativity about the Retainer system as is are not the type of people who enjoy micro-economic management on the player side, but I will give this a shot anyway.

I am actually of the opinion that, on paper, the retainer system as is has a lot of potential. It just does not, and cannot, work in a beta. As I see it, this system gives DoH and DoL in particular a huge arena to do battle, much like the DoW and DoMs do battle in the fields outside. Over the course of the first few months, certain crafters and gatherers will establish themselves as leaders in their field, and give rise to the "Buy from the guy on the third corner from the left, he always has good deals" phenomenon. Savvy buyers will look beyond the big name Retainers and search out the "mom and pop" retainers, more specialized, but often at a cheaper price. You can name your retainer, leading to brand naming.

Another thing that could come out of it is middlemen. In the case you don't want to deal with getting your retainer noticed in the crush, find one of the big name sellers and sell him your stuff, I'm sure he'll be willing to mark it up a bit and put in on his retainer. Even better would be when several people get together and cooperate, forming a conglomerate, all selling out of one Retainer, increasing each's profit margin.

What Square Enix needs to add to make it work this way isn't a search function, it's an advertisement function. People need to be able to put themselves out there in the public preview. Adding a search function would make it easy, but it would completely destroy what I see is potentially a very rich and complex market. That being said, I would be happy with a search function if that is what Square Enix decides to do, but it would no longer be any more visionary than an AH, just one where you actually walk around instead of looking at a vendor window.

I would like to reiterate that I am very well aware that complex economy systems are not something everyone enjoys, some people just like crafting, some just like combat. I'm just saying that this system by the sounds of it isn't all bad, it just hasn't had a chance to grow yet. I haven't even talked about people who could make gil just by playing the trading game, but I image that one is pretty self evident, and boring to most people besides.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to know if it would work out, since by virtue of it's very deesign, it would take months of perpetual servers (i.e. no character wipes) for the market to settle correctly. Not to mention that in the beta, players don't have the same levels of self interest to actually advertise.

Edited, Aug 20th 2010 8:33pm by Hulan
#117 Aug 20 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hulan wrote:
Okay, first I need to perpend the disclaimer that I am one of those horrid people who voice opinions purely on what they have read on these forums; I am not in the beta, in fact, I've stopped applying since at this point I'd rather just get the game when it comes out.

That being said, I am also aware that most of the negativity about the Retainer system as is are not the type of people who enjoy micro-economic management on the player side, but I will give this a shot anyway.

I am actually of the opinion that, on paper, the retainer system as is has a lot of potential. It just does not, and cannot, work in a beta. As I see it, this system gives DoH and DoL in particular a huge arena to do battle, much like the DoW and DoMs do battle in the fields outside. Over the course of the first few months, certain crafters and gatherers will establish themselves as leaders in their field, and give rise to the "Buy from the guy on the third corner from the left, he always has good deals" phenomenon. Savvy buyers will look beyond the big name Retainers and search out the "mom and pop" retainers, more specialized, but often at a cheaper price. You can name your retainer, leading to brand naming.

Another thing that could come out of it is middlemen. In the case you don't want to deal with getting your retainer noticed in the crush, find one of the big name sellers and sell him your stuff, I'm sure he'll be willing to mark it up a bit and put in on his retainer. Even better would be when several people get together and cooperate, forming a conglomerate, all selling out of one Retainer, increasing each's profit margin.

What Square Enix needs to add to make it work this way isn't a search function, it's an advertisement function. People need to be able to put themselves out there in the public preview. Adding a search function would make it easy, but it would completely destroy what I see is potentially a very rich and complex market. That being said, I would be happy with a search function if that is what Square Enix decides to do, but it would no longer be any more visionary than an AH, just one where you actually walk around instead of looking at a vendor window.

I would like to reiterate that I am very well aware that complex economy systems are not something everyone enjoys, some people just like crafting, some just like combat. I'm just saying that this system by the sounds of it isn't all bad, it just hasn't had a chance to grow yet. I haven't even talked about people who could make gil just by playing the trading game, but I image that one is pretty self evident, and boring to most people besides.

Unfortunately, it's impossible to know if it would work out, since by virtue of it's very deesign, it would take months of perpetual servers (i.e. no character wipes) for the market to settle correctly. Not to mention that in the beta, players don't have the same levels of self interest to actually advertise.


I'll help shed some light on this.

The retainer system is actually pretty interesting, as you can set up retainers (and personal bazaars) to both sell stuff AND buy stuff, this allows you to play kind of a trading game where you buy one thing, do a bunch of trades through bazaars, and come out with what you need if you can play the game well.

What's missing right now is a robust searching tool, the sheer number of retainers sitting in any given marketplace is absolutely appalling and completely unworkable with no way to search them easily (there's also a ton of lag in there but they've already acknowledged that).

Unfortunately I don't think advertisements on bazaars are necessarily the way to go in light of the following: http://vnmedia.ign.com/l2vault.ign.com/images/FaultyScreenie/10-28-2008-faulty-screenie.jpg

That's from Lineage 2.. Aion had a very similar problem for a while.

I do agree that certain individuals will become known for certain products at certain prices and that will take shape organically on its own once the retail game hits.
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#118 Aug 20 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Alright, there are some stuff in the interview that I find weird, but okay, it's a new game and we haven't really gotten into trying it's true ready form yet, so I wont be judging those at this point. No AH, that's fine if it's replaced by system that actually works. Leves being the sole endgame at the start of the release, fine with that as well, I've got no rush into (FFXI terms coming up) HNM/Instance/whatevermaxlvl content during the first few weeks of the game, so that's ok. And many of the stuff there is something that I wont give a deeper opinion before I've tried the "real" game.

But there's one thing that I just can't understand, AT ALL. That **** fatigue/surplus system. And for clearance:
"F: Tell why you decided to implement Fatigue and Latency (note: I really don't know how to translate that, but it's something in-game to keep you from playing too long at a time on one class).

DK: We'd like you to think of it as a reward to those players who don't have much time to commit to the game. Those hardcore players out there might think it's a little unfair, but the main concept behind it is that you don't need to put in massive amounts of time to enjoy the game.

So what the F? It's ok that you don't need to put in massive amounts of time to enjoy that game, but now you aren't even allowed to do so, you're getting punished for playing more than 2 hours a day, what is the point of that? Doesn't SE realize that even though they're trying to get totally new players and players from other MMOs to FFXIV, the biggest interest towards the game still comes from old FFXI hardcore players.

I don't even understand WHY should the casual players keep up with the so called hardcore players when it comes to leveling? Everyone have their own styles and own level of commitment for the game and you really shouldn't try to push the other end of the playerbase towards the other by force. The more casual players would catch up with the more hardcore players at some point anyway (repeating; when it comes to leveling), like they did in FFXI. For example years after the release of FFXI you could imagine a casual player having 1-3 of 75lvl jobs where the true hardcore player could've had like 5-8 jobs, but so what? It never prevented the casual player joining an LS and doing endgame content with other players, most of the endgame LSes were a mix of both kind of players.

The other thing considering this "we'll gimp your exp if you play too much" is the CE version, I think most of the players who preordered it got it mostly for the 8 day head start, but now it probably wont even make a big difference at all because you'll end up waiting for the surplus effect to wear of in order to keep on with leveling after a day or two anyway, so much for a great 8 days of leveling before the others!

Also, since MMOs are much about freedom to play the game how you yourself want, isn't this sort of limiting the hardcore players from playing the game how they want by quite a large amount if you think of it? In my opinion it is. By this I mean is that the choice should be up to the player whether to grind it out or log in every once in awhile and progress and SE is currently limiting that, badly.

I didn't mean to make this as a rant, but rather a big cloud of questions in my head towards this system, because for me, at least for now, it seems very weird all in all. I'm not sure if I personally would be considered as a hardcore player when the game is released, but I'd sure as **** like to play (and level in it) for more than 2-3 hours a day. If they start to limit your leveling the game will end up being just a big chatroom for the players that have nothing to do but wait, like FFXI became for many in their last weeks before quitting the game.

In conclusion, I fear that the game might end up being a disaster if they decide to keep a system where the player isn't allowed to play and level as much as they personally want, because not many want to play a MMO where you aren't allowed to actually play. I know that it might change and they might have lots of things to do while not leveling, but with the current info and interviews from the developers everything seems a bit, hm..



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#119 Aug 20 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Totally agree with DeMaWa. This is the stupidest sh*t I've ever heard from SE, and they are masters of it. What if I'm all about fishing for example, and I don't really want to do anything else? Shouldn't my $15.00 a month allow me to play what I want, when I want, and how I want? If the goal here is to limit me so that I don't run out of things to do before an expansion, then don't bother. I'd rather take that chance. If the goal is to truly set more even ground between casual vs hardcore, there are much better ways to achieve this without limiting me. If the goal is for SE to play Nanny and police my time because they worry about people neglecting RL, then go F*** yourself SE. If there is one thing in this god forsaken politically correct world that I can not stand, It is some idiot that thinks they know what is best for me.

In the words of Ben Weasel:

And I can't believe you're telling me
What's good for me, how do you know what's good
And i can't believe you're telling me what to believe
Get away from me
My right
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#120 Aug 20 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you very much Callinon, that was very informative, and I have revised some of my thoughts on the Retainer system. I am still leery, though, of whether a search function would allow the system to flourish as I think Square Enix envisioned it. While it adds simplicity, it also removes the benefits of being the big name that everyone knows. Every time someone undercuts you, everyone knows it immediately. The lack of a search function also promotes networking; The more people you know, the easier it will be to find that item you want.

As to that advertisement scheme in Lineage II, ouch. But I don't see why we should allow the failure of creativity in one or two games stop Square Enix from hitting the nail on the head if they really tried. What comes to mind immediately is a searchable, web-search-engine style, bulletin board. When setting up an advertisement, you can pay the board in a blind auction style for the privilage to have your add on top of any given category. It then becomes a cost/benefit analysis for how much you are willing to play to be the first Armor and Amour Wears on the list. You then select all of the goods that apply to your store (filtered by the game for categories you actually have, to avoid people flooding the board). After that, it's just a matter of placing the board up at the entrance of the Ward, buyers will check it as they pass by, looking at what shops have what, then decide where they want to go.

Doing it that way also puts some of the work on the buyers side. It is up to the buyer if they want to gamble on that first add being still in stock, or starting lower on the list, where there's more likely to be available stocks. Not to mention that people can still list their prices. It's better than allowing buyers to search all of the things on sale, because it gives intrepid entrepreneurs the chance to really clean up by finding items no one else found because they weren't advertised high on the list.
#121 Aug 20 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hulan wrote:
Thank you very much Callinon, that was very informative, and I have revised some of my thoughts on the Retainer system. I am still leery, though, of whether a search function would allow the system to flourish as I think Square Enix envisioned it. While it adds simplicity, it also removes the benefits of being the big name that everyone knows. Every time someone undercuts you, everyone knows it immediately. The lack of a search function also promotes networking; The more people you know, the easier it will be to find that item you want.

As to that advertisement scheme in Lineage II, ouch. But I don't see why we should allow the failure of creativity in one or two games stop Square Enix from hitting the nail on the head if they really tried. What comes to mind immediately is a searchable, web-search-engine style, bulletin board. When setting up an advertisement, you can pay the board in a blind auction style for the privilage to have your add on top of any given category. It then becomes a cost/benefit analysis for how much you are willing to play to be the first Armor and Amour Wears on the list. You then select all of the goods that apply to your store (filtered by the game for categories you actually have, to avoid people flooding the board). After that, it's just a matter of placing the board up at the entrance of the Ward, buyers will check it as they pass by, looking at what shops have what, then decide where they want to go.

Doing it that way also puts some of the work on the buyers side. It is up to the buyer if they want to gamble on that first add being still in stock, or starting lower on the list, where there's more likely to be available stocks. Not to mention that people can still list their prices. It's better than allowing buyers to search all of the things on sale, because it gives intrepid entrepreneurs the chance to really clean up by finding items no one else found because they weren't advertised high on the list.


Interesting idea, but I think that system may be getting over-complicated for something that should be a simple matter. I feel like the major advantage in the retainer system is not the ability to sell through a bazaar, but the ability to buy through one, it's actually the first time I've seen that particular feature and I think it's a really good idea.

Your ad-list concept seems like your basic run of the mill auction house would serve that function as well or better and be easier for the average person to understand. I think I understand what their vision is, and it's possible it may even work at retail when things actually matter and are broken up by region. I still vastly prefer an auction house for buying things globally in an MMO, I'd see the retainers serving more of a specialty role, selling specific items provided by a particular player, or high-ticket items that are expensive or cumbersome to list on an auction house.
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#122 Aug 20 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Decent
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DeMaWa wrote:

"F: Tell why you decided to implement Fatigue and Latency (note: I really don't know how to translate that, but it's something in-game to keep you from playing too long at a time on one class).

DK: We'd like you to think of it as a reward to those players who don't have much time to commit to the game. Those hardcore players out there might think it's a little unfair, but the main concept behind it is that you don't need to put in massive amounts of time to enjoy the game.


UO and WoW both tried this and they both removed it. What it really boils down to is this:

Quote:
"let's limit playtime so casual players don't fall behind and quit in frustration"


The problem with this is the hardcore players then say:

Quote:
"NOBODY should be able to tell me how much I can play when I'm paying a monthly subscription!"


Basically they will feel as if SE is stealing from them because when they pay for a game they feel they should be able to grind as long as they want. Then they will quit and find annother MMO that gives them what they want.


SE is going to learn the hard way that you can either appeal to casuals or you can appeal to the hardcore. You cannot appeal to both because one necessarily precludes the other.


Edited, Aug 21st 2010 2:07am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#123 Aug 20 2010 at 11:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Its simple, don't penalize players for being on a lot, reward them for not. Like rested exp we see in some form of all mmo's now. It's really just that simple...
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#124 Aug 20 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Its simple, don't penalize players for being on a lot, reward them for not. Like rested exp we see in some form of all mmo's now. It's really just that simple...


Have you ever tried to pass a good idea through a committee? ;)
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#125 Aug 21 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Callinon wrote:
I feel like the major advantage in the retainer system is not the ability to sell through a bazaar, but the ability to buy through one, it's actually the first time I've seen that particular feature and I think it's a really good idea.


I never thought about it this way but that's a really good point. With an AH system and RMT, you're almost forced to buy product from RMT. With the retainer system, you can choose NOT to buy from RMT.
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