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48 Hour cooldown rant.Follow

#1 Aug 19 2010 at 3:45 AM Rating: Default
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It might be wrong but I don't remember reading anywhere that FFXIV was going to be a mainly solo exp game. From what I understood this game was to be like FFXI "but" with more friendly options to those players who couldn't log for long and party as was the norm.

As I understand, this game should still be a "party when you can as it is the most viable way to level up" but if you can't here are a couple things you can do in your limited ammount of time.

The Guildleves were not supposed to be a leveling option, they were in there for people who only had a couple hours to play a day to be able to do something (I still remember that on FFXI I wouldn't look for party unless I had at least 2 hours free).

If I remember or understood this wrong then I'm very sorry but otherwise to all the whining (sp) going on in regards to this issue please shut up.

Guildleves aren't a means to level up, they are a support!
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#2 Aug 19 2010 at 3:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Im not in beta so have no idea but I thought the guild leves were supposed to be casual content while you were waiting to get into a group to static grind like we all did in FFXI.

I never got the impression that they were supposed to be the main way of levelling. More something to do instead of standing around in jeuno doing nothing for 3 hours per day.
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#3 Aug 19 2010 at 4:10 AM Rating: Good
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I have an idea!

Wait until the game is out and you can play it for a few day's before(Ranting)about something you know not so much about yet.

The way I see it if you want to party the way you did or do in ffxi than play in a party if you don't feel like being in a party go solo, do quest or what ever makes you happy.

Point is game isn't out yet and I'm sure there is going to be a crap load of things coming next month that we haven't heard about yet when the full game is out.

#4 Aug 19 2010 at 4:16 AM Rating: Good
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The only thing I can think of is that on release, there will be many, many Guildleves to do therefore the 48hr cooldown will be almost meaningless.

We shall see!
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#5 Aug 19 2010 at 4:21 AM Rating: Default
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Wait until the game is out and you can play it for a few day's before(Ranting)about something you know not so much about yet.

The way I see it if you want to party the way you did or do in ffxi than play in a party if you don't feel like being in a party go solo, do quest or what ever makes you happy.


Ok so maybe I didn't make myself clear, I'm not so much ranting about the 48 Hours cooldown but ranting about all the actual rants about the 48 hour cooldown.

Personally I do not want to be able to spend all day doing leves (quests) by myself, in my opinion this along with easier gameplay will lead to a comunity similar to WoW and I really do not want that to happen.
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#6 Aug 19 2010 at 4:25 AM Rating: Default
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many Guildleves? = Thank you for the offer but I will have to pass.

the most think I love about FFXI is the party system.
#7 Aug 19 2010 at 4:38 AM Rating: Good
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I was under the impression guildleves were how we were supposed to exp, solo and in group. I thought it was a way to make soloing a valid option and at the same time getting away from the mindless grind. I guess I was wrong.

Personally I'd preferr being able to do as many guildleves as I want, because as long as SE makes partying in guildleves a little better than doing them solo I think there would be enough incentive for people to do so since it is more fun and more rewarding at the same time. I don't see why you have to have the "stand at camp and grind" or w/e in order to get people to party.
#8 Aug 19 2010 at 4:45 AM Rating: Good
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From what I've been reading one of the main things that SE is looking at is solo play for the person that want's to play an MMO. But they aren't saying you have to go out and solo it's just an option if you want it.

For me I'm very happy that I will get a chance to solo more but at the sametime I'm not looking for a game like WOW.

But just because I can solo doesn't mean that I will. I have a few friends that are going to be coming over and we plan to party as often as we can.

I'm sure when you and most people had a static party in ffxi you would have times when one of your friends would go get that extra lvl over you and your other group and then you would have to go find another party just to catch up.
Now all you will have to do is go do a few quest or solo to catch up to your friend and keep going.

lol look at me ranting. I'm tired but ummmm yeah have a great day.
#9 Aug 19 2010 at 4:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Guildleves aren't a means to level up, they are a support!


No, they are the means to level up. 48hr cooldown has nothing to do with this.

The best example I can think of is MMM in FFXI. You can only do one run a day, but if you are in a party you can do pretty much as many as you want, as long as there are enough players.

MMM is not a core mechanic in FFXI, but Guildleves will be. The system works similarly, but in a much wider scope. You can do only X number of leves alone, but limitless number of leves as long as you're grouping.

The system is not working correctly yet however because of few issues that still need to be fixed, but 48hr cooldown is not the big problem here. It is a means to make us party, instead of soloing all the time.
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#10 Aug 19 2010 at 5:09 AM Rating: Default
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Guildleves aren't a means to level up, they are a support!

No, they are the means to level up. 48hr cooldown has nothing to do with this.


In my view this is the same as stating that repeatable (nation) quests in FFXI were a means to level up. Of course they would, kill x mobs to get to y so you get x times 150EXP.

This does not mean it was the way to level up, just that is also helped.

If SE releases unlimeted leves at a dificulty which would require a 5, 6 member party then I don't really have a problem as it would end up being a grind with text (just like any other questing). My problem is that just because SE introduced a way for you to do something solo people just cry for the possibility of doing it (solo) all day.
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#11 Aug 19 2010 at 5:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
I was under the impression guildleves were how we were supposed to exp, solo and in group. I thought it was a way to make soloing a valid option and at the same time getting away from the mindless grind. I guess I was wrong.

Personally I'd preferr being able to do as many guildleves as I want, because as long as SE makes partying in guildleves a little better than doing them solo I think there would be enough incentive for people to do so since it is more fun and more rewarding at the same time. I don't see why you have to have the "stand at camp and grind" or w/e in order to get people to party.


No. SE never marketed it as a leveling system. Even everyone's (favorite MMO here) has a "mindless grind"..it's inescapable. It's an MMORPG. They still want people to party up to progress as well and if everyone can solo from start to finish no one will want to party. That quite frankly would make the game boring as **** very quickly because then no one will be sociable at all. It would just be like WoW if you don't get into a guild.

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#12 Aug 19 2010 at 6:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Belcrono wrote:
I was under the impression guildleves were how we were supposed to exp, solo and in group. I thought it was a way to make soloing a valid option and at the same time getting away from the mindless grind. I guess I was wrong.

Personally I'd preferr being able to do as many guildleves as I want, because as long as SE makes partying in guildleves a little better than doing them solo I think there would be enough incentive for people to do so since it is more fun and more rewarding at the same time. I don't see why you have to have the "stand at camp and grind" or w/e in order to get people to party.


No. SE never marketed it as a leveling system. Even everyone's (favorite MMO here) has a "mindless grind"..it's inescapable. It's an MMORPG. They still want people to party up to progress as well and if everyone can solo from start to finish no one will want to party. That quite frankly would make the game boring as **** very quickly because then no one will be sociable at all. It would just be like WoW if you don't get into a guild.


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#13 Aug 19 2010 at 6:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Belcrono wrote:
I was under the impression guildleves were how we were supposed to exp, solo and in group. I thought it was a way to make soloing a valid option and at the same time getting away from the mindless grind. I guess I was wrong.

Personally I'd preferr being able to do as many guildleves as I want, because as long as SE makes partying in guildleves a little better than doing them solo I think there would be enough incentive for people to do so since it is more fun and more rewarding at the same time. I don't see why you have to have the "stand at camp and grind" or w/e in order to get people to party.


No. SE never marketed it as a leveling system. Even everyone's (favorite MMO here) has a "mindless grind"..it's inescapable. It's an MMORPG. They still want people to party up to progress as well and if everyone can solo from start to finish no one will want to party. That quite frankly would make the game boring as **** very quickly because then no one will be sociable at all. It would just be like WoW if you don't get into a guild.


As for the idea that guildleves were there to exp I guess is something I just misunderstood.

About there having to be a grind I am not sure I agree. First of all yes, even if I get a small text saying "go kill 5 rats" it is still grinding, but for me it is more fun. So basically there are different degrees of grind. FFXI was very grindy in that respect and WoW is less grindy. Both are of course grinds, but personally I think the more story and that type of involvement I get the less grindy it becomes (or feels). Looking at SWTOR it does look like they think the same and for me if they have a solid storyline from level 1 through max(w/e that may be) it won't be a grind. Here I guess the question is if they manage to keep this aspect without making it feel like a single player game.

Looking at XIV and the guildleve system I did think this meant we would have a lesser degree of the grind at least and I thought that was part of why they implemented the system. Like I said, I suppose I was wrong, but I can't say that is a nice surprise, on the contrary it feels like a choice to stay in the past instead of trying to move forward and improve the mmo genre (ie getting away from the grind as much as possible). Of course it doesn't seem like SE agrees with me, they seem to want the grind and I guess some people enjoy it, but personally I'd prefer to get away from it if possible.

As for the party vs solo I agree, I think soloing from level one to cap is boring, where we don't agree is the idea that if it is possible to solo everyone will do it. I think there is a balance, if it is equally good then yes probably a lot of people will choose the solo route because it is easier, but if there are several perks to partying, like a bit faster exp, greater rewards etc, I honestly think most people would party whenever they have time for it.

Either way though, I am looking forward to it all like crazy and I can't wait to try it out with my friends.

Edited, Aug 19th 2010 8:31am by Belcrono
#14 Aug 19 2010 at 7:46 AM Rating: Default
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I didn't really go to extreme but ... let's get an example:

Grind Vs Quest Grind

You have one player that is camping and killing rats, every rat he kills he gets some experience.

Then you have another player who was asked by a NPC to kill rats so he came to the same spot, killed the same rats and went back to the NPC to complete the quest and get more experience than the one awarded from killing the rats.

What is this experience from? Walking from point A to B. So you have walked further and longer, does that mean your better at your class? No. IMO you should get experience/skill points from actually playing your class.

Solo Vs Multiplayer

I need only to bring out the WoW card. Since people were able to solo for most of the game that is what they did, I don't think people really tryed to get a balanced group together to go to a higher area and kills mobs there. The only reason you would group was to get some milestone equipment and even so there were some people who would just play with "greens" till almost endgame.

Recap:

Should you get extra experience from running about receiving and delivering quests? No
Does that help to sift out immature, looking for easy pickings kind of player? Yes, even better.
Should it be possible to solo some of the content? Depends how much.
Should there be better bonuses to those playing in parties? Yes, this is a Multiplayer game.

As the only MMORPGs that I played to any length of time I tend to compare FFXI and WoW alot and the most striking memory I have is that due to the willingness of Blizzard to recapitulate to any and all pressure from it's playerbase World of Warcraft became a game with the same dificulty level of Tetris (everyone knows how to, the great majority can't play it well) with an age average group of Pokemon.
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#15 Aug 19 2010 at 7:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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I agree that it shouldn't be too easy, I want some challenges in the game. Don't agree on your recap there though. People that want to be a lone wolf should be able to accomplish a lot that way. It shouldn't be easy though. Also multiplayer does not mean there must be team work. It just means there are others in the game world with you. Often meaning every man for himself.

So that's a big negative on...
Quote:
Should there be better bonuses to those playing in parties? Yes, this is a Multiplayer game.


Apparently what they have now is off and needs some balancing, but if they go to the extreme opposite with mega bonuses for partying to make that group happy, then the soloers will be making complaints like this.

Edited, Aug 19th 2010 9:58am by TwistedOwl
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#16 Aug 19 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Apparently what they have now is off and needs some balancing, but if they go to the extreme opposite with mega bonuses for partying to make that group happy, then the soloers will be making complaints like this.


That's inevitable.

Still, I'd rather have soloers make those complaints than groupers. There's more than enough solo games out there and will be in the future too. XIV can be the exception.
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#17 Aug 19 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Decent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
I agree that it shouldn't be too easy, I want some challenges in the game. Don't agree on your recap there though. People that want to be a lone wolf should be able to accomplish a lot that way. It shouldn't be easy though. Also multiplayer does not mean there must be team work. It just means there are others in the game world with you. Often meaning every man for himself.

So that's a big negative on...
Quote:
Should there be better bonuses to those playing in parties? Yes, this is a Multiplayer game.


Apparently what they have now is off and needs some balancing, but if they go to the extreme opposite with mega bonuses for partying to make that group happy, then the soloers will be making complaints like this.

Edited, Aug 19th 2010 9:58am by TwistedOwl


Yeah, then the game becomes a recluse heaven. If you can solo to end-game and more you'll never want to party or do things in groups because you can solo so..why would you? It happened with WoW for the majority of the game..it shouldn't happen in XIV, people generally played MMOs to play with others..and I don't think running around doing everything solo and occasionally saying hi to bob that you pass by is playing together.

Lone wolves are fine and all..but that's pretty much forcing a playstyle onto people who actually like to group which is why SE created the leve system, for the casual gamers and those who dislike being with people/rather play solo. As long as solo doesn't take you very far (e.g end-game styled content can be soloable nor can you progress at the same speed as you would if you partied) it could probably coexist easily.
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#18 Aug 19 2010 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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I agree that the soloers should be the ones in the minority for the game. I'm not saying to throw them to the side and ONLY focus on party play, but realistically I think the party aspect is a BIG reason why a lot of people want to play 14. I know it was one of the best parts about ffxi (not the waiting mind you, the actual partying). I have a feeling SE will get it pretty close to correct by the time the game comes out, and give it a final tweak for the first couple of months. I am fully confident that this game will be pretty well balanced by release because I think it is one of the areas SE knows is crucial to their success.

Edited, Aug 19th 2010 10:08am by BartelX
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#19 Aug 19 2010 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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I guess I do kind of agree with you guys then, just didn't explain myself well. I hinted at it when I said it shouldn't be easy to just solo to end-game. And a lot of this is seeing how out of balance it is in beta & then worrying how it will be at release. I do think it'll have a better balance eventually...but multiplayer doesn't equal "must use teamwork" and they've made it a point to make this one more solo-friendly than XI. So they have to keep that in mind as well...
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#20 Aug 19 2010 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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So that's a big negative on...
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Should there be better bonuses to those playing in parties? Yes, this is a Multiplayer game.


So do you expect to have the same benefits between solo and party play and still not have a great majority of the players going solo?

It would be great is people would choose to group up and interact just for the fun of it but from my experience it just doesn't happen. Even in FFXI how many people did you see leveling as a party with a level below 10?

If the benefits are the same 80% of the players (if not more) will just solo instead of party.
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#21 Aug 19 2010 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
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So that's a big negative on...
Quote:

Quote:
Should there be better bonuses to those playing in parties? Yes, this is a Multiplayer game.


So do you expect to have the same benefits between solo and party play and still not have a great majority of the players going solo?


Heh, probably should have just left that part out. That was me being nitpicky on your choice of words. Just because it's multiplayer doesn't mean people should be forced to party or forced not to party. It all comes back to that question of balance...

EDIT
As for the rest, when I say it shouldn't be easy to solo to end-game...I still think they should be able to go far, but yeah...probably not at the same pace as parties, and with the difficulty scaling up pretty high. I'll give ya that. So really only some of the best, hardcore soloers could pull off certain things later in the game. And it would become one **** of an accomplishment rather than something anyone could do. Funny thing about this whole balance issue is that most people's definition of balance leans heavily towards what they prefer, I'm probably guilty of that too...

Edited, Aug 19th 2010 10:44am by TwistedOwl
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#22 Aug 19 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
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As for the rest, when I say it shouldn't be easy to solo to end-game...I still think they should be able to go far, but yeah...probably not at the same pace as parties, and with the difficulty scaling up pretty high. I'll give ya that. So really only some of the best, hardcore soloers could pull off certain things later in the game. And it would become one **** of an accomplishment rather than something anyone could do. Funny thing about this whole balance issue is that most people's definition of balance leans heavily towards what they prefer, I'm probably guilty of that too...


Completelly agree with you here, now we can be friends ;/

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Should it be possible to solo some of the content? Depends how much.
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#23 Aug 19 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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As a background, my first MMORPG was FFXI. I am a huge fan of the Final Fantasy series and it was primarily to my experience with FFIX. What I really enjoyed most was storyline and world immersion. The more drawn into the characters and storyline the less "grindy" everything seemed.

FFXI I thought had serious promise with the storyline and immersion. The problem was it did not understand how lifestyles can change over time. There were so many artificial almost non-sensical road blocks to advance in the content and as my playtime would ebb I found it harder and harder to overcome these obstacles. Between travel; level spreads; finding good XP camps; inventory control; making money; adequately equipping your character, fitting it into my playtime windows; even with a great Linkshell, I fell further and further behind. And as I realized I'd be more dependent on others playing on my schedule, I just could not continue.

On to WOW, which fit my lifestyle more readily. They made all the 'incidentals' much easier. The logistics, travel, and with cross-realm instance finders you can group really easily from Level 15 onward. As such, I think they swung the pendulum way too far the other way in that I feel no link with my character, the world, or its history or lore. And forcing new "toons" for each job even further reduces that for me.

What I hope we can get to with FFXIV, is a way to keep the immersion factor. I hope to become a 'resident' of Eorzea and fascinated with its history, lore and culture. I hope they provide incentives for group activities but then don't turn around and make it absurdly difficult to get into groups. AND I hope the Leve activities are provided so if you don't have time to organize a group you can still make some progression rather than sitting in "LFP" mode. If SE can strike this kind of balance, I think they could have something really special.
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#24 Aug 19 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Default
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Personally when playing FFXI I felt that unless I had 2 hours (minimum) free I shouldn't look for party, between finding one (specially as a THF) getting to camp and start fighting you should be able to at least stay with your party for an hour.

Now assuming the same thing can be said for FFXIV you have the oportunity to log in, get you leves and hopefully ask other players if they want to accompany you. As most beta testers have said this should take you around 2 hours to complete.

If the same thing happens the following day and you only have a couple hours available you can then look into crafting or hope that other people got their leves and are also looking for more people to do it with them.

If the same thing happens the next day then you have your own leves available so is just a rinse and repeat.

If you can afford to stay online for longer then you should be ok with LFP and doing more time intensive content, be it story driven, loot driven or just grind for EXP.
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#25 Aug 19 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Might as well post this here. This was posted by Loaar on the EU Beta forums...

Quote:
First off, let me get some facts about leves out there:

1. There are 3 types of leves; Regional (Combat and Gathering), Local (Crafting) and Faction leves
2. Regional and Local leves do not share the same lockout. You can have 8 regional and 8 local leves in the same 48 hour period.
3. Leves award 4 possible things: Gil or Guild Marks (but not both), Items (about 1/3 of leves offer items), and Faction Points.
4. Doing leves on higher difficulty settings awards you more guild marks and more faction points, so grouping up to do your leves on higher settings means access to those rewards faster.
5. Of all the rewards, you can only gain gil from helping others. Items, marks and faction points are not awarded to you for doing other peoples leves.
6. While the amount of personal leves you can do is limited, you can participate in as many leves as you like by grouping up with other people.

I also think the 48 hour cooldown on leves is a good idea in the overall scheme of things (see explanation below). If you have a linkshell thats not full of greedy people, or you actively group up with others, you can easily have leves to do more or less as often as you like.

Leves were not a decent source of skill and exp in the alpha, the beta 1 or 2, or now in beta phase 3. For the first 4 days of phase 3, leves granted bonus skill ups and exp, but SE patched it out. Leves right now are comparable (or marginally better) than solo/partying outside of leves.

SE are clearly still trying to find a happy medium for leveling speed, and trying out various things to encourage people to group up for leves.

Due to the fact that leveling inside leves has only been better for 4 days out of 5 months of testing though, I very much doubt that leves are supposed to be our primary source of skill and exp. They are most certainly not the only source of skill and exp in the game, even with the limited access/content we have.

I do however think leves are supposed to be our primary method of progression.



There is a difference there, I'll explain.



Every MMO in existence creates a divide between the hardcore and casual players almost instantly, simply due to the amount of time each type of player plays for.

You can get exp/skill doing pretty much anything. You can get money doing pretty much anything. There really isn't any way around this. Hardcore no-lifers will level faster, and earn more money in general.

Where SE can limit it (and have), is how often people can access the content that allows people to progress their character.

At this stage, we know of two ways to "progress" your character. You can get faction leves that offer better rewards, and will, at least initially, be the primary source of endgame content.

The second way is via guild marks, which allow you to purchase upgraded skills and traits that help grow your character.

Both these systems can only be accessed via the guildleves. So, even though someone with more time can level faster and accrue more cross class skills and money, they can't obtain marks to buy new skills/traits or get faction leves any faster than someone who plays daily, but for considerably less hours.

This means that your hardcore gamers will likely be a bit more effective with their class (more cross class skills), be slightly better geared (more time to craft or more money to buy crafted gear with), which means they can probably do the highest difficulty rating on harder leves with less people. Alternatively they might earn slightly better rewards if you need to be better geared and skilled to do the highest rating on the endgame leves.

But, despite being more effective, they can't get marks much faster, nor faction points much faster, which means the playing field is much more level. To the hardcore gamer, who may feel entitled to progress at twice the speed, it might sound terrible, but the vast majority of subs will be casuals. More subs = more money and more active servers = money to put back into content = more fun for everyone.



Some cons for lowering the leve timers:

* The entire progression system is balanced around it. SE didn't arbitrarily pick 48 hours, they want to balance how fast you get access to skills/traits and the rewards from faction leves. Lowering the timer, even to 24 hours, would mean they would need to lower the rewards as well. This may seem fine, but it now means you need to do twice as many personal leves to get access to the same amount of faction points and marks. The higher you get, the harder the leves become and the longer they take to complete. Do you want to have to spend 8 hours every night doing leves with your linkshell just to get marks and faction points? When do you have time to do anything else?
* People with more time on thier hands will be able to complete all their leves AND level other jobs AND craft. The gap between haves and have nots will grow very rapidly.




Also, the fact that endgame is tied into the leve system is also a great thing.

Consider this:

In FFXI, if you want to run Limbus, with a 3 day lockout timer, and you want to do it twice a week, your limited to picking two days a week (about 3 days apart) that your forever locked into.

If you want to run the FFXIV version (probably not the same thing, but something endgame), the lockouts are based on your faction points. Which means, assuming you can earn enough points to run the content twice a week, you can do it when your ready to.

Don't have time to run endgame content during the week? No worries, since you can save your faction points, just two lots of endgame faction leves over the weekend.

Its endgame content on your schedule, not something dictated by things outside your control.


Discuss!


In regards to the big picture, I agree.
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#26 Aug 19 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Might as well post this here. This was posted by Loaar on the EU Beta forums...


thanks for posting that. It sounds alot better when put into context by someone in beta.
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#27 Aug 19 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Just want to thank Hyanmen for the most in depth information I personally have seen in regarding to leves.
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#28 Aug 19 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Might as well post this here. This was posted by Loaar on the EU Beta forums...



Thanks! Great info. I figured that this was the reasoning behind the timer... and the fact that I will be playing more casually most of the time made me not worry about the cooldown really at all. I think it is brilliant for SE to implement a system that evens out the playing field between casual players and non-casual players without nerfing the content. This way there is progression for everyone and, yes, of course, more progression for those who have more time to put in... but someone who can only play for an hour or so most evenings won't feel like there isn't any point in playing at all.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


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